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Ask Havenco's CTO Anything You'd Like 226

A few days ago you read here on Slashdot about the datahaven called Havenco poised to open six miles off the English coast, in the semi-recognized, undeniably eccentric principality of Sealand. Havenco CTO Ryan Lackey has graciously agreed to answer questions from Slashdot, and to involve others on the Havenco team in answering questions he can't. C'mon -- how can you not be curious about an off-shore datahaven in an anti-aircraft bunker? Ask questions in the space below, and we'll forward 10-15 of the highest moderated ones on to Ryan. [Updated 15:40GMT by timothy:] Remember, many of the obvious questions are answered on the Web sites above or in the comments of the first story. Fire away with meaty technical questions -- they're up for it!
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Ask Havenco's CTO Anything You'd like

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  • and as it's an artificial structure, the Royal Navy could presumably claim ownership

    As far as I understand the law, if a vessel is abandoned in international waters then anyone can claim salvage rights.
  • What type of safeguards are in place to prevent disruption of network services?
  • What about the obvious terrorist threat - to Sealand itself? Suppose Havenco begins to make a lot of money in gambling and porn (a likely possibility given the questionable legal status of both in various jurisdictions). Or suppose that opposition parties in less than friendly nations (Yugoslavia, China, Zimbabwe) began to post their websites there, beyond the range of local authorities, like B92 does with xs4all.nl.

    In this case, of course authoritarian ISPs (Singnet, China Telecom, AOL) would block the IPs .. but couldn't a fatwa-equipped terrorist show up with a bunch of plastique and simply suicide-bomb it away?

    I would suspect that the Taliban, Hezbollah, Focus on the Family, or other fundamentalist types would be able to come up with a guy with a motorboat and some Semtex. Will the Royal Navy come out to save the former outpost? Survey says no. And I don't see Havenco suddenly developing a global intelligence service and high-powered navy to keep the NON-cyber terrorists away.

    It brings new meaning to the term "denial of service." And "single point of failure."

    Andrew
  • I spoke with either you or another person about this awhile back. I don't have the e-mail right now, nor do I want to post it in public w/o your permission, however about 3-5 months ago this was still a project in its infancy and the CTO (I believe that would be you) were in college.

    I'll keep it short and sweet - if this is legit, where did you get the money, what are your approximate costs, and how many customers do you have presently? In addition, most customers utilizing a service such as the one you provide have serious concerns about physical integrity of their server: a physical compromise of the system can rarely be detected remotely. What are your plans for ensuring mutual tamper-proof systems (ie, you cannot tamper with them without your customer knowing and vice versa)?

  • Yes, but the AUP is quite vague on that point. It seems that right now all they won't allow is kiddie porn at the Prince of Sealand's request. There is still plenty of questionable material to be had.

    Another post [slashdot.org] makes that clearer, though.

    And, according to another post [slashdot.org], HavenCo will be taking control of the island, which means they can define legal/illegal (maybe, I dunno the exact terms). It's still a sticky issue.

  • serious tho... if the major governments wont support you, at least their geeks will.
  • by um... Lucas ( 13147 ) on Wednesday June 07, 2000 @06:31AM (#1019564) Journal
    Forget about internet connectivity. In all honesty, I'd like to know what sort of defense systems you're country has? What are you going to do if some country gets angry about what you're posting and decides to invade? Honestly! I mean, anyone can take of say, martha's vineyard, with just a few people and declare it it's own independant country, but the US could and would drive them out in a heartbeat. Likewise, I could find a desserted island in the pacific and say it's mine, but only until a country with more weapons than me decides they'ed like it instead... You could ally with another country, and use their arms as your own, but in all likelyhood, the entire purpose of this country seems to be to be able to disregard other countries laws... Thererfore, places like the US, France, etc... aren't very likely to step up to defend you...
  • Hello,
    I've looked at your website and see that you have a management team in place, but I'm wondering about your staffing set-up. Answers to any or all of the questions below would be appreciated.

    Will your employees (especially technical staff) be bonded? If so, how?

    Will staff all be located locally on the island?

    Are you outsourcing any activities, such as intrusion detection or any network monitoring?

    What is the caliber of your technical staff? What kind of skills are you recruiting for? [And, are you hiring? :-) ]

    Are you taking any special measures to protect your staff (from physical, legal, or other factors)?

    Very interested,
    - sk
  • It sounds like you have made the physical site as secure as possible, short of dropping mines on the beach and putting rangers in gun towers. The only potential weak point that I have seen is your lines to the outside world. How do you plan on 1) protecting those lines, be it physical or sat link from attackers. 2) protecting that service. If your lines hub out to an MCI presence in say england (pardon, Im not totally up on havenco's exact physical location.) what would happen if MCI takes some heat and is forced to drop your service? any backup plans? 3) Protecting the traffic on those lines. While the data on your servers is encrypted, do you leave it up to your clients to encrypt the traffic going back and forth from havenco, or do you require something like browser encryption or ssh?
    and finally a small PR suggestion. Since this service is going to mostlly excite geeks, how about tossing a bone our way. Say a public PGP key server at havenco or something of that sort?

    ...and the geek shall inherit the earth...
  • I am in the process of building a 10 million dollar data center. My company is completely international, with locations all over the globe. For this reason, an international data center seems to be an optimal solution for us (details aside).

    The question I would have, far more important than having your lines severed, is what if your IP(s) wind up on every single national filter across the globe? Where will that leave companies which are being hosted by you? China will almost certainly block access to your IP(s). What happens when the US government blocks access to your IP range bassed on a request from Metallica? (Pun intended.) Where does that leave your clients?

    Also, how much of a data center can that fortress hold? Many data centers are massive, (Mine is relatively small, but still takes up a super-market sized building.

    Last but not least, how do you intend to get the hardware? Some of the hardware I am ording falls under US export regulations. Surely those regulations would be extended to include the Principality of Sealand, especially since it is not subject to any agreements made by the EU to prevent high-powered computing from falling into terrorist hands.

  • How do you plan on running typical matters of government? (such as taxes, citizens, tariffs, a judicial system, criminals, the death penalty, treason, etc.) Many people are frustrated with the beuarocracy and injustice of the governments in their own countries. Since you have the opportunity of building your own from scratch, what are your plans?

  • Sealand is obviously very small. Even if you manage your space and resources well, it's obvious that you will have plans for expanding to other island and island-like places in the future. Do you have your sights set on anywhere outside Sealand yet?
  • Dang you whippersnappers! Data havens go back at least as far as Bruce Sterling's Islands in the Net -- and probably before that too. I like Stephenson's work as much as the next guy (I dig The Diamond Age more than most) but most of the stuff in his books was written about somewhere else first. IMHO, what he's brilliant at is synthesis.

    Now if you'll pardon me, my Ensure's gettin warm and my oatmeal's gettin cold. mumble, mumble...Cryptonomicon..mumble, mumble data haven. Feh! ;-)


  • I'd like to be an Ammbassador at Large
    [for which I understand spelling isn't
    required]to Estonia.
    Even a minor post such as cook in
    the Sealand mission to the UN could
    get me out of a whole mess of parking tickets &
    one of them 'red white& blue' license plates.
    Looking around I don't seem to find much
    worthy to save but I hope you can keep those
    amusing naked ladies showing up in my Email.
    They make more sense than Windows or
    Neural path technology.
    I wish you well in your
    'Third Foundation'

    Now if only you could do something
    about the Free Masons who are causing these
    censorship problems in
    the first place [I BELIEVE, I BELIEVE]
    watch out for those MIXCROWAVE LASERS.
  • I see plenty of discussion here on the possibilities that any given nation may be opposed to the data hosted at HavenCo. Apparently, you don't realize that this is exactly what the world powers want. In fact, I would not be surprised if our Mr. Lackey was a puppet of the world Elite (political context), perhaps even unknowingly.
    This is not, in my opinion, a favorable situation. The world needs less centralization of power. This is an opportunity for more. And from the ``holes'' in the story, many exposed by questions in this discussion, all make it seem very likely that HavenCo will be controlled by, as I'll put it, a group unsincere to the cause.

    --Drew Vogel
  • would they look after them though? I mean it might be one thing to help them get off the island if there were a giant tidal wave coming or something, but since there's been shots exchange (at least I think they fired on a UK boat once) would the UK maybe decide not to do anything if someone attacked? Or are they maybe like the little sister you hate but you'll stop older kids from beating her up?
    "Leave the gun, take the canoli."
  • Are there any positions open in HavenCo for security specialists? Also, how do people submit their content to the sites they buy on HavenCo anonymously? Is HavenCo going to set up some anonymous redirectors in various countries? -wabe
  • At least, probably.

    Sealand is also the name of a well-known shipping company. When I mentioned the Sealand datahaven to my brother (who kindly introduced me to Neal Stephenson's books a few years ago and himself works on ships part of each year), he wrinkled his brow and said "Sealand? You mean the shippers?" ...

    timothy
  • What is the current/planned size of your technical staff, and what will be your requirements for applicants (UK/EU citizenship)? Also, will the staff become residents of Sealand? (And how do I sign up?)

  • by dingbat_hp ( 98241 ) on Wednesday June 07, 2000 @05:14AM (#1019577) Homepage

    Sealand will inevitably have thin comms links and so will be more exposed than most to a DoS attack. Recent cases have involved ISPs pulling user sites simply for being attacked in this way - they accept the target site is blameless, but pulled it "for the good of the majority of users" and the restoration of their own comms.

    How would Havenco respond to such an attack ? Taking the moral highground, or the pragmatic approach of letting individual users be picked off ?

  • Let us make the assumption for the moment that the HavenCo data haven really starts to take off. What applications do you see coming to the fore as your primary source of business. Do you see the development of a data haven leading to any new applications?
  • by Anonymous Coward
    We always are persecuted in this country called "slashdot". There is no freedom of speech for us, whereas the feudal rulers of this land (known as 'karma whores') are able to publish anything they like, and most of it pokes fun and discriminates against us, the Anonymous Cowards.

    We ACs lead a life of misery, frequently banding together and posting numerous articles together in our revolutionary movement for greater recognition. Unfortunately, factions form and it is common to see ACs fighting ACs, forgetting their cause.

    Will you shelter us? We don't have much money, but our wisdom shines from continent to continent. We are probably the most persecuted group on the internet, and need all the recognition and help we can get.

    on behalf of,
    Supreme United League of Anonymous Cowards (SULAC).
  • by georgeha ( 43752 ) on Wednesday June 07, 2000 @05:15AM (#1019580) Homepage
    From the pictures and schematics I've seen, it looks small, especially if you intend to cram it full of servers, dishes, generators, fuel, supplies and security guards.

    Are you going to sink more barges/piles to expand your area?

    George
  • Is anyone talking to you about setting up a currency system a la Stephenson?
  • There is a long tradition of "finders keepers" in English common law. Basically, if someone abandons a large structure out in the ocean away from 3 km territorial waters, whoever wants to stake a claim on it can be said to own it. Normally something like this would be owned by a citizen of another country, thus the land/property would 'belong' to that country.

    My point here is that the Royal Navy cannot really come in fifty years later and reclaim something that they built and abandoned out in international waters, especially if people have been living on it continuously. Of course, that says nothing about the status of the structure as a "real country" entitled to issue passports, etc. It just says that the structure really does belong to those who claim it. At least in the eyes of British law (though I'm obviously no expert) which is mostly what applies here.

  • by Julian Morrison ( 5575 ) on Wednesday June 07, 2000 @05:16AM (#1019583)
    What motivates you to set up a data haven? Are you motivated primarily by libertarian principle, or do you intend it mostly as a way to make money from sealand's sovereign status? Or both?

    Will you allow data that does any of the following:

    - evades taxes or excise?

    - breaks local morality and legislated morality (including where oppressive eg: Iran)?

    - belongs to political dissidents?

    - belongs to terrorists, organised-crime, etc?

    - is uploaded and maintained completely anonymously?

    - is maintained with absolutely no access granted to anyone trying to prosecute on grounds of its content?

    Do you percieve what you're doing as moral? If so why?
  • I've got two questions:

    (1) How connectied is Sealand to the rest of the world. What if other nations decided to try to cut Sealand off from international communications--would that be feasible given the number of data lines coming out of the country?

    (2) The data seems safe so long as it is sitting in your data haven, and, obviously, the security of the data is in your clients' hands once they've retrieved data from the haven, but what about in between the two. How do you propose to keep the data secure during transmission (i.e. uploading and downloading)?
  • I'm wondering how long the British govt would tolerate this if they found it to be too offensive. I mean, they sent warships halfway around the world to defend their claim to the Falklands. Also, I wonder about rogue governments such as Iraq that might be very interested in such a territory (can't at the moment think of any use they might have for it, but quite possibly there is one). Best of luck in this endeavor though, it's worthwhile and very interesting, IMHO.
  • Just saw a news story on (Australian) TV about Sealand, its nothing more than a small man made structure (ala mini oil rig) kind of structure.. and here I was thinking it was a real piece of land/island ...... the whole "country" could fall over!!!
  • Yeah, and don't forget why the oil rig was abandoned: it was replaced by orbital data havens. Can't wait for that...
  • Is Sealand based on the Duchy of Grand Fenwick as described in Leonard Wibberly's book "The mouse that roared"?
  • It seems to me that several slashdotters find coincidences with Cryptonomicon, as do I, but I was wondering more if anyone there had read Bruce Sterling's "Islands in the Net." In the book the three data havens aren't just storage locations, but they also create their own huge databases from sources like their own customer's data, and charge people/companies for access to their databases. Are you planning to create such a database and offer such a service?
  • We want to know how stable your chosen platform is!

    OK. So "Sealand" is the former Roughs Tower naval fort off the Essex coast. This structure was erected in 1942 (and hey, let's slashdot someone: picture of this at http://freespace.virgin .net/line.design/forts/sea_forts.htm [virgin.net]) and was not intended to be permanent. Tongue Sands Tower, a similar structure recently broke up and partially sank.

  • C'mon, folks. It's obvious that if you ever did anything or hosted anyone or offered any "service" that the G8 seriously dislike, it'd take them almost 10 minutes to turn your "principality" into smoking rubble slowly sinking into the North Sea.

    I'd suggest buying a surplus russian nuke and putting it on a dead-man switch. And even that might not do it.

    Any defense plans at all?...
  • Pardon me if I'm mistaken, but isn't Sealand actually a sunken boat? Can a boat be claimed as a country?
  • by milgram ( 104453 ) on Wednesday June 07, 2000 @04:53AM (#1019593)
    My first question is slightly silly, but did this idea arrive as a result of Cryptonomicon? The second is, where did you look for funding, and how will your backers affect your business plan? Third, are you planning on having banking services?
  • I understand that your entire Internet connection consists of a single satellite uplink. Which ISPs are you peering with so as to ensure that no single nation/or national alliance can sever your Internet connection?
  • by xyzzy ( 10685 ) on Wednesday June 07, 2000 @06:59AM (#1019595) Homepage
    And are you, as employees/founders of a company, prepared to be carted off at gunpoint, and possibly put on trial, for the activities of your business?
  • by matticus ( 93537 ) on Wednesday June 07, 2000 @04:53AM (#1019596) Homepage
    you're providing a service to people who in some cases can't get it anywhere else. how do you justify the fact that people are going to hold illegal data in your facility in the name of free speech?
  • What inspired you to create a data haven (was it the work of Gibson's Neuromancer series?) and do you think there is a long term future for the data haven concept, perhaps moving from offshore to orbital havens?
  • by zorgon ( 66258 ) on Wednesday June 07, 2000 @07:01AM (#1019600) Homepage Journal
    Don't be silly. Not Cryptonomicon, but Count Zero!

    {Conroy and Turner approach a seemingly abandoned oil platform by helicopter: the helipad is marked by a large biohazard symbol...}

    Conroy: Somebody tried to set it up once as a data haven, back before the war.
    ...
    Turner: There a biohazard down there?
    Conroy: Not anything you're not used to.

    from Count Zero, by William Gibson, 1986!

    Not to say that Stephenson's a Johnny-Mnemonic-Come-Lately, but hey, let's get the attributions correct ;)

  • by beff ( 135968 ) on Wednesday June 07, 2000 @04:57AM (#1019602) Homepage
    I agree that the best method is to retain good relations with your neighboring countries, but if relations go sour, what technologies are you implementing to ensure that no other country can sever your connectivity to the rest of the world?
  • by mpk ( 10222 ) <mpk@uffish.net> on Wednesday June 07, 2000 @04:58AM (#1019603) Homepage
    The Sealand folks seem to base their view of sovereignty on a decision in a relatively lowly UK court taken a while ago. While at the moment they may be nominally independent, it seems to me pretty likely that if the matter was taken either to a higher court or to the international community in general, it would really be found to be part of the UK and not a sovereign state at all -- and as it's an artificial structure, the Royal Navy could presumably claim ownership, as they put it there in the first place.
    Given this, and the fact that from what I've read, Havenco only has one connection to the outside world running directly to the UK, whereas a really useful data haven would, to my mind, need several connections to several different countries to be really viable or immune from legislative interference -- is this really intended to be a viable idea, or just a publicity stunt?
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 07, 2000 @05:18AM (#1019608)
    And how are those plans for world domination going?

    Are you going to have Jill St. John stop by for a photo op? Or maybe Plenty O'Toole?
  • Are you guys going to pay any tax? The true test of whether Sealand is independant is what happens when the tax dept starts losing revenue.
  • by inflexion ( 3981 ) on Wednesday June 07, 2000 @05:20AM (#1019611) Homepage Journal
    This is all covered on their website.
  • by Pilchie ( 869 ) on Wednesday June 07, 2000 @05:21AM (#1019627) Homepage
    Directly From their site [havenco.com].

    Hardware - VA Linux Boxes.
    OS - Debian, RedHat, OpenBSD, or FreeBSD 4.0
    Access - Doesn't say, but I am assuming ssh, ssl, etc, since it says open secure protocols.

    Why don't people read the available info, before wasting questions asking stuff that is easy to find out, and doesn't require their CTO?

    Oh well people are just lazy I guess.


    >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  • by (void*) ( 113680 ) on Wednesday June 07, 2000 @05:23AM (#1019630)
    My question is this: were you inspired by Cryptonomicon, or did Cryptonomicon scoop you? If the former, then this is not the first time SF inspired real world events, a self-fulfiling prophecy. If the latter, then this must be one of the quickest SF predicted prophecies. How does it feel to be in this position? I gather you are already sold on the necessity and market for a data haven. How seriously do you take Stephenson's warnings of governmental or corporate harassment?
  • At one point it was mentioned that HavenCo would have several locations where it would attempt to store data. Where else do you plan on building havens? Will these havens be redundent? (Will data at Location A be duplicated on servers at Location B?) Presumably, this would allow you to shuffle content around to sites where it is legal.

    So how do you plan on making sure that content going into your datahaven is from valid sources, and then do you expect to do a review of all data and THEN send it to an appropriate site? Or are users responsible for knowing the laws of the country where the data is to be sent to? Similarly, are users restricted to one site, or can they request multiple HavenCo locations?


  • First, Read this:
    http://www.smh.com.au/ne ws/0004/03/features/features2.html [smh.com.au]

    So, who are you? What is your background?

    Who lives on the island?

    Why would I host on a man-made island I could crash a plane into?


    -Davidu
  • by BoLean ( 41374 ) on Wednesday June 07, 2000 @05:28AM (#1019634) Homepage
    Is there any way that we internet users or the Open Source Community could help with Heavenco? Are there any specific software/software security need that you have? Have you considered working with individulas/groups from other countries to help politically support your operations from their native soil?
  • by Chris Worth ( 18843 ) on Wednesday June 07, 2000 @08:01AM (#1019645) Homepage
    You've chosen to try and execute a great idea. Like all great ideas, it needs demo'ing to possible investors and customers before it can really fly.

    My question: is HavenCo in Sealand simply a flashy demo for a planned 'public beta' somewhere in Asia or the Carribean later on?

    Thank you.
    Chris Worth [chrisworth.com]
  • by laborit ( 90558 ) on Wednesday June 07, 2000 @05:28AM (#1019651) Homepage
    Let's say that you do manage to completely secure your clients' hardware and data. Do you think you can also completely obscure the fact that said client is doing business with HavenCo?

    If so, may we have more details on how?

    If not, do you think that certain governments will make it a crime to simply do business with Sealand? I understand your explanation [havenco.com] that you're not undermining the authority of other governments -- but you are undermining their power to legislate away certain activities to which they object, and I imagine they won't like that. In a world which places little value on a citizen's soveriegnty against hir government, there would be few reprucussions to (say) the U.S. making it illegal to purchase your services, but it would put a big dent in your ability to do business.

    - Michael Cohn
  • I'm interested to know how HavenCo - which will invariably have to connect into a French or, more likely, British ISP - will host material that may be considered illegal in the nation to which the data is travelling to.

    Most terms and conditions for ISPs restrict you from undertaking illegal activities and are recognised as being legal in the country that service is obtained from. If you HavenCo host something that is disallowed in the Terms and Conditions you agreed to then claiming International independance is not an option.

    About the only way I can see of getting round this is to take bandwidth from a much more liberal country who are more likely to accept the money without questions.

  • by leto ( 8058 ) on Wednesday June 07, 2000 @05:53AM (#1019658) Homepage
    1...The website displays a copyright logo. Did
    Sealand sign the Berne Convention, and thus does
    it respect copyright?

    2...Explain who is the real owner, because outsiders are confused with havenco, principality-sealand.net and sealandgov.com

    3...Will I be allowed to store encrypted files there that HavenCo can't possible read, condone nor condemn?

    4...Why does Havenco insist on policies that allow them to remove content based on their disgretion? How many judges does Sealand have to deal with this, or will Joe random Sysadmin play judge?

    5...How will havenco prevent their backbone ISP or that ISP's country from interfering with Sealand/Havenco?
  • Granted - I'm no expert either. I was just thinking that as it's a permanent structure rather than a ship or a portable structure, it might come under property law rather than marine salvage law.. as said, however - dammit, Jim, I'm a sysadmin, not a lawyer. Claiming ownership of property based on abandonment is a very long-term thing, if I remember rightly.
    This article [luf.org] and article 60 of this one [greenpeace.org] (from a vague web search) look interesting.
  • by Poe ( 12710 )
    Obviously, offering to store data for other people can be an ethically sticky business. Are there limits to what you are willing to store?

    A holding company in the US could allow a German company to store, serve and update Nazi material (which is illegal in Germany). Similar situations could allow for storage of child pornography or copyrighted material. How do your rules deal with this?
  • Because, nobody ever expects the ...
  • by The Dodger ( 10689 ) on Wednesday June 07, 2000 @05:57AM (#1019664) Homepage

    What exactly is HavenCo offering? On the one hand, you refer to yourselves as "the world's most secure managed colocation facility" (setting aside for the moment the fact that HavenCo is not a co-location facility) and on the other, your website makes vague references to the fact that Sealand is a sovereign territory.

    Five years ago, when I first heard of Sealand and it's alleged sovereignty, I looked into it as a potential site for a hosting facility. However, I concluded that Sealand's claim to sovereignty wasn't anywhere near strong enough to ensure that it could avoid being subjected to British law (in particular financial law). Given the fact that it exists, in my opinion, because it's owners are viewed as relatively harmless eccentrics by the British authorities, and that it is not recognised as a bona fide principality by any other nation (notwithstanding the visit by a German diplomat), I concluded that if a hosting facility were to be established on Sealand from which, subsequently, actions were carried out or services provided, which sufficiently antagonised a bona fide government, steps would be taken to ensure that such actions or services ceased.

    In short, whilst the idea of Sealand existing as the world's smallest independent nation is a good read in the newspapers, and makes for terrific brochure blurb for a company like HavenCo, I don't believe it to be a truly tenable position.

    Security was something else I looked at. I looked at four methods of connectivity - fibre, microwave, sattelite and packet radio. Any means of connectivity (except, perhaps, for packet radio), exposes a "Seahouse" to the prospect of it's connectivity being shut off at the mainland (whether it be in the UK or the Continent). From a pure security point of view, fibre is obviously the best option. Microwave, sattelite and radio can be snooped both from Earth and space. Sattelite and radio links have their own problems with regard to latency.

    The provision of traditional utilities to a "Seahouse" present further problems - unless a cable could be installed to bring power from the mainland (which, again, leaves the facility open to being shut down by mainland authorities), such a facility must generate it's own power. I dismissed wind and wave as too unreliable, leaving diesel-based generation. This would be expensive and the possiblity of being unable to resupply because of bad weather arises (note that, at one point, Sealand was abandoned because of bad weather). Any interruption to power would result in disruption of environment control (AC, fire suppression systems).

    The actual environment itself was also a concern - I'm not sure how suitable a sea-tower is, as a facility for hosting sensitive computer equipment.

    Finally the security of Sealand itelf was a concern. I conducted an analysis aimed at examining what sort of operation would be required to attack, conquer or destroy Sealand. With the help of an individual with experience of this type of military operation, I determined that carrying out a professional operation designed to invade and seize terporary control of the tower, would cost somewhere in the region of £200,000 (around $320,000). This would involve sourcing weapons and experienced personnel, as well as arranging for a suitable method of accessing the target.

    Conquering the tower would be a different matter, requiring a long-term commitment to both the security and logistics of the tower. Destroying it by UDT methods would not be easy or cheap, although severaly disrupting it's habitability by something like mortar attack would be a lot cheaper.

    In the end, I decided that Sealand sovereignty/legal position, security and suitability as a hosting location were not up to scratch.

    I find it interesting that HavenCo have found otherwise. I note with interest that the HavenCo website indicates that they intend to open hosting facilities in other countries, and I find myself wondering whether the SeaLand thing is merely a publicity stunt/gimmick, purely for the purpose of impressing the press, potential clients and investors.

    Finally, addressing that issue of the definition of co-location. A co-location facility allows companies (typically telcos, ISPs) to locate equipment within the same building, to enable interconnect/exchange of IP traffic. HavenCo says that it will not allow clients to place it's own equipment in the facility. If this is the case, then HavenCo's Sealand facility will be a hosting facility, where clients are constrained to choosing equipment which HavenCo can supply/support.


    The Dodger
    dodger@2600.com [mailto]

  • I was very glad to read that one of the only things that HavenCo will disallow on its servers is child pornography. In my own net experience, I find myself thinking that all is fair except for kiddy porn. But, once a person starts to take any interest in the content, can they really avoid the problem of getting drawn into a very difficult position of having to gradually expand what isn't allowable? For example, suppose some sick-o wanted to host a web site depicting real-life rapes. Surely just because that is not child pornography does not mean that it is morally justifiable to provide that service. Can you really just draw the line at child pornography?
  • by tringstad ( 168599 ) on Wednesday June 07, 2000 @08:36AM (#1019671)
    Everyone seems to be concerned with other governments capturing Sealand or claiming ownership of Sealand. I think it more likely that they would just sever connections to prove their points, and that has already been addressed.

    But what about terrorists? What if some terrorist organization sees Sealand as a get rich quick scheme, and wants to capture and hold hostage the sensitive data of some of the worlds largest companies? Threats to divulge internal secrets, data loss, exposure of personal information of clients and accounting records have all got to sound like a good opportunity to someone out there.

    Surely, government militaries cannot be expected to defend what is clearly a corporate undertaking (though I suspect some governments would think it was their job), so what kind of defense is Sealand, or HavenCo in particular going to have in place if any?

    -Tommy
  • Could you describe what neat technological feats you are planning to maintain robust connectivity, and whether you will get creative in the future with your routing?

    Assuming you start with a single microwave connection to the coast, it makes routing easy, but leaves you open to any number of problems others have already addressed.

    Later you may have some expensive backup satellite connections and you might lay down an undersea fibre link to both the british and continental coasts (you could resell the excess bandwidth with no problem, could be nicely profitable).

    Do you envisage pushing the technological envelope to keep your connectivity going when you have multiple connections? Some tricks along the lines of asymetric routing tables, discontiguous EBGP AS path switching, or encrypted vpn tunnels to sympathetic ISPs in a shell game of anonymizing hops like zero knowledge? How closely are you working with your upstream providers to head off problems?

    Would you consider reselling vpn endpoints so people could tunnel traffic out of oppressive countries without the local authorities sniffing the traffic for content?

    the AC
    [who should lose karma for excessive use of buzzwords]
  • I noticed on the Sealand website references to Prince Roy's ill health. With Michael of Sealand on your board of directors, how will the political and business arrangements be handled? In other words, what is the relationship between the Government of Sealand and Havenco? And what will that relationship be should Michael of Sealand ascend to the Throne.

  • I haven't seen this question yet, so now I ask. In order to do the proper due dililgence on this matter, I would like to know what you will do when you get shut down? I don't think it likely at all that the UK will not take a serious look at what you are doing and disagree with it. They are not going to allow you to operate within their territorial claim and not be subject to their laws. Period.

    I've read that you have plans for other locations, but the information was very vague (as is this question ;). What do you plan to do when, either the UK invades, the US invades (highly likely from where I sit, there are entirely too many people in this country that think that my business is their business), or some non-governmental organization invades? Why wouldn't some unscrupulous individual bent on corporate espionage and blackmail just hire some mercenaries and come steal your servers?

    I love the idea, but this is just ridiculous. Unless you've got unlimited capital coming out of your ears, this is not going to happen. Even if the governments leave the physical location alone, they are bound to shut off your land lines. Satellite bandwidth is beyond prohibitively expensive right now and will remain so for many years. Do you plan to launch your own satellite and man your own ground station in some secret location in order to maintain connenctivity? Even that wouldn't be enough. Governments would find that and shut it down too...

  • "whose leaders were posing as officials of Sealand"

    (emphasis mine)

    First, are these people "officially" affiliated with Sealand?

    Obviously not. If they were, they wouldn't have to pose as officials. They most likely bought false papers from the German businessman who once invaded sealand and kidnapped the Prince's son. (he, the businessman, is still selling false Sealand documents, including passports)

    Secondly, if they are...

    They aren't.

    Third, is this Sealand's idea of Venture Capital (ala' Contragate)?

    I really don't know. The HavenCo people are pretty well-respected in their fields, though. I'd hope not.

  • They're 6 miles from the UK mainland and UK territorial waters extend 12 miles. The only commando raids they are likely to face are from British forces - no one else could do anything.
  • One of the longest running free-speech issues on the Net has been between the Church of Scientology [scientology.com] and the numerous CoS debunking sites such as Xenu.net [xenu.net]. The CoS has vigorously pursued anyone who publishes their secret processes on the internet - they are ruthless [bible.ca], fearless [lisamcpherson.org], and most importantly to anyone meaning to host something offshore, they have a NAVY [xenu.net] (and Tom Cruise [rickross.com] to boot!) If you are truly sovereign, then along with the rights of a sovereign nation come the responsiblities - such as defending yourself from intruders. One of the first groups to seek refuge on your haven will be the Scientology resistance, and you will soon be pitted against Ron's Navy.

    Which brings me to my question: Do you have any plans on implementing true physical countermeasures, such as phased-array radar, anti-aircraft weaponry, and hardened gun emplacements?
  • Hey, rdl. Long time no zee. While I disagree with Rev's assumption above about not building a national defense, I do have some questions related to statecraft and HavenCo.
    1. I noted in the Sealand website:
      HavenCo will now take over operations of the government of Sealand and operate the first datacenter for its secure colocation services from the Sealand sovereign fortress.
      First, congratulations! I suppose this would make you Minister of Technology or somesuch. However, given the dim view that many countries will take of this merger, do you anticipate this will place on roadblock on diplomatic efforts by HavenCo/Sealand (H/S)?
    2. Will H/S seek to enter NATO?
    3. I'm assuming that H/S's physical security threat model includes small merc forces (everyone always trains for the last war). Placing that at one extreme and, say, a cruise missile strike from your favorite Western power at the other extreme, about where (in rough terms) are you planning?
    4. Sealand seems to have an antagonistic history with the world, as when, in 1990, a ship was fired upon by Sealand (I'll assume there is more history than listed on the website). Given the lack of recognition Sealand already has (a ruling by an internal state court of the United Kingdom does not, in law, have any binding upon the international community), how is H/S planning on fighting the image of H/S as a pirate's den, hosting illegal services in a cutthroat backwater?
    5. On the Rules of Use, I noticed this worrisome line:
      This document may change from time to time. Changes go into effect and are applied to all customers from the time that they are posted to the above URL.
      While this is a fine statement of principle, given the lack of recourse a business will have (after all, Havenco is the government), what effect do you anticipate this will have on your marketing staff?
    Good luck,
    cordelia


    Information wants to be free


  • I think their service is an Internet analog to the many services that provide ways of handling contraband goods.

    For instance, let us say you live in a restrictive country, "A," but you are currently visiting country, "B." You find something you would like to buy country B, but cannot legally own it when you are in country A: but you can ship it to a service in country "C!"

    Datahaven may be like country C in that you can store your contraband there and access it through someplace in country B without breaking any laws in country A.

    But of course, this is all speculation!

    -AP
  • I wasn't attacking the words, and yes it is a good question. But a great deal of the hoopla surrounding the protection and privacy of data is entwined within the lack and/or difference of laws.

    Now weary traveller, rest your head. For just like me, you're utterly dead.
  • by Crazy Man on Fire ( 153457 ) on Wednesday June 07, 2000 @04:58AM (#1019696) Homepage
    clearly, you folks are in a highly secure location, and can protect your data and hardware from unwanted access. however, what measures do you have in place to protect yourselves from hostile (physical) invasion? considering your unstable relationship with the british government and how the mpaa convinced the sweedish government to raid a kid's house for the decss thing, what is to stop some sort of military/police infiltration of your facility if somebody decides that you are hosting something they don't like?
  • by revscat ( 35618 ) on Wednesday June 07, 2000 @05:00AM (#1019698) Journal

    1) There is a not-all-that-slim chance that if activities began to occur on your data haven that the Western powers disagreed with, they would find a way to excuse an invasion and confiscate your equipment. The obvious wrong answer to this would be to build your own defense. Is such an invasion even a conern for you? Have you given any thought to signing treaties or other such matters of statecraft, or do you think the international community doesn't take you seriously enough to consider such offers?

    2) Second, with the coming of sites such as Freenet, do you feel that a data haven such as you have envisioned is still necessary?

    - Rev.
  • by felix ( 7014 ) on Wednesday June 07, 2000 @05:00AM (#1019700) Homepage Journal
    I'm curious to know what platform or platforms you will be running your service off of? My guess would be something like openBSD and solaris w/ some microsoft scattered about for customer compatibility, but what do I know?

    Also how will clients access their files and how will those files be stored? Will you be using existing technology now like ssh/https type for the transfer or will you be writing a secure client?

    Thanks.

  • Hmm. Despite an earlier ruling that Sealand lay outside of .uk's territorial waters back in the 3-mile days, the Home Office have announced to the press [guardianunlimited.co.uk] that Sealand DOES fall under their juristiction for purposes of the RIP bill. Do you have any plans to get official recognition by the European parliment or UK courts of Sealand's status before you go ahead?
    --
  • Where's "your line"? I.e. what will you store, and what won't you store? Since you have your own principality, it's not necessarily obvious that certain things that couldn't be stored in the US wouldn't be stored in your data haven.

    Also, what are you doing to protect customers? Do you see your data haven as becoming the "Swiss Bank" equivalent for data?

    And finally, what kind of hardware/software do you guys have supporting your operation?

  • Hmm. I am assuming you expect to get the majority of your business from companies whose host countries have intercept or key escrow provisions in place. What measures do you expect to take to secure the data on the platform and while in transit (both physically and cryptographically)? If a CEO of a customer comes to you and says he needs to obtain a key to his data in your safekeeping, but can't say why, what will your response be?
    --
  • by Local Loop ( 55555 ) on Wednesday June 07, 2000 @08:58AM (#1019704)

    I was wondering if you have multiple internet backbone connections. I read something about a microwave link to the mainland, but no details.

    Do you have multiple microwave links?

    Do you have connections to multiple countries, so the UK can't just shut down your connection?

    What is your primary source of electrical power, and how long can you operate with backup power when that fails?

    Best Regards,

    Local Loop

  • by Psiren ( 6145 ) on Wednesday June 07, 2000 @05:02AM (#1019705)
    Ah, but illegal to whom? Thats the whole problem, whats illegal in one place isn't necessarily so in another.

    Now weary traveller, rest your head. For just like me, you're utterly dead.
  • Bruce Sterling's Island's in the Net (1988) also is an early reference to the same concept. The "Islands" the title refers to are, like HavenCo, island nations (real ones this time- whole countries) who "go pirate" and become havens. It goes into much more detail than Gibson, and includes a lot of discussion of the possibility of terrorist attack, tension with the outside world, and all that. Very interesting read.
    ~luge

    P.S. HavenCo isn't anything compared to what Fidel Castro could in CUBAdo if he wanted to. Think about it- a country with pretty normal trade relations with 95% of the world that hates the US and would love nothing more than to host DeCSS and the like and flick us yet another finger. And his successors (no matter what happens, democracy or otherwise) are pretty guaranteed to hate the US and have good fiber to, say, Mexico, no matter what.
  • Assuming that your data haven is successful [that is, that there _is_ a long term future for the
    concept], I suspect that a multitude of global organizations will attempt to "muscle in" on your market. How will you compete with, for instance, IBM or GEISCO, which can not only buy much larger islands, but can afford multiple backup locations as well?

  • Lots of people are asking questions about physical security, and how you're going to repel missiles and commandos, but I've got the opposite question: why do you need physical security and a physical location at all? Would not the best way to protect your customers' data be to wrap it in hard crypto and distribute it far and wide across the whole of the net, ensuring that there is not a single point of failure or a single physical installation that can be isolated?

    As we've seen again and again recently, the best protection against censorship and other legal attacks is massive redundancy and decentralization.

  • by panda ( 10044 ) on Wednesday June 07, 2000 @05:42AM (#1019724) Homepage Journal

    According to the Sealand Government web site [sealandgov.com], Havenco "will now take over operations of the government of Sealand." As I understand the other text on the same page, it is generally believed that the government of the UK would not interfere in any acts of piracy, terrorism, or assault on your "territory." Since you are now within the limits of the territorial waters claimed by the UK, you probably won't have to worry about a full-out assault from a sovereign nation, but another attack like that of 1978 could happen again. Of course, there is nothing but a few court rulings to protect you from Her Majesty's Armed Forces.

    Given the precarious nature of the "sovereignty" of Sealand, will you be seeking international recognition and treaties to guarantee your physical security from such attacks? Will you be joining any of the international protocols for cooperation in law enforcement or other areas? I would think that joining these would go a long way to cementing your viability.

  • by broody ( 171983 ) on Wednesday June 07, 2000 @05:43AM (#1019725)

    After reading your TOS [havenco.com] I have become rather curious in regards to the following cluase:

    Unacceptable publications include, but are not limited to:

    1. Material that is ruled unlawful in the jurisdiction of the originating server (Such as child pornography, in the case of our flagship Sealand datacenter)

    In the case of the Sealand datacenter, what are some of the limitations?

    Please note that in the following examples I am not equating one example with any other or implying that any of the following should be censored; rather they are examples of what I would consider sticky wickets when running a "data haven" and wonder how such things will be handled.

    Imagine the following:

    I am a rabid anti-choice activist in the United States. I wish to post a site with a hit list of doctors [about.com] performing abortions in the United States. After each "accident" I wish to mark them with a big red X. I publish detailed information on how to find each of these doctors.

    Is this site permitted?

    I am a hacker who wants to play DVDs [helo.org] on my Linux box and I want to use free software. I want to place source code [metastudios.com] on my website. The United States says this violates some stupid law [gpo.gov] and some annoying people object [slashdot.org].

    Is this site permitted?

    I am a devote Iron Chef fan and Fuji TV [fujitv.co.jp] has just sent me a cease and desist order [io.com]. I wish to move my materials to Sealand.

    Is this site permitted?

    I am a regular guy in the UK creating a website about my daily life. Some people don't like the way I talk about them and my site is pulled [bbc.co.uk].

    Is this site permitted?

    Will you allow sites advocating the overthrow of rival goverments, challenged uses of intellectual property, bomb making instructions, and other information that will get other nation-states panties in a twist?

  • Read the NYT article:

    "They are hoping that the installation, connected to the Internet by high-speed microwave and satellite links, will become a refuge from governments increasingly trying to tame and regulate the Internet."

    They have other links to the internet that are even safer from legislative blocking.

    My question is, how are you raising capital for such a "different" idea.
  • 1. What sort of data needs extraterritorial protection?

    2. Who guarantees your physical security. For example, if you host data considered by some government to be a threat to them, who will defend you against commando raids, air strikes, and the like?
  • by gregor_b_dramkin ( 137110 ) on Wednesday June 07, 2000 @05:06AM (#1019746) Homepage
    What will you do when pressure is exerted on your landlubber ISP to shutdown your connection? Move to another ISP? What happens when no one else will give you bandwidth? A renegade server farm doesn't do any good if no router will accept its traffic.

    Don't say it can't/won't happen. Unfortunately, it can and probably will.

  • by MenTaLguY ( 5483 ) on Wednesday June 07, 2000 @05:06AM (#1019749) Homepage
    How, generally speaking, are you handling physical security at Sealand? Private guards and/or hired mercenaries, evil high-tech lazer defense systems, rabid dogs with bees in their mouths so that when they bark they shoot bees at you, what?

    I mean, Sealand's already been taken by military force once, and back then it didn't even have anything more interesting on it than a self-proclaimed prince, his wife, and their heir apparent.

    Now, you've got some very very valuable data to protect, and while the equipment may theoretically be tamper-proofed, I would hope that that is not your _only_ assurance of security.

    I'm not talking about full-blown military incursions, either ... I'm sure the UK will look after you in that regard. Specifically, are you prepared for a businessman bringing in a private mercenary force? It's happened before, after all.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 07, 2000 @05:07AM (#1019752)
    It seems as though part of the service you provide is the ability to maintain Internet services unfettered by normal government restrictions (ala, DMCA, etc.).

    What company is providing *you* with networking on Sealand? Is it possible that they could be liable under the laws in their own country for traffic coming out of Sealand? It's possible that this could negate any benefit to setting up a Sealand server.

  • Another thing: I notice that most of your employees (the Officers listed on your Web page, at any rate) [havenco.com] have a background in electronic currency and/or electronic gambling. This would seem to temper, if not belie, the idealistic image you are trying to project. Are you planning to do lots of banking and gambling on Havenco? If so, do you consider such activity to be inconsistent with your idealistic aims, or is it just a way to finance them, or do you see it as working just fine with your ideals, without any conflict?

    I'm not saying that gambling and money-laundering are immoral, but they aren't on the pure altruistic level of free speech, either. Then again, Havenco makes no bones about being a for-profit company... look at those rates [havenco.com]!

    Vovida, OS VoIP
    Beer recipe: free! #Source
    Cold pints: $2 #Product

  • by DigiEbola ( 196724 ) <digiebola@legions.org> on Wednesday June 07, 2000 @05:09AM (#1019754) Homepage
    Several come to mind... First, is Havenco hiring? It would be cool to work in a datahaven. Second of all what would HavenCo do if all of their outside access was cut off, either by hostile intent or by bureaucratic nonsense? Pretty neat, if you can keep other people from trying to regulate you or put you out of business.
  • how do you justify the fact that people are going to hold illegal data in your facility in the name of free speech?
    Analogy: "How do you justify allowing black people to vote, in the name of equal rights?"

    The question doesn't make sense. Free speech is free speech. Illegal speech is not free speech. For supporters of free speech, there is no such thing as "illegal data".

    Having said that, the other posters here are correct... HavenCo isn't taking such a bold stance. They won't allow "illegal data." Read the FAQ... er, actually, the Acceptable Use Policy [havenco.com].
  • All is fine, until one day, somebody will, from one of the servers hosted in your bunker, post something that will run afoul of the notoriously harsh british official secret act.

    Then, buoyed by the apparent immunity, somebody else will do it. Then another bloke will do the same.

    This will go on until her majesty's government is sufficiently annoyed and the Royal Navy is dispatched to forcibly reclaim british sovereignty over your bunker.

    What will you do?

    --
    Here's my mirror [respublica.fr]

  • by xyzzy ( 10685 ) on Wednesday June 07, 2000 @06:27AM (#1019770) Homepage
    Ooo! The more interesting question to ask is:

    Can I get (either for free, or since this is a business, for pay) an email address at havenco.com, or some other domain hosted at Sealand?

    In reality, the most important data any person or organization has is their email! It can be read, spied on, subpoenaed, etc. I'd pay MONEY for this service.

    Will Sealand be getting a top-level country code? If so, you could also sell domains, but let me say that I think the hottest idea is selling web-based email accounts.

    Dibs on "billg@havenco.com" :-)
  • You claim to be a few millseconds by optical fiber from London. I recall some talk about satellite links.

    If your link to London falls, can you still give good connectivity (latency and bandwidth)?
    __
  • Over the Chunnel would be an even better idea -- you could build a station.
    -russ
    p.s. or did you think I was serious?
  • Yes, and part of Britain lies within Sealand territorial waters. I think the usual understanding is to split the difference.
    -russ
  • by krog ( 25663 ) on Wednesday June 07, 2000 @05:09AM (#1019776) Homepage
    hiya, rdl...

    I'm sure you know the extent of what you're getting into. This data haven represents an international "threat" to security/intelligence, a threat that sooner or later I expect a country's intelligence agency will choose to deal with.

    My question is: how far are you willing to go with this data haven? It seems to mean much more to you than just a cool networking phenomenon; are you willing to fight and even die for these ideals?

    -peeto

  • If you are requested to disclose the contents of a server under RIP, will you claim to be in the UK, or outside it ? How strongly will you assert this ?

  • by mikpos ( 2397 ) on Wednesday June 07, 2000 @05:11AM (#1019780) Homepage
    You say in the FAQ that you won't store things which are illegal in the client's country. It seems to me like one of the most important attributes of a data haven would be its ability to let people escape oppresive governments. If they can't do this, then what are they gaining by going to you with their data?
  • Setting up a company on a remote island, even one that doesn't require a lot of on-site workers, was undoubtably difficult.

    What were the major challenges of setting up on the island? How many people, and what sort of equipment did it take? Is there more left to do?

    What are some of your day-to-day facilities like (food, shelter, perhaps even recreation)?

    What is your daily cash burn rate? Are there ways to cut it?

    Are you making a profit now? If not, when do you plan to be able to?

    Do you have a plan in case of a hostile take-over?

    Where can I send my resume? :)

    Interesting concept...I wish you luck!

    -AP

"Experience has proved that some people indeed know everything." -- Russell Baker

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