Sega Pushes ISONews, and They Push Back 151
ttol writes "Take a look at our announcement at iSONews.com. Sega of America is trying to censor our freedom of speech by claiming our news service infringes on their copyrights on their Dreamcast system. We've got Ms. Jennifer Stisa Granick representing us (she spoke at DefCon). Sega has been sending out these notices for to other sites as well. It's time that someone can stand up for our constitutionary rights, and not let Big Business bully us around." ISO News doesn't distribute ISOs, so Sega is being very uncool. I think they're just pissed that only like 9 people bought dreamcasts *grin*.
Isonews are obviously in the right here... (Score:1)
Re:Slashdot Drinking Game (Score:1)
<flame tone=nasty>Maybe if you were actually capable of writing a Gnutella clone, you'd be developing some software worth copying instead of whining about the morals of others that copy software.
But since you're just verbally wanking, I guess you'll go back to using that copy of M$ Windows you legitimately paid for with your Compaquard Bell and complaining about the eeevil software pirates.</flame>
<flame tone=sarcastic>While you're at it, be sure to write your senator or representative (assuming you live in the U.S.) and let him/her know you're willing to give up your 1st and 4th amendment rights to protect the intellectual "property" rights of copyright holders. Do it today!</flame>
Re:Quiz time (Score:2)
It's an old observation that important rights cases always involve shady characters. When the rights of sweet, old grandmothers are threatened, it's just not a tough call. The difficult, and therefore important, calls involve characters like Ernesto Miranda, who was arrested for kidnapping and raping a slightly retarded 18-year-old woman.
So to address your question: is this really a case of free speech? Absolutely. The fact that the speakers are associated with low-grade lawbreaking does not in any way detract from the vastly more important free speech issue. Perhaps you've taken your eyes off the ball?
Lack of critical thinking skills (Score:1)
-Legion
Bob the jam maker. (Score:3)
Bob is a homosexual man living in san fransisco, for a living he makes and sells homemade jams and fruit perserves. He is also very successful, selling tons of jams and also becoming very famious.
One day on one of his many trips to buy bob's jams a young jamacian man named Stan thinks to himself "if only i dident have to dish out 50 bucks for each jam, what if i bought the jams and reverse engeered them so i could make them for my self and give bobs secret recipes to my friends for free, after all bob is just a money hungry bastard anyway charging 50 bucks for each jam, what an asshole". And so Stan buys a few of his favorite jams from bob, takes them home and gets to work at figuring out what went into these jams.
After weeks of hard work Stan breaks bob's secret recipe for strawberry jam and after a few more days discovers that almost all his jams include the same basic ingrediants. He quickly sends the
recipe along with this information to a few of his closest friends, so they too will no longer need to pay bob's outragious prices.
Months pass and while Bob is still doing very well he notices that some of his key customers are no longer showing up to buy his jam. He ponders this and reasons that either someone has cracked his secret recipe or someone is making an even better jam, but Lance wasent supposed to come out with his new jams for at least six months.
So Bob gets busy searching the internet and finds www.latestbobsjams.com with all the latest info on which of his jam's recipes have been discovered but does not include the actual recipes. Bob is infuriated and runs downtown to talk to his lawyer who says that Bob most likely wouldent win a court case against joe, (the admin of www.latestbobsjams.com) but a scare tactic would most likely work.
So off goes the email to Joe. And a few days later www.latestbobsjams.com goes down. Bob is delighted and ignorantly thinks that now no one will give out his secret recipes out of fear. But he is sadly mistaken because only a week later he finds out about www.jamplanet.com which not only lists the latest progress in the discovery of Bob's recipes it also lists the latest of his two good friends Steve and Larry as well. Along with at least twenty other people he dosent know.
Bob tries sending out a threatening email to www.jamplanet.com assuming that it will work because it worked with www.latestbobsjams.com. Fred (the admin of www.jamplanet.com) briefly takes only Bob's listings off the site only to consult his lawyer. With his lawyers ok Fred puts back up the Bob section on his site. This was Bob's greatest fear, the scare tactic dident work
and now everyone would know when each of his jams was reverse engeered.
Bob runs to his lawyer and begs him to do something. Bob's lawyer informs him that in court they would most likely lose but that a lawsuit could either scare them off or consume all of there money.
And thats where we sit today.
Ok, Maybe i went a little overboard.
I understand the prevailing attitude here, but... (Score:1)
Re:Stop being a dink Taco (Score:1)
Lawyers or Thugs? (Score:2)
As with every case of "copyright infringement", every company's lawyers spew their harassing, veiled threats without offering one *damnned* example of *actual* infringement. iSONEWS is only guilty of indirect infringement if they take no action once they *know* direct infringement is occuring. Mr. Harris/Sega hasn't pointed out anyting. In fact, they've got their work ahead of them if they want to prove the "past" part of "past and current" violations. (If iSONEWS removed them, then they have complied with the law - PERIOD.)
"We know you're breaking the law, so play nice and tell us which ones."
Even better (Score:1)
There is NO REASON for the common citizen to question those in power.
There is NO REASON for the common citizen to choose his or her own interests in life.
Fucking scumbag criminals.
-Legion
Re:Isonews are obviously in the right here... (Score:1)
My house was burgled, I found my guitar in a pawn shop. On calling the police, I was told that if I was even going to get it back I would have to pay Cash-Converters what they paid for it - they bought it in good faith (from some guy who can't even play a guitar and had dodgy i.d.). I am expected, in this case, to allow for the company not taking the presumption that anyone entering their store is a criminal. I can manage this, but I want that extended to being a uniform way of looking at the public. Not just when it suits the companies sponsoring political parties.
Right... (Score:2)
Um, yeah... [powervr.com]
Re:I am all for free speech but... (Score:1)
Re:c'mon now (Score:1)
isonews lists nfo files. There are no downloadable images or even links to downloadable images or instructions on how to find links to download images etc etc etc.
Maybe you should go look at the site in question before you damn it.
Re:constitutionary? (Score:1)
thin line between news reporting and involvement (Score:1)
after all, sega lawyers are just doing their job. without you, they won't get any pay
- dennison
Re:Quiz time (Score:5)
Yes, it is a case of free speech. As far as I can tell, ISONews does not distribute any illegal games themserlves. They simply report on what's out there. This is not and should not be a crime. If someone comes up to me on the street and asks if I know where he might find some crack and I tell him that the crackhouse down the street might be a good place to start should I be arrested as a drug dealer?
Warez fascinates me I guess, because people that wouldn't steal anything material - ie wouldn't walk into a shop and steal one of these games, feel totally justified in downloading them.
Agreed.
don't want to start a fight, I'd just really like to see some other opinions on this. Is it ethical?
It may not be ethical but "ethical" and "legal" are two very different things.
Don't any of you get it.... (Score:3)
ISONews may be pussing the limits of good taste, but in not way are they doing anything illegal. Like they said, you must show what parts are infringing. Frankley after reading the letters, it appears more like harrasment than anything else.
You must ask yourself, before damming ISOnews, what if it were YOUR site. You were doing noting you thought was illegal, and they threaten you with vauge refrences to what you are doing wrong. They tell you that litigation will be long and agrivatitig. They force you to retain leagl advice and respond to letters that do not conform to the laws they are refrencing. You know the lawsuit is baseless, but how do you fight a company like sega? What would you do?
Everytime they bully a site down without just cause, and everyone that caves is sending the wrong message. They are saing that it's ok for coperations to strong arm the little guy for their own benifit, and the first amendment means noting. I'm starting to question wether or not any of out bill of right are really still enforcable, as now there are so many laws in place to restrict them, and I'm not just talking about free speach.
B*tch please. (Score:2)
A more serious response (Score:2)
Hm, didn't we just hear about a certain bill [slashdot.org] that got voted down?
But let's continue.
or an even better analogy: what if there was a site like stolengoods.com, where you see the booties of recent robberies, again with the message boards etc. how would you feel if you had been robbed and you saw your stuff traded on the site ? I bet you'd get pissed, wouldn't you ?
These people would have to put up contact info, wouldn't they? And it's better than seeing my stuff in a pawnshop.
(Yeah.... Give a strained analogy, get a strained response.)
Like I said, I am all for free speech,
Yeah, yeah, who doesn't say they are?
But, really: "Ok, everybody can speak. I mean, the people saying things that don't offend me too badly can speak. I mean -- hey! YOU! Shut up!"
but these sites IMHO are crossing the line: there is no reason for a law abiding citizen, somebody that doesn't pirate games, to go on these sites, and there is no reason for these sites to exist besides helping piracy and making money off it (via banner ads etc.).
There is NO REASON for the common citizen to know how to make a nuclear weapon. There is NO REASON for the common citizen to know how to make drugs. There is NO REASON for the common citizen to know how to build a bomb. There is NO REASON for the common citizen to own a gun. There is NO REASON for the common citizen to own drug-related paraphenalia. There is NO REASON
Free speech is a right, but helping people commit crimes is not a right.
Let's see. "This ISO was just released."
That statement does not infringe any copyrights or trademarks.
It is not obscene.
It is not libelous or slanderous.
It is not an incitement to violence.
Have I missed anything?
No. It reeks a lot of trying to be clever. You decide whether it succeeded. (But, really, WHO CARES?)
Bruce
Guilt by association... ouch (Score:1)
Hmm... I'de say guilt by association is not allowed in the united states. To say that someone is doing something illegal becuse he is around it without DIRECT proof is one of the things the constitution protects from.
Re:Put this letter in your memory! (Score:1)
What it amounts to is that the big businesses still run the world, and going head to head with them in the real world isn't real smart. Turning to usenet or other more anonymous posting methods, until they get that choked off completely, is the way to deal with this. The only reason fighting back is even feasible now is that the public hasn't seen enough of these corporate jackboot cases that they're old news yet. Once they do, all the publicity in the world won't stop them.
The Big Business Bill Of Rights (Score:4)
(2) We can change the product license/EULA at anytime and that is always legally binding on you, with or without your consent. Even if you're a minor.
(3) Software piracy is "theft" and a loss for our company everywhere except in our annual financial report (where the SEC requires public US traded companies to disclose all profits, expenditures, LOSSES, etc.)
(4) Negative reviews of our products are illegal, as this may result in financial losses. Also, the reviewer is financially responsible for any such losses he/she causes.
(5) Since we always own our product, we can use it to covertly spy on you, collect personal data, and secretly send it back to corporate HQ. Blocking this action in any way is also illegal.
(6) US law is world law, thanks to UN treaties which preempt the US constitution (See Article VI, ection 2), and other nations' constitutions. Non-compliant nations will be carpet bombed into submission (Yugoslovia, Iraq, etc.)
(7) Exemptions for archival backups, reverse engineering, security analysis, transfer of license, reliabiliy testing, etc., no longer applies to our products (see the DMCA).
(8) Even when we're wrong. We win the lawsuits. You are a mere peon. We have an army of lawyers and a mega-dollar legal budget and years to decades of time on our hands to sue and delay and filibuster you into litigation hell. Can you afford to "win"? You'll go bankrupt, your wife and kids leave you, and die a bum on the streets, of starvation, long before that happens. God bless the US legal system. And when we do win (rightfully or wrongfilly [in your opinion]), the win builds up case law in our favor to make us stronger against the next punk.
(9) Copyrights never expire. They never will ever again. Just get over your dreams of eventual intellectual property theft. We'll be working on patents, next.
(10) We reserve the right to make deletions, additions, or changes to this Bill of Rights at any time and any such alterations are retroactively effective from infinity B.C. to infinity C.E.
Re:Put this letter in your memory! (Score:1)
Re:Why does the Dreamcast get so much flak? (Score:1)
:p too bad Sega, suck righteousness (Score:1)
Re:Voltaire & Free speech (Score:1)
Re:PSX was popular BECAUSE games were copyable! (Score:2)
Interesting theory, but unfortunately false. I've just returned to the US after three years in China. Microsoft has a team of lawyers and investigators working full time cracking down on piracy--with more sucess than most. Indeed, they're by far the most agressive anti-piracy bunch in the region, doing a lot more than other manufacturers of frequently-pirated stuff, like Polo shirts, Rolex watches and Hello Kitty.
Re:Well, this has come to be expected (Score:1)
Now, they mention that a serial was included in the NFO, but no serial information exists in iSONews's posting of the NFO. So there is nothing illegal.If anything, it's helpful. A good 50% of the information in the NFO is Maxim's own ad copy about the game.
I don't see what's wrong.
Re:I understand the prevailing attitude here, but. (Score:2)
Slashdot has about ten thousand readers. No more, no less. The rest of the user accounts are simply those made by the trolls and other kiddies who live on the website, reloading the front page every fifteen seconds who need multiple usernames in order to carry out long, detailed conversations with themselves. Don't underestimate those ten thousand, even if they are a much smaller number than one expects, given the 250k user accounts.
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stupid trendy conformist groups (Score:1)
Re:Why does the Dreamcast get so much flak? (Score:1)
B. Ah Zelda, pokemon and Mario are owned by Nintendo. Do you mean good licenses or good 1st party games? If you mean good first party games than no one can compete with Sega. Look at there dominant arcade line up. Games like Sonic, crazy taxi, NFL 2k, Shenmue, seamen, Panzer dragoon all game directly from sega. As for Sony's first party software -- it sucks! Sony is a hardware not a software company almost all of their games were made by other companies; if someone were to steal the third party support they would steal all of Sony's games. As for their licenses I have heard companies complain about Sony. Eidos had to sign an exclusive contract with Sony in order to get a favorable licenses. As soon as the contract was over they got behind the dreamcast. Sony acts like they are the only game in town -- if they keep doing that even if they aren't the only game in town they could really upset their 3rd party support.
C. Sega did everything they could to support the saturn. Did they need to come out with Burning rangers, shining force 3 or houe of the dead in 1998? They lost money on all three of them. The problem was that Sega was too small of a company to support the 32x, sega CD, genesis, saturn, arcade, and game gear all at the same time. They tried to support all of these systems but couldn't; their marketing suffered. They should have dropped the 32x, sega CD and game gear like nintendo dropped the virtual boy. If they put the entire company behind the saturn life would be different. Oh well, that is in the past. Do you avoid Ford because of the Edsel? Why avoid Sega because of the 32x (note the saturn was a great system and did just fine against the ps1 in Japan -- a country were the games are more important then the marketing?) The fact is that the DC is a great console that has tons of great games and has a nice price.
No way Sega can compete with sony? That is what they said in 1995 about sony and nintendo. Fourtunes can change in a second in this industry. Who would have thought that Atari would flop? Who would think the genesis would break the nintendo monopoly? Don't count your chickens before they hatch. If Sony ignores the dreamcast threat they will be burried by it. Luckely for Sony they haven't ignored the dc. Do you think the ps2 would be coming out in a month if it weren't for the dreamcast? Sony was perfectly happy with the idea of selling old ps1 games for a couple more years -- it is Sega that pushed the next generation war forward.
Re:Well, this has come to be expected (Score:1)
eg. A Chemistry text book doesn't tell you how to build a bomb to blow up specific US embassy.
Being the provider of specific information eg. "I told him there was a weakness so he could break into that system at address foo.bar" or "I told the killer that Jane Doe would be leaving the building at 8:00pm." CAN make you an accessory to a crime.
I'm all for freedom of speech as much as the rest of you guys, but you people seem to forget that there are other laws in place to protect other people's rights. Would you like it if someone told the world that your car you worked hard long hours to buy, was unlocked so they could go and steal it? Somehow I don't think so.
You people are not the only ones with rights you know.
Why does the Dreamcast get so much flak? (Score:5)
Besides, Sega tries stuff in the states that there's no way Sony would even think of doing... Seaman, for instance, is an awesome "game" that does some truly innovative stuff that sega took a chance with and released in the states.
Anyway, I'm not a huge console gamer, but if any next-gen console survives, I hope it's Sega's.
--
NeoMail - Webmail that doesn't suck... as much.
Re:Well, this has come to be expected (Score:1)
OH! Wait, thise are security sites read by admins who want to PREVENT break-ins!
(yeah, I know it's a troll, but I'll bite anyway) No, it is NOT like annoucing a root kit. Like bomb making instructions, root kits are often involved in crime, but it is perfectly legal to distribute either one. Illegally distributing ISOs is (obviously) illegal.
ISONews basically takes reports about crimes in progress and announces them to a gang neighborhood instead of law enforcement.
The line can be a fine one, I admit. For instance, you can legally post a root kit. However, if you posted a list of vulnerable IPs next to it and some or all of those IPs were later cracked by a root kit downloaded from your site, you are probably an accessory before the fact.
(as an aside, I agree that Sony, Sega, etc should seriously consider using these sites as a sting operation instead of busting them up)
Re:Voltaire & Free speech (Score:1)
Minupla
----
Remove the rocks from my head to send email
Well, this has come to be expected (Score:4)
It's %100 true that ISONEWS does not distribute images of games, but the difference here is that ISONEWS reports news of groups releases of games.
They send out their own 'press releases' if you will that state they have released the latest game.
The question is: what is legal, or illegal about these 'press releases' (otherwise known as NFO files).
If these NFO files can be found as not breaking any laws: then sega has no case, otherwise, isonews has a bit of a problem.
I don't recall remembering anyone that has successfully been litigated upon for having mere NFO files.
Re:What sega is doing (Score:1)
With the exception of the Genesis, most Sega platforms start out, have a few games made for them, and get cancelled. How many people bought a Sega CD? or a 32X? or even a Saturn? How many of these platforms are still around?
Sega stops supporting their systems pretty fast, all things considered. Hell, I've seen SNESes being sold, and how old are they? Nintendo is still selling Game Boys, admittedly redesigned, and with new features, but it's still the same system. I remember getting my first one over 10 years ago, and it's still going?
No, I'll never buy a DreamCast - not because of crappy games, or poor specs, but because I don't feel like paying $250 (Canadian) to get fucked by Sega. I didn't make that mistake before, and I'm not about to again.
~Sentry21~
I am all for free speech but... (Score:2)
let's use an analogy to real life: what if you had a site like drugnews.com, that tells you everything about the newest drugs released, their latest effects, and maybe has a forum with various people who know how to get those drugs and whom you can email etc.
or an even better analogy: what if there was a site like stolengoods.com, where you see the booties of recent robberies, again with the message boards etc. how would you feel if you had been robbed and you saw your stuff traded on the site ? I bet you'd get pissed, wouldn't you ?
Like I said, I am all for free speech, but these sites IMHO are crossing the line: there is no reason for a law abiding citizen, somebody that doesn't pirate games, to go on these sites, and there is no reason for these sites to exist besides helping piracy and making money off it (via banner ads etc.).
Free speech is a right, but helping people commit crimes is not a right.
I am also appalled at the quality of the post, I mean, I know that
One must also remember the EMU scene (Score:2)
Many EMU sites have been sent similar letters.. so really this should come as no suprise to anyone following sega and their paths of litigation.
Buying Sega Stock (Score:1)
Re:Well, this has come to be expected (Score:2)
Re:Well, this has come to be expected (Score:3)
However, I believe knowingly aiding in a criminal act *IS* a crime itself.
If these people at ISONEWS know that these are *illegal* ISOs that are being announced, they could perhaps be seen as assisting in their spread, even if it's just to make people aware they exist.
Since they're not the first (Score:1)
Brian Peace
Drum N Bass Massive [dyndns.org]
Re:Why does the Dreamcast get so much flak? (Score:1)
Re:Quiz time (Score:1)
Videogame sales have caught up and finally surpassed movie ticket sales this year. Games nowdays cost at least a million dollars to make too. Almost everyone that actually does the gruntwork on the project spends many hours working overtime just to meet milestones so they can pay their rent.
P.S. Downloading warez is different than going to a store and stealing a boxed copy. If I steal a boxed copy, the store does not make money on that item. If I download a copy nobody is hurt. You can argue differently but I can honestly tell you that I would not pay for the software in the first place. In my mind the quality of the software has to match the price I'm willing to pay for it. Like Marvel vs. Capcom - $50. Winzip - pirated, I don't think this program is worth anything. Office 2000 - pirated, I like it but I can easily live without it. MSVC - $100 (even though the linker and the ide blows with large projects).
The only ones really worried about piracy are the unstable companies, publishers, and other people making royalties on the games.
Re:Wait! Wait! I have a better analogy! (Score:1)
Re:Quiz time (Score:1)
Umm.. please (Score:2)
Re:Why does the Dreamcast get so much flak? (Score:1)
Constitutionary rights? (Score:1)
Re:I am all for free speech but... (Score:1)
Re:Stop being a dink Taco (Score:2)
CD players have improved quite a bit in the last few years. Most of the technology is in the form of digital-to-analog converters. If you think that they're all the same, try throwing a mid to high-end DAC in a system with a CD player more than a few years old (or even a cheap new one). It will make a believer out of you.
Of course, we *know* that better computers are coming out in a year. But if you keep waiting you'll never buy one. It's certainly a thin line to walk, and the concept works for most everything (cars, computers, stereos, TVs, golf clubs...).
Re:PSX was popular BECAUSE games were copyable! (Score:1)
Re:Free & regulated speech aren't mutually exclusi (Score:2)
Has banning it ever stopped it? Some pornography actualy I believe provides a societal release valve, child pornography is obviously wrong, but again have we stopped it by saying it's evil and should be banned?
* Revisionism (The holocaust is a bunch of lies)
Sure, I also support Ken McVay's efforts to put together the largest collection of pro holocaust data in the world. The solution to problems involving freedom of speech is usually more freedom of speech, not less.
* Hate speech (Homosexuals should die)
See revisionist, often the same thing anyways
* Pro drugs speech (Drugging yourself is good )
have you turned on your TV lately? That's what 99% of TV seems to say.
* Blackmailing (If you don't do what I want I will tell about that interesting thing that happened in your company the other day)
Freedom of speech ends where it impacts on someone else's freedom. I wouldn't advocate freedom to yell fire in a crowded room, same reasons.
* Sexual harassment (need I provide examples ?)
See above. Your freedom to swing your fist ends where my nose begins
A note to bring this into prospective:
ISOnews has done none of the above. ISOnews simply said, "This stuff exists" and I'm willing to bet has been used by the BSA and law enforcment to gather evidence.
Similarly the CIL explosives handbook documents how to make a bomb. I've never seen it pulled from a libary cuz a mad bomber might use it.
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Remove the rocks from my head to send email
Re:Quiz time (Score:1)
I heard from a few people I know who download warez. Their contention is that they don't download anything they would actually buy, therefore they aren't causing a loss of revenue to the company. Many of them spend a lot of money buying software that they want if they think it's reasonably priced. Then they turn around and DL stuff that they want if they can't justify spending the money. I even know of a few who went and purchased copies of software they had downloaded because they felt it was worth having the full package with books, support, etc.
As far as walking into a shop and shoplifting, that is much different (in their minds). There is media, books and stuff - actually physical property that would otherwise be sold for profit.
If nothing physical is taken, and no revenue is lost, these people seem to be OK with it. It just doesn't sound quite right to me, but these otherwise model citizens have no trouble sleeping at night.
Re:question ... THEY AREN'T telling that (Score:1)
I've been to isonews before, I used to check the site regularly, post in the forums, etc. I've been in the scene, and I'm well aware that they don't post anything "illegal" and ban anyone from the forums who tries such a thing.
The problem with isonews is simple: they provide information that is connected to illegal activities. An NFO file with details on who released movie X or game Y has nothing to do with making legal backups or any of the other stupid excuses the pirating community comes up with to legitimize their practices. Isonews doesn't provide any illegal content, but the intent is definitely there.
I agree with you, though, Sega doesn't have any idea what they're doing. They're attacking (mostly) harmless middlemen rather than the rippers/distributors/traders themselves. With the NFO files, Sega even has a potentially simple way to pin a large sum of piracy charges on a small group of individuals, provided they can match up nicks to real names.
Corporations are mostly clueless when it comes to criminal activity on the internet. If someone could show them how to focus their efforts on the actual source of the problem, perhaps things like SDMI and DeCSS would have never happened.
Re:Well, this has come to be expected (Score:1)
*cough*..
you would know, toast... you would know..
-nd
Re:thin line between news reporting and involvemen (Score:1)
Let's say for the sake of argument that they have some sort of script that runs on a big ISO site, and auto-updates the webpage, based on what gets upped.. The same script auto-extracts the
It would not be illegal to run that script.. Nor would it even be illegal to login to the site.. Then you get into the whole old argument of 'is couriering legal'?
Is shell trading more illegal than proxying, etc, etc?
I am by no means an expert, but afaik, it's still ok to LOGIN to sites.. just not to download from them..
Can anyone confirm or refute this?
Re:PSX was popular BECAUSE games were copyable! (Score:1)
Of course being pirated doesn't "do much for the software", the software has no interests of its own to further. It certainly can, however, help the company that produces the software.
It can be very effectively used as a method of dumping product on the market. In the short term you don't enforce your copyright. You put all the messages on but take no action against copiers. You allow the spread of copies to build your market share, then you start enforcing your copyright and demanding licence fees.
It's much cheaper than dumping has been for traditional goods because there's no per unit cost to you, all the cost is borne by the "pirates". It's also very hard to make a case against you for anti-competitive practices, after all you are charging a fair competitive price, what can you do about the evil pirates ripping you off?
You note yourself that piracy of Windows and Office are most prevalent in "the developing world" i.e. those markets where building a long term presence will hopefully be profitable but where there is little potential for profitability right now. Quietly encouraging piracy of your products in these markets makes perfect sense.
Re:I'd have to agree with you (Score:1)
Sony is a consumer electronics mega-company, they remind me of OCP in the Robocop movies. One of the things I hate about their new console is it is obviously an "everything box" and not primarily a game machine.
I'm pretty depressed about the whole console scene lately, the last time a more generally oriented consumer company (Time/Warner, after they purchased Atari) took over the industry, it was a disaster.
Of course, Sega takes part of the blame. The whole SegaCD/32X/Saturn debacle just ended up alienating consumers who didn't like spending money on systems just to see them abandoned.
Sega isn't in as much trouble as people think, what's really killing them is: a) Third party developers abandoning them for Sony (just like back in the days when you made games for Nintendo, or else) and b)People who wait for a system from Sony to come out despite all the negative things I've read about the Japanese rollout.(Were the Japanese beta-testers or is it just a bad system? Either way, it's pretty clear that if the same console were rolled out by a no-name company it would have already been sunk in the market.)
Re:The Big Business Bill Of Rights (Score:1)
hmmmm..... (Score:1)
W4r3z k1dd1e get's in trouble == Oh No! He has rights!
Re:Guilt by association... ouch (Score:1)
Re:I am all for free speech but... (Score:1)
ok your analogies aren't helping your side of the argument too much...
free speech is not free speech if you get to call it illegal just because something pisses you off.
besides, isonews only posts -information- about things that have been released. there are no links to download.
"i may hate what you say but i will defend to the death your right to say it."
- i dont remember who this quote originally came from, but i agree with it..
For the Sega supporters (Score:2)
Re:Guilt by association... ouch (Score:1)
"But you honor, he posts to slashdot."
Guilt be association is not cool, and should never be used. If they can prove that the operators pirate games, that's something else entirley.
Re:Quiz time (Score:1)
I do think that backups under the banner of "backups" are right (a right, in fact, just hanging in there). Since Sega (or Sony, or EA, or Blizzard...) won't tell me how to back up the software I just bought (and I am talking about software I bought, not downloaded), then I'm happy for GameCopyWorld to tell me, and I'll use that information.
Particularly in the case of PC games where they will install 500Mb+ (or 1200Mb+, Diablo II, I'm looking at you), and still require the CD(s), I more or less always will use the noCD 'crack' for that game, for no other reason than to reduce wear and tear on the CDs that I can't copy.
What is the software company's argument against this practice? At the end of it, I have either my archival copy on CDR, or a much less vulnerable uncopiable CDROM... naturally since all computer software users are thieves by default, I am going to post the ISOs of those CDROMs to all and sundry, I suppose.
You are playing into the hands of lawyers at Sega, Nintendo and all of those people, when you think of "copying" as a synonym for "pirating", which the quoted sentence above implies.
A better example than yours... (Score:2)
>and asks if I know where he might find some
>crack and I tell him that the crackhouse down
>the street might be a good place to start
>should I be arrested as a drug dealer?
I think, in this case, that my examples fit a little better than yours.
Back in May, just after I moved here, one of the local TV stations had a special on their nightly news profiling "San Francisco's biggest 'black market'".
Seems that there's a streach of road in SOMA that's notorious as a black market for damn near anything you'd care to buy. Drugs, hookers, stolen electronics, stolen jewelry, and DVDs (w/o regional encoding, and thus guaranteed to make the MPAA all pissy) imported from Hong Kong were a few of the items the news mentioned.
So, if *I* were to go down there to score a hit of X, would the TV station be responsible for *MY* actions???
In the Guardian's "Best of the Bay" list a few weeks back, one of the categories was "Best place to score weed if you're new to town and don't have a hookup yet".... they mentioned a certian park in Berkeley.
So, if *I* were to go over there to score a bag of weed, would the Guardian be responsible for *MY* actions???
In both cases, common sence AND morality would both say no....
But then, both corperations and the law are routinely immoral AND nonsenceical...
john
Resistance is NOT futile!!!
Haiku:
I am not a drone.
Remove the collective if
Re:Is this similar to DupeCheck.com? (Score:1)
Through a deal with DoD we have a search very similiar to the old Dupecheck.com for 0-Day (ripped) releases.
The iSONEWS database, though, is manually updated and maintained seperate of other scene release databases.
One of dupecheck's problems, at least legally, was that its release listing consisted of directory names from FTP sites. This is a lot more information than just saving the name of the game (for various reasons).
Do you people actually read the links??? (Score:1)
There are two major issues here:
1. Wether ISOnews' stuff is infrigment.
That's possibly for the courts to decide, and IANAL so I won't try to justify either party's reasonings (however, my stereo's manual does instruct me on how to record to tape from CD; should they be sued?? Food for thought.)
2. Sega's strong armed tactics against ISOnews and other sites.
I think this is the major issue. They're threatning legal action against a site, citing copyright laws, but not providing any specifics as to how said law was possibly broken, as required by said law. This seems to be typical of companies these days.
Now, if you don't know what I'm talking about, then I invite you to actually read the links attached to the article.
Re:Well, this has come to be expected (Score:1)
When a pirated copy of Stars Wars Episode I was released last spring, every news agency--newspaper, magazine, tv--ran a story on it. Lucasfilm sent iSONEWS a happy little email about our reporting that, although I HIGHLY doubt they bothered to send CNN or ABCNews a letter.
The fact of the matter is iSONEWS is nothing more than a news and reporting site that covers events the mainstream media usually does not.
Let yet another boycott begin! (Score:1)
Support your local bootlegger!!!
Re:PSX was popular BECAUSE games were copyable! (Score:2)
What I want to know is do the hardware vendors realise this? Sony and Sega put a lot of effort into preventing piracy. Of course they get money from sales and not from piracyy too, so its in their interests. Are there any examples of something that we can prove flourished through piracy?
Let's all pretend to be suprised! (Score:2)
1) Several sites figure out how to successfully copy GD-ROMs. Since this was a uniquish format Sega used in order to prevent piracy. Granted, these may not be news sites, but who actually makes backups of their CD-like medium games? I still haven't met the person.
2) This dissemination of knowledge is potentially very damaging to Sega. Unlike Napster, which many users use to sample music, and buy the CD, ISO copies are not very likely to "sample" the game they copy, and then run out and buy it for $50.
3) Since the sites aren't actually doing anything illegal themselves, the most sensible tactic from a business standpoint is to strong arm them. Cease and desist letters have been in practice by the IDSA and their clients for a while (remember that whole N64 emu deal?). Since it's unlikely any of these sites will be able to fund a competent defence, the most probably result is that the site is taken down.
Personally, I'm not crying. I do not support wholesale piracy, and you're just lying to yourself if you don't think that's what this is about. Sure, some first ammendment rights are getting trampled, but I think people need to learn to pay for things -- especially entertainment.
So let's all pretend to be suprised, and get it out of our system. Oh my! Big bad Sega's pooping on the first ammendment! Good heavens! There. I feel better now. Don't you?
Voltaire & Free speech (Score:4)
To quote Voltaire, "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
The funny thing with Free Speech, you ethier have it or you don't. The minute you start saying, "Well this speech is OK, but that speech over there, that has to go", you open Pandora's box.
Personally there's a lot of stuff on TV or radio that I would rather not see. It all comes down to, what is one man's offensive trash, is another man's free speech, and simply because I believe that a certian site shouldn't exist (for whatever moral, legal, religous, or phil grounds) I have to respect their right to say it. Full stop. This is one of those things you can't do half way, lest you get book bannings, and all other sorts of bad karma stuff.
Like it or lump it, it's free speech
Minupla
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Remove the rocks from my head to send email
Re:Wait! Wait! I have a better analogy! (Score:1)
Bruce
Ambulance chasing? Now it's .com chasing (Score:4)
20th Century: Ambulance chasing
21st Century:
It's just the latest easy-peasy way of lining their pockets. I bet they charge $100 per letter/e-mail!
Re:PSX was popular BECAUSE games were copyable! (Score:2)
Excellent question. There are plenty of examples of thing that flourished (ie, were made commercialy sucessful) though unpaid copying, such as Doom and other demoware, but that's different. The previous posters' examples of Windows and Office are clearly bogus. Piracy not why those two suceeded; indeed, most of the piracy is in the developing world (China, esp) and of foreign-language versions. How about Photoshop? That's got to be one of the most pirated apps out there.
The real answer, however, is that piracy helps PC sales, but doesn't do much for the software being pirated.
Is this similar to DupeCheck.com? (Score:2)
Now, I don't know exactly what happened to DupeCheck, but my gut says that something simliar happened to them that is happening to iSONEWS. Does anybody know anything further?
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CitizenC
SEGA is in big trouble as a company. (Score:3)
SEGA stock is down 75% from its peak early this year. [stockmaster.com] They're losing money. And they don't have an entry in the next generation race: Sony has the PS2, Nintendo has the GameCube, and Microsoft has the X-Box. Sega? Well, Sega has a new GameBoy-like unit. Maybe they're moving to the handheld market.
So SEGA is sinking. One article on SEGA wrote "This company is dead", but it's too soon to tell.
First Amendment? (Score:3)
Would it be illegal to post a news site with the topic of... oh, how about Cmdr Taco's house: www.tacohome.com. There could be different sections, like:
Blueprints
Resident Traffic News *updated frequently*
Resident Traffic Patterns : daily
Security Analysis : 9/27
Invasion Scenarios : 9/29 (2 new)
Likely Valuables / Locations
Links
Of course, the links would be to stores that sell stuff that would be useful in a home invasion. Or online gun stores. Maybe simple HOWTOs on how to disable phone lines and other communication.
It's just freedom of speech, baby. I'm not doing anything wrong. You can't prosecute me.
Oh, but wait, that's different. Is there some area where I can be legally right, but morally wrong? How?
Because this situation isn't what the framers of the consititution had in mind. Big troop movement was horses, and guns had firing rates of one round per minute. Information traveled at horse-speed. Information travel was so slow and so deliberate that it took weeks for wars to end. No concept of fast information transfer... no idea that information transfer would become the center of the economy. I'm not saying they were unintelligent or wrong, they built the best system in the world, for it's time.
Stories like this are why I secretly pray for some kind of magical legal armageddon, so that we can start over and write relevant laws. Because our legal system is the best, it's the best in the world, but the laws under it are like a software architechture that's been hacked to work for over 200 years. The design is good, but you can hardly see through the spaghetti of maintenance.
So why talk about how ISOnews is legally right? Sure it is, and Sega is doing the legally wrong thing to go after the website. But why not talk about how what ISOnews is doing is morally wrong?
I mean, this isn't Cuecat and their dopey business strategy, and using lawyers to make money. This is theft, and someone "innocently" being the center of that community.
I know that arguing morals is a slippery slope, but man, I love my Dreamcast and it just pisses me off to see people stealing what is pretty much an awesome toy made by brilliant people.
[Sorry I singled out Taco, but he doesn't obviously know dreamcast sales from Slashdot's back end.
Re:Quiz time (Score:2)
Nobody, I hope. But do you think it's right to prohibit fair use, due to fear of piracy? That's what copy protection and weird non-ISO CD formats do.
15 years from now, someone who bought these games are going to want to run them under an emulator. Having them stored in a standard format instead of a weird one that needs a special drive, is going to be useful. Therefore, it's ethical.
If Sega wants to combat piracy, then the first step would be to stop using weird formats and copy protection. Then they can do searches with a pretty high degree of confidence that whatever they find will be copyright infringement. Until then, they'll have no way of telling pirates and honest people apart, since the pirates and the honest people both need to use the same tools, information, etc. This results in goofy things like C&D letters being sent to ISONews.
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Re:I am all for free speech but... (Score:4)
Stop being a dink Taco (Score:3)
When you tack your lame comments on stories you show yourself to be a very petty person.
Why wait 18 months to get bascially the same thing - and pay more for it.
This reminds me of my former roommate that didn't want to buy a CD player because "something better was coming". This was in 1997.
Re:Well, this has come to be expected (Score:2)
Quiz time (Score:4)
Yes sure ISONews is just that - a news site, and I'm not going to argue semantics on whether or not sega is being heavy handed, other than proposing this: if you coded games for a living, to sell, and yes increase the value of your business, would you like people to post them where people could download them?
Warez fascinates me I guess, because people that wouldn't steal anything material - ie wouldn't walk into a shop and steal one of these games, feel totally justified in downloading them.
I don't want to start a fight, I'd just really like to see some other opinions on this. Is it ethical?
What sega is doing (Score:3)
Why do people make jokes like
The fact of the matter is that the DC is inexpensive for a next generation console, it has TONS of great games (Seamen, Sega GT, NFL 2k, SC, Crazy Taxi, Get bass, house of the dead 2, Resident evil CV, power stone 1 and 2, sonic
Re:Well, this has come to be expected (Score:2)
Re:Quiz time (Score:2)
Actually, yes, this is a case of free speech. The ISONews site does have legitimate backups. The reason: it is legal to back up software; this is fair use. It is also, however, legal to obtain a backup copy of the software you already own, even if it is an Internet download (note, though, that it may not be legal to provide it for download, if you don't own the game yourself and don't take all technically feasible measures to verify that the people downloading the ISO actually own it). For people who can't make their own ISO's (and there are a great many people who can't), this is a very valuable service indeed.
It's also interesting to note that the people who send out the press releases are totally legitimate. After all, in order to rip the game to an ISO, they must have purchased the game to rip from. (OK, theoretically they could rent the game, but last I checked Dreamcast ripping isn't simple stuff, and takes longer to do than it is practical to rent a game for). Advertising the downloadable image, as a service to people who legitimately own the game, is also legal.
Now, is this an ethical thing to do? It depends. Look at what Sega is doing: is punishing innocent people for crimes they aren't committing ethical (and this does happen to many people, either directly or indirectly due to Sega's actions, by being deprived of their right to protect their investment by backing up legitimately-purchased software)? I wouldn't say so, and in this case providing backups to people who could not otherwise get them is quite ethical. However, is putting up ISO's with no verification of ownership, knowing that people will download them illegally, ethical? Again, no.
However, how do you get proof of ownership? This is not an easy thing to do, because it really can't be done reliably. You could have someone scan in the disc and e-mail it to you, but this isn't reliable because scans can be posted anywhere. Receipts can also be faked easily. Serial numbers aren't provided on console games (they're not practical for a console), so this is no good. Sending in the actual game is a possibility, but also hideously impractical as it incurs the charges and delays of sending it back (plus, what happens if the game is lost or damaged in transit?) Also, there's no way to be sure that one person isn't simply lending the game out to his friends so they can send it in to get their own copies. If you could somehow get access to credit card records, that would work for some game owners, but people can and do sometimes pay cash or use a check, so you cannot verify ownership for these people (and illegitimate users can always claim to have paid cash, which you can't prove they didn't do).
So there's no reliable way to prove ownership of a game. Therefore, the converse is also true; you cannot prove that someone does not own a game. Given this, is it ethical to assume someone is trying to commit copyright infringement if you can't prove that they are? No, this isn't ethical either.
In other words, this is a real damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. If you take down the ISO's because you can't prove anyone owns the game, you're punishing innocent people for copyright infringement (which they are not doing). If you leave them up with no attempt at verification, people will download them illegitimately. And you cannot verify, because of the numerous false-positives and false-negatives you'll get (in the end, in fact, this would be worse than no verification at all).
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How about drug trafficing news.com? (Score:2)
And cmdrtaco, your ass is wrong on DC sales by over 6 million #'s. SO get off the PS2 bandwagon and give some stories that are truthfull instead of spitefull to your limited mindset.
Yes, slashdot is suckdot really bad right now. My viewership has gone from several times a day to once a week. Nothing worth noting. Linux is old news, patent infringements are passe and geezus christ, what are you defending with the Sega VS isonews.com
I should make a slashdotnews.com and setup programs that are illegal to send out but have news on how to view sites without legal signons, spam them and not get banner adds sent. But then again it wouldn't be illegal because i'm just talking about the software and not "technically" giving it to you.
Condone freedom of speech, don't condone illegal activities no matter how much it saves you money to waiste on whatever else material things people are so stuck up on.
PS2 Sucks, get a Sega DreamCast.
Re:Well, this has come to be expected (Score:2)
If these people at ISONEWS know that these are *illegal* ISOs that are being announced, they could perhaps be seen as assisting in their spread, even if it's just to make people aware they exist.
Sort of like announcing that a new root-kit has been released, or that a new weakness was found in bind or sendmail.
OH! Wait, thise are security sites read by admins who want to PREVENT break-ins!
Yes, there is a distinction, but there is some controversy there. I'm certain that more than one software vendor would like for bugtraq and others to quit posting about their security flaws. If posting information on how a person might commit a crime is itself a crime, say good bye to those sites.
If Sony was smart, they'd read that site with great interest so they could know what and who to look for. If they were really smart, they'd have set up such a site themselves (behind a front person that is) and encourage posting of how to get the latest warez and piracy utilities.
If I was in Sega's position.. (Score:2)
Free & regulated speech aren't mutually exclusive (Score:2)
* Pornography of any kind (need I provide examples ?)
* Revisionism (The holocaust is a bunch of lies)
* Hate speech (Homosexuals should die)
* Pro drugs speech (Drugging yourself is good )
* Blackmailing (If you don't do what I want I will tell about that interesting thing that happened in your company the other day)
* Sexual harassment (need I provide examples ?)
and so on, and so on.
From your line of reasoning it follows that in our society we do not have free speech, since the above mentioned things are regulated, and personally I'd like it to remain that way.
Free speech is a right unless it infringes on anybody else's rights I can utter sexist remarks all I want in my bathroom, but if I do it repeatedly in the workplace I can get charged with sexual harassment (and that's a good thing) because those sexist remarks infringe on my coworker's liberty of not feeling threatened.
Now we can discuss all day on which liberties deserve protection (a non smoker thinks that they have the right not to have smokers around, while a smoker thinks they have the right to smoke wherever they please) but IMHO free speech and regulated speech are not mutually exclusive.
Wait! Wait! I have a better analogy! (Score:4)
Ok. So. Another friend of yours both bought a lock from toolshedlockshop.com and read the instructions on toolshedtheft.com. Only problem is, he doesn't know about the electrician's tape thing. So, he goes to break in to your next-door neighbor's toolshed, but doesn't tape up her pet poodle (obviously), so he gets bitten by the poodle as he's trying to climb the fence to get out of her yard. So the next day this friend comes to you with half a canteloupe and asks you where to get rabies shots. Considering that you've been wanting to sleep with your next door neighbor whose canteloupe he stole for months, but you hate her poodle, but also now know that you can make a killing in the electricians' tape market, do you tell your friend you still have five CD's and an old sweatshirt that he left at your house four months ago?
Bruce
Re:PSX was popular BECAUSE games were copyable! (Score:2)
It kinda works both ways: as an employer, you're more likely to buy software your employees are already familiar with, and as an employee, you're more likely to "borrow" a cd from work, install the software and pass copies on to all of your friends. For this reason, WordPerfect never made a big stink about home users pirating their stuff left and right way back when, because they knew millions of businesses (who could hardly afford running the risk of using illegal copies) would buy licenses. It's free advertisement for them. No money gets lost (like I said, home users don't cough up USD 500 for some piece of software) and your user base grows like crazy.
I seriously doubt, though, that this is a sound business model for a console games. Not only are there no businesses that will buy millions of Metal Gear Solid licenses just because their employees know how to play it, but console manufacturers also sell their hardware at a loss, hoping to make up for it in software sales.
Re:Well, this has come to be expected (Score:2)
Hello, can we at least try to know the law? (Score:2)
This is typical of 'big-business' (Score:2)
It all comes down to money after all. By using heavy handed tactics like this Sega can kill the most birds with one stone. I applaud ISONews for standing up for their, and everyone's, right.
MoTec
-nothing to see here... move along
Re:I am all for free speech but... (Score:2)
somebody at sega had to go to isonews.com to gather information, so according to your postulate, whoever did that is either not law abiding or not a citizen. if sega is hiring people that are not law abiding then maybe the people running isonews.com should apply for jobs.
question ... (Score:2)
If Sega's claims were even halfway valid, they're barking up the wrong tree.