Australians Barred From Gambling Online 105
An Anonymous Coward writes: "The Sydney Morning Herald is running a story today about online gambling. Australians will be banned from gambling on online casinos -- domestic or offshore.
The deal, made on the day before Federal Parliament goes into winter recess, means that in six months' time interactive gambling operators will not be able to enforce debts owed by Australians gambling on their sites."
argh (Score:1)
I'm hang my head in shame, i didn't vote for these bastards - but i guess i should've blown them up or something...
Just, please don't think we are morons due to the actions of the corrupted few.
Share trading? Try insurance... (Score:1)
the net cant be censored (Score:1)
Re:Ok, here's how it works... (Score:1)
For a start, it is possible to run a credit card in another country. The bank may of course add conditions like having a deposit account with suffficient to cover the card limit.
Secondly, if an Australian knowingly incurs a debt that s/he hopes not to pay because local legislation prohibits it, that would be fraud.
Thirdly it requires the Ozzie banks to know all the Casinos. Nearly as hard as keeping track of all the porn sites, especially since they now have an interest in not looking like Casinos. (How about a bill saying "payment for software download"...)
A quite probable result would be for Ozzie credit cards to be refused everywhere, not just in Casinos. After all if it is legal for the Government to block the payment of one type of debt, they can block all. Say if they are unhappy with the balance of payments. Look for some strong opinions from the major credit card companies on this sort of thing.
Re:dirty aussie scum -WARNING OFFTOPIC (Score:1)
"British are all the Same"
Please don't counter stereotypes with stereotypes, if he is one of the 'few idiots' then we are clearly not 'all the same'. I'm certainly not... and I don't know anyone fool enough not to want to bask in Australia in the sunshine, lucky buggers.
The guy's an idiot, and if he had any balls he would make his opinions known to people's faces, he'd have his arse kicked from pom to Aus and back again in no time.
Ignore him.
Minor problem with your logic... (Score:2)
Yeah, but by blocking on the start! (Score:1)
I have to wonder about the officiating at that race - Ralf was punished harshly for something Michael also did to an extent. I wonder if they'd didn't want to make sure it would be a nice clear victory for Michael? Wouldn't look nice if the two brothers knocked each other off in their home GP!
Ok, here's how it works... (Score:5)
Australians can get connectivity to overseas casinos - no problem. No blocking by ISPs, no need to create blacklists, etc.
The Australian Government, within the next six months, is required to implement additional legislation which will prohibit banks from honoring credit card debits originating from transactions with casinos. They'll still have to honor credits, though. You can tell whether a credit card has been issued by an Australian bank by looking at the first four digits.
When an Australian gambles at an overseas casino and wins, they'll get to keep their winnings, because the casino will post a credit to their credit card account. When they lose, though, the casino will attempt to post a debit transaction... which the banks will be required, by legislation, to dishonor.
So Australians will still be able to gamble, but they'll never lose.
So there's no need to prohibit Australians from visiting online casinos overseas, because online casinos overseas will simply refuse to do business with them. You have an Australian credit card number? Sorry, that card isn't accepted here.
This isn't a technological issue, it's a financial "solution" to the "problem" of online gambling. Why bother banning it when the casinos themselves will do it for you?
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Offshore? (Score:2)
Does this mean that if the Australians happen to be abroad (offshore) they will be banned from gambling too? ;-)
Jacco (to e-mail me, please remove all yourclothes) /var/log
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# cd
I don't think it's such a bad thing (Score:1)
I was very opposed to the internet censorship legilsation we've had through. It's stupid because it's unworkable. However, this seems like a fairly reliable way of peventing Australians from participating in online gambling. As such, I don't see it's such a bad thing.
There's a degree of hysteria towards Australia now ewhen it comes to internte regulation. While our legilsators have done a poor job on a couple of points (the federal government's Online Services Ammendment Bill thing, and the Soth Australian government's brainless follow-up to it), it's not really any worse than legislation I've seen of an equally poor standard in several othre first world countries. I think the dire commentary coming from many posters here is unjustified.
The greatest day in the history of Australia... (Score:1)
"...in six months' time interactive gambling operators will not be able to enforce debts owed by Australians gambling on their sites."
C'mon people, I credited my geekish countrymen and women with more nous than that displayed so far...
Judging by the slashbite leading this story (and lo, what other source would I rely on for nationally significant news) Australia is headed for the greatest period of risk-free, debt-free fun we've ever seen... d'you seriously mean that noone will be able to persue Autralians for debts incurred on overseas-hosts sites?
Brrring it owwwwnnnnnnnnn!
Re:How this works. (Score:1)
I hope so. I have to admit that it pleases me in some peverse but satisfying way to savour society tying itself in knots trying to figure how to cope with the information revolution (I bet I'm the only one here who still uses that term) and the exponential growth and dominance of concepts that it grasps, as a whole, on the level of a learning-challenged 2 year old.
Re:The greatest day in the history of Australia... (Score:1)
miy bad 8~P
Re:won't somebody think of the CHILDREN! (Score:2)
In Australia, gambling is controlled by the various state governments, who receive a significant fraction of their tax revenue from it - I think the figure in my home state is approximately 10% of state tax collected - that's about 170 AUD (85 USD) per person per year. Faced with the demands of funding stuff while keeping taxes low, raising money by tacitly encouraging gambling by increasing the opportunities to do so has been an easy option. Hence, we have massive mini-casinos full of one-armed bandits scattered throughout our suburbs and towns, horse racing, which you can bet on by phone or in virtually every pub in Australia, and massive casinos in all our major cities, which get most of their revenue from locals rather than tourists.
The federal government, however, has the power to regulate telecommunications, so internet gambling is in their bailiwick. As regular /. readers will know, the current federal government is run by a bunch of wowsers (they brought in the net censorship regs, for instance, and have tried to stack the film classification board with fundamentalist nutballs), and so it's unsurprising that they have tried this ban. If the federal government is being hypocritical, it is doing so only in that states who fund a significant part of their budgets from gambling taxes aren't going to be quite so dependent on the federal government for funds.
About the only surprise is that they have done so in such a clueful way - this stands a chance of actually working.
Go you big red fire engine!
Grosse transaction (big deal) (Score:2)
--
Knowledge is, in every country, the surest basis of public happiness.
Re:fosters (Score:2)
Anyone actually from there know if that's all over IL, or just downtown Chi?
What about the flipside? (Score:1)
What, then, if you actually won anything? Since you're an Aussie, and such gambling was not allowed, would the casinos be forced to pay you? I'd think not.
The net effect is that you'd just be killing time if you tried this. If you can't actually win, and are not required to pay if you lose, why play at all?
How this works. (Score:2)
First, we have to assume that payment was made to the casino/sportsbook via credit card (because if it was a cash or wire transfer, there would be nothing to refute, it'd be a done deal, right?)
Online gambling operations, at least, the successful ones, firstly, have fairly low credit card limits. You'd be surprised how low. You can only put so much a day and a month into the account.
Rule #1 with Visa (for example, insert other card names as you wish) is that, if you authorized the transaction, then the transaction goes through. You cannot later refute it saying 'I changed my mind'.
Now, you COULD point out that, as gambling is illegal, Visa lending you money for gambling (presuming they knew the merchant was a gambling operation) might be determined illegal, and you might get off on the debt (and lose your credit card, and credit rating, of course). This is what happened in California that one time; some lady had her $50,000 debt to Visa overturned because lending money for gambling is illegal in California, and Visa knew what the merchant was doing.
3) By trying to cancel your bet, you are also presumably admitting to illegally gambling. I don't know what penalties are for this, if any, but...
4) Most online gamblers, the ones the online shops like, are addicts. If you mess over the sportsbook you are betting at by welching on your bet, do you think you will be allowed to bet there again? Do you think they won't share your name and info with other operations? Where are you gonna get your fix? The truth is, many people WILL pay up, though I'm sure some guy who first-times it in and blows his life savings will use this as a loophole and get away with it.
Re:IOU (Score:2)
1) Don't tax the people, tax the casinos. But that doesn't work if you forbid online casinos from operating in your country.
The problem is that online casinos need basically the same license as a meatspace casino to operate, and jurisdictions are not going to let it happen. THey don't realize that the laws are antiquated.
A casino/sportsbook that operates online is just as accessible to americans if the servers are in Antigua as it is if they are in Vegas, or California. IT makes absolutely NO difference as to who can gamble there. The only difference is that, if you chase the business offshore, you lose out on taxing the business, on on the jobs it would create.
Taxing people is a different matter; I'm happy I'm Canadian, and gambling winnings are not taxable. Not lotteries, not casinos, trips to vegas, whatever... not taxable.
Re:Just a Stupid US-centric Observation (Score:2)
Just as the Pound symbol is used by the UK and Ireland (and no, they aren't the same thing)
Re:Grosse transaction (big deal) (Score:2)
As far as I know, even winnings you win in other jurisdictions, trisp to vegas, etc, are not taxable. Yes, our lotteries are run by crown corporations, and casinos locally are taxed heavily.... but *all* game-of-chance winnings are tax free in Canada, regardless of where they come from.
On that note, gambling online via offshore gambling operations is grey-area right now... it may or may not be legal when things are sorted out.
Also, casinos are also operated by private enterprise; they just have to pay large tax. Not all proceeds go to government.
You read up. Plus.. (Score:2)
Besides, what's 'offshore' to you might be 'onshore' to a lot of other people.
The sites that run gambling transactions tend to license the software from one of the 2 or 3 main developers of gambling software. These developers, most of them, also run the transaction servers themselves (those running the casinos often don't; they just run websites/do marketing).
Trust of the gaming system is an obvious question... so what do they do? Independent audits. You can look at profit margins, randomly test the games, lots of things to see that these casinos are operating according to the book. Folks, they can't afford not to. The margins for a small online casino are small; one or two people running it will make an okay living off it, a few grand profit a month, but that's it. If the word gets out, even once, that your games are rigged, hello lawsuit, goodbye ALL customers. It just doesn't really happen.
Also... a very large part of online gambling is the ever popular sportsbook... it's a little harder to cheat at that...basically impossible.
Basically, you dno't gambe at some little online casino nobody has ever heard of.. you check out who they are, where they are, what systems they use, and who audits them.
Why it won't help.l (Score:3)
Payment is also accepted in many other forms, including paypal & western union, and bank wire. These will be more difficult to stop.
This will simply be a waste of time for all involved, and won't really stop online gambling at all.
Bzzt...where did you hear that? (Score:4)
http://130.88.203.73/asktheexperts/faq/aboutsym
What is the origin of the dollar sign ($)?
There have been several theories to account for the symbol $, which was in use long before the introduction of the American currency. Most probably it was an adaptation of the figure `8', representing the Spanish `piece of eight' or eight-real coin.
The name `dollar', however, derives from the Dutch or Low German word daler (in German taler or thaler) - originally Joachimstaler, referring to a coin from the silver mines of Joachimstal, in Bohemia (now Jáchymov in the Czech Republic), which opened in 1516.
Or.. From another site.......
Information on the origin of the symbol for the dollar.
As it turns out, the symbol ($) comes from Spain. the II upon the S
represented the Pillars of Hercules, upon which rests the Spanish
coat of arms. The S came about from the plural for Dollars or Pesos.
In Spanish 1 Dolar, 2 Dolares, 1 Peso, 2 Pesos etc. hence the S. To
identify the United States dollar from all other dollars the S was
superimposed with a U. Hence a US Dollar. In time, people not
understanding the origin and / or due to unclear hand writing, the U
was replaced with II. More time elapsed and to speed up the writing
process, the II became a single I as in $. Now that the $ is
built into virtually all computers, the evolution will probably
stop.
As for how the US came about acquiring the denomination, the
Spanish Embassy in Washington said that when the War of
Independence began, they soon realised how they needed to mint
money which would be recognised as legal tender by the US' allies.
France was approached and asked for permission to base the US
currency on the French 'Livres'. France said no. Then the US' other
ally, Spain, was approached. The Spanish Cortes (Parliament) decided
they would allow the US to base their national currency on the
Spanish Silver Dollar (Dolar de Plata), already in circulation in many
Southern States. However, it appears that the Spanish term 'Dolar'
was derived from the word 'dollar'. So the word itself comes from
somewhere else. The origin of the word 'dollar' is often attributed to
the Bohemian 'taler' (short for joachimstaler from Sankt Joachimsthal
where talers were first made). The Spanish Silver Dollar ('piece of
eight') was patterned after the taler. So I guess we owe Spain and
Bohemia our monetary units. I hope you find this topic as interesting
as I do.
Banning gambling .... (Score:2)
There's already a sizeable grey economy despite the red tape of the Grab Snatch and Take (GST) tax. The average Australian doesn't take much notice of what goes on in Canberra and I seriously doubt whether a fiat dictate on internet gambling is going to make much of an impact. Gambling is really a stupidity tax on people who can't do maths so I suspect this latest triump of parliamentary wisdom is really due to the politicians hating competition.
LL
No change there then. (Score:2)
As the world currently stands you can gamble on your credit card and if you lose you can simply dispute the charges and you're fine. As far as the credit card companies are concerned, no signature, no deal, the merchant (casino) is screwed. The credit card companies have basically behaved how you'd expect, no real innovation, no real proactive movements to securing things from start to finish (ie decent PKI smart cards at a reasonable price). The merchants wear it directly, but the legitimate consumers are wearing it to cover the high fraud rate.
Fortunately capitalism is beginning to scare them. The merchants are pissed off at the enormous chargeback ratio and are looking elsewhere. These days everyone wants to acquire transactions. Mobile phone companies want you to buy cans of coke with your phone etc. etc. etc.
The credit card companies have done as little as possible. Personally I'd like to see them screwed, but I'm pretty sure they'll manage to ride in on the hard work a lot of other people have put in and save their unimaginative arses.
If the gambler pays up front (Score:4)
Buy tokens. Play with tokens. Big Deal.
Oh no!! (Score:1)
Re:Ok, here's how it works... (Score:1)
They are doing it not out of concern for Australians but rather out of concern for the people who run the casinos, poker machines (I think there are more poker machines in Aus than in the rest of the world), and lotteries.
Sadly, free trade is a myth in Australia: the governments here seem to love to grant artificial monopolies that would never make it in a truly free market. (Of course, that's not terribly different to the rest of the world.)
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No, hed dont meow. (Score:1)
Yes, great idea. (Score:3)
won't somebody think of the CHILDREN! (Score:5)
Poor little helpless souls, just think of the extra money a family could spend on their children , if only online gambling was banned FOREVER!
Oh wait.
There's poker machines and keno in just about every pub in
Hypocritical bastard politicians - more concerned about the tax drain and Big Business than people's quality of life.
Most aussies would prefer to head off down to the track, or the pub, or the TAB and socialise whilst blowing the family life savings.
Just another thing that makes me wish that shock collars could be fitted to all politicians.
Hey, maybe we could activate them via the internet? It'd be great!
Politician on TV - "I think the internet is evil and we should censor
A man can dream, can't he?
** Windows has detected a mouse movement.
Why would this matter? (Score:2)
Most gambling enterprises do not require a right of enforcement. They obtain a transfer of funds in the amount of the wager before the bet has been taken. Then, they "enforce" the debts themselves -- by moving funds in an offshore account they control, governed by foreign laws.
All the law will accomplish is to deny Australians gambling credit. Of course, even there, it is difficult to distinguish gambling credit from plain credit, when the loan is obtained independently from the wager -- thus, either the law will be ineffective, or the law will operate to make any credit to Australian nationals more risky.
Re:Shop for a Win! (Score:2)
And assuming that no java applets are involved?
Then again, with the preponderance of shitty sites that require javascript for all kinds of stupid reasons, plus needless use of frames, you might be out of luck anyway... I have a special silver sledgehammer waiting for me in heaven to pound those programmers responsible back into limbo every time they crawl out.
Boss of nothin. Big deal.
Son, go get daddy's hard plastic eyes.
Why not? (Score:2)
Setting up a new industry overnight... (Score:4)
1: user@.au "buys" stuff at bogus e-commerce site
2: Account credited to anongambler@domain.!au
3: Gamble it away
4: If balance is postive, credit it back to bogus e-commerce site.
5: If it gts tricky, credit it to a real e-commerce site and get it sent as "gifts".
Does this mean that they will also be stopping online share trading? How many people use e-trading as a "classy" form of gambling because they don't know as much as they think they do.
Xix.
Re:Grosse transaction (big deal) (Score:1)
Re:fosters (Score:1)
Re:Tooeys is just as bad (Score:1)
Only dogs and tourists eat roo. (Score:1)
people who live in glass houses... (Score:1)
Alston (Score:3)
..and for extra credit, who in our Australian audience can recall how Alston came to this remarkable conclusion? Anyone? Anyone? Beuler? That's right, he figured ozzies would have to "make a long distance call" to use offshore online casinos. We all knew he'd figure it out eventually, who figured it would take him 12 months?
Re: (Score:2)
I can't say I'm particularly suprised... (Score:3)
Australia has lots of legal gambling outlets. Most of them are owned by the same people who own the mass media.
Putting two and two together, I'd be willing to bet that this is not so much an attempt to stop the 'scourge' of net gambling, but to prevent leeching of profits from the casinos.
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Freedom of trade. (Score:1)
Also, if an overseas casino just labels its transactions as from Bob's Fishmarket then how does the bank know, and are they liable under the legislation if they didn't know it was a casino?
IOU (Score:5)
Gambling is big business anywhere you go, and unless money is coming back into the state, they'll here none of it. Sort of similar to what the Secret Service did to Gold Age [wired.com], a raid of their business. Governments despise people not paying money to them, and anyone doing so they're going to make sure they get them. What happened with Gold Age, is simple, no one pays taxes for buying `e-gold` and much can't be done to trace anything.
Big Bro gets pissed, we bitch, a week later another circumvention procedure takes over. Snowball Effects 101
gotta make plans (Score:1)
Unless I misread the compromise, you can collect your winnings but aren't liable for your losses. But there will always be someone who'll take your bets...
Bah, insurance... (Score:2)
Insurance is another ponzi scheme, just like gambling.
If people want to blow/"invest" their money, that's their prerogative, and others should have no right to tell them what they can or can't do with it.
Not good for online gambling industry.... (Score:1)
Australia has one of the biggest gambling populations (percentage and spending wise) around, and a lot of money was spent advertising specifically to them. Note: the kangaroo and koala type ads did not go over well. gee, wonder why.
Now, they'll have to funnel that same money (or even more) into fraud protection and system changes, to keep Australian players out. And they do spend a surprising amount of money trying to prevent players who shouldn't be in the system from getting in (mainly because if those players DO get in, they can't keep the money they lose. It all has to be credited back).
Of course, anyone with a bit of tech savvy can get around these measures, but lets face it.. the majority of these players aren't the brightest. Otherwise, they wouldn't be spending huge amounts at online casinos in the first place.
So it will be the same as the UK then (Score:1)
This doesn't seem to have made much difference in the uptake of gambling of any kind here.
Re:fosters (Score:2)
Re:If the gambler pays up front (Score:2)
Australians gambling off shore (Score:1)
Who knows, maybe some entrepeneurial bank from another country will make a fortune supplying international credit cards to Aussie gamblers?
Unfortunately it looks to be a certainty that these stupid laws will pass like others before them, I just hope that one day somebody will be able to remove them.
It's based on Aus CC# (Score:2)
I'm so finding an internet gambling site...
Buckets,
pompomtom
Re:dirty aussie scum (Score:1)
Better keep a hammer and chisel in yer pocket... (Score:1)
Some of the online casinos are apparently run by some very shady characters. Some are just enterprising businessmen with a sporting bent. But some have friends with accents, da?
If you thought the original Italian mafia was bad, wait until a surly Russian gentleman comes to your door and force-feeds you gallons of borscht until you're begging to pay up...
Re:Share trading? Try insurance... (Score:2)
Then again, theres no point in being religious if you cant be a little hypocritical.
Re:Ok, here's how it works... (Score:4)
As an Australian I think this is about the only decent internet regulation in .au so far. Why? because gambling and loteries are (as someones sig puts it) it "a tax on stupidity". Allowing gambling online is essentially like allowing people to pay taxes to other countries, when there still at home.
The main reason gambling is so prevelant is because governments too scared to raise regular taxes, they are not however too scared to intruduce new forms of heavily taxed gambling. Of course they only see the revenue that gambling brings in not the welfare/bankruptcy/crime costs that go along with it.
Just my 2 .au cents (1 US cent).
Re:the net cant be censored (Score:1)
Re:Grosse transaction (big deal) (Score:1)
Most Canadian lotteries, casinos and such are indeed run by governments, but some are not. Examples: Casinos run by Indian tribes, lotteries run by various charitable, religious or sports organizations.
Re:IOU (Score:2)
Re:Why it won't help. (Score:1)
I very much doubt that.
and won't really stop online gambling
That's true.
"paypal & western union, and bank wire" generally require you to have the money up front. Credit card gambling allows you to run up masses of debts at casinos that potentially have no regulation.
Stopping people from being able to go home, logon and loose thousands of dollars on their credit card, will have an impact and is certainly not a waste of time.
Gambling is a problem, it is ruining people's lives, and a government has a responsibility to protect people - including protecting them from themselves.
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Re:won't somebody think of the CHILDREN! (Score:1)
Umm, yeah, whatever.
Do you actually think that the green senators give a flying fsck about big business?
I contend that they actually are concerned about the citizens.
Compulsive gambling is a serious problem, and online gambling makes it even easier.
I'd love to see pokies thrown out of the pubs, but it ain't gonna happen.
Rolling back the clock on gambling is too costly (both economically and politically) for polititians to stomach, but they can stop new avenues from opening up.
That's the same reason pot is illegal, but tobacco is legal. There's no feasible way to ban tobacco, but keeping pot down is relatively successful. It doesn't make much sense, but it's the only "workable" option right now.
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Re:Better keep a hammer and chisel in yer pocket.. (Score:1)
note to self (Score:3)
not REALLY news (Score:2)
It is a rather cunning way to get some degree of self- regulation
If they'd done the same thing for internet porn they'd have won applause.
no freedoms reduced, just making net companies think about the consequences.
Might speed up online currency develoment tho (to get around it)
Hey, does this mean I'll stop getting SPAM ? (Score:1)
If that were the case, then all Allston has to do is ban us from visiting porn sites and checking out get-rich-quick schemes, and I won't get any spam at all !!!
Sigh. Somehow I don't think so.
Good Idea (Score:1)
Isn't this illegal? (Score:1)
Re:Ok, here's how it works... (Score:1)
Re:dirty aussie scum -WARNING OFFTOPIC (Score:1)
HAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHA you British are all the Same. You use us as human sheilds and when we prove ourselves time and time again you just bitch about us Anonymously. As The French in Monty Python Say "you silly English k-nnnnniggets. Thpppppt! Thppt! Thppt!"
Dont get me wrong most pommies i havent got a problem with, but as with ALL races on this world there are a few idiots, guess what, this bloke is one of them. and please i really dont need to hear about your sheep fantasies.
As to what we are called, well im guess that due to your post you arnt, so to speak, as sharp as a knife, so i will enlighten you. We are called Australians, now i know thats hard to understand, out you'll come to understand it eventually.
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"Passion Rules Reason." Blood of the Fold
Re:If the gambler pays up front (Score:2)
I suspect the relevant scenario might be more like:
Buy tokens with credit card. Play with tokens. Lose. Dispute charges on credit card bill.
With the new law, the company can't turn around and fight the fact that you're disputing the charges. They can just cancel your account and blacklist your credit card. Given that some players might win, it's going to be a huge headache for the casinos.
So the casinos can either take the risk of credit cards (depending on how often people pull that stunt) or they can require tokens to be purchased with a check-equivilant (which lowers the convenience and impulse factor). Overall, the law certainly doesn't seem to prevent Australians from online, off-shore gambling (although the article implied it did), but (unless I've misinterpreted the credit card/legal interation) it does put a damper on the casinos' profitability.
Re:Just a Stupid US-centric Observation (Score:1)
Re:argh (Score:1)
Here in Canada, gambling is illegal, except when it's a government casino, lottery, etc. Taxes, gambling, they just want our money, as long as they can get our money then they don't care.
Re:Ok, here's how it works... (Score:1)
The Australian legislation makes is easier for gamblers to refuse to pay their offshore gambling debts. However, this scenario would play out in most jurisdictions even without the Australian-type laws.
One reason people use online casinos is because gambling is banned within reasonable commuting distance. However, gambling debts are generally not enforceable [ascusc.org] where gambling is banned. Diligent losers can refuse to pay [quiknet.com] their credit card bills attributed to loses in another jurisdiction. In some cases [lvrj.com], they can cancel payment on checks written to pay debts as well.
Since most online gamblers inevitably must lose and yet cannot be required to pay, it would seem that the online gambling revenue model is fatally flawed.
Re:Ok, here's how it works... (Score:1)
because gambling and loteries are (as someones sig puts it) it "a tax on stupidity"
The epigram is by William Petty [mcmaster.ca] (1623 - 1687) that lotteries are "a tax upon unfortunate self-conceited fools; men that have good opinion of their own luckiness."
For the sake of the fools, it is unfortunate the Australia is banning Australian casinos from establishing online gambling sites because the well-regulated Australian casinos would at least ensure an honest game.
Even more foolish than gambling is gambling at an unregulated casino, particularly an online casino where a computer program determines the payout according to the dictates of a programmer, rather than the laws of chance.
Some unregulated online casinos try to establish some credibility by having their payouts certified [random-logic.com] by an accounting firm. However, the firm may only perform an analysis of the Web log, not the company books. Presumably an online casino that had a dishonest gambling program would know how to modify their Web logs.
In fact, this auditing method is so weak that it makes one suspicious why it was chosen or why a reputable accounting firm would pretend that it indicating anything about the site's honesty.
It's as if a company could be audited by compiling its own balance sheet and having the outside accountant check the arithmetic.
why it's there... (Score:2)
the first piece of Australian internet legislation that can probably be enforced.
why this has happened:
as well as obvious tax controls, Australia has recently been having issues with "problem gamblers", otherwise known as gambling addicts.
online gambling has created a huge difficulty in trying to control problem gambling. if someone can't gamble at the casino or the tab or somewhere else because they are a known problem gambler, they could just go home and gamble online.
a gambling addiction is a very dangerous thing, it directly affects the lives of those around you... sometimes family or co-workers wake up to discover someone they trust has gambled away their house.
there's nothing quite like... (Score:2)
a communications minister who doesn't "get" the internet...
Re:the net cant be censored (Score:1)
Re:note to self (Score:1)
Or... move to Australia with this in mind, end up winning millions, beg them to pay you, have them 'forget' about you for 6 months, get off scot free... I'd think it'd work both ways here, eh?
Re:Offshore? (Score:1)
I know you're all most likely doing this already but you guys need to protest more, write your MPs - beat it into their heads with a 'learning stick', whatever....just don't end up more backwards than your next-door-neighbors in terms of net access.
Kangroo Meat Causes Brain damage to Aussie MP's (Score:1)
--
The issues are larger than this (Score:1)
The Australian State of Victoria successfully introduced poker machines in the early 1990's. Probity was of primary concern. Under no circumstances were gaming machines ever to either cheat a player or be capable of allowing the players to cheat.
Any breach of this rule - even accidentally - results in investigation by the Federal police.
As I said a glimpse. The monitoring system is a central host. All machines are connected via TCP/IP. Machines must respond to authentication and checksum validation at any time. Machine logic systems are sealed. Unsealing the system renders the machine unusable until a reset is hand performed by a government auditor with a unique one-time code.
Gaming logic must be able to survive power down, network disconnection, logic unsealing or any combination of these. If a game is in progress when any disabling event occurs, it must resume and play to completion upon system restoration.
Gaming transactions are monitored and validated by the central host. The random #'s are tracked and results compared. Any machine which violates this causality is disabled.
ALL gaming source code is subject to validation by government auditors. Any programmer attempting to incorporate any suspicious code would immediately be prosecuted.
By government decree, all gaming machines must return a minimum of 87% of their intake. Each game must be submitted with a probability analysis and accompanying source code.
Basically, gaming in Victoria is clean.
Now, when you gamble in an online casino, guess what protection you have.
None.
Gambling is stupid anyway, but online casinos can rip you off blind in ways that traditional gambling venues never can. They're uncontrolled, with no requirement for any sort of probity. Don't give me any bullshit about market forces either, it won't wash. Fundamentally, online casinos are crooked and can get away with it because the only way to PROVE they're crooked is to take massive samples of the games to prove the percentages don't add up.
Here's an example. User spins up a $1,000,000 win on an online game. Gaming program decides that's a bad thing and alters it to a $500 win. Or nothing. Basically online casinos offer ZERO protection to the consumer and should be stamped out. If you HAVE to have gambling, then at least gambling regulated by government decree lets the consumer know what they're getting into. Online casinos are a scam just like any "make-money-fast" pyramid scheme.
In this context, the legislation is not only desirable but quite clever. It puts the onus for blocking Australian gamblers upon the casino itself and you can be sure their desire to protect their revenue flow will radically exceed any measures that the government could ever install.
Yeah, sure you could use overseas accounts or any other means to circumvent the legislation but by that time the legislation's already achieved it's purpose. To prevent online gambling from becoming an impulse purchase. If you have to actually go to any trouble to gamble, chances are you're going to forget it.
Online casinos are scams (Score:1)
Having worked in the gaming industry, I can only give you a glimpse of the staggering levels of protection offered to consumers by government regulation. It's truly awe-inspiring.
The Australian State of Victoria successfully introduced poker machines in the early 1990's. Probity was of primary concern. Under no circumstances were gaming machines ever to either cheat a player or be capable of allowing the players to cheat.
Any breach of this rule - even accidentally - results in investigation by the Federal police.
As I said a glimpse. The monitoring system is a central host. All machines are connected via TCP/IP. Machines must respond to authentication and checksum validation at any time. Machine logic systems are sealed. Unsealing the system renders the machine unusable until a reset is hand performed by a government auditor with a unique one-time code.
Gaming logic must be able to survive power down, network disconnection, logic unsealing or any combination of these. If a game is in progress when any disabling event occurs, it must resume and play to completion upon system restoration.
Gaming transactions are monitored and validated by the central host. The random #'s are tracked and results compared. Any machine which violates this causality is disabled.
ALL gaming source code is subject to validation by government auditors. Any programmer attempting to incorporate any suspicious code would immediately be prosecuted.
By government decree, all gaming machines must return a minimum of 87% of their intake. Each game must be submitted with a probability analysis and accompanying source code.
Basically, gaming in Victoria is clean.
Now, when you gamble in an online casino, guess what protection you have.
None.
Gambling is stupid anyway, but online casinos can rip you off blind in ways that traditional gambling venues never can. They're uncontrolled, with no requirement for any sort of probity. Don't give me any bullshit about market forces either, it won't wash. Fundamentally, online casinos are crooked and can get away with it because the only way to PROVE they're crooked is to take massive samples of the games to prove the percentages don't add up.
Here's an example. User spins up a $1,000,000 win on an online game. Gaming program decides that's a bad thing and alters it to a $500 win. Or nothing. Basically online casinos offer ZERO protection to the consumer and should be stamped out. If you HAVE to have gambling, then at least gambling regulated by government decree lets the consumer know what they're getting into. Online casinos are a scam just like any "make-money-fast" pyramid scheme.
In this context, the legislation is not only desirable but quite clever. It puts the onus for blocking Australian gamblers upon the casino itself and you can be sure their desire to protect their revenue flow will radically exceed any measures that the government could ever install.
Yeah, sure you could use overseas accounts or any other means to circumvent the legislation but by that time the legislation's already achieved it's purpose. To prevent online gambling from becoming an impulse purchase. If you have to actually go to any trouble to gamble, chances are you're going to forget it.
Re:If the gambler pays up front (Score:2)
From my reading, this is correct. The intended effect of this law is to discourage off-shore gambling sites from accepting credit cards from Australians. Once that part has kicked in, it will be much much harder for Australians to gamble online, which suits the backwards ways of the government hack who proposed this legislation. Don't forget that this was brought to you by the same man who proposed legislation making it illegal to forward an email (something like a $10,000 fine I believe) and legislation making it illegal for you to make freely available online anything that your local police department might find harmful or offensive to minors. How's that for someone who doesn't get it?
Say "NO!" to tax money for religious groups. [thedaythatcounts.org]
Re:Ok, here's how it works... (Score:2)
In California this week there was a store attendant who won the largest state lottery jackpot in US history. $140 million. I doubt that he would call it a "tax on stupidity".
Quite frankly, I don't see how playing lotteries and casino games is much more reckless than investing in stocks. You make or lose money on either one, and there's essentially nothing that you can do to affect the outcome of either of them. Sure, you can minimize your chances of losing on stocks by doing market research and analysis and becoming a professional investor. But even professional investors got burned in the IPOs of the dot-com bubble. And you can do the same thing with gambling as well. There are quite a few professional gamblers in the world who have studied the games of chance and calculated their mathematical odds of winning for various circumstances and make a quite successful life of it. They still lose sometimes, but that's just the nature of the beast...just like investing.
Say "NO!" to tax money for religious groups. [thedaythatcounts.org]
Re:Freedom of trade. (Score:2)
Because since it is not illegal to gamble in an off-shore casino (only for them to collect on losses), any Australian with an ounce of sense would dispute the charges on his credit card with the bank.
Say "NO!" to tax money for religious groups. [thedaythatcounts.org]
Online Gambling and taxes Re:IOU (Score:1)
Re:Grosse transaction (big deal) (Score:1)
{
if (amtBetInPennies > 100)
HTMLPrint("I'm sorry, you lost. Try again!");
else
HTMLPrint("I'm sorry, you lost. Try again!");
return FALSE;
}
Re:Freedom of trade. (Score:1)
A constitution that doesn't recognize a right ultimately means nothing more than that right is violated just as if some thug on the street robbed you.
Re:So it will be the same as the UK then (Score:1)
enforcer (Score:1)
whatever
Re:enforcer (Score:1)
Re:IOU (Score:1)
If my brain serves me well (which it generally doesn't), I have a feeling this was only passed by the Liberal government to gain support from this MP, who happens to hold most(?) of the balance of power in the senate...
No doubt taxes had something to do with it, but most of the reasoning for it was this (quite conservative) man.
Australia's drug trade halted! (Score:1)
Sweet lord give me patience.
(I'm an Australian btw and I pray daily for Senator Alston's inevitable Darwin Award style exit from this life that will free us from the constant assault of his stupidity.)
Re:IOU (Score:3)
In contrast, the British government removed all gambling taxes during the last budget. This may seem a little strange, but there is some logic to it. Basically, the UK has a large gambling industry which generates alot of revenue both internally and from abroad. Online gambling was posing a huge threat to this industry. Some of the big players in gambling were threatining to move to offshore tax havens. Therefore: remove the taxes and keep the industry - and along with it keep the jobs and the taxes earned on corporate profits, wages etc.
does this mean (Score:4)
Why won't someone stop this? (Score:1)
The real reason why Au has banned gambling is quite evident: it takes away from profitable state and private run gambling. It means someone has their hands in money and is protecting the resources for someone else. I don't know the names involved. But I do know that's horrendous.
Solution: Some media person, some individual, anyone, should be as forthright as we are on slashdot. For instance, if a politician was asked why he supported this bill, he would say:
"Well, to keep our children safe, to stop the slaughter of innocents, to protect those who wouldn't know better..."
Now, that's a ruse. You know it. I know it. All someone has to say is: "Hey, you're not my babysitter, leave me alone!" Governments are instituted among men not to protect a man from himself, but to protect a man from his neighbors, who may use physical force in relationships. The goverment, then, is the only legal use of physical force, and can only use it in retaliation. There's no reason, nor right, that government should be restricting individuals from engaging in free trade, even if it's stupid in your eyes.
By exposing the motive behind the laws (which is money in someone's pocket, not 'protection for te people') , these politicians couldn't worm their way out of anything.
fosters (Score:4)
Australia did the right thing! (Score:2)