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The Courts Government News

Appeals Court Upholds Rambus Fraud Ruling 60

Posted by Hemos from the getting-it-in-court dept.
LordArathres writes "The Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals in Richmond, Virginia has refused to do away with Infinion Technologies' fraud charges against Rambus Inc. based on alleged failure to disclose its SDRAM patent applications to the JEDEC standards group. This action allows Infineon attorneys to depose Rambus officials and attorneys concerning legal discussions about disclosure of the SDRAM patent applications to JEDEC during the time when the company participated in panel discussions of SDRAM open standards. Client-attorney privileges do not apply in cases of possible fraud. The trial will officially begin April 17. Story Here"
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Appeals Court Upholds Rambus Fraud Ruling More

Appeals Court Upholds Rambus Fraud Ruling

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  • Re:Sorry to hear that.... (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    You're bragging about a 200 hour uptime? People have done that with Windows 98!!

    With unix, you don't even start bragging until your uptime is over 200 DAYS.
  • Yes, thats the jist of it.

    The claim is that Rambus developed these technologies and filed several patents with the USPTO. Then they went to the JEDEC committee and suggested, "hey, why don't we do this: " Without disclosing the fact they had a patent application for it. Now according to JEDEC rules, they HAD to disclose this fact. Rambus did not. Then several years later when SDRAM was starting to roll out - guess what, Rambus had several patents granted that may result in SDRAM royalties.

    While this could be interpretted as an administrative oversight (and certainly Rambus will spin it that way). Rambus apparently went to their lawyers and specifically asked if they could corner the market by withholding this info.

    Or so that is what is claimed in the suit.

    Tom

  • SDRAM design and follies of RAMBUS (Score:3)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 08, 2001 @10:39AM (#306996)
    Actually, I worked for a number of years at that company. I was a systems designer and was TCB(tm). In fact, I noticed first-hand the level of corruption. Sometimes managers and their ilk would purposely shirk on product specifications and when designers complained that the product would not be put together properly, they were silenced. There was one incident where one of the CEOs laid off a worker simply because he objected to the false advertising they were perpetuating.
    The scary part is that I know that was not the only company where such practices were relatively commonplace.

  • heh (Score:2)

    by Danse ( 1026 )

    You're a lot more likely to get modded up if you explain what the hell you mean and offer some evidence to support it. Otherwise you're just another ranting idiot.

  • Been trying to keep a rambus system up more than 2 hours. Dumps 194 ECC errors every time and crashes. The sticks heat up to 500` and say "warning hot surface" on top. And they call this memory. I'm suing for 3rd degree burns.
  • . . . American legal ethics rules . . .

    Now there's an oxymoron if I've ever heard one..
  • Just run over the RAMBUS execs with a car. If you kill someone with a car, it's not really a crime. If you're not drunk, the most you can get is a few months. If you're drunk, then you can get up to 4 years.

    Compare that to watching a legally purchased DVD on a Linux system. For violating the DMCA you can get 5 years!
  • I'm willing to bet that McDonald's has a ton of patents on all sorts of things. Both parents of an ex-girlfriend of mine were human factors engineers, taking existing things and tailoring them to people for efficiency and productivity. They said that the two best human factors departments in the world belonged to the US Postal Service and McDonald's. When McDonald's engineers figure out a way to flip a burger a half second faster, or fill a drink a little quicker, they go and patent that innovation. Why should Burger King get the improvement that McDonald's spent buckets of money developing? McDonald's wouldn't bother spending the cash if it wouldn't give them an advantage in the market. And then your food would take even longer and be even colder than it is now. And if there is one thing that is truly bad for consumers, it's cold french fries.

    -B

  • Re:this is why (Score:5)

    by alkali ( 28338 ) on Sunday April 08, 2001 @10:30AM (#307003)
    Lawyers actually are supposed to report when they KNOW that their client has committed a crime

    Incorrect. Under American legal ethics rules, lawyers don't have to report confessions. (Under the ethics rules in most American jurisdictions, a lawyer does a limited "duty to warn" when a client has told the lawyer that he intends to commit a crime involving serious bodily harm or damage to property (e.g., "I'm going to kill my ex-wife Friday," "I'm going to burn down the widget factory tonight"). But if the crime is already over, there's no duty to report the confession.)

    Note, however, that a lawyer can't put a witness on the stand who the lawyer knows will commit perjury. So if a client confesses to a lawyer, the lawyer can't put the client up on the stand to say "I didn't do it," though that doesn't mean the lawyer can't plead "not guilty" on the client's behalf.

    There is an exception to the attorney-client privilege called the "crime-fraud exception" which means that if a client uses his lawyer's services to commit a crime -- e.g., to commit a fraud, to pass a bad check to his creditors -- he has no privilege. But there's got to be some upfront showing that the client did in fact do that before a court will compel the client's attorney to testify.

  • If you ever get mixed up in anything large and nasty enough to have the big guns of Federal RICO statutes leveled at you, you'll wish you'd never been born. No kidding.

    RICO stands for Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations. This kind of serious criminal prosecution motivated the Mafia to have Jimmy Hoffa "taken for a ride."
  • OK, I'll admit it's somewhat of a stretch. But suppose that fraud is proven in a civil case. That might lead to further criminal prosecution, especially if the victims complain.

  • Re:Anyone care to explain.... (Score:5)

    by s390 ( 33540 ) on Sunday April 08, 2001 @01:47PM (#307006) Homepage
    The Rambus lawyers are potentially in a _lot_ more trouble than perjury and lost licenses. Infineon has alleged that Rambus engaged in a pattern of corrupt practices, in conspiracy with their lawyers and others ("Secret Squirrel" and "Deep Throat" - Rambus moles in JEDEC after Rambus resigned). These charges invoke Federal RICO statutes that have _very_ harsh penalties, as they were created and used to imprison and confiscate the ill-gotten assets of Mafia families and drug-running conspiracies.

    What the Court just did was refuse to throw out the allegations that invoke the RICO jeopardies. If these charges stick, then not only will Rambus lose its patent claims, but its assets could be confiscated, and some Rambus executives and lawyers might be taking early retirement... in Federal penal institutions. Couldn't happen to nicer people...
  • They will go to trial, and pay for their crimes...

    Great! It's about time! I haven't bought a new computer in 2 years now, and the sooner we squeeze these bastards out of the market, the quicker I can buy a cheaper motherboard and cheaper RAM than what's out today!

    (Oh, wait, I forgot about AMD.)

    Now, all I need is those prices to come down on plasma displays a bit more, and I'm set...
  • "Federal RICO statutes ... have _very_ harsh penalties, as they were created and used to imprison and confiscate the ill-gotten assets of Mafia families and drug-running conspiracies."

    Whoah! I am scared. Look how successful the wars against organized crime and drug running have been - NOT.
  • Microsoft is in trouble because, it has to ignore some good ideas in the Linux space in order to please investors.

    Kinda feel sorry for them.
  • How the hell can they refuse to release detail?
    The patent is a means to release knowledge to the public.

    I know a lot of people think that the patent office is some sort of test of ingenuity for inventions and if you win you get to keep everyone from building your invention.

    However, that has nothing to do with reality. Just because you think something belongs to you, doesn't mean it's yours.

    In reality, if you don't realease details then people will need to be as creative as you to invent the same thing.

    Rule 1. Nothing in reality prevents anyone from inventing the same thing, except cost and lack of talent.

    Rule 2. If you release the documentation then anyone can make a copy.

    Rule 3. Most would not release or would release only to neighbors since it would be costly to release everywhere even if they wanted to.

    In reality, though we may have technologies to maximize sharing possibilities, we have several things that drain resources.

    1. We need food, clothes, water, and property. We are not plants, stones, hard skinned animals, nor programs..
    2. We need cash to get all these things.
    3. We need jobs to get cash.

    Abusing patents hurts the job market which cascades and forces companies to abuse patents even more.

    The odd thing is that a company that abuses a patent often has no other recourse to shut up ignorant shareholders. Even if the abuse of the patent will not result in greater revenue, idiot investors will set a value for the company higher than it's truly worth.

    Frankly, refusing to release patent details should negate the patent.

  • you wouldn't mind posting a URL that it can be downloaded from, would you? Otherwise, please email it to me and I'll put it on a server.

    Thanks!

    ----

  • Re:about time (Score:5)

    by OmegaDan ( 101255 ) on Sunday April 08, 2001 @10:16AM (#307012) Homepage
    It is about time rambus got in trouble over it's silly patents.

    [satire]Thats a dangerously unamerican thing to say! These gentlemen, these dreamers, these HEROS awoke with a dream -- a dream to subvert a standards body and profit from that deciet.

    This is infact the american dream. Money for nothing.

  • Well, if you fail to disclose details necessary for operation, that is called non-enablement, and invalidates the patent.

    If you fail to disclose how your "best mode" you also have an invalid patent. (It is theoretically possible to enable and disclose your best mode, but leave something out.)

    Abusing a patent can result in antitrust suits. Automatically trebled damages. We can see the hurt and distraction Microsoft is in. Wandering into that territory can be very bad.

  • Error In The Story? (Score:3)

    by Artagel ( 114272 ) on Sunday April 08, 2001 @11:43AM (#307014) Homepage

    The court of appeals for the FEDERAL CIRCUIT, has exclusive jurisdiction over appeal from patent infringement cases. I don't think the reporter got his court right in the story.

    The Fourth Circuit [uscourts.gov] does not show a disposition of a Rambus case. However, the Federal Circuit [fedcir.gov] does show last weeks dispositions [fedcir.gov] including a denial of mandamus "In Re Rambus Inc." (Sorry, no opinion on the site.)

    As if anyone cares about the difference but me, but I needed to vent about the reporter apparently not even checking which court issued the ruling.

  • Re:no client attorney privilege? (Score:4)

    by Artagel ( 114272 ) on Sunday April 08, 2001 @11:57AM (#307015) Homepage

    The way it works is that:

    First, the person who wants to protect the documents has to show that they were in communication between an attorney and a client regarding legal advice. That establishes the existence of the privilege. The judge may or may not need to look at the documents ("in camera" inspection) to do this.

    Second, the person who wants to break the privilege has to show why the privilege does not hold. The most common reason is that the document was shown to somebody who other than the attorney or client.

    In this case that reason is the "crime-fraud" exception. This is what was used in the tobacco cases to get some of those documents. You have to make a showing that the client was using the attorney's advice to commit a crime or a fraud. That's a fairly hard showing without the document. You can't get the document before you make the showing required to get the document. However, the judge might look at it, and then decide you can have it.

  • For the few lawyers and all the non lawyers: Why is there no client attorney privilege? I mean, the case is 'possible fraud', right? We 'know' who's right & wrong, but isn't there's no innocent before guilty in fraud cases?

    Peace,
    Amit
    ICQ 77863057

  • wouldn't just going out and killing all the lawyers, destroying their offices, their computers, their servers, and their homes get Rambus out of trouble?

    Lawyers don't sue people; plaintiffs sue people. <IANAL>If all the attorneys died, plaintiffs would probably just read the law and represent themselves.</IANAL>

  • The eighteen-month rule (Score:3)

    by yerricde ( 125198 ) on Sunday April 08, 2001 @01:41PM (#307018) Homepage Journal

    Patents are public knowledge, etc. Patent applications are probably not, until the patent is granted.

    Actually, Europe and (since recently [uspto.gov]) the US publish patent applications eighteen months after filing, giving potential infringers ample time to back out of the market.

  • (sigh)
  • Rambus is a good technology (you can see it with P4 systems, the memory bandwidth is good, latency sucks but overall it's not THAT bad). Problem is it's ran by complete greedy morons.

    They have something on which they could compete on the market. The hell with the DDR patent, how about making something better than ddr and kill it on a technological standpoint, not in court, that way they would earn their money, earn our respect and have a nice buisness story... right now they don't have any of it, and worse, they'll probably die by their own stupidity and greed.
  • Me too. And a few million others feel the same way.
    That's why RAMBUS will die.
  • P4s are a miserable disappointment to Intel.
    And they will run on DDR mobos too.
  • From what little I've heard about actual facts in this case, it sounds like the whole RAMBUS fiasco is a pile of dung that is coming home to roost. It's a darn shame that those with the gold make the rules and can hire the lawyers who can show the rules do not apply to them.

    DanH
    Cav Pilot's Reference Page [cavalrypilot.com]
  • Won't find any? Wow, you really go through life with blinders on, don't you? I work for a pharmaceutical company and without the short-term monopoly provided by patent law we wouldn't research or market products. Our company spends billions a year on R&D and you can rest assured that without patent protection we would withdraw from the market altogether. You say you want economic evidence that patent law works: Duh, without patent law our company wouldn't spend on R&D. And without R&D, scientists (AKA geeks) wouldn't have jobs and hence no dinners on the table. Or had you forgotten that companies not only make money, they also spend it???
    ---

  • Hmmm, can't say I agree with you. The issues with Rambus have nothing to do with the fact that they have lots of patents. The issues are that:

    1. Many feel their patents are tenative, covering broad, sweeping areas of technology
    2. Their licensing agreements hurt consumers and stifle innovation
    3. They are being sued for sitting on a standards body and not disclosing patented technologies that ended up in the final standard, then charged steep licensing fees.

    I don't think you can broadly discount patents as a bad thing. Intellectual property law is very important and has proven for many years to promote innovation. For instance, without intellectual property laws the GPL wouldn't exist. Why? Because you'd have no ability to dictate how someone else used your ideas. They could extend your code, charge a gajillion dollars for it, and refuse to release source. It's not IP that's bad, it's when it's abused that there's an issue.


    ---
  • I can't wait to watch the fun.(Hey Court TV,Cover this!) After RAMBUS get what they deserve,M$ is next! (Insert wicked laugh here)

  • Re:Good! (Score:5)

    by Dreyfus ( 176426 ) on Sunday April 08, 2001 @10:33AM (#307027)
    Screw Rambus I'll NEVER BUY THEIR SHIT

    NEW YORK -- Shares of Rambus today plummeted to a record low as investors reacted to an anonymous Slashdot poster's announcement that he would no longer be conducting business with them. "Screw Rambus," said the poster, "I'll NEVER BUY THEIR SHIT." Rambus spokespersons denied that the company would have difficulty meeting third quarter sales projections as a result, but analysts are clearly worried...

  • They're just picking on RAMBUST, makers of such fine products as.... ....they don't actually make anything do they?
  • i would never support a company that uses tainted technology from a company suspected of illegal business practices.

    I'm waiting for an Xbox.

    :)

  • But I've got a system with 128 megs of RDRAM, 800 mHz P3, and an intel VC820 motherboard. My longest uptime has been over 200 hours, and I only ever restart it to apply patches to the system or virus protection (Windows 2000) sorry you're having a bad time, but it works rock solid for me.

    (yes, RDRAM and Windows, flame away, you open source holy rollers. It does what I want it to.)

  • no, I'm saying that if you're computer is having that many problems, then it isn't rambus work. See the post i responded to. by the way, I'm working on an uptime record for windows 2000 on another computer, so far I'm up to 50 days. I just have to make sure nobody in my organization shuts the damn thing off- incidentally, not being a wiz, I use the uptime on RC5 crackin' to measure it.
  • You know, if someone were willing to take the fall (because of loyalty, deferred rewards, or stupidity), wouldn't just going out and killing all the lawyers, destroying their offices, their computers, their servers, and their homes get Rambus out of trouble?

    I mean allegations of fraud require evidence, but if all the evidence were gone...

    Still would there be enough circumstancial evidence lying around?

    Geek dating! [bunnyhop.com]
  • I know it's too early to tell, but in a perfect
    world, maybe the end of the internet boom is a
    return to the world of reasonable law.

    BTW, there is no presumption of guilt OR innocence
    in a civil proceeding...

  • This is infact the american dream. Money for nothing.

    Money for nothing and your chips for free?

  • I think that it is because JEDEC's policy was that member corporations HAD to inform the JEDEC companies about their applications as soon as they were applied for. Rambus never did.
  • Extract fla_mp06.wav from the Q3:Team Arena pak, and loop it in your favorite player. Envision the Rambus "empire" crumbling before your very eyes as you listen to the sounds of the destruction of corruption.

    If there was such a thing as sonic justice, fla_mp06 would be it.

  • If you bought a PlayStation2, then you already did.
  • There is an exception to the attorney-client privilege called the "crime-fraud exception" which means that if a client uses his lawyer's services to commit a crime -- e.g., to commit a fraud, to pass a bad check to his creditors -- he has no privilege. But there's got to be some upfront showing that the client did in fact do that before a court will compel the client's attorney to testify.

    Maybe the courts felt that the rampant lawsuits flung madly in all directions constitute fraud, hoping that someone would just give in and pay instead of fight and get it dropped. It's kind of along the lines of sending a bill to another company for services never rendered, hoping it'll slip through and get paid anyway. This was considered fraud too.

    "Titanic was 3hr and 17min long. They could have lost 3hr and 17min from that."
  • It means that what Rambus and their lawyers said between each other is not private. Normally when you and your lawyer talk, that information is private. No one can ask what you said to your lawyer -- you have "Attorney-Client privileges."

    This is scary for Rambus, because *IF* Rambus revealed to their lawyers that they were purposely withholding info on their patents from JEDEC, *AND* one of their lawyers testifies about that (in fear of perjury and losing their license) then they will be in a lot of trouble.

  • ( Subj line says it all )
    ---
    nuclear presidential echelon assassination encryption virulent strain
  • In other news, I'm surprised that nobody seems to have come up with a Java Filter that is smart enough to just kill multiple and recursive popups and OnClose().

    but popups and onClose aren't Java: they're JavaScript, which is something completely different...

  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • We must both have nothing better to do eh?

    Sure. But I look at the way I'm wasting my time, and the way you're wasting your time, and I'm glad I'm me instead of you.

    In other news, I'm surprised that nobody seems to have come up with a Java Filter [princeton.edu] that is smart enough to just kill multiple and recursive popups and OnClose().

  • I think the issue at hand concerns patent applications, not actual patents. Patents are public knowledge, etc. Patent applications are probably not, until the patent is granted. As I recall, Rambus hid the filing or intent to file patent applications, went to this meeting and got a bunch of ideas, then filed patents on those ideas. In other words, they allegedly committed fraud.

  • ...how about making something better than ddr and kill it on a technological standpoint, not in court,...

    I would cheer any company that does that, but alas, the best technology doesn't always win. Marketing plays a BIG part. Just look at M$. Crappy OS, but great marketing, and look who owns the desktops (for now...).

  • Well, if they are innocent their testifying will only prove that. :P

    Lawyers actually are supposed to report when they KNOW that their client has committed a crime(ie their client admits to raping children or something). Obviously that doesn't happen often, but that is why they may have to testify in court.

    If they lie in court they could face purgery charges and lose their license. I think the lawyers like making >$250 an hour, so they will fess up unless rambus bribes them for more than they stand to lose(or if they are idiots).

    Also note that it didn't say that the lawyers will definitely have to testify, but that they will have to if the plaintif wants them to.

  • about time (Score:4)

    by BlueboyX ( 322884 ) on Sunday April 08, 2001 @10:03AM (#307048)
    It is about time rambus got in trouble over it's silly patents. Moveover, their lawyers have become a liability now that they have to testify. I didn't thing things would get that good. :>

    I am getting tired of companies playing the patent everything game; it is about time it blows up in someone's face.

  • some speculation ... (Score:3)

    by s20451 ( 410424 ) on Sunday April 08, 2001 @10:13AM (#307049) Journal

    One exception to attorney-client privilege occurrs if the attorney and client are accomplices in the crime. Perhaps they are alleging that the attorneys had a role in the crime (which they would have if they were filing the patents)?

    IANAL, etc.

  • OK, maybe somebody can explain this part to me. I would think RICO statues would only apply in criminal cases and this, I'm assuming, is a civil case. How is it that RICO is invoked here?
  • Seems to me that a new court tactic is developing. The first time I remember seeing this was in the Sony vs. Bleem case where Sony filed somewhere around 11 injunctions against Bleem to stop the production of their product. In the Sony case they didn't seem to get much of anywhere. Maybe Rambus figures that if they annoy the courts enough with enough differnet complaints/petitions/crap then eventually they'll find a way to honor one? Who knows?
  • We must both have nothing better to do eh?
  • Caught signal SIGSIG? WTF?


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