Judge Demands Details Of FBI's Keylogger 148
wb8foz writes: "EPIC is reporting that Judge Politan has told the FBI to come up with details on the keystroke logger they used against Scarfo. Previously, the FBI claimed the technology was so Zuper-seKret that telling anyone how it worked would threaten 'national security'..."
If not a wiretap then what? (Score:1)
Simple Measure Against Physical Keylogger (Score:3, Interesting)
It occurs that a simple measure against a keylogger is to run a program which continuously polls the keyboard, making note of any occasion during which the keyboard is unavailable (or during which the computer has not been functioning, meaning it's been turned off), and which gives alarm to the user just before he begins work after having gone for some time. (Detection of this absence could be automated with a cheap fuzzy vision system that only checks for warmth in front of the monitor, and for motion indicative of a human and not a cat or very warm chair).
The electricity bill from leaving a computer on all the time (as would be necessary), and the cost of a reliable uninterruptable power system, would be a small price to pay in such cases where the owner has reason to worry about spying and the implantation of such sneaky devices.
The aim generally would be to make the computer an integrated, always-functioning system that "knows" when oddities occur, such as being turned off, or losing the keyboard, or being moved more than a few millimeters, or anything else that could be interpreted as tampering (when the authorized user is absent, obviously).
Naturally, this measure works against hardware spying only. Software spying is another matter, but the hardware is the first and most important line of defense.
Re:Simple Measure Against Physical Keylogger (Score:2, Interesting)
Example functionality:
Install internally to computer case (as most bugs will be placed externally to reduce risk of being caught)
When you start typing on the keyboard the device will indicate whether or not the keyboard was detached since you last typed.
It could give warning in several ways:
eg: audiable alarm when it has been detached.
OR output "WARNING KEYBOARD DETACHED" to the ps/2 interface (so it gets typed on screen). This would be a good time to check out your keyboard and/or cable.
You can monitor the cable by checking the voltage can flow through the +5v and GND lines of the port.
You could power the monitor continuously via the WakeOnLAN power connectors on modern motherboards, and a backup battery if necessary (Though I'd just make it default to a warning if power lost).
This can be easily achieved with PIC microcontroller or similiar, and easily fit inside a matchbox.
Obviously there are counter tactics that can be used against it, and counter-counter-tactics, hmm since I was already building a computer alarm (functionality similiar to a car alarm) I think I might add this feature.
NB: This is a detector only, not prevention.
Re:Simple Measure Against Physical Keylogger (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Simple Measure Against Physical Keylogger (Score:1, Informative)
The physical methods you mention for securing a computer while absent on the other hand are much more fascinating.
You can, in fact, make the whole thing provably secure by having your computer send constant image data to an off-shore server, where you have a second means of connecting to the server and ensuring that THE SERVER thinks there has never been any interruption in the broadcast, nor movement of any kind. [Needless to say, although perhaps I ought to anyhow, there is a secure connection between your computer and the server, which means that any man-in-the-middle attack would have to sniff out the session key from RAM, and you can't do that without getting physically near the machine, by which time it has seen you...or else noticed a lack of transmission.]Of course, you don't keep the passphrased private key on premises, and of course it's not in memory at the time that your computer is running in your absence. (There is, let us say a GPG'd/pgp'd partition that, when you get home, you expect to access by putting in your private key on disk, typing your passphrase, and thereby activating your 'secret' partition). If you have any reason to suspect your computer has been tampered with, then you simply remove the encrypted hard-drive and move it to a clean machine. You're a mafioso, you have plenty of new machines. Thereby, you circumvent any possible hardware and software pre-installed sniffers.
Somebody please educate me (Score:1)
Re:Somebody please educate me (Score:1)
Re:Somebody please educate me (Score:1)
Gobbledygook explained (Score:1)
Isn't The Law great? I have to look into publishing legal documents for their entertainment value...
Hardware Keylogger secret??? (Score:3, Interesting)
A hardware keylogger can be implemented by a student of electrical engineering or any gifted amateur in perhaps a week or so. Typically a PIC microcontroller would be used together with an external serial EEPROM. With e.g. 64KByte EEPROM this would cost about 10 Euro per device and be the size of a sugar cube. The programmer hardware would cost an additional 10 Euro, software is available for free. Larger EEPROMs require a bit more work (maybe an additional day), and are physically larger (2 sugar cubes). Price would be an additional 15 Euro for e.g. 512Kbyte.
And if you don't know how to build your own, you can buy them here [dansdata.com].
Re:Hardware Keylogger secret??? (Score:2, Informative)
And if you hide them inside the keyboard or inside the PC they are difficult to find.
Scanner (Score:3, Interesting)
Its all very clever.
Weevil
hardware key loggers (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:hardware key loggers (Score:1)
subseven (Score:1)
I've actually caught one attempt to hit that port by a
They gave the judge a bunch of keycodes.... (Score:4, Interesting)
Once the FBI gives the judge a table of keycodes -> keys, I suspect the judge's "gobbledegook" comment will be answered. Now, the question is, will the judge accept the keystroke recorder as a part of a valid search warrent, or will the judge interpret the device to be a "listening device".
Remember, the whole danger of this device is not that it exists, it is that the FBI went in on a search warrent, and left a listening device behind which should require a wiretap order.
Super secret keylogger... (Score:2, Informative)
Threat to national security, right.
Classified to avoid embarrassment... (Score:4, Interesting)
The Government's penchant to hide everthing they do from the citizenry is insidious. How about requiring the President to personally sign each and every individual page of every single "National Security" classified document. That would certainly help cut down this effrontery of abuse, eventually. Classification by default is an insult to the intelligence and political franchise of the American people!
When are people going to get angry about being lied to and abused in the name of holy national security? The Cold War has been over for a long time now. Is this a police state or a republic? Can anyone tell the difference anymore? Please tell me; I really do care.
Re:Classified to avoid embarrassment... (Score:1)
Wire Tap? (Score:1)
BO2K for the FBI (Score:3, Funny)
Oh no. Did I give away FBI's secret?!
Hmm. This was supposed to be funny. I guess it actually makes a limited amount of sense. How sad.
Re:BO2K for the FBI (Score:1)
How to annoy people keylogging you (keyghost) (Score:3, Interesting)
This would really annoy someone. At first glance, someone will say "this device just recorded garbage!". Of course, anyone who really wanted you bad would pass some statistical analysis through it, so if you suspect you are being tracked, do a lot of perl programming. The prevalence of %!(!@%$(!@*% will throw off the %'s
Step #2, USB!
Glad to use an Apple G4 at the moment (OS X!). Keyghost says:
* (MacOS & USB keyboards not currently supported).
Keep this in mind, though I'm sure it will be rectified in the near future. Of course, they could just stick a convertor behind your machine and hope you don't notice -- so buy a machine without a PS/2 or AT keyboard port.
Step #3, Kinesis
They sell a cute KeyGhost Security Keyboard, that looks like a natural keyboard of sorts. Insist on a Kinesis keyboard at work! Not only are these great keyboards, but when your boss (or FBI at home) see the keyboard, they will really say to themselves.. "huh?".
That, and you can get the QD model like I do with the dual dvorak/qwerty caps just to mess with their heads more.
Step #4, Run a less popular OS & Architecture
This one is primarily for software key loggers. If your in trouble with the law, the best way to play with them is to work harder. Like for firewalls, one of the best ways to keep yourself a little more secure is to use a less-common OS & architecture.
If you say, use a Sun Ultra at home (without USB), running preferably solaris, but insert any OS here. I'm sure they will have some choice swear words when they see that your mouse plugs into your keyboard, and your keyboard
That and, I'd be likely to say that they don't run into many Sun workstations to sniff via software either, but feel free to run NetBSD on your Sun just to make them recompile it anyways.
I myself ran on a Sun Ultra 10 at home till I sold it for this dual G4. They can be somewhat palatable workstations.
Step #5, serial:
If you really want to mess with their heads, set the machine up to have video output, but take serial input. Get an old dumb terminal out, put it on the other side of the desk, and pump in some text.
When they come in a few weeks later and wonder why the keyboard plugged into your PS/2 port didn't log anything, they may wonder what the heck is going on.
And somehow I doubt they've got a nise Wyse compatible keyboard logger anyways.
Enough silly ideas, time to go back to sleep.
Re:How to annoy people keylogging you (keyghost) (Score:2)
A Free Link (Score:1)
Another FBI marvel... (Score:1, Funny)
In analyzing the data received from the laptops, it is obvious that some sort of high-tech encryption has been used, since none of the information obtained contains any human-readable content. A snippet of the data used to control this high-tech tracking mechanism was released to the press earlier today. The following line from the logs seems to control this amazing new tracking technology:
c:\msdos\tracert.exe
Something Similar (Score:1)
We just used to set it on scan to see if any of the kids were looking at porn, if they were, we'd pop up a message on their screen and freak them out!
It would also tell you how many WPM the admin staff were doing, so we'd place bets on who was doing the most. Stopped this when we started deliberatly messing with them to try and win!
Not so fast (Score:4, Insightful)
This means that the Judge wants to see for himself exactly how the FBI device thing works. (The original government description was "gobbledegook".) From the rest of the order, however, it sounds to me like that the Judge does not believe a communications intercept has occured unless the FBI overheard Scarfo talking via a modem or other Internet connection.
In other words, IMHO it appears that the Judge is actually leaning against Scarfo, but doesn't quite understand the technology enough to make a decision. Remember, the law very narrowly defines a "communication" when talking about wiretapping...
Re:Not so fast (Score:2)
What happened at Roswell?
Who killed Kennedy?
How many licks does it take to get to the middle of a tootsie pop?
etc...
Re:Not so fast(OT) (Score:1)
Re:Not so fast (Score:1)
Mayor Daley of Chicago, who created thousands of votes to give him the White House. Sorta like Jeb and Shrub.
(Hey, it's as logical as anything Oliver Stone ever proposed)
Oh brother! (Score:4, Informative)
On the very FIRST PAGE is this link [amecisco.com] to what appears to be what we're talking about.
3 Minutes, $80, how much did we pay for the FBI version?
-Ben
PS: Is it just me or has /. gotten SLOOOWW these past few weeks?
super secret keylogger indeed (Score:5, Funny)
Scarfo: "Shit, what's this little icon in the corner...I've never seen that before."
FBI #1: "Damnit, he's onto us! Pull the plug!"
FBI #2: "No! It's okay. We embedded it into the Virtual Vixen (tm?) EXE. He'll play with it all day and never figure it out."
Scarfo: "Oh wow, when did I get this? This is great!"
FBI #1 and #2 simultaneously: "MUA HA HA HA"
Re:super secret keylogger indeed (Score:1)
It's right here somewhere... (Score:5, Funny)
Speculation time. How does it work? (Score:5, Interesting)
The way I see it, the keylogger could either be a software or hardware device. It may require that an agent break into the Bad Guy's premises to install the bug. Then again it may not...
If it was a software device, it would probably be some sort of virus or trojan horse that would sit silently & log keystrokes, and transmit them to the FBI at periodic intervals. There are the issues of compatibility - there are over a dozen different varieties of Windows in general use, as well as Linux, BeOS, BSD, etc. That would require multiple versions of the software, all carefully crafted to hide itself from anyone from a casual luser to an experienced computer security expert (what the FBI likes to refer to as a "hacker".) Somewhere along the line it would probably be detected and deactivated.
The hardware approach has the advantage of being OS neutral, and there are only a few varieties of keyboard interfaces that need to be handled. The device could be hidden inside the keyboard, which would require the agent to physically disassemble the keyboard to install the device. This would take a lot of time, and have several risks: The agent could be caught in the act, which is made more likely by the extra time taking the keyboard apart. Also, the agent could break the keyboard, which would make the Bad Guys aware that something suspicious was happening.
Putting the device inside the computer would be easier - most computers are designed to be opened & serviced with little more than a screwdriver. However, the agent still has to spend time disassembling & reassembling equipment, with risk of breaking the computer or being caught and subject to Great Unpleasantness. Putting the bug outside of the computer (glued to the underside of the desk or attached to a cable) would be too easy to detect, especially when dealing with Evil Russian Hackerz(TM).
The best way would be to use a bakery van full of TEMPEST gear to listen to the stray signals coming from the computer. The gear would be able to listen to keystrokes, as well as record everything that is displayed on the computer's screen. I suspect the feds don't want this revealed because then the Bad Guys could send thugs to kill the agents in the van, then they would be able to play with all the neat toys inside and come up with countermeasures.
secret Windows feature (Score:1)
Well, this is supposed to be funny, but now I wonder whether it's joke or paranoia.
Re:Speculation time. How does it work? (Score:2)
Embed a bit of non-volatile RAM in the keyboard controller chip. To retrieve the data, seize the keyboard, desolder the chip, and apply TTL to pins that are grounded when the keyboard controller chip is still soldered to the keyboard. Totally undetectable, and it could be done at the factory to every keyboard shipped.
The privacy of Joe Average is "maintained" the the fact that Joe's keyboard is rarely seized. Just make sure NSA doesn't use these keyboards.
I dub the idea "bugboards", and anyone who patents it has to deal with this Slashdot post constituting prior art.)
To the tinfoil hat crowd: With a suitably large clandestine payment to Winbond, "they" could have been doing this to a good 30-40% (if not higher) of the keyboards in existence for the past 3-4 years. Save your original PC/AT keyboards!
My personal speculation: If it's a hardware device, it's a Keyghost, possibly installed inside the keyboard. (Yes, if I were a Mafioso, I would check the keyboard port as part of a daily sweep for bugs. But I probably wouldn't grab a screwdriver and inspect the keyboard's guts.)
Re:Speculation time. How does it work? (Score:1)
The device could be hidden inside the keyboard, which would require the agent to physically disassemble the keyboard to install the device.
So use a Sun. Unpleasant and obvious things happen if a keyboard's pulled and reconnected...
Re:Speculation time. How does it work? (Score:1)
You assume the Sun is running while the keyboard is modified. There is acertain risk in disconnecting a keyboard from a running PC as well (but it is doable). The main difference is that a Sun will usually be continously running (and might have a long boot time), while the PC is usually switched off. The problem of disassembling a PC keyboard (or a Sun keyboard) while it is still plugged into a running system however is pretty small and this is an option for installation on a running Sun
Re:Speculation time. How does it work? (Score:2)
Theoretically though, your keyboard emits a signal (albeit through a cable) back to your computer. If you had something sensitive enough, could you not trap those signals and record them? No encryption to worry about, no sniffing on the network or packets to deal with, just pure, raw data from the source!
Re:Speculation time. How does it work? (Score:2)
No sh*t. If I were to come home and find someone breaking my computer--or really, just in my home--he'd be subjected to Great Unpleasantness to the nth degree. Where nth degree is defined as multiple .22 in. holes in his head. When did the US sink so low as to allow pigs to break into a man's home--his castle--and listen to his private conversations? I know that it's been going on for a long time; I just wish it were legal to retaliate. If we could issue pigs speeding tickets, or fire on them, or even scream obscenities at them without being arrested, it'd be nice. They are such despicable uentermenschen.
Re:Speculation time. How does it work? (Score:3, Insightful)
The issue here is not, Are there any circumstances under which the government has a compelling issue in obtaining evidence by wiretap, bug, or whatever? The issue is, how high should the bar be set? How hard should it be for the government to show such need?
The FBI argues that this is not a wiretap and so it meets low standards. The defendant holds that it was a wiretap and hence needed a specific warrant to be placed.
People like to cast these things as black-and-white: Either the government can't bug us, and we are totally free; or the government can, and we are entirely enslaved. Unfortunately for such extremists, history has always been more nuanced: The American judicial system always works on the principle of balances and tensions. What's important is to set the price of such invasions so high that they be used only in the most extreme, most justifiable conditions.
This case is, in large part, not about the technology that is used but about the accountability of those who use it.
Re:Speculation time. How does it work? (Score:1)
Re:Speculation time. How does it work? (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:Speculation time. How does it work? (Score:1)
Re:Speculation time. How does it work? (Score:1)
Hell, even a regular keyghost would probably go unnoticed until he happened to look behind the computer. I'm fairly security aware, and I strip and rebuild my systems as often as a typical hacker, but I don't go checking for key loggers every time I type in my pass phrase.
Re:Speculation time. How does it work? (Score:1)
They could have swapped the keyboard with an identical model that had a keyghost [keyghost.com] or similar device installed. I'm sure that at least 99 out of 100 people wouldn't be able to tell the difference, as long as the keyboard is less than ~6 months old, and doesn't have any identifying cracks/marks. By doing this, they would greatly reduce the time needed to install the device.
Re:Speculation time. How does it work? (Score:1)
I dare anyone reading this to tip their keyboard on its side and give the back of it a few whacks. If it isn't unnaturally clean or been recently cleaned, your keyboard hasn't been swapped. Of course this doesn't mean your harddrive is free from SnoopWare.
Re:Speculation time. How does it work? (Score:1)
Hmm... my keyboard is a mess.
Re:Speculation time. How does it work? (Score:1)
Yes, so what? It is easy to open keyboards. On the other hand there is usually no need to so and nobody (except the curious, like me) does it. With portable soldering equipment the installation of a bug like this takes 5 minutes, just attach 5 (or was it 4?) wires.
This is not difficult! If the keyboard type is knowen in advance the agent doing the installation can practice before and get the time down even further. The wires can also be clipped on for a traceless later removal.
However the best job would be to hide the additional components so that they are not easy to find. This could be done by mounting the additional SMD EEPROM and, e.g., PIC microcontroller, below the original microprocessor, maybe even in holes cut into its case. This would need a very careful inspection to detect it.
Of course the perfect job would be to get some hardware manufacturer to hide the additional chips in the casing of the keyboard microcontroller. Then only destructive search would have a chance of detecting it. Or relable a microcontroller with the same casing and the additional functionality to resemble the keyboard controller.
Re:Speculation time. How does it work? (Score:2)
They did it with the desk lamp in the opener of Season 3 of The Soprano's and I believe everything I see on TV...
Re:Speculation time. How does it work? (Score:1)
When's the last time you looked at your keyboard cable? Or noticed if your keyboard got a little cleaner, almost like new?
Re:Speculation time. How does it work? (Score:2)
There was a
Re:Speculation time. How does it work? (Score:4, Interesting)
I don't know about the exact adapter the FBI was using, but I have researched keyboards for emulation projects (hacking a keyboard to get many possible inputs, etc).
Most keyboards have a "grid" made of two rows of wires, to simply put it, a horizontal row, and a vertical row (which isn't exactly true, but is very close to how it works). When you press a button, you close the circuit between one of the vertical rows and one of the horizontal rows. Now this is sent to a small circuit in the keyboard that is basically a decoder chip, that tranfers the specific horizontal row/vertical row combination into a key. This small circuit is usually on a circuit board, and is custom to each type of keyboard. So far, we are finding it difficult to put a keystroke logger into the keyboard. However, the decoder circuit is hooked up to the cable that sends it to the computer. There are either 5 or 6 wires used (I believe 5, one is extra), and there is enough space inside most motherboards that it would be possible to put a small circuit in it. All you need to do is to tap into the wires inside of the keyboard and you have a bug that can install in a few minutes, and is undetectable unless you take the keyboard apart.
Then again, I see other posters talking about an adapter that fits on the end of the plug, in the back of the computer, which would work, but is an inelegant, and very easily found solution. Inside the computer would work also, but would have to interface to the back of the ps/2 adapter, or to motherboard traces, and I'm guessing the grounded case would hinder transmissions of signals. OTOH, cases are easier to take apart, and there is usually a lot more space.
Re:Speculation time. How does it work? (Score:1)
Re:Speculation time. How does it work? (Score:1)
My bad. I haven't looked at them for awhile, I was recalling this entirely from memory.
USB Keyboards would only have 4 wires, ground, hot, data+ and data-. If USB Keyboards all work in the same way (which I'm assuming, since BIOSes have an USB Keyboard option, so it doesn't appear as if they need seperate drivers) then what I said about AT and PS/2 keyboards also holds true for USB keyboards.
Now, for the off-topic part of this:
What my plans are to do (probably over this boring Minnesota winter) is to get an old cocktail style arcade machine, gut it, throw in a stripped computer monitor and a hacked case to support a motherboard, and then take a keyboard splitting circuit (available on the net), and plug a regular keyboard in it, for maintainance, and the other end will go to a specially made circuit, home-etched, created by stealing the design/encoder from an existing keyboard, so I don't have to pay $100+ for Happ's solution. Since the keyboards I've examined have a small (about 2" x 4") circuit board, and runs the input grid on two sheets of plastic, I can examine the circuit board to remake the circuits, and trace the grid for the button press info. Other fun parts of this project include hacking a mouse to be a trackball (arcade style), and breaking apart a cheap joystick for an analog controller, or else making one from scratch. Oh, and probably going with DOS for the OS, since its MAME friendly, although Linux would work, with a few patches for a journelling filesystem. :)
Re:Speculation time. How does it work? (Score:1)
My guess it that its software.
A probably a replacement for the windows keyboard driver. If you run BSD, I think the spooks are out of luck.
Re:Speculation time. How does it work? (Score:1)
Re:Speculation time. How does it work? (Score:1)
C. M. Burns
Re:Speculation time. How does it work? (Score:1)
Re:Speculation time. How does it work? (Score:1)
Re:Speculation time. How does it work? (Score:1)
Hey! (Score:1)
Since when is
Your comment is really funny tho. Here, let me continue it:
Scarfo's 9 year old son: Hey, daddy, what's that icon with the FBI logo on it?
Scarfo: Uh, it's a buisiness spreadsheet database locator accessory. Don't touch it.
Kid: You mean it's where you keep your porn?
Scarfo *thwaps head* Damn kids. Only bad people look at porn, son. I'm not a bad person.
FBI Agents (together): Yeeaahhh riiighhht....
Kid: Oh, ok, so it's just the keylogger the FBI put on your machine?
Scarfo: Of course, what did I say it was? *mutters* Kids are so funny these days...
Re:Hey! (Score:1)
Finally, a judge standing up to the police (Score:2, Insightful)
Hopefully, this judge's courageous ruling will slow America's descent into a police state. The very idea that the FBI is conducting warrantless searches is contrary to everything Americans have fought and died for.
Re:Finally, a judge standing up to the police (Score:1)
FBI agents installed the key logger system on Scarfo's computer after getting a search warrant allowing them to break into his Essex County business and look for a password that would unlock files they believed contained records of the illegal enterprise.
The defense argument is that the FBI should have gotten a warrant for a wire-tap instead (apparently much harder to obtain). In other words, either the FBI was simply lazy, or they didn't have enough evidence to begin with. The judge is probably wondering whether this "device" should properly be called a wire-tap in which case all the evidence from the computer will be tossed (note that IANAL).
Re:Finally, a judge standing up to the police (Score:3, Interesting)
According to the Wired [wired.com] article yesterday:
This would be impossible (or at least highly improbable) with a hardware device. With software, however, it could be done - log everything until you see PGP running and a passphrase being entered. Then stop logging.
I have a hunch it's software, not hardware, for another reason.
This whole case revolves around whether the FBI "placed a bug" (i.e. wiretapped) or not. "Bug" has traditionally meant a hardware device, which does not appear to be covered by the warrant. (If they had a warrant to place a bug, the defence wouldn't be arguing otherwise).
Even the most kl00less n00b of a judge would be able to see that a Keyghost or other hardware-based key-logging device is fundamentally the same as a microphone. One logs keystrokes. The other records voice. If the warrant didn't authorize the placement of an audio bug, it probably didn't authorize placement of a keylogging bug.
But if it's software, the Feebs can argue "Hey, it's not a device, it's just ones and zeroes on his hard drive. We left nothing, we just tweaked some magnetic lines of flux on a spinning piece of metal."
The funny part is that this is the same FBI whose lawyers are arguing (eg. DeCSS, Sklyarov, etc.) that even source code can be a "circumvention device". I guess code is a "device" when it serves the FBI's purpose, and "not-a-device" when it... well, serves the FBI's purpose.
The sad part is that it's going to take a pretty enclued judge to figure out that if DeCSS is a "device" for circumventing protection, then a keylogger -- even if it's just software -- is just as much a "device" for conducting a wiretap of the line between a keyboard and a computer.
Finally, doing it in software enables them to turn the logging off after they capture the PGP passphrase. I speculate that they realized they were treading on the outer fringes of what they could legally do under this warrant, and wanted to be able to make at least some claim that they minimized the amount of data to be captured.
All of this leads me to believe it was a software device, not a piece of hardware. "If we can't get a warrant to place a wiretap, let's do it with software, and then if the defence argues otherwise, we might at least have a shot at convincing the judge that software isn't a "bug" because it's made of bits, not atoms, and the wiretap law was written when the only technologies for wiretapping required atoms."
(The obvious argument for the defence: "In that case, Your Honor, we submit that the instant the software ran on the defendant's computer, the FBI had effectively installed a bug. Instead of it being the cute little ones you read about in Tom Clancy novels, it was a full-tower 1G Athlon bug. But it was still a bug.")
That said -- let's have an open mind. Maybe they're doing something more advanced than installing a Keyghost. Maybe they're using a new way of installing software known only to the 'l33t d00dz in the intelligence community.
Finally, maybe the technology is also in place now on real threats, and the bugs - hardware or software - weren't planted by "cops operating with a warrant", but by intelligence agents (or double agents), whose lives would be jeopardized by their targets' acquiring the knowledge to detect these bugs.
As much as I mistrust the FBI, if any of those scenarios is true (and they're all plausible), it doesn't matter how weak the FBI's case is in the case of this mobster, the tech should remain under wraps.
What if... (Score:4, Funny)
Judge Politan (Score:1)
Threat to national security? (Score:1)
What are they afraid of? (Score:4, Interesting)
But I'm getting the impression that's not possible. Which should tell you a lot.
Re:What are they afraid of? (Score:2)
It seems to me possible that the FBI is using a device that can actually monitor a keyboard without touching it. If you ever turn the volume on your soundcard way up, you'll notice that you can hear in the static different notes depending on which keys on the keyboard you press.
This isn't something the average shmuck could defeat easily if he knew about it, but the larger fish which make and break FBI agents' careers do have the resources to install jammers for such occasions. So it is quite possible that the FBI has a point here.
Re:What are they afraid of? (Score:2)
Well, *you* might not have known that already, but I did. It's also possible (with appropriately advanced equiptment) to recreate what is on a regular monitor (I'm unsure of LCDs) by the frequencies it bleeds as well.
It's just rather technologically difficult. But we already knew it was possible.
Certainly the FBI doesn't think everyone is that stupid (um..never mind)
Re:What are they afraid of? (Score:1)
Maybe the judge should just have one installed at the FBI HQ, so he can see for himself what the FBI are saying about it.
it doesn't say the judge ordered they disclosure (Score:1)
Re:it doesn't say the judge ordered they disclosur (Score:1)
On August 7, the court ordered the government to submit to the defense and the court a report "detailing how the key logger device functions" by August 31.
Revealing the FBI's secret... (Score:4, Informative)
This [slashdot.org] was mentioned on slashdot a year ago.
A company called Keyghost [keyghost.com] makes a small device that you place either inside a keyboard, or in between the keyboard and the computer that will log several kilobytes of keystrokes.
I would assume this is similar to the super secret technology that the FBI used.
Re:Revealing the FBI's secret... (Score:1)
Perhaps the fbi should hurry to quash:
http://www.keykatcher.com/howitworks.htm ???
Maybe they're not willing to admit that they squandered millions of our tax $$$ to reinvent something that has been available from china for years?
Shit - if you have physical access to the guy's keyboard, any sixth-grade kid should be able to snag the keystrokes with a PIC or SBC?
;)
Re:Revealing the FBI's secret... (Score:4, Informative)
Yes, and they even advertise it as such.
From their homepage:
KeyGhost II Professional Special Edition: This model stores up to 2,000,000 keystrokes with 128-bit encryption. It is recommended for long-term monitoring and computer security control. This model is designed for government agencies, such as the police or drug enforcement, which are engaged in long-term computer investigations. A 'Turbo Download Adaptor' is highly recommended when using this model, as using 'Ghosting' to retrieve the keystrokes may take several days. Retail Price: $US 349.00
Re:Only 2 million? Do they think we use macs?? (Score:2)
National security - yeah right... (Score:1, Interesting)
It looks like a simple torroid RF blocker on a keyboard cable at first glance... Then again, given the amount of dust, mummified donuts, dead , cables, and cat hair - I never look at my keyboard port anyway...
On disassembling the keyboard to install the device: I can just about guarantee you that the FBI would know what type of keyboard this guy had, would buy one exactly like it - take it apart at their shop, install their junk, and then swap 'em so he wouldn't know... They don't take anything apart right there - that's the best way to get discovered and killed...
The same keyboard, eh? (Score:1)
This is what comes from eating at your desk
Re:National security - yeah right... (Score:1)
Re:National security - yeah right... (Score:1)
The one currently in place on my home computer has a UK keymap too (since I moved from the UK to the US)
Re:National security - yeah right... (Score:1)
Been around for years.... (Score:3, Interesting)
This is probably just a variation of that.
Chris.
Re:Been around for years.... (Score:1)
Re: More likely TEMPEST (Score:2, Interesting)
Basically, tempest eavesdroppers exploit the electromagnetic radiation generated by things like your monitor, UTP Ethernet, serial cables... in some cases the radiation thrown into the shortwave band is broadcast fairly significant distances... also advanced techniques -- such as irraditing a building with a certain frequency of electromagnetic radition -- prove that it's been possible to pluck individual instructions of a CPU.
The most simple form of tempest eavesdropping is reconstructing the image displayed on your CRT, however, it would also be possible to grab keystrokes from a PS/2 cable (or your pin code from the serial cable that connects the keypad of an ATM)...
Actualy CRT eavesdropping is fairly simple... all you really need to get started is an old B&W TV with manual sync signal adjustment (the sync signal on a monitor usually isn't powerful enough for "home-made" [i.e. crude] eavesdropping devices to detect-- so in order to get a coherent picture you need to manually control sync.)
Do a search on Google for tempest radiation [google.com]-- you'll find all sorts of interesting things... Check out also Tempest for Eliza [erikyyy.de] -- it's a neat functional demonstration. With it, you can use your monitor to broadcast music on the shortwave spectrum. It's sort of eerie actually.
BRx.
Re: More likely TEMPEST (Score:1)
Re:Been around for years.... (Score:1)
who is the fbi afraid is gonna find out... (Score:1)
Re:who is the fbi afraid is gonna find out... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:What happens? (Score:1)
But then I know nothing of your American ways
Re:What happens? (Score:2)
Of course, someone ELSE could come by and surprise them all.
-Restil
Re:And what if they don't? (Score:1)
BRx.