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Europe Votes Against Software Patents 85

Posted by Hemos from the good-news-for-smart-people dept.
BrightIce writes "It seems like things are getting better in Europe regarding software patents." The text of that article is in German, but thanks to Sebastian Bunka of Austria for providing me this translation: "On the CONVENTION ON THE GRANT OF EUROPEAN PATENTS all 20 memberstates have decided to not change the regulations to the patentability of software and to allow by this basically no patents on software." Else, you can check the fish, but the above is a better translation.
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Europe Votes Against Software Patents More

Europe Votes Against Software Patents

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  • Re:Oh dear (Score:5)

    by kyz ( 225372 ) on Wednesday November 22, 2000 @04:26AM (#607486) Homepage
    i'm in the business of making money from my code, so i like being able to protect my product and my I.P This decusion makes it almost imposible to do that now, and that can only damage the growing IT market across the EU.

    An excellent troll. You're conveniently forgetting many things - firstly, that copyrights protect your ideas from 'theft' in the largest respect. Secondly, that pure mathematical algorithims are still patentable - unlike in America.

    While you might moan about 'protection', you'll find that most patent holders are large multinational corporations like IBM. How fair is it to find that you infringe some vague patent of theirs? How fair is it if you publish an innovative image processing method in a journal, then someone else patents your idea, and tries to charge you because the patent office is too fucking lazy to read the appropriate journals?

    How can you dare innovate in a market based on fear, uncertainty and doubt - at any time, some IP company with no products of their own comes to sue you because you inadvertently stepped on a patent landmine? Does your product have multitasking? That's illegally patented in the EU. So are CGI scripts on a Web server. So is hardware emulation used for software testing. Breaking down pathnames into directories and files is patented!

    There is no doubt in my mind that software patents cause more harm than good. The copyright law, contract law and trade secret law is sufficient protection for software. Using patents on software is an abuse of the patent process.
  • Then don't use GPL'ed code, make your own code. I know it's more expensive in terms of resources, but you can copyright your product then. Using GPL'ed code isn't an argument for patenting, it's moreover an argument for saving money by using existing code written by programmers kind enough not to charge money for it.
  • Else, you can check the fish, but the above is a better translation.

    That sentence looks like it was written by the fish, too.

  • Re:Finally, some sense. (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    >And Austria recently elected a government that, from what I've read, seems somewhere between Pat Buchanan and David Duke on the political spectrum.

    Now, I am from Austria, and I can tell you the freedom party is not even close to pat buchanan.
    they are close to Al Gore (from the left side), but still better.

    don't misunderstand me. i'am totally against our current governement, i voted green, and i'm with, whenever there is an important demonstration.
    but after all, the freedom party is totally against death penalty, and they are not religious at all.

    and although they are populist in the campaigns, in office they are more pragmatically.
    for example, they campaigned "lifelong must remain live long", but now the minister of justice (fp-member) said lifelong without a good chance to come out after about 20 years is barbaric.

    some of their members are xenophobic and racist, but they would never admit that.
    anyway, they didn't change immigration policy so much. it is now just as bad as switzerlands.
    they campaigned against the eu, but now, they are pro eu-enlargement.

    they are right-wing in a european context.
    in the usa, they wouldn't be.
  • Working/residency: sort of free. As long as you've got a job it's easy enough. See this page [cec.org.uk] for a short overview of the issues, from a UK perspective.
  • Since this is usually imponce this is usually impossible to protect with copyright,

    No, it is always protected by copyright; without copyright the GPL has no meaning.

    What you are saying is "We use other people's work for free but we then have to do likewise. Pity us". Well, no. If you don't like the GPL then don't use GPL code, make your own and you can keep the "IP" to yourself and good luck to you.

    The implication of your whine is that you can't use your "IP" well enough to see off other people who use it, even though you understand it better (since you wrote it) and had it before anyone else. Moreover, anyone that does use your "IP" will have to release their code, which you can then use. What is your problem?

    TWW

  • Sometimes EU members vote against EU regulation on matters they agree with, because they believe it should be up to the individual nations to decide.

  • Source Documents (Score:3)

    by tagishsimon ( 175038 ) on Wednesday November 22, 2000 @06:09AM (#607493) Homepage
    All of the source documents arising from the current conference are posted here [european-p...office.org] . The purpose of the conference itself is described here [european-p...office.org]. I'll try & find which document covers software patents specifically.

    The whole schebang has to do with "European countries' collective political determination to establish a uniform patent system in Europe." Note, though, that from trawling through Europa [eu.int] earlier today, I get the impression that the final aim - a European Patent - has not yet been reached. So for now, member states signed up to EPO, it may be assumed, will amend their national legislation to match the EPO resolution.

  • Re:Makes sense (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I think you meant "for once" instead of "sometimes". Seriously though, I breathed a sigh of relief when I read this article. Who wants to go down the road of patenting clicking on a button to order and dispatch a product automatically. Then hauling every other e-tailer into court to squeeze as much money out of them. Maybe when the next election for MEP's comes round I won't give my Irish reps such a hard time.
  • The were all invented in America!

    I know this because they're all *right there* when I click on "The Internet", and my computer is here in Virginia!

    --
  • You're confusing patents with copyright. You patent algorithms, and copyright protect code.

    Your code is protected by copyright, which is valid in all countries that have signed the Berne convention, so Microsoft can't just rip it. And if your code has been importen into the US, I guess it can be considered prior art, and thus the algorithm behind it isn't patentable.

  • Unfortunately, the European contries are at least as xenophobic as US, probably more so. Just about all EU contries have political parties whose main agenda is to keep foreigner out.

    Those parties you refer to are really somewhat tame compared to Bush's platform. Oh yeah, they're racist and shit, and when you compare the numbers, you realize that they haven't killed as many people as Mr. Bush with the death penalty.


    --

  • You can not stand against the patent machine of the large multi-nationals or the Patent-it-and-sue-em companies out there

    Yes - Actually we can, because people elect governments - people make laws. I am very actively 'standing against' large multi-nationals, I protest, I write letters, I rant (obviously) on /., I vote progressively. The point being that this "Global Free Market" is BS (and Software patents are just one issue we are farmiliar w/ b/c we are tech types) - The whole goddamn system is going to get ripped down. Now if you have a choice - AND YOU DO - what are you going to do? Be part of the "you cant stand against them - lets goto the mall and masterbate" types who know the system needs big change -OR- someone who says "this is wrong, I refuse to lay down to MultiNationals changing the world to enslave me and everyone else". Simple - its our choice not 'theirs'

    Ive made my choice.

  • The problem is not so much the EU as the European Patent Convention (EPC) and its patent office, the EPO. Most countries are members of both, but some non-EU members are part of the EPC. (And some EU members might leave the EPC - IIRC a German minister (Green party) said Germany would leave the EPC if software patents were allowed.)

    Now the Convention specifically excludes computer programs from patentability, but the EPO has managed to bend the law by saying that many computer programs 'are not computer programs as such'. Hence the swpat horror gallery, full of patents on computer programs 'not as such'.

    The EPO would like to change the law (the Convention) to remove this exclusion, letting the law 'catch up' with the EPO's bending of it. This would give real weight to the patents already granted, which at present are of dubious validity.

    What has happened is that EPC members have voted to wait for the outcome of the European Commission's (ie the EU's) consultation before reaching a decision. This makes it even more important to send your comments on software patents to the Commission and possibly to your national political representatives.

    The Commission have commissioned (!) a slightly biased but not totally stupid report on the economic impact of software patents, and are invit ing comments [eu.int]. What the Commission recommends will heavily influence the decision made by EPC members.

  • >Patents are what are socialistic; they're about >as blatant a form of industrial policy as >exists. In a true free market, people would be >free to copy someone else's invention and >undercut their price

    And why would people bother to create new designs if they were going to be stolen by some large corporation ? We'd all have to work for large corporations in veils of secrecy! No patents are just as bad as too many patents, there is some sort of equilibrium in the middle.

    Patents help competition if used appropriately - but just like anything else, they can be abused - the same goes for virtually everything else in society. I am sure there are endless analogies.

    The problem is that the "spirit" of patents has been long lost into the quagmire of technicalities, patenting everything and anything and various other forms of abuses. Part of this is the nature of how society is changing, perhaps in the future, patents will be seen as redundant, because society has moved into a new plane where the free flow of ideas is the way to go.

  • So that's why the US has the war on drugs...
    --
  • At least while sober. :-)
  • I think in Europe, people are a little more tolerant to others moving to their countries, and are aware of the fact that their country is not the only one in the world.

    Hardly. Both France and Germany have very active and militant anti-immigrant political parties. And Austria recently elected a government that, from what I've read, seems somewhere between Pat Buchanan and David Duke on the political spectrum.

    It's probably the same as the hypocrisy in the way people think of Canada and Mexico in the US. You're only considered an immigrant if you're poor, the wrong color, and speak the wrong language.

    --
    Bush's assertion: there ought to be limits to freedom

  • Re:Oh dear (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    No, copyright would protect my product and code from theft, but it would not stop another person simply copying a clever or inventive solution to a problem. For example, if i produce a system that allows a user to visualise a certain problem, there is nothing to stop someone from riping this idea off, and possibly implementing it as an Open Source application. That undercuts my product by a large margin, and in the end it serioiusly undermines my effort to make a living.

    T. Lee

  • Change the headline... (Score:4)

    by gadders ( 73754 ) on Wednesday November 22, 2000 @04:51AM (#607506)
    It should be "Useless Corrupt Tw*ts at the EU Finally Manage to do Something Right, but it was Probably an Accident."
  • Denmark did not change its constitution. The constitution already grants the parliament the right to give up some national independence after a referendum (which is why the Danes have to vote on each EU treaty).

    Whether EU law or national law takes precedence in Denmark is somewhat unclear.
  • Patents are what are socialistic; they're about as blatant a form of industrial policy as exists. In a true free market, people would be free to copy someone else's invention and undercut their price.

  • Xenophobia (Score:3)

    by Per Abrahamsen ( 1397 ) on Wednesday November 22, 2000 @06:26AM (#607509) Homepage
    Unfortunately, the European contries are at least as xenophobic as US, probably more so. Just about all EU contries have political parties whose main agenda is to keep foreigner out. These parties usually get about 10% of the vote, sometimes more (like in Austria). They have a huge influence as the mainstream parties try to adopt their politics in order to compete for the same narrow minded part of the poulation. In Denmark, all the popular parties compete on who can be toughest in foreigners, and the most popular stories in the media are about criminal foreigners or decendents of foreigners.

    Of course, "foreigner" does not include other EU citizens, or even North Americans. It is only Moslems and Africans and poor people in general who "we" want to keep out.

  • Re:Finally, some sense. (Score:3)

    by Forkenhoppen ( 16574 ) on Wednesday November 22, 2000 @07:47AM (#607510)
    1) Celcius. That whole Farenheit thing is stupid. It makes much more sense for the temperature of water to freeze to be 0. I don't want this Farenheit B.S. anymore.

    2) Metric system. All of our cars (that last more than 3 years) are built using this system of measurement. Our cars have kilometers per hour below miles per hour. Our drugs are measured in this system. It is a much easier system to remember, and is much better organized than the crazy crap we use.

    Forgive me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this already attempted once before? If I remember correctly, I think what happened was that a bunch of morons started shooting down roadsigns, etc.

    Not that I'm saying that it'd automatically be doomed to failure, if it were attempted again. I'm just saying that you should wait for that sector of the population to die out before attempting to reimplement metric.

    A much better idea would be to start replacing existing signs, etc., with a dual system, whereby information is listed in both imperial and metric.

    Even then, I wouldn't be too optimistic. Forgive my Canadian bias, but Americans just don't seem all that flexible in this regard. It would require changing school curriculum, and seeing as what's taught to children appears to be a somewhat taboo topic.. (just look at the arguments over creationism) I doubt you're going to be able to get the population to change, unless something drastic happens. (And I mean something drastic. Look how little came of the Columbine shootings; instead of going after the source, or trying to figure out the truth, you see the media and the police demonizing a whole innocent sector of the population. I get the sense that, even if something on the scale of Golipoli happened to a group of Americans due to an imperial/metric mixup, they'd find some way to shrug it off as a result of poor schooling by their teachers, or blame it on the shoes they were wearing.)

    In the meantime, if you're interested in moving to a place that uses metric, I should point out that Canada's always an option. We've had metric for a good while now, and for a lot of us, it's the only one we know. (Although there are quite a few imperial mainstays. There's a tendancy to measure peoples' height in feet and inches, still, and the same with building materials. But other than that, and meat being weighed by the pound..)

  • I've another similar question.

    Imagine that I create this wonder gadget (not software, but something else) and patent it in a small country (say Sweden). Can another company or person take this idea and patent it in the rest of the world?
  • > America's where all the software innovation
    > comes from. Witness Microsoft

    *coff*

    You know, the last I heard, Linux was written in Scandinavia. Scandinavia is nowhere near America, it never has been and it never will be.

    Engage brain, yanky boy.
  • There's even a patent for using a flashlight/laser pointer to play with a cat! I kid you not

    Is that a Business plan patent?

  • Hm... you probably missed the point - the whole concept of "intellectual property" is something, that should not be taken for granted but rather reconsidered again. Maybe we got something wrong here. Maybe it has gone too far - from protecting you from others claiming that they invented your invention to making it illegal for others to see what your invention is about and use it.

    Now, the former is OK but the later is insane and slows down the progress.

  • Here you go, the most STUPID patent I've ever seen...

    from: http://www.delphion.com/details?pn=US05443036__

    Issued/Filed Dates: Aug. 22, 1995 / Nov. 2, 1993
    Application Number: US1993000144473

    Abstract: A method for inducing cats to exercise consists of directing a beam of invisible light produced by a hand-held laser apparatus onto the floor or wall or other opaque surface in the vicinity of the cat, then moving the laser so as to cause the bright pattern of light to move in an irregular way fascinating to cats, and to any other animal with a chase instinct.

    Primary/Assistant Examiners: Manahan; Todd E.;
  • Our budy Linus works for Transmeta and lives in the US. Transmeta is a US company that produces the chip for Sony's new micro viao. IIRC it's a public company and I think Compaq has a stake in it. You know how it is, the home boys get famous, and even though they always swore they'd never leave the hood, what do they do, they move to a nice neighborhood in Cali. Ayeet?

    Transmeta.com [transmeta.com]

  • If you would like to know more about (software) patents (and you ought to if you if you are in the software business and live in Europe), here is some links:

    SSLUG (Skåne Sjælland Linux User Group) has created an article called "Software patents - No thanks!". You can find it here [sslug.dk].
    "The EuroLinux File on Software Patents" also has a lot of information right here [eurolinux.org]


    Greetings Joergen
  • Good article from TheRegister [theregister.co.uk] sets the decision within the EU context; EPO != EU.

    The important rubric, from this document, runs: [european-p...office.org]

    17. Article 52 shall be amended to read as follows:
    Article 52 - Patentable inventions
    (1) European patents shall be granted for any inventions, in all fields of technology, provided that they are new, involve an inventive step and are susceptible of industrial application.
    (2) The following in particular shall not be regarded as inventions within the meaning of paragraph 1:
    (a) discoveries, scientific theories and mathematical methods;
    (b) aesthetic creations;
    (c) schemes, rules and methods for performing mental acts, playing games or doing business;
    (d) presentations of information.

  • There is nothing to stop any country in Europe enacting a law about software patents.

    I'm no expert on the EU but I would be very surprised if the EU wasn't trying to move towards harmonization on patent laws as it is in many other areas. So while existing may not be affected the ability to patent software in the future will be - hence its importance.

    Paul M

    "There are no innocent bystanders. What where they doing there in the first place"

  • What this means (Score:3)

    by buttfucker2000 ( 240799 ) on Wednesday November 22, 2000 @03:44AM (#607520) Homepage Journal
    This is concerned with EU law. Not national law.

    There is nothing to stop any country in Europe enacting a law about software patents.

    In any case, the good news is actually no such thing, since software patents already exist in Europe; for example, the lzw patent, which affects gifs, plus many thousands of other software patents, are effective in many European countries (mainly Britain, for strategic, rather than legal reasons).

  • Legal Implications (i'm confused) (Score:3)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 22, 2000 @03:56AM (#607521)
    Ok, so the EU have ruled against Patents for Software. I'm still confused about the whole legal aspect of patent infringement, and how whatever "International Treaties" that may exist affect this area of the law.

    Let's say I start a computer software company here in England, and my product includes a feature that is the subject of some silly United States patent. Can I freely market that product everywhere but the United States without fear of being chased by the patent owners lawyers?

    If so, and I then decide I do want to sell into the United States, can my "license fee" then only apply to copies sold in the United States?

    Or what?

    Regards,
    Confused of the Thames Valley, United Kingdom.

  • Finally, some sense. (Score:5)

    by nharmon ( 97591 ) on Wednesday November 22, 2000 @03:56AM (#607522)

    Boy, I'm sure glad there is some good sense in this world. We're finally getting politicians to understand the blatently dangerous consequences of patenting software. What's next? The United States? Ye gods, I hope so.

    And let's not go off and start up about this only effecting EU. Because you have to understand the international treaties are two-way streets. I mean, America isn't the only place where if a law is enacted, other countries follow. EU has a lot of influence, and this is definetely good news, even in America.

    I would have liked to see them extend this wisdom to bio patents, but unfortunately they decided not to discuss that.

  • Makes sense (Score:4)

    by Creepy13 ( 239104 ) on Wednesday November 22, 2000 @03:54AM (#607523) Homepage
    Good to see that European politics sometimes DOES make sense :-)
  • And besides, all 20 countries voted against it, so I would really be surprised if they changed their minds for home politics.

    ----------------------------------------------

  • Statement from Eurolinux (Score:5)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 22, 2000 @04:51AM (#607525)

    Bruxelles, Copenhagen, London, Madrid, Munich, Paris. 2000-11-22. With the exception of Austria, Lichtenstein and Switzerland, all European countries voted in Munich yesterday against an extension of the patent system to software. The exception on computer programs will be maintained in the European Patent Convention after its revision. This move is a clear victory for democracy, since it allows the European Commission to proceed with its public consultation on software patents, together with the European Parliament. National governments in Europe which are currently reviewing in detail the pros and the cons of an extension of the patent system to software, will also be able to participate the debate.

    Nicolas Pettiaux, belgian representative for the EuroLinux Alliance of software publishers and non profit organisations, warns however that "yesterday's vote should not be interpreted as a vote against software patents, but rather as a vote to postpone any decision on this matter until the consultation launched by the European Commission is closed". But, according to Stéfane Fermigier of AFUL, member of EuroLinux: "the General Directorate for Internal Market at the European Commission, which is in charge of the consultation, has approached the software patent issue with an ideological point of view. Both their interpretation of the Law and their call for the consultation are obviously biased in favour of software patents. Furthermore, until very recently, they paid no attention to the economic effects and to other side effects of software patents, as they should have according to the Rome and Amsterdam Treaties. We are still very far from a decision to ban software patents in Europe."

    Future EuroLinux actions will be targeted at convincing the European Commission to take a balanced approach on software patents. As the FFII/EuroLinux Software Patent Horror Gallery shows, the European Patent Office is already abusively granting many patents on pure software methods. Such kind of patents are then cancelled by national courts in case of dispute. A clarification is still needed in Europe, either in favour or against software patents. EuroLinux considers that software patents should clearly be banned in Europe because they harm innovation and that software should be protected through copyright.

    References

    European Patent Office - http://www.european-patent-office.org ; [eurolinux.org]
    Software Patent Horror Gallery - http://petition.eurolinux.org/examples Statements for Software Patent Free Europe - http://petition.eurolinux.org/statements The EuroLinux Public Consultation - http://petition.eurolinux.org/consultation [eurolinux.org]
    The EuroLinux Petition for a Software Patent Free Europe - http://petition.eurolinux.org
    The EuroLinux File on Software Patents - http://petition.eurolinux.org/reference

  • Let's say I start a computer software company here in England, and my product includes a feature that is the subject of some silly United States patent. Can I freely market that product everywhere but the United States without fear of being chased by the patent owners lawyers?

    Well, the US lawyers will immediately come and claim for infringement, but they have to argue it in a US court, and if you don't have a US revenue stream they're not likely to get much from you.

    If so, and I then decide I do want to sell into the United States, can my "license fee" then only apply to copies sold in the United States?

    It's up to the patent owner. They have the monopoly, only they can grant you use of their patent. They can demand three camels per copy sold if they really want. They might even refuse to license you, and can demand that all copies of your product in the USA be siezed if you ignore them anyway. Perhaps this could affect UK shops who are owned and supplied by US companies.
  • I think in Europe, people are a little more tolerant to others moving to their countries, and are aware of the fact that their country is not the only one in the world.
    Don't forget that there is quite free movement for EU citizens moving within the EU. Not quite sure about working/residency but just for travelling you can pretty much come and go as you please.
  • You didn't answer his other points though. If you are posting here, it means you are probably a small company. You can not stand against the patent machine of the large multi-nationals or the Patent-it-and-sue-em companies out there. Anything you come up with unless really, really new, will most likely infringe on one of the big boys' patents an then you are screwed. Also if I came up with an idea myself, without knowledge of your patent why should I have to pay you to use my own idea? That is the major reason that the patent system is unjust and a travesty.
    Molog

    So Linus, what are we doing tonight?

  • Europe - for smart people [tm]
  • This is a victory for the free software world, even in the United States. It demonstrates that someone out there has a clue, and (perhaps more importantly) that other countries aren't just going to roll over and adopt the US's unique brand of stupidity.

    I wonder if the BushGore fiasco has had anything to do with it (i.e. "those Yanks can't even vote in a president, why should we let them dictate our trade policies?").
    --
  • America's where all the software innovation comes from. Witness Microsoft.

    Heh heh. Dream on! To name a few, where did Linux, SSH, WWW, C++ originate?

    Hell, even John Von Neumann was from Europe!

  • Sometimes I'm really proud of my fellow Europeans. Even some of the bureaucrats seem to get a clue once in a while.

    But, the problem doesn't go entirely away. You might not be able to patent the software per se, but you might very well patent a method to get from A to B, which - oh gosh - happens to be implemented with software.

  • Re:Finally, some sense. (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    > Don't forget that there is quite free movement for EU citizens moving within the EU. Not quite sure about working/residency but just for travelling you can pretty much come and go as you please.

    movement to, residency, working wherever you want were the main freedoms of the eu from the beginning.

    in fact there are no borders anymore between the members, that signed the schengen-treaty.
    when you travel from germany to france for example, nobody will stop you, and you don't have to carry a passport.

    the UK did not sign the treaty, so although they can't stop me from traveling to/working/living in england, they want to see my passport.

  • Is your company violating GPL? (Score:4)

    by lorax ( 2988 ) on Wednesday November 22, 2000 @06:53AM (#607534)
    First, GPL code is protected by copyright, and thus, your companies code is too, you are just
    forced to allow it to be copied under certain conditions.

    Second. I believe if you release the code under GPL, you are automatically giving a license to anyone who wants to use/modify the released code
    (the code is still under GPL of course)

    Relevant sections of the GPL:
    From the Preamble:

    Finally, any free program is threatened constantly by software patents. We wish to avoid the danger that redistributors of a free program will individually obtain patent licenses, in effect making the program proprietary. To prevent this, we have made it clear that any patent must be licensed for everyone's free use or not licensed at all.

    Further down under the terms and conditions section 7:

    If, as a consequence of a court judgment or allegation of patent infringement or for any other reason (not limited to patent issues), conditions are imposed on you (whether by court order, agreement or otherwise) that contradict the conditions of this License, they do not excuse you from the conditions of this License. If you cannot distribute so as to satisfy simultaneously your obligations under this License and any other pertinent obligations, then as a consequence you may not distribute the Program at all. For example, if a patent license would not permit royalty-free redistribution of the Program by all those who receive copies directly or indirectly through you, then the only way you could satisfy both it and this License would be to refrain entirely from distribution of the Program.

    You should probably get advice from a lawyer before depending on this.

    (I didn't mean to post the last one anonymously.)
  • Imagine the following scenario:
    I own a software company somewhere in Europe, and I create some code that could be valueable to, let's say, Microsoft. Now, since I am located in Europe I cannot patent my code. So Microsoft comes along, takes my code and patents it in the US.
    Would something like this be possible? Please, someone enlighten me on this.


    Who believes he knows, must know he believes.
  • Yes, this is good for Open Source software, but i'm in the business of making money from my code, so i like being able to protect my product and my I.P This decusion makes it almost imposible to do that now, and that can only damage the growing IT market across the EU.

    It may be just me, but I think that what is good for open source software is good for "continued software development" as you put it. It is a mistake to think that open source software will go anywhere when it is written by a bunch of amateur geeks in their spare time. This is not the case with Linux or Apache, nor can it be an effective method of software development.

    Rather what occurs is that businesses (some of whom charge money for the service) contribute to such projects. The market model is fundamentally different because the programmer charges for services, rather than making money on royalties.

    It is my opinion that this market model is more stable, in part because maintanance programmers always outnumber programmers that program software for sale. In the US, 95% of programers are maintance programmers. In this way, these programmers can more easily create in-house applications based upon Open Source software then they can with propriety software. Furthermore this development power can be harnessed to produce better software faster that better meets the end-user's needs.

  • Re:Good news for North America (Score:3)

    by rlk ( 1089 ) on Wednesday November 22, 2000 @09:22AM (#607537)
    I am opposed to patents in general, but it would be less of an issue if people were more honest about what patents are for. Cloaking patents in terms such as "property" confuses the issue. The goal of patents is to promote innovation by giving inventors exclusive rights to their inventions for a limited amount of time. If it's admitted that patents are an attempt to increase innovation, we can discuss them on pragmatic grounds: where are they needed, what qualifies as sufficiently novel, what the terms should be in particular instances, and so forth. Instead, because of the word "property" a lot of people are convinced to believe that there's somehow an inherent right to a patent of the same degree as the right to own personal property.

    If there are going to be patents at all, I don't see any particular reason why a patent couldn't apply to a particularly innovative software-based mechanism if it's determined that that's what's needed to encourage innovation. But the rules should be analogous to those for hardware inventions; software patents as they exist today undoubtedly have the opposite effect. Part of that is because of the incremental innovation that's so common in software, where using components as building blocks for other components is a common method of construction, and part of it is due to the proliferation of really trivial patents that just create barriers.

    However, even if the goal is to be stimulation of innovation, we should look at it more closely; merely stimulating innovation doesn't necessarily result in progress. If people are stimulated to merely seek slight variations on the same theme in order to grab a patent, it isn't terribly productive, and likewise if people have to spend a lot of time working around existing patents.

  • Here's An Idea... (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Could some European country please conquer us here in America.

    If that's what it would take to get rid of US software patents, I'm all for european hegemony.
  • wouldn't your work in the UK still count as prior art in the US?

    I dunno, just wondering..
  • Sure, that's the way LM Ericsson [ericsson.se] started in the telephone business (but the other way around, he patented the telephone in Sweden).
  • It's a great move. As it allows software to keep its development dynamics. And it will allow to have several properietary forms on binaries and sources. With a system of patents this would lead objectively to a stall in some critical points of development.

    Of course this will not satisfy those who see a copyright claim not enough for protection. And this does not mean only corporations and cash-hungry egoistic personalities. This means small developers that want to get some money from an hard and original work.

    I'm a anti-patent partisan. But I believe that anyone has the right to distribute his work under the conditions that fit most his interests. And it is pretty clear that stamping "My Copyright #### - All rights reserved" is not enough for protection. So how to get out of this?

    Patent protection is a nonsense in software and even most hardware systems. However the software product is something real and which allows to evaluate the cases when someone grabs unlawfully its code. Besides software has a property that other Works of Art don't possess. It can be reproduced with a 99% accurancy. So why not to create a Software Depositary where people who wished to protect their works, would keep an copy of their original work? In cases of plagiates, theft, piracy, this would help a lot in litigation processes. Besides it would not hamper development. If someone makes a parallel discovery then he also gets the right to give life to it.

    One interesting point. Such institution would not need to see the original code to process registration. Microsoft could well bring all Windows source code in a sealed box and claim it when it wanted to sue someone. However if such things would be there then this institution should have a building stronger than Cheyenne Mountain.
  • The EU do a lot of things right, like being able to work anywhere I want in the EU, it's just that the little-Englander press in the UK write lies rather than the truth. And our government is every bit as corrupt as the European parliament, it's just not reported on.
  • The REAL reason Switzerland did not vote for/against it is that Switzerland is NOT part of the European Community !
  • Actually my post was more to the point that in the current system you can't stand against them if you play the patent game. That is their game, you can't play them at their game with their rules and win. I want a change and I am active in writing my representatives and I vote. The problem is that the multi-nationals pay for the campaign of our officials. I will continue to fight it but until more people stop being apathetic to the whole thing it isn't going to be an easy fight.
    Molog

    So Linus, what are we doing tonight?

  • Let me ask the inverse, since the ostensible purpose of patents is to encourage innovation: how are patents good for this industry?

  • "Hardly. Both France and Germany have very active and militant anti-immigrant political parties."

    I'd think otherwise. I lived in Germany for one year (in Munich) and I felt that the Germans (esp. their authorities) were doing their best NOT to be racists and not to discriminate.

    Then I came back to England (btw. I'm not British, I'm Greek) and I saw very heavy discrimination towards non-British people, both from the authorities and from the people. Even EU citizens (like me) are treated with wariness and discriminated upon in many cases.

    As for the Austrians, I'll leave it to somebody with more knowledge on the matter.

    Trian

  • Harmonization? (Score:3)

    by buttfucker2000 ( 240799 ) on Wednesday November 22, 2000 @04:05AM (#607548) Homepage Journal
    Having studied EU law, I can tell you that at present there is no harmonization. In particular, a judgment of the [ECOJ] court in 1994 affirmed that Article 113 of the EC Treaty *did not* cover intellectual property.

    Since then, Article 133 has been introduced, but this only covers intellectual property disputes, and not law per se.
  • sometimes, people surprise me. this would indeed be one of those times. Now, if only this decision would add some weight to the cause on this (US) side of the ocean...

    either way, score one for the good-guys...


  • > It's called EU law breaks national law,

    No. EU directives, which would cover this, do not *break* national law. However, within a directive there would be a timetable for implementation, and if a country broke this, it could be taken to the ECOJ. Important directives which have led to laws include that on Consumer Protection [sorry can't remember the name], which led to the Sale and Supply of Goods Act.

    In any case, however, the EU legislative force stems from an Act of Parliament, and there is therefore nothing to stop the UK repealing that act [the European Communities Act]. But it is important to note that to extend EU powers, would require EU member states to ratify a treaty [in the UK this would include enaction of an Act of Parliament, since treaties have no legislative force.]
  • >[...]
    >At least we in North America will benefit from software companies re-locating
    > here to produce and sell thier products.

    I don't think that companies could be arsed to move to US... It's yet just another sample of the BS you're all full of (in a more or less amount).
    Go figure - could you make Siemens fly over to US? and land where? Get real man. After all Canada sounds a better choice for that - if it was to move headquarters - though no company it its right minds will ever attempt it. Why? "ECONOMICS" is the answer - the prices would so much sky-rocket that if it would be the only company on Earth producing whatever they'd produce - still no one would by from them.
    However - if you're asking for a reality check - here it is - check what's going on with US (yes U.S.) companies that are having their development HQ located in Cyprus... Ha?! do I hear why are they doing that? because US is so great? I'd rather say "au contraire"(Fr.).

    Conclusion: There is a world beyond US borders - sometimes better sometimes worse - but you are *NOT* the center of the world - much as you show your muscles to anyone caring enough to look at you. Learn some geography, learn some economy and then talk. TROLL!

    --
  • Have you tried a petition? In Europe, numerous of them have been set up. Check out the petition of Eurolinux [eurolinux.org].
  • ..since software patents already exist in Europe; for example, the lzw patent..

    Well, yes and no. As far as I remember, the lzw patent (as well as other software patents) is the use of lzw 'as part of a device'; you can't patent the algorithm itself, merely its implementation as part of a device.

    What really complicates matters seem to be the Bern convention, which requiera signatories to respect patents in other countries. That seems to give the lzw patent greater protection in europe than it would otherwise have had.
  • I'm just glad that *someone* had an attack of good sense.

    even though it is still a little dicey for the EU to start taking over such things on a continental basis.

    As a contrast, imagine patent law in the USA if all 50 states had their own patent offices. It gets scary very quickly.

  • Re:What this means (Score:3)

    by opkool ( 231966 ) on Wednesday November 22, 2000 @05:10AM (#607555) Homepage

    As a member of the Strategic Studies Center of one of the EU countries I must disagree.

    There are quite a few differences on how the law works in the United States of America and the European Union.

    USA is a country with federal laws. It is composed of states that have state laws. The higest law appliable anywere in the USA is the federal law (am I 100% right? any USA law expert here?). The highest court is the USA supreme Court.

    EU is an association, a legal organization, if you wish. All the members are countries. The higest law appliable anywere in the EU is the EU law made by the EU Parliament at Brussels. The highest court is the EU Highest Court.

    This can sound ridiculous: a legal association taking precedence to the federal(US)/national(EU) law?

    Since the Maastrich Treaty, all the EU members (not the associate members) gave up part of their national sovereignity inorder to provide it to the EU Parliament. All of them changed their constitutions to reflect this.

    What does all this mean?

    All the laws of the EU countries must be in compliace with the EU laws.

    And, for this topic, the law on patents issued by the EU parliament takes priority over any national law from any EU country.

    Not bad for the IT guys in Europe, isn't it?

    Cheers

  • You seem to imply that socialism is wrong, and that is to ignore some of its positives. However I'm not about to declare that capitalism is wrong, as it too have advantages. The answer, as it always is, is somewhere down the middle - enough capitalism to reward excellence and hard work. Enough socialism to stop explotation and poverty.

  • Some good news at last! (Score:3)

    by mikethegeek ( 257172 ) <blairNO@SPAMNOwcmifm.comSPAM> on Wednesday November 22, 2000 @05:13AM (#607557) Homepage
    Nice to see that not all governments are entirely brain dead or totally owned by corporations.
    There are too many stupid patents being granted. There's even a patent for using a flashlight/laser pointer to play with a cat! I kid you not.

    Now the EC needs to strike down the horribly Tony Blair RIP bill that not only allows police to raid your computer for data, but makes it a crime not to hand over your encryption keys on request.
  • > Since the Maastrich Treaty, all the EU members (not the associate members) gave up part of their national sovereignity inorder to provide it to the EU Parliament. All of them changed their constitutions to reflect this.

    Nuh uh. The UK did not change its constitution [it does have one, although it is unwritten, but it didn't change it for this]. It enacted an Act of Parliament. The enaction of an Act of Parliament did not change its constitution - there is nothing to stop the UK repealing the law.

    English judges have affirmed time and again that all EU sovereignty flows from the UK Parliament. The UK has not, therefore, sacrificed its *sovereignty*, although it is certainly less powerful.

    > All the laws of the EU countries must be in compliace with the EU laws.

    While that's true, EU laws only cover certain areas, and those areas are defined by treaty. Therefore since the EU has no jurisdiction over patent law, countries do not have to comply with it.
  • Now, this is clearly all rubbish, because small business's do come up with a lot of the inovative idea and they do secure valid patents on those ideas.

    And multinationals do use their bank of trivial patents to force small companies to 'cross license'. So there's no real protection for small companies.

    Much as I do love to whore for karma, my time is precious - you'll have to come up with better than that to continue the trolling.

  • Re:Finally, some sense. (Score:3)

    by tswinzig ( 210999 ) on Wednesday November 22, 2000 @12:36PM (#607560) Journal
    Forgive my Canadian bias, but Americans just don't seem all that flexible in this regard. It would require changing school curriculum, and seeing as what's taught to children appears to be a somewhat taboo topic.. (just look at the arguments over creationism)

    Excuse me. Are you trying to equate the teaching of an unsubstantiated myth in public schools thereby violating the constitutional separation of Church and State, with teaching kids in the metric system?

    By the way, the metric system will become common just as soon as:

    1. The NFL disappears (and its 100-yard field).
    2. Machine gun ammunition round lengths are changed (as opposed to 'the whole nine yards').

    and most importantly

    3. Monkeys fly out of my butt.

    I love those people that can't understand why we still don't use the metric measuring system, as they drive on the "wrong" side of their cars and their roads.

    "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
  • ...but here in Ireland, in an unusal show of foresight, they introduced a dual system back in the seventies. Then when the EU decided to go fully metric, we could litterally do it overnight.
    Maybe you should make it clear that it's not Americans en masse, or even the majority of American who oppose metric. It's the vocal, heavily armed and influential sections of American society. That includes the American media - my God! (Do you take CNN and those other tabloid trash tv stations seriously? They don't tell you just the facts, they draw conclusions and cram opinions down your throat at a mile a minute. The American media scares me just because it's so biased and able to influence the liberal sections of society).
    Anywho, America could, can and will change - it just won't happen over night. Give 'em 50 years or so. (I hope that they realise metric actually isn't a Communist plot...but part of me hopes they stay Imperial and crash n' burn - I'll never forgive Americans for making 'Sulfur' the accepted spelling for 'Sulphur' in science circles.)
  • I love those people that can't understand why we still don't use the metric measuring system, as they drive on the "wrong" side of their cars and their roads.

    Uh? Only Brits, Japanese and Australians drive on left (oh, maybe they do it in New Zealand, too, dunno). Not canadians.

    ______________

  • I don't have the right URL at the moment but a recent rash of stories have indicated that Switzerland has been invited to join the EU and is seriously considering it.
    Any Swiss comments? I wonder how this would effect the whole Swiss image thang you've got going over there...
  • ... we just didn't tell you yet!

    Ireland - you all stood by while modified our constitution and defined our nation in terms of people, now you're OURS!.
    (Damn, now the Dublin Secret Milita will probably break my legs). 8)
  • Then you must really get pissed off at the internet, 'cos it usually says things were invented by an Englishman or an American. (I'm not saying that's wrong....if mother M$ wants it that way, I'll conform....for now)

    8)
  • I doubt you're going to be able to get the population to change, unless something drastic happens. (And I mean something drastic.

    Yea. Something terrible, like mixing up the units and smashing a valuable satellite into the surface of Mars or something.

    Oh wait...
  • 2) Metric system. All of our cars (that last more than 3 years) are built using this system of measurement. Our cars have kilometers per hour below miles per hour. Our drugs are measured in this system. It is a much easier system to remember, and is much better organized than the crazy crap we use.

    I'm finding myself unable to resist the temptation to note that drug sales have succeeded where the public educational system has failed in teaching our youth the metric system...

  • Good news, but only temporary (Score:4)

    by kalifa ( 143176 ) on Wednesday November 22, 2000 @04:15AM (#607568)
    This decision is actually only temporary. The EU is waiting for the end of a large consultation which should end december, 15. As such, the EU decided not to precipitate. But the issue is not solved yet.

  • Not good for all of us (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    My company adapts GPL'ed code. Since this is usually impossible to protect with copyright, we are forced to use patents for our modifictions to protect our IP. But we can only sell outside Europe, because we can't patent our improvements there, so they spread like crazy, and there is no legal way we can stop it.

  • Re:Finally, some sense. (Score:5)

    by b0z ( 191086 ) on Wednesday November 22, 2000 @04:20AM (#607570) Homepage Journal
    I mean, America isn't the only place where if a law is enacted, other countries follow. EU has a lot of influence, and this is definetely good news, even in America.

    Actually, we have quite a few examples of things even simpler than law that the U.S. has NOT followed the rest of the world in. Here's a quick list:

    1) Celcius. That whole Farenheit thing is stupid. It makes much more sense for the temperature of water to freeze to be 0. I don't want this Farenheit B.S. anymore.

    2) Metric system. All of our cars (that last more than 3 years) are built using this system of measurement. Our cars have kilometers per hour below miles per hour. Our drugs are measured in this system. It is a much easier system to remember, and is much better organized than the crazy crap we use.

    3) $country is a part of Earth. I think foreign policy can be an important thing, especially for a country where 99.9% (a stat I made up) of the people are immigrants or descendants of immigrants. All the xenophobes that want to "protect our jobs" from Mexicans, Chinese, Indians, etc. need to grow up. These people labelled as "foreigners" have as much right to be here as anyone born here. Just because our government discriminates against these people, and just because rich Americans like to make these people into slaves (or indentured servants with the H1B visas) doesn't mean that everyone else has to be mean to them. I think in Europe, people are a little more tolerant to others moving to their countries, and are aware of the fact that their country is not the only one in the world.

    Anyways, I just think that the U.S. government will ignore the decision of the Europeans and Americans, and continue to do whatever the hell they please. Especially when big businesses are the ones paying our politicians by choice rather than by extortion (taxes.)

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