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Appeals Court Puts Amazon 1-Click Patent in Question 122

Posted by michael from the click-here-for-justice dept.
sallen writes "An article in the Internet News which can be read here indicates the Appeals Court handed Barnes and Noble a victory by overturning the the injunction of the lower court based on the Amazon Patent. In the article it stated "The United States Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit found, after careful review, "that BN has mounted a substantial challenge to the validity of the patent in the suit." All I can say is, it's about time!"
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Appeals Court Puts Amazon 1-Click Patent in Question More

Appeals Court Puts Amazon 1-Click Patent in Question

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  • :-( (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    If Amazon's getting smacked for their stupid patent, how much longer til despair gets nailed for their frown icon trademark?

    I'm worried. I just bought 5000 Frownies [despair.com] and would like to hope that they remain legitimately protected by law.

    But if Amazon's patent doesn't stand up to scrutiny...

    :-(


    (damn. only 4998 left.)

  • Possible solution? (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Why can't the whole patent application process be modified to include a penalty clause that, if it can be proven that the application is frivolous or is patenting the bloody obvious, that the submitter be liable for a large penalty fee?

    This would at least make these corps think twice...

  • Re:Possible solution? (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    But in the mean time, they carry the patent as a $100 million asset on their balance sheet, for as many years as they can tie this up in court... NOW are you beginning to understand?

  • Hi Mr. Troll.. (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    patents were created, after all, to promote innovation.

    What the hell does this have to do with the subject matter?

    When someone (like Amazon) abuses the patent system like this, they _deserve_ to be smacked down.

    the "one-click" patent is not innovation, by anyone's definition (except perhaps Microsoft)

  • Re:I hope Apple saved their reciept! (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Is it too late to change your name to "Mike the Troll" or "Mike the Fucken Idiot"?

    It's an OBVIOUS idea. Something that should not be allowed to be patented. I guess everyone else was just to honest and ethical to attempt something that sleazy.

    Oh, right.. You're probably american and believe that any way for a fast buck is the right way, regardless of how many people you have to fuck over during the process.

  • Re:1-click technology (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Sure, it's late on the story, I'm posting AC (for reasons that will become clear), but maybe at least doom will read this...

    Prior art up my fucking asshole. I was at a company (*cough*jfax*cough*) where we DIDN'T implement 1-click purchase because we were too small, too burdened with chargebacks as it was, and we felt (and I argued) that the public was at the time too ignorant of web purchasing to be trusted with this. It would just result in a lot of $25 chargebacks from people who claimed "I didn't buy anything." With the size of the company and the date, and the attitude of Visa/MC/Amex towards the Internet at the time, I stand by that decision to this day.

    The point is, if two relatively inexperienced programmers could pull it off before Amazon could, it's obviously a frivolous patent. Oh, yeah, I spent five minutes looking at their affiliate program and implemented my own in a couple days. I still suck as a programmer.

    The problem is that the patent office does a quick search through academic literature. Well, of course they don't find any fucking reference to it, anyone who learns about one-click shopping in their comp sci classes should get their fucking money back!

  • Re:I hope Apple saved their reciept! (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    If Amazon "stole" this idea, how come someone else doesn't have the patent?

    Because it was obvious. I, for instance, don't try to register 50 millions of patents for each program I write.

    Were they too stupid to get one? Oh, that's it isn't it.

    They didn't have money to waste to attempt to patent the obvious. Amazon has/had.

    Oh, that's it isn't it.

    Indeed.

  • Wow cool... (Score:4)

    by Wakko Warner ( 324 ) on Wednesday February 14, 2001 @02:58PM (#431529) Homepage Journal
    ...so does this mean the boycott of Amazon by all three slashdot users who bothered to boycott Amazon will soon be over?

    I'm gonna sit back and watch their stock price soar.

    - A.P.

    --
    * CmdrTaco is an idiot.

  • What... (Score:2)

    by pb ( 1020 )
    <SARCASM>
    Did it conflict with a Barnes & Noble one-click patent, or are the courts becoming rational?
    </SARCASM>

    The article is brief in the extreme, and just says that B&N raised some questions, and at the moment the court likes them.
    Therefore, it doesn't do much to assuage my fears [slashdot.org] about rampant patent abuse.
    ---
    pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate [ncsu.edu].
  • I shopped electronically through both GEnie and CompuServe online services back in '91 or '92. Amazon certainly did not create the "online shopping cart." Their definition of innovation closely resembles Microsoft's.

    This patent should never have been granted. It deserves to be overturned.
  • Congratulations to a big, faceless corporation! (That would be aimed at B&N, not Amazon.)

    B&N had resources to fight this obviously undeserving patent. And now we all stand to benefit if the case is ruled in their favor. Question is: will they "pull an Amazon" in the future and do something equally offensive to consumers? Or will they show that they give a $hit and conduct business in a consumer-friendly way?

    Only time will tell. But at least we have now witnessed one rational ruling from an appellate court. To B&N and the court: thank you for your efforts. It's sad to be thanking a company and a court for doing the right thing. But it is well-deserved.
  • This is not injustice. This is how the system works...

    The bevy of patents that Bezos and co. have filed are pretty lame and don't represent significant *unique* (that's the key) innovation. The patents had to do with ideas/technologies that were very well known and understood, not something revolutionary.

    The system will be working (in my view) when the appellate court declares the patent(s) "common knowledge".

    Cheers!
  • Reverse the current situation (PTO collects money on granting patents). It costs you to apply for a patent, you get a refund if they grant it. So, the fewer they grant, the more they make (incentive to not grant).
  • Becuase these are Big Compaies involed they can afford to take this thing to court. Some small fry would have been killed by now in the court if they even decided to go to court.
  • No, nobody else patented it because it wouldn't hold up in court as the finding in this story shows! What are you missing? Some brain cells?
  • Philip Greenspun claims to have implemented
    a one-click shopping system back when he had
    to argue with people who thought the shopping
    cart must be the way to go because Amazon was
    using it.

    It's highly unlikely that Amazon was really
    first... (and even if they were, there's the
    problem of "non-obviousness"...).
  • No, I'll probably continue to frequent my local [keplers.com] independent [chelseagreen.com] bookseller [booksense.com].

    I know it's not an option for everybody, but, you know, I just like to flip through the pages of a book before I buy it. Heck, I like to flip through books I don't buy. I like being around books. When I go to Amazon I'm just on a web site.

  • Here's a cheer for common sence and here's to hoping that more reason springs forth from this! HooRay!
  • B&N haven't won the case, they have merely had
    the injunction listed. They can still lose the
    case if the Patent is held to be valid.
    Mind you, it does look good for B&N.
  • So you're saying that at the time Amazon developed this technology, no one else could have? Because THAT is the standard that patents are supposed to be held to. To be patented, somethings must be non-obvious to someone of ordinary skill in the area that the patent is granted - in this case, web development.

    When you say it's non-obvious, you're saying that either NO ONE else could have thought "Hey! Let's make it so customers can click ONE BUTTON and get their order" or that NO programmers except Amazon's could have developed the technique. I would suggest that had anyone else had the thought (and many have, independently of Amazon) and that any team of web developers could have come up with Amazon's tehnique if their managers had said "Code it this way or you're fired!"

    I'll grant that my opinion runs counter to that of the USPTO and most patent attorneys, but I believe that my opinion closer matches the intent of Congress and the Constitution. Patents become easier to obtain and easier to grant because the two interested parties (patent applicants and the patent office) want it to be as easy as possible - the USPTO so they can trim their budget and tell Congress "Look! We granted 40 million patents last year! Ain't it cool?" and patent applicants so they can spend half an hour filling out a form and then two decades suing everyone else in their industry.

    IANAL, but if I were, I'd commit suicide.

  • Re:Maybe the start... (Score:3)

    by Black Parrot ( 19622 ) on Wednesday February 14, 2001 @02:24PM (#431542)
    > Congress really should get around to fixing the broken US Patent Office processes, too.

    Unfortunately, that doesn't fit in with most well-heeled lobbyists' agendas.

    Most businesses look at the internet more as a gold rush than an opportunity for sober economic expansion, and they won't take too kindly to having the Congress spoil the party.

    --

  • Re:amazing (Score:3)

    by Black Parrot ( 19622 ) on Wednesday February 14, 2001 @02:30PM (#431543)
    > If I was an investor, I'd want to know why Amazon is so intent on giving money to lawyers to protect a buisness model that isn't even making them any money.

    Actually, I think A is realizing that e-commerce isn't all it was hyped up to be as a business plan, so now they are looking for other means of turning a buck.

    Ditto for all those companies who tried to score big during the "portal" rage.

    However, RAMBUS has a business model that actually works (if they win enough lawsuits), so you can expect more e-commerce companies to tranform themselves into IP holding companies.

    Which should give the public a hint at what's wrong with patent policy in the USA.

    --

  • Re:Just Get Rid of Patents Already (Score:3)

    by Black Parrot ( 19622 ) on Wednesday February 14, 2001 @02:54PM (#431544)
    > Anybody who works in innovative industries should embrace at least the concept of patents to prevent others from taking your ingenious idea and marketing a knockoff without giving you a dime.

    I "disembrace" that idea. Vigorously.

    The constitutional grounds for patents (in the USA) is about promoting progress, not promoting monopolies. If you read it carefully and think about what it says, you'll realize that the only things that could be patented and still promote the constitutional goals would be things that people could not figure out by examining. The philosophy stated in the US Constitution calls for patents as a way of getting people to share ideas that would remain hidden otherwise.

    For example, if I invented a new way to rifle a gun barrel efficiently, people could look at it and see that it had been rifled, but they probably could not see how my clever method did it. They would be free to come up with their own methods of rifling, but if mine was truly more efficient they would want to know what they couldn't see, and a patent would motivate me to share my idea -- all to the good of the public (assuming the public needs rifles), not all to the good of me.

    US Constitution to the side, there's also an ethical issue. Anything you think of is built on millenia of prior ideas and technology. Can you fairly milk the public for the use of "your" idea, when 99.9999...% of "your" idea is just the traditions of your culture? A fair patenting system would read like the terms you get when you buy a house:
    Half the mineral rights belong to... One quarter of the mineral rights belong to... One eighth of the mineral rights belong to... One sixteenth of the mineral rights belong to... [...]
    Sorry, but there's just not much personal credit left over in a technological idea, once prior credit has been given where due.

    Finally, how "ingenious" is any idea? Look at the history of inventions, and see how often an idea was independently proposed and/or developed. Technology is like a wavefront; once the wave reaches a certain point, certain ideas become feasible and people will start to harvest them. I don't see where an individual is entitled to get rich just for being at the right place at the right time. Even if Amazon happened to be first at the one-click business, someone else would have come up with it within a very short period of time afterward if Amazon had not, once the technology was there.

    FWIW, I do support copyrights, though I do not support attempts to take away Fair Use (for my works or any others), nor do I think copyrights should be perpetual.

    As for the patent system as currently practised in the USA, well, it's totally fucked. Powerful interests have a notion that everything should be 0wned, and the gold rush is on. It's a convenient scam for ensuring that the rich continue to get richer, since the patent owners just give each other tit-for-tat licensing, and leave the have-nots to pay what they don't have.

    --
  • So does that mean you'll let me follow you around with a loaded gun pointed at your head? I promise I won't pull the trigger.

    Patents are there to threaten opponents, whether they are actually employed or not is pretty irrelevant.
  • To quote Kermit the Frog: "Yaaaaaay!"
  • Um... Is it in their best interests to change patent practices? (especially if they are being payed lots of money recently ro fight against them). If they actually take pride in what they do, sure, go for it, I trust them... but 'pride in what they do' is not the sort of thing I usually associate with a law firm.
  • Sounds good. Just set up a region of the screen with associated Javascript code to handle a MOUSEOVER command. Then tie that into code which (1) launches an order, and (2) disables the mouseover box (to keep the truly moronic from ordering the same item again and again). If you want you can include a quantity box above the mouseover box. THat way you could order more then one quantity of an item at a time, all by moving your mouse over the 'ZERO-CLICK ORDERING' region of the HTML page :)

    Heck, you could even do 2 mouseover regions either near each other or side by side (but far enough away to make it unlikely to pass over both accidentally). Use the first as a sort of 'safety toggle'. You have to pass over the first region to activate zero-click ordering, then pass over the second region to make the order and relock the system (meaning you would have to pass over the first region in order to unlock the ordering region again).

    Remember folks, you've heard it hear first :)

    You know... it may take some playing with, but I think it might actually have some interesting applications. If the ordering kicks off a child window to actually process the order (keeping the current window pointing to the same page but opening up a stripped down window for the processing and status), this might actually be a usable idea.

  • It honestly wouldn't surprise me if Amazon actually paid Apple to license 1-click in order to give the patent some credibility....

    --
  • I didn't say that Barnes and Nobles wanted to change the tide of IP law, I said that it was this law firm that probably has the best chance of making changes in the future. In specific, they've been taking on a lot of frivolous patents lately. Well, to be accurate, they've been hired to take on a lot of frivolous lawsuits lately.

    Maybe they'll be able to force some changes in patent law. Maybe not. That's all I was saying.


    ---
  • All that I can say is, I know the patent attornies who are working for Barnes and Nobles, and these are the best guys in the business.

    I've worked with them before, and I've got to say, if anyone can change the tide of Intellectual Property law, it's these guys.

    If any of you were wonderring, they're Pennie & Edmonds, LLP [pennie.com]. Expensive as hell, but worth every cent.

    ---
  • No. That's just a typo. Now this [slashdot.org] is ironic.

  • Re:1 down, so many more to go! (Score:3)

    by Flower ( 31351 ) on Wednesday February 14, 2001 @03:06PM (#431553) Homepage
    The problem is this isn't one down. It is more like a timeout. The real trial happens in September and while the current decision looks promising it does not mean the patent will be overturned.

    And I hate to say it but you shouldn't expect the courts to reverse the trend. The current opinion is that everything under the sun which is made by man can be patented. That paraphrase comes from Diamond v. Chakrabarty which iirc went to the Supreme Court. While the patent is for a micro-organism that statement from the Supreme Court was used to uphold a business model patent which atm, I cannot recall. :P

    The only way to fix the patent system, imo, is to ammend patent law. Being the cynic I am, I cannot see that ever happening. Be prepared to fight business model patents a few million dollars and a decade at a time.

  • until I see some sort of apology. they were one of the instigators of this whole patent mess we are in now. (btw I have a patten for submitting posts that start w/ until, and for handles w/ food in them.)

    bah, there are plenty of other stores out there. I haven't really been hampered by telling amazon to take a walk. the last time they saw my IP was when i sent them the letter explaining why I was boycotting them.

    ej

  • Maybe the start... (Score:3)

    by s390 ( 33540 ) on Wednesday February 14, 2001 @02:03PM (#431555) Homepage
    of invalidating lots of stupid business-method patents.

    Congress really should get around to fixing the broken US Patent Office processes, too.
  • That sounds promising to me. I just wish Apple hadn't bought into it. That's rather embarassing I think.

    --

  • Re:1-click technology (Score:3)

    by Coward, Anonymous ( 55185 ) on Wednesday February 14, 2001 @03:34PM (#431557)
    the methodology involved was first developed at amazon, so they may have some claim to it.

    Being first hardly gives you a claim to a patent, you also need the patent to be non-obvious, a test which one-click fails. When humans colonize other planets, there will be a first person to build a hotel on another planet, although this person is the first to do it, this does not qualify the person for a patent because they are doing something obvious, the only reason nobody did it before them is because it was not until recently that technology allowed them to do so. It is the same with the one-click patent, the technology of cookies was new, and Amazon happened to be first to use them to make one-click shopping, but this doesn't mean it wasn't an obvious idea -- that Amazon immediately thought of using cookies to enable one-click shopping indicates that it was an obvious application of the new technology. Had it taken years for someone to use cookies for one-click shopping I would say that it was an innovative use, but that it was thought of immediately implies it wasn't (not that every use of a new technology is obvious, but if you hear of a new technology, the first uses that pop into your head are likely to occur to other people as well).
  • the patent office should get a percentage of the proceeds of patent licensing fees,

    That's terrible! That encorages them to grant all the patents they can get away with!
  • thanks, i never realized how rosy things would be for those workers in the rust belt without the union. they would probably get paid a lot more and get better working conditions, because the corporations would feel sorry for them and feel guilty about making all this money. i bet there would be ping pong tables in factories if it weren't for unions.

  • zero click patent (Score:4)

    by elmdor7 ( 75546 ) on Wednesday February 14, 2001 @03:45PM (#431561)
    Here's an idea for you...

    The zero click ordering process.

    It basically works just like the Columbia House selection of the month. Every month you'll get some crap that you didn't want mailed to you, along with a nice little bill for you to pay. Just remember you heard it here first :P
  • For those unfamiliar with the difference, all that has happened is that the court has overturned the injunction against B&N, not the case.

    This just means that the outcome of the patent case is not so overwhelmingly obvious that an injunction should be granted before the trial.

    The trial has yet to occur.

    So although this is encouraging, there's no news like, er, no news...
  • The article is a little scarce on the details, but I expect so is the actual court ruling. They said that B&N lawyers raised several valid objections to the validity of the original patent. They didn't exactly say whether this was because of prior art or obviousness or some technicality. On this basis, the court stated that it would be inappropriate to grant an injunction against the use of the technology pending a full trial.

    So the only difference is that while the original court said "You are obviously infringing. Stop now, until a full trial makes a decision either way.", the appeals court said "It's not that obvious that they are infringing. We're going to let them continue until the full trial makes a decision either way"

  • Good to hear... but this is the symptom (Score:3)

    by twivel ( 89696 ) on Wednesday February 14, 2001 @02:20PM (#431564)
    Every software patent that is overturned is a positive step in the right direction. It's sad to say that it'll take lots of these cases to get enough attention for our patent system to be reviewed.

    The sad part of the story is this: everyone I talk to about amazon and software patents has no idea of the problem. It seems like over half of even the technical people are not aware of the problem. How do we increase publicity on the problems with the software patents?

    For our voice to be heard, we need to make sure everyone understands the problems. For our government to act against the wishes of big companies (those who like patents), it takes lots of public outcry. It's just sad to say, but money has way too much influence on politics.

    People need to understand that the internet exists due to the open standards found on the internet. They need to realize that trivial patents on software can be pushed through the system by merely providing a complex sounding description of their "invention".

    The patent system was designed to increase innovation for inventions. Manufacturing inventions demand patents because it requires lots of funding to setup a factory to build an invention. But software (and especially the internet) is quite a different story.

    Everyone, do your best to explain the situation. Do your best to make sure voters understand this topic. Put pressure on the legislature to change these laws.
    --
    Twivel

  • Although the idea of the "click" as obvious prior art, the actual patent touches on many idea's for the methodology of grabbing the cart information from the db, storing that data, and calling it later.

    I'm going to file for a patent for "Using the side of the hand, without using any fingers, to activate and deactivate light switches with one flip of the switch". The patent doesn't exist, it's my idea, I MUST have the right to it.

  • ...so does this mean the boycott of Amazon by all three slashdot users who bothered to boycott Amazon will soon be over?

    Well the first guy who responded to this said he was still boycotting and I am still boycotting too, especially in light of Amazon's recent anti-Union stance. I guess that is 2 of the 3 slashdoters.

  • 1-Click Patent (Score:3)

    by Kreeblah ( 95092 ) on Wednesday February 14, 2001 @02:02PM (#431567)
    I don't know how that cleared the patent office in the first place. If patents are going to be granted for technical innovations, shouldn't they be reviewed by specialists in the fields they affect?
  • Ok, so today Barns and Noble wins, tomorrow Amazon will win, and then next maybe Barns and Noble will win again.

    The real winners always have and always will be the lawyers.
  • I'm still boycotting also. So I guess that makes me the third.
    Not only that, I sent a e-mail (yes, I should have sent a real letter, but I didn't) to them telling them why they wouldn't be getting my business anymore. I intend to boycott them even if the courts strike down the patent. The only way they will ever get my business back is if they admit they were wrong to file the patent.
    --Ty
  • Innovation flows from the notion that someone can earn money off their hard work and clever ideas, but it certainly also follows that patents on basic innovations can do more damage than good. Balance. That's the key.
  • What makes you think that BN wants to change the tide of IP law? They just happen to be on the wrong side of the fence this time around.
  • Sadly you are right. However, that also means that patents have played their role in society as an incentive to promote innovation and production.

    - Steeltoe
  • Something as basic as say...oh, I don't know, a hyperlink?
  • I have never shopped at Amazon because of this stupidness - but if this patent is over turned and they back down - should I (or more importantly Will you) go back to using amazon ?
  • My understanding is that the patent office is totally overloaded with patents...there is often minimal review of these sort of things.
  • I don't know how that cleared the patent office in the first place They used the 1-Click Patenting tecnology.
  • Or better yet pop up windows...

    The whole point being that they can sue anyone who dares to try implimenting such policies. Lets get rid of selections of the month and popups at a single stroke!
    --
  • How can they call it "1-click ordering" if you have to click 2 times just to open up the window?
  • If I was an investor, I'd want to know why Amazon is so intent on giving money to lawyers to protect a buisness model that isn't even making them any money.

    The 1-click patent has always been part of a war between Barnes & Nobles and Amazon. The fact that it touched off so many passions on Slashdot is just an unexpected side effect. Read my earlier post [slashdot.org] about the punches that B&N has thrown Amazon or even better do a search for Amazon, B&N and the words lawsuit or sue and you'll be rather surprised to see the amount of blows that have been thrown by both parties. The rivalry between both companies is similar to the irrational hatreds that run deep within the Sun and Microsoft camps. The reason few geeks know about is that it's been mainly news for the book industry and few else.

    After all, you'll note that Amazon hasn't sued anyone else for violating their patent.
  • I agree that Amazon has full claim to the patent. And as far as I'm concerned, they're welcome to it.

    Everybody whines about how obvious it was, but tell me this -- if it wasn't patented, and every online retailer had it as an option on their site, would you really want to use it?

    One-click is bad news waiting to happen. It's ordering a really bad movie late at night when you're not thinking straight. It's having your roommate or co-worker ordering stuff and putting it on your credit card. It's paying too much on shipping because 45 minutes later you want to add something else to your shopping cart.

    Amazon can keep One-Click. I don't want it.
    ------
    WWhhaatt ddooeess dduupplleexx mmeeaann??

  • Finding out what chemical cures what illness is a lot of it. Once that is out, copying is easy, and POOF goes millions or maybe even hundreds of millions of dollars of investment. The copier gets for free that that chemical is safe and effective and what it is and what disease it is for.

    Then explain why DuPont spent 3x as much on PR than they did on R&D.
    Molog

    So Linus, what are we doing tonight?

  • 1 down, so many more to go! (Score:3)

    by ClubStew ( 113954 ) on Wednesday February 14, 2001 @02:09PM (#431582) Homepage

    Now hopefully they start going after other frivilous patents like British Telecomm (the hyper-link) and AltaVista. In both cases (and so many more), prior art has been shown but the patent office still issues patents! Are they stupid or just dump? Perhaps the patent lawyers that worked on the cases should be looked into, too, and barred from patent cases if nothing else.

    This is clearly a case of companies grabbing technology and honing it for money and name-sake, but they didn't invent it! This is bad business practice as well, and I urge you /. readers to keep usage of such sites to a minimum (obviously you can't with the hyperlink very easily).

    Maybe it's time courts (like the Supreme Court?) start evaluating whether or not people should be able to patent certain technologies that have become a mainstay in the Internet community, like XML, HTTP, the hyperlink, SGML, indexes, etc. If companies keep privatizing what they don't own in the first place, bye-bye Internet, hello big-brother rule again!

  • It is a lot more than just disclosure of secrets. If you think that pharmaceuticals are only made by secret techniques, you are wrong.

    Finding out what chemical cures what illness is a lot of it. Once that is out, copying is easy, and POOF goes millions or maybe even hundreds of millions of dollars of investment. The copier gets for free that that chemical is safe and effective and what it is and what disease it is for.

    All he has to do is start a factory, and drive the first maker out of business.

    Sorta sucks in my book. Obviously, not in yours.

  • Opinion (Score:5)

    by Artagel ( 114272 ) on Wednesday February 14, 2001 @02:48PM (#431584) Homepage
    You can get the opinion at either Findlaw(HTML) [findlaw.com] or at the Federal Circuit(MS-WORD) [fedcir.gov] web pages.
  • Are they stupid or just dump?

    This is kinda ironic, huh? :-)
  • I think that the /. community wouldn't mind getting rid of Method based patents that require open protocols to achive.
  • You know what really makes me happy is the fact that it's the big companies paying the bills for court decisions that otherwise the little guys might have had to fight for. Think about what would have happened if ThinkGeek had tried to use a one-click system, or FatBrain.

    I'm really surprised more companies aren't fighting for the same rights we are. Why aren't the MP3 patent holders fightiing alongside Napster? There is MUCH less incentive for me to pay for MP3 software (and they get a cut of that purchase price) without Napster. Why aren't the hardware producers fighting laws saying they pay royalties to the RIAA for things like tape recorders? Why aren't DVD player makers fighting on the side of DeCSS? Why isn't Microsoft fighting Apple's assertions of control over the Aqua interface?

    I mean really, a bunch of people are fighting RAMBUS! I'm surprised we don't hear more of this.

    MyopicProwls

  • Uhm right, so your saying that just because I store a users password encrypted in a cookie and give htem a very simnilar feature they can patent it, BS its a logical extension of a well developed intranet/web app.

    NExt, so your saying because a user can click "once" in my application and it pulls up some information from a database amazon somehow has a patent on this?????

    Puh lease, its a good idea, but you have to keep inovating to stay alive, you cant just sit on technology and pray the competition doesnt pass you buy.

    You have to continue to develop and add useful features, so what if the competition has 9 million coders and can do the same, if you continually do it and continually provide better content and a useful product that is more pleasing and easy to use than you will come out on top unless you have bonehead marketing.

    So dont tell me this is fair, it is not.

    Screw that im patenting mouse clicks in a browser, that is what hte amazon patent is. Yeah business logic my ass, that took their developers a good month to implement at best...Yes they had to be careful when delaing with a single click to buy something, but hey you should alkways be careful you dont desserve a patent for careful coding.

    IT is just BS, thats my opinon. You are entitlted to yours I just disagree :-)

    Jeremy

  • Neah... It'll be more like opening up a microsoft package.

    By downloading this HTML page, you hearby agree to pay us $3000 for the products you see on this page.

    Thank you for shopping at XXXXXX.com


  • 1-click patent. (Score:3)

    by mini me ( 132455 ) on Wednesday February 14, 2001 @02:22PM (#431590)
    Associated Press
    Washington, D.C.

    With all the hype of 1-click patents, the patent office has decided that they would like to actaully implement such a solution. Anyone will be able to create thier patents with just one click from the patent office's web site with this new system being introduced. A spokesman with the patent office stated "We at the patent office have decided that we would like to move in to the 21st century. To do this we will leave behind the cumbersome ways of registering patents like we have in the past and move to our new 1-click system of registering patents." This new method of 1-click patents will make it easier then ever to register a patent. This plan was annonced just after the appeals court put Amazon's 1-click patent in question.
  • How many ways can you possibly do it? Like the Rambus case the other day, if there is a small number of ways to do something, someone else could easily come up with the same method by chance. (This is especially likely when you have thousands of individuals trying to come up with user-friendly shopping systems.) On the flipside, if there are so many ways to do something that someone could easily modify the method to avoid infringing on the patent, it's not worthwhile to get a patent in the first place. Patents are fine when they're protecting a brilliant idea that nobody else would have thought of, but Amazon's "idea" doesn't seem to be so incredible.
  • Nope, never ordered from them, probably never will. I just go to bookpool.com [bookpool.com] for technical books. Their prices are much much better, and their shipping is actually reasonable. I generally don't even visit their site; I've probably only been there a handful of times.

    I haven't yet felt the need to order movies online, but if I did, I'd go to noamazon.com [noamazon.com] and pick out one of the vendors there.

    --

  • That's terrible! That encorages them to grant all the patents they can get away with!

    Don't they essentially do that already?
  • If you look at it, Amazon probably got what they wanted, which is make Barnes and Noble.com waste resources in the courts for over a year (Since December 1999) and to make them remove the "one-click" shopping with their affliate stores. Believe me, I'm pretty pissed that the courts made Bn.com remove its version of "one-click" payment. This is such as stupid patent that Bn.com should be compensated for their legal fees and any possible revenues! Unfortunately, that requires cash, something that both companies need to spend elsewhere.

  • Good news... (Score:3)

    by Yu Suzuki ( 170586 ) on Wednesday February 14, 2001 @02:10PM (#431595) Homepage
    It's nice to hear that are some clueful courts out there that are actually paying attention to the issues behind these suits ;).

    Remember, though, this is just a ruling on the injunction, not on the actual court cases. An injunction is simply used as a preliminary step to prevent one side or the other from significantly damaging the other; there was obviously no need to apply an injunction here as Barnes and Noble's use of a one-click shopping scheme has only a tenuously connection at best to damages to Amazon. An injunction not a final decision by any means. (Note that the Napster "ruling" was also just a ruling on an injunction.)

    A full trial is still on its way (starting in September, according to the story), so we could see a different result then -- or the same one. (Barnes and Noble actually stands a better chance of victory in a full trial, as their lawyers will have more of a chance to outline the flaws in the "one-click shopping" patent. Amazon would want to put this case through as quickly as possible so that the jury wouldn't get to hear all the arguments that could be levied against them.)

    Yu Suzuki

  • Because: a) they believe that if a process is being copied by their competition then its a worthwhile process - therefore has a licensing value that translates into possible revenue, which they could use, b) if they don't sue in protection of their patents they'll get sued by their shareholders for negligence and incompetence ("The management has not been actively protecting the company patents, thus causing damages to us, the shareholders"), c) Amazon believes it will eventually turn a net profit through use of various "innovative" business methods, of which it believes 1-click buying is one, its an advantage that could allow them to turn a profit at their competitions cost so its an advantage worth exploitng. And a patent is not necessarily a monopoly. And I don't work for them or agree with the 1-click patent, I'm explaining the thinking behind these suits.
  • It seems like over half of even the technical people are not aware of the problem. Perhaps over half of the technical people are aware that some individuals and groups consider software patents a problem, and simply disagree with them.

  • Re:Money Grubbers (Score:5)

    by SubtleNuance ( 184325 ) on Wednesday February 14, 2001 @03:17PM (#431598) Journal
    I'm really surprised more companies aren't fighting for the same rights we are. Why aren't the MP3 patent holders fightiing alongside Napster? There is MUCH less incentive for me to pay for MP3 software (and they get a cut of that purchase price) without Napster

    The reason is most International Commerce at this level is happening in the same circles. There are massive Groups, Technology Partners, Associations etc etc etc where you will find that 95% of MultiNatinonals are in bed with one another. Why would MS want to fight Apple? They own ~10% of Apple. Why would Frauenhoffer want to sue the RIAA? They are probably involved in half a dozen 'Audio Technology Consortium' bullshit Non-Competition clubs.

    The answer to alot of the the 'World Trade' crap were seeing (otherwise known as the Great Capatalist Swindle) would be to have the UN create a World Declaration of Citizen/Environmental/Social Rights and include *ALOT* of strong Anti-Trust legislation.

    Then have all UN members ratify it...

  • Almost the entire reader base? I certainly hope not. Anybody who works in innovative industries should embrace at least the concept of patents to prevent others from taking your ingenious idea and marketing a knockoff without giving you a dime. I think what /. readers and most rational people disagree with are ridiculous "common sense" patents that don't protect innovation, they stifle it by protecting the simple building blocks of real progress.
  • I think I will patent a method for screening out stupid patents! I get rich, no more one-click, everybody wins!!!

    But wait, what if the patent office thinks my patent is stupid. And what if, in doing so, they used MY method for screening stupid patents?

    The paradoxical recursion created by this could eventually earn me every bit of wealth known to man! WooHoo!
  • The constitutional grounds for patents (in the USA) is about promoting progress, not promoting monopolies

    Exactly. Without patents, there is no incentive for the little guy to innovate. As soon as you have an idea and start to bring it to market, a large company with huge infrastructure will reverse engineer it, copy it, and put you out of business. In a system without patents, only large companies will be motivated to invent, because they can get things to market fast.

    As for the ethical issue, I think the system takes care of that. If I take something that you patented, add a new twist and patent my use of your idea, I still would have to license your idea in order to go to market! You may think that is stifling, especially if you refuse all such licensing requests, but the alternative is that you might never have bothered with your idea in the first place if you couldn't protect it.
  • The problem is that they didn't work for their 1-click patent, they just stole an obvious idea by patenting it.

    Buying products/services without giving your credit card/personal information has existed for a long time. Just because it happens over the Internet instead of happening on the phone or through mail doesn't mean it's an invention.
  • It's so obvious I always do it without even thinking about it, just because i'm lazy. In a stateless protocol like HTTP, it's easier to write a script that takes all the input from one source and makes a complete order from it than to validate it with 2 or 3 steps and keep track of everything with hidden tags or cookies.

    When the basic code has been writen and it's time to make it user friendly and error proof, I remove the one click functionality and add validation and confirmations before the order is completed.

    Which means Amazon has patented their programmer's lazyness. How can this not be obvious?
  • The appellate court stated:

    In this case, we find that the district court committed clear error by misreading the factual content of the prior art references cited by BN and by failing to recognize that BN had raised a substantial question of invalidity of the asserted claims in view of these prior art references.
    The court discussed several specific prior art references.
  • Well, first off, Amazon didn't actually patent the online shopping cart - - in fact, Amazon cited consumer frustration with the online shopping cart as one of the reasons it sought to develop it's one-click method. Second, and more importantly, read the appellate court decision. It does not finally resolve the question, since as other /.ers have noted it only vacates the District Court's injunction, but it certainly suggests that Amazon does not not have a valid patent because the "innovative" one-click method had been previously disclosed by others, and was thus not patentable. The decision describes scores of prior art references....

  • Considering the financial health of both Amazon and Barnes and Noble.Com, I wonder if either of them will be in business long enough for this suit to get settled one way or the other.

  • I hope Apple saved their reciept! (Score:5)

    by fatmantis ( 218867 ) on Wednesday February 14, 2001 @02:00PM (#431607) Homepage
    I would be asking for a refund!
  • .. It's between lawyers, now. The richest side will win. I have faith that eventually justice and right will prevail, although the number of bodies left behind in this endless struggle will be daunting.
  • Question is: will they "pull an Amazon" in the future and do something equally offensive to consumers? Or will they show that they give a $hit and conduct business in a consumer-friendly way?

    Unfortunately, it's fairly likely that they will "pull an Amazon" as you put it.

    The word "doublethink" coined in Orwell's book "1984" is quite applicable here. B&N are undoubtedly trying to make themselves look like the 'white knight', overturning the useless patent. However, I bet if they think of some equally obvious technology and patent it, they will somehow manage to justify it to the Fox News watching masses.

  • I was hoping that they'd make the right decision, and they did. Now if only some other patents could be challenged for validity...
  • What kind of a moron would hold that patent valid?

    Oh, wait a minute, the government has about 300 morons like that in the House of Representatives alone.

  • It all boils down to "useful/nonuseful people concepts" and their resulting rating schemes, in a thousand years this type of superstition will be laughted at.

    (social ecology)

  • Think about what would have happened if ThinkGeek had tried to use a one-click system, or FatBrain.

    You mean "FatBrain, a wholly-owned subsidiary of Barnes & Noble.com"?

    (I was surprised to learn that, myself, but it's true -- we're yet another step closer to Microbarnesandibmcdonaldsmorris!)

  • The USPTO has an impossible mandate and insufficient funds. I hear a lot of cries for reform, and not a lot of specific suggestions. Here's one off the top of my head: the patent office should get a percentage of the proceeds of patent licensing fees, and use them to hire real domain experts. A dicier proposition: patent trials should involve peer review. Open to a lot of abuse from peers, though. No worse than the current "the truth is whatever twelve hand-picked idiots vote for" system.
  • They do lose all the money spent on the patent in the first place; plus all the legal fees went to waste...

    I am the Raxis.

  • Although I agree that it seems somewhat ridiculous to patent something like "one-click shopping", I'm glad to see Amazon fight Barnes and Noble. The thing is, Amazon has some really great features that you can't really get from a brick and mortar shop (ie Searchable customer reviews, recommendations based on past purchases, etc.) Bn came two years after Amazon and arrogantly started copying Amazon. Bn has ALWAYS played catch-up with bells and whistles. Currently, it's "Wish List" only allows the owner of the list to view it, so I can't see what's on my mother's list unless I was logged in as her. On an emotional level, I like to see a small company (as Amazon started out) be able to use innovation to grow. If Bn can just copy every innovation Amazon comes up with, Amazon doesn't have a chance.

  • 1-click technology (Score:3)

    by deft ( 253558 ) on Wednesday February 14, 2001 @02:15PM (#431617) Homepage
    Although the idea of the "click" as obvious prior art, the actual patent touches on many idea's for the methodology of grabbing the cart information from the db, storing that data, and calling it later.

    i think its a pretty lame thing to patent, but the methodology involved was first developed at amazon, so they may have some claim to it.
  • Just when I though there was only one person I love on this Valentine's day. Now I love Barnes & Noble besides my gf, Helga.

    This is a fight that needs to be fought, although it will still be the comsumer that loses out on this because both sides will be spending quite a bit of their resources to fight this.
  • Its a line from the Sega Genesis game "Zero Wing". A game primarily known for its incredibly bad translation from Japanese to English.
  • Does this mean the patent on Despair's logo is also in jeopardy? Say it ain't so.. :-(

  • amazing (Score:3)

    by Kara B. ( 315771 ) on Wednesday February 14, 2001 @02:08PM (#431633) Homepage
    It never ceases to amaze me how companies that are struggling to turn a profit are willing to spend money on silly lawsuits.
    If I was an investor, I'd want to know why Amazon is so intent on giving money to lawyers to protect a buisness model that isn't even making them any money.
    Honestly, it's like having a patent on "exfoliating creams for ring tailed lemurs" or something. It may or may not be patentable, but if you can't turn a profit on the invention even with a government enforced monopoly, is it worth patenting? Is the pattent then worth enforcing? Of course not.
    --Kara

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