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Fingerprints for School Lunches 46

Posted by michael from the mystery-meat dept.
arkansas writes "CNN has a report about a new program in a few Pennsylvania schools in which students' fingerprints are used to pay for school lunches. The system's manufacturers claim the info can't be used to identify students, but the ACLU has some complaints."
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Fingerprints for School Lunches More

Fingerprints for School Lunches

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  • Tobacco products are not addicative
    and Windows NT 4.0 and 5.0 are reliable operating systems...
  • Privacy vs Paranoid? That is the question. It is a very thin line to walk. On one hand I can see the ACLU's view and on the other I can side with the views of the program itself. I have no problem with figerprinting for lunch, in and of itself. In fact this technogly has been used in many other areas for security, credit cards, Access to ones workplace. Even for access to files on ones computer via a scanner in a keyboard. The problem lies not in the technogly but in the garding of the data itself. I had stated in another /. article the same thing.

    What I beleive we need to focus on, and the ACLU should as well. Is not stoping the use of techonlogly but making sure that the oprogram is used ONLY for the means it was set out for and not abused. Inheartly I think most people would not have a problem with this if it were not for the fact that throughout history we have been shown that anytime there is a wayto abuse a program or system, the govertment or even private business can and will do so for there own gain.

    Also using the "bully" examples to me just makes me want to grab a soap box and start the "Parantal Responsibility" song and dance all over again. I have said it many times and will again, we ALL need to be more pro-active in our lives, weather it is concerning, what our chirldern do, see, or hear, to what is going on in our communities as well as the country as a whole. Once we start taking action, and here it would be making sure that the information being used for the lucnh program stays stricly for that program only, we will become a more stable and unified body. To many times do we lose a peice of our privacy simply because we were too busy or distracted by something else to notice. we must Fight for our rights, not just sit and complain wihen they are gone because then it is too late.

    Few can be heard, but Many can not be ignored.
    Just my $0.01999 worth. The Zaphod
  • As usual, if you don't want to go along with this little invasion of your privacy you're tarred as a whacko. See the lunch lady's comments - "They think the FBI's going to get them or something." Why don't you want to give your fingerprints to us? We're _good_ people. We would never, ever, ever abuse your trust. We promise!
  • Treat lunch money bullies as what they really are -- armed robbers. You know, 20 year prison sentences...
  • Biometrics is something the school bully can't beat out of you.

    True, until they dip your hand in the 6-molar H2SO4 in chemistry class.

    But, if you were to get shot at close range in the head with a .45 hollowpoint several times such that your face would no longer be recognizable (as such is certainly wont to happen in our schools today), then the Meal-Creation-Laborers can pull your arm over to the scanner and identify you.

    See? It has practical uses!
    Thus sprach DrQu+xum.
  • Just let there be one method of exchanging biometric ID for liquidity, and the human pieces-parts will start flying. after all, "it's not my finger..."

    Then use something that is expendable, like shit. Kids bring their feces to the lunch lady in a plastic bag and use it for ID. Then that day's identification method becomes tomorrow's Salisbury Steak (extra gravy if a stomach flu goes around.)

    Thus sprach DrQu+xum.

  • cut (Score:1)

    by Deanasc ( 201050 )
    I have an uncle who was robbed. His wedding ring wouldn't fit over his knuckle so they cut his finger off. If they'll cut off a finger to get a $50 ring how much money can I get for Bill Gates' hand? Or even worse do I loose my whole life savings in an industrial accident when my hand gets crushed in a 200 ton press?

  • My viewpoint (Score:3)

    by macdaddy ( 38372 ) on Thursday January 25, 2001 @01:26PM (#483509) Homepage Journal
    I can kinda see where the ACLU is going with this. Personally if I was a kid in one of those schools, I'd refuse to give them my fingerprint. I don't want anyone to have my fingerprint. To date, no one has officially taken my fingerprint (except once when I was abducted by aliens in Texas but that's another story). I think there should be an opt-out option for those students. Assuming that they'll only fingerprint one finger, what will they do when they can't get that finger's finger print? For example, when I was in high school I broke my hand (not like CowboyNeal falling off the toilet). My hand was in a complete cast, covering the finger tips. Hand to fingerprint plaster. I also had a number of bad cuts for wood and metal shop classes. During wrestling my eigth grade year I had my right sholder wrenched from its socket in wreslting. It tore a muscle and stretched a nerve badly. I couldn't feel my right hand for a month (CowboyNeal isn't ambidextrous from what I hear so he'd probably take his life if he couldn't pleasure himself, or talk Katz into doing it for him). Since I tore that muscle, I couldn't hardly move my right arm when it had to bend at that shoulder, let along raise my arm and hand to place my non-functioning hand and finger in a particular spot. What would they do then?

    In the early years we used tickets to get our lunches. Occasionally someone would forget their ticket and I'd give them one of mine and they'd make up for it the next day. Later on we had these cards we'd scan. Occasionally someone would forget their card and I'd either have the person running the machine scan mine twice or I'd pass my card back and let that person scan it themselves (depending on who was manning the machine). What would they do with a fingerprinting system? I know some principals that would rather the student not get any lunch, regardless of the numerous studies that show how not having a full stomach can affect the learning process, and make them "learn a lesson" than let me pay twice. Sure the kid forgot but give him/her a break.

    To sum it up, I think the school district should provde another option for those students that don't want to give out that fingerprint. One other thought, public institutions are required to make public the information they gather from their students (sounds shity but remember that lawsuit against a school from a parent that wanted to see the schools firewall logs and the school refused? That's what the judge found). If that's the case, than would they have to make my fingerprint public? If that isn't the case, since the school is also a state institution, would they be required to give out my fingerprint to law enforcement (another state agency) if I'm accused of a crime, even without proof that I commited that crime? If they got my fingerprint and found me innocent, would they destroy that fingerprint record for me?

    My $.02

    --

  • However, paying for things with your thumb/finger ... could have sever downsides ...

    Nice pun.

  • 0.005% of the time a reading that should allow entry won't, and 0.0001% of the time the opposite occurs (you may want to check those).

    To calculate a false positive rate of 10^-6 you would need a sample of about 10^7: ten million people. That's thorough.

  • Maybe someone can explain this to me, cos I'm not getting it. OK, so the fingerprint is rendered down to an algorithm. True, the kid doesn't have an algorithm engraved in his finger, but why can't cops just run the finger through the same process for ID purposes?

    Kudos to the kids who refused fingerprinting.

    inigima

  • Aren't facts fun? (Score:3)

    by lairdb ( 244939 ) on Thursday January 25, 2001 @01:33PM (#483513)

    Can't quite tell, either from the CNN story, or from the vendor's page at www.foodserve.com [foodserve.com] which technology they're using, though it's clearly an optical acquisition.

    [later]

    Food Service provides a pointer to a document describing the process here [foodserve.com] (wouldn't you like some facts to throw at each other?) including specific discussion of how the data is manipulated in ways that would make it approach zero utility for statist uses. These statements are included:

    • "OK, so can my child's fingerprint data be taken off the MorphoTouch and used to re-create their fingerprint?" No. There is no way for any fingerprint computer, or for that matter, any fingerprint expert, to extract the record and reconstruct a person's fingerprint image from this data. To be clear, there is no possibility of "reverse identification" as it is called in the biometric industry.
    • "But can my child's fingerprint data be taken off the MorphoTouch and used as is on another fingerprinting system?" No. Because of the way the image is evaluated, the resulting record is useless to a forensic application.

    However, it is interesting to note that the apparent OEM, Groupe SAGEM [sagem.com] of France, is [sagem.com] indeed in the forensic AFIS business.

    Incidental note: when my work involved evaluating several of these fingerprint readers for identification, I was interested to see how many of the vendors took extra trouble to explain that their data was not compatible with forensic AFIS systems.


    --
    lairdb

  • Bullies (Score:1)

    by El ( 94934 )
    The only good thing about this, is that now when the school bully demands your lunch money, you can give him the finger -- and get away with it.
  • Oh I loved the explination of this. This is from my local newspaper, The Butler Eagle, in Butler PA. What they do is scan the finger print and enlarge or shrink it so that it is a standard size. Then they map a set of points to the print, discard the print and then compare the points to the database to find the match.

    The explanation is that they discard the print so that it can't be used. Sounds good but the logic doesn't work. All I have to do is take a print from a crime and enlarge or shink it to a standard size, use the same algorithm to map a set of points to it and compare it to the database and find my match.

    "Just because I'm paranoid does not mean that no one is following me!"
  • Is everything programming with you? Expand your vision a bit--the Constitution is an open source project!!!
  • I think that the ID Cards used at my school are completely better than fingerprinting (I've never used mine because I dont eat in the lunch room.) because what about the kids who don't wash their hands? I wouldnt want to put my finger where that nasty kids finger had been....

  • And fingers can be removed. No system is perfect.

    Cryptnotic

  • Unless I'm missing something here, it could easily help law enforcment. Take the following scenario: Someone steals a teachers purse out of her desk drawer. Fingerprints are left, say on the handle. Why can't law enforcment derive the same algorithm from those prints? And compare algorithms? Think it would be too much trouble? OK, then say a teacher is murdered in her home. Still think they wouldn't/couldn't do it ? Bet they could. In my view, it is an invasion of privacy. Interesting side note: A thumbprint is required in California to get a drivers license. When this was started, it was to help identify bodies in wrecks or whatever. I belive the thumbprint was optional at first, and then became mandatory. At the time, it wasn't very feasible to use the thumbprints to catch criminals or whatever, because of the massive time involved in searching (primarily visually) the DMV thumbprint records. Now, of course, a person can be I.D.ed in seconds from one fingerprint via scanning and computers. And don't think law enforcment isn't happy about it! And nearly every Californian age 16 or older is in that database. If you trust government, and law enforcment, and furthermore think they ALWAYS will be trustworthy, then you may not think this is a bad thing. I disagree. You only have think back to Nixon (or, if you're too young for that, to the Ramparts Division of the LAPD) to see massive abuse of power.
  • Seriously -- at my HS (back in the day...) there were all sorts of retarded/disabled people (in addition to the staff which I was quite sure was retarded).
  • Did read as far as the point where it is stated that the same company that provides these devices to the school also provides services and equipment to the FBI and other law-enforcement agencies?

    Also, if the mathematical algorithm generated by the device is unique, isn't it the same as the fingerprint itself? If it isn't unique, then what happens when two individuals' fingerprints generate the identifier?

    Although I believe in biometrics as a solution, I think it should be combined with smart card technology.

  • I went and read the CNN story, and it sounds like the ACLU is overreacting. I saw not one single complaint about the system, only complaints about what the system represents as a possible future. The fact is, all this system does is record a set of identifying points on a finger, and compare them to a database of such information. Nothing more. And I have to admit I strongly agree with the arguement about not stimatizing students that receive free and reduced-fee lunches. I received free lunches through high school, and even though not having to wait in line to pay was cool, the stigma attached to "doing something different" was harsh.
  • I can understand how the ACLU might not like this kind of "surveillance", but they should worry more about the corporations which misuse data. I mean, who really cares if fingerprint #504938294 had the sweet sweet sloppy joes two days in a row?

    I'm, actually glad to see some sensible uses of technology. And it's nice to know that we are another step closer to the Back to the Future: Part II lifestyle. However, paying for things with your thumb/finger (I think it would be better to "thumb a $100" rather than "finger a $100") could have sever downsides, for example gambling. And if you have daughters, be sure to NOT get them a VISA fingerprint.

  • This is being put up as an alternative to kids being shaken down for their lunch money. Biometrics is something the school bully can't beat out of you. This school is getting it free because it's testing the system, not providing kid's finger prints to some .gov. Don't like it? Keep paying cash (and go learn karate).
  • It's not a matter of providing info to the government regarding school lunch consumption, but a matter of submitting fingerprints to the government. As it is, the police only have the fingerprints of people who have been arrested; this system makes it easier for cops to get people's fingerprinsts. At best it lets them find people whose fingerprints are found at crime scenes. At worst this could lead to false arrests, as the accuracy of fingerprint matching has been questioned (there was a /. story on this [slashdot.org]a few months ago).

  • Things are gradual, and the actual line between when something is an invasion of privacy is thin and hard to find. I believe it better for them to make a ruckus now, than to wait for a real issue to arise.

    Besides, even if they don't stop it, school or otherwise, will be very careful before taking a second step.


    ticks = jiffies;
    while (ticks == jiffies);
    ticks = jiffies;
  • So now the bullies surround you at the fingerprint reader and say things like "okay, kid, stick you finger in". Think the school lunch lady is going to do anything about it? She just wants to go home and get off her feet, not find her car tires slashed in the parking lot. Not her jub to keep some punk in line. Bet you as long as the meals total the scans she could care less.

    Granted, you cannot currently spend someone's finger, so the impetus for most of the bully tactics are far less. All you can get for it is a meal. But the precedent is dangerous. Just let there be one method of exchanging biometric ID for liquidity, and the human pieces-parts will start flying. after all, "it's not my finger..."

  • They only get food. There's only so much they can eat. Its not as though they can sell the food on for real cash.
  • Of course having a set finger prints may not be bad either if the child happens to go missing. Finger printing children (while not required?) is generally encoured so if the child goes missing/abducted/etc, there is a somewhat reliable way to identify the child when he/she is found.
  • What about photo ID cards?

    How will they not provide it to government? Most schools are part of the government!

    What about spammers who say that if you send them email to get off their list, use that to build a list?

  • Grrr! (Score:3)

    by Snowfox ( 34467 ) <snowfox@[ ]wfox.net ['sno' in gap]> on Wednesday January 24, 2001 @04:42PM (#483531) Homepage
    Okay, kid. Gimme your lunch finger or I dunk ya in the toilet. ...what? Again? DAMN YOU! That threat used ta WORK!
  • What about photo ID cards?
    They can be stolen, even if they aren't used. Moreover, they can simply be lost.
  • IMHO, the ACLU is a bunch of people with too much free time on their hands. I say we give these guys an open source project to work on.

  • We have had finger print scanners in our school, the Royal Grammar School (Guildford) for about three years. The school is on Guildford High street, and we have had problems with people simpl walking in and stealing stuff out of the cloak rooms and music rooms.

    To rectify this a security system is being introduced in phases - first a finger print scanner for the Music Rooms, and now timed locks on all side doors and a scanner on the main one. This scanner works by just using key points on the finger. 0.005% of the time a reading that should allow entry won't, and 0.0001% of the time the opposite occurs (you may want to check those).In addition barriers to prevent vehicle access have been introduced to any vehicle acces points, which require a security card, and CCTV has been in opperation for about 5 years.

    The school is private, and so there is very little chance of any information being released to the government (particually while Blair's still in power), and the school is, in my experiance, very good at confidentiality - all pupils details are stored on an extensive database that has never, to my knowledge, been hacked. The only problem is that the school runs iMacs, which are substatially hardeer than windows to hack.

  • we are another step closer to the Back to the Future: Part II lifestyle

    Back to the Future II was neat... except for that whole your-mom-having-enormous-breasts-and-being-a-slut part.

  • I received free lunches through high school, and even though not having to wait in line to pay was cool, the stigma attached to "doing something different" was harsh.

    I paid for an entire year of my son's lunches at a Maryland public school in advance. No forgetting or losing his lunch money, no bullies taking it, it's wonderfully convenient. And as far as I know there would be no identification of free lunch vs. pre-paid lunch. It's very nice.
  • When I evaluated several OEM fingerprint readers, some of them included mention that they tested for seeing the thermal rhythm associated with a pulse, so that a severed finger could not be used.
    --
    lairdb
  • But still, if they beat up on kids, they can eat as much as they want for free.

    ----
  • I don't really mean to be an extremist but, it's very obvious that this is another step towards ending privacy. When every student that wants to eat has to divulge a very senstive peice of information simply for nutrition.. What about the old way of an ID card maybe?
  • Dental records will do in a pinch, as will a DNA sample from the body (I say body because I presume you're talking about abucted and then found dead) compared with the parents' DNA. Fingerprinting your kids *may* have been a good idea 20 years ago, but now---now it's just a way to match biometrics with a social security number.

    ----
  • The fact is, all this system does is record a set of identifying points on a finger

    That's what fingerprint analysis is - comparing sets of points to other known points. That's how the FBI's fingerprint computers work. So, claiming that 'all the system does is record a set of indentifying points' is a little bit of understatement.

    -jerdenn

  • "Only a mathematical algorithm remains in the system after registration -- not fingerprint images."

    So, the images are being discarded but the algorithm is kept. And they think that can't be used to identify someone? Why do they think there's any difference between a unique fingerprint image and a unique algorithm? This system is reducing the children to a piece of data (owned by the school district?) and moving us one step closer to a more facist state.

    And don't even get me started on the whole Revelation/666 issue here!

  • Possibly -- our testing didn't extend to that.
    --
    lairdb
  • We have cards at my school for checking out books and stuff, which is cool. No-one really gets 'beat up' though, becuase all you need to do to get expelled is get in a fight. Not even start it, just get into one. The worst I ever had to deal with is when a kid gave me a shot to the kidney, and I turned around and returned one to the gut. I don't know what I was thinking, seeing as he was a good foot taller then me, but as I saw it, I needed to stand up for myself.

    I was suspended for a week.
    The kid who hit me: A nights detention.
    This may be a little off topic, but he got away with just that night because I 'instigated it', meaning that he had more freinds to lie for him. The worst of it: one of them wasn't even in the class.

    The moral: I should be home schooled. I'd have more time to code.

    "I have not slept a wink"

  • In Northern Michigan, we pay for the lunches by checks sent about monthly, and it works fine. But the lunch staff has to know the students. It's not possible in the biggest schools -- not that the giant schools are such a good idea anyway, except maybe for high school.

    But the school in the news report had only 700 students. If the staff needs a fingerprint machine to recognize the students, there's a deeper problem...
  • If they decided to use id cards with magnetic strips instead would they be tracking the kids via the cards? The advantage to finger printing is other kids can not steal other cards. And it would be fairly hard to steal some kids finger and no one notices that Johnny has no more fingers.
  • Everyone seems to be making a huge deal out of the fact that the school district would have data identifying a student by his fingerprint and that under law, they might have to release the data.

    What's the big deal? According to the manufacturers of the scanners, the data used to identify a print cannot be reassembled into a real fingerprint image. There's no way this could help, say, law enforcement to match a suspect with a dusted print. The police need a real image from which to compare prints, and you can't just feed a dusted print through one of these things.

    There's way too much hype over this. People see "fingerprint" and "school" and connect those terms with "government agency," and turn it into a big privacy issue. It's not. And frankly, the system makes a lot more sense than passing money around at lunch.

    Anyway, that's my two cents, for what it's worth.

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