Canadian "Big Brother" Database Scrapped 83
Pig Hogger writes: "Jane Stewart, the minister responsible for Human
resources development Canada has announced today that the
"longitudinal labour force file databank" will be dismantled.
You can read the official
ministry press release, or the CBC
story.
Amusingly, the minister said that they 'cannot take chances
in the age of Mafiaboy '... "
Re:Have no illusions (Score:1)
Have you ever read the Charter of Rights and Freedoms which is part the Canadian constitution? We DO have the right to free speech.
I quote:
Fundamental Freedoms
Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:
(a) freedom of conscience and religion
(b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other means of communication.
(c) freedom of peaceful assembly; and
(d) freedom of association.
It can't be any clearer than that.
Where is everybody (Score:1)
The Database (Score:1)
Re:Refugee Status from Canada? (Score:1)
Would I like to see more pride in Canada? Of course. Would I like to live in the U.S. version 2.0? Not likely.
Oh, I gotcha now... (Score:1)
However, I resent you calling Ontario the "Most powerful province in Canada". I assume you are basing that primarily on the fact that you have the largest population ant that Ottowa is the seat of government. I would like to point out that Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba bring in more money through farming, BC and all the Atlantic provinces bring in more money through fishing, Alberta (specifically Calgary, AKA Silicon Valley North) brings in tons of capital through high tech ventures, and Ontario and Quebec hang out in the middle and suck it all up.
Now that I'm done flaming you (sorry, I'm pissed off at the east because I'm an Albertan), feel free to move out here if things don't get better, we're back to increasing spending on health care and welfare now that we've eliminated our provincial debt and our provincial deficit. Ralph's not such a bad guy once you get to know him, he just does what needs to be done.
Other Cdn Databases (Score:1)
Besides what the government keeps, there are two private companies (that I have worked with in the past) that I know that collect credit and other information on Canadian citizens. Equifax (also an American company!) and Trans Union. Both are required by law to provide free to Canadian citizens their credit history.
You do have [paranoid alert] to provide 2 pieces of photocopied information [/paranoid alert] and other info. Here are the phone and address of these agencies.
And
You'd be surprised what they have. Give them a try. It is *your* credit history.
Have a nice day,
-rvr
Whats the big deal? (Score:1)
My point is, there not going out of there way to collect more information then they already collect, and its pretry much only one line of code to make a 'mega database'.
Re:Oh, I gotcha now... (Score:1)
Check your facts.I think that title has been given to Ottawa.
Perhaps J Stewart is trying to recoup her losses? (Score:2)
http://www.reach.net/%7Egraphics/govwa1
Re:moron.. (Score:1)
Well, the .sig line sure is great for tormenting imbeciles.
Fait accompli.
Re:Not really addressing it - Canadian Politics (Score:2)
To get back on topic... the sort of thinking, "protecting our culture," is what holds every nation back but the United States. They protect their culture with the USS Nimitz and company.
A database on every citizen in every nation is going to happen, if it hasn't already. What do you think social security numbers are? If we excuse our governments nutsy actions with "it is protecting our culture" they will get away with too much.
Big brother needs to be watched too.
Re:moron.. (Score:1)
No, however it does make cleaning a little easier.
And it makes silk boxer shorts more fun.
(Speaking from experience, I was cut as an adult, and I feel no shame in saying that I love being circumcised.)
Great site here [circlist.org].
Re:Not really addressing it - Canadian Politics (Score:1)
This is not true. Look at the history...
Religion is one of the obvious example on making laws to protect some culture (a many other things like power). One can argue that some religion are declining, but other, with stronger restriction, are florishing.
When the US govt restricts it's citizen and businesses from doing business with Cuba, it does this to prevent the communist ideology of Cuba to infect it's culture.
Statisticaly, the Quebec culture is a lot more alive today then it was not so long ago. The french/english quotas on french radio stations made record company invest more in local artist than before thoes quotas where in place.
Other canadians are obviously not looking at what the CRTC does when they criticts the french language politicies of Quebec. The CRTC limits, in the same way, the ratio of canadian/alien content on any broadcast medium in the country. How is that different and more acceptable than Quebec policies?
i saw mafiaboy on irc (Score:1)
Re:Huh? RCMP? (Score:1)
The information is needed! (Score:3)
O.k. Everyone seems to miss the fact that every single piece of information that the government gathered was important to its operation. You can't tax people unless you know where they live, how much they make, and where they worked. You can't pay them welfare/unemployment insurance unless you know what they earned last year, and how much they were paid in benefits, etc...
The only problem was the linking of the two. The intent was to detect things like double dipping, where someone is both working and getting benefits, or other such abuses.
However, as with any large database, there are many ways that it can be abused. They already have problems with government staff joyriding through the data. Every government has that problem, the IRS even tracks it and publishes stats on it.
And before everyone starts complaining about it maintaining a history, rather than simply current totals, remember that they have to maintain records for seven years for audit purposes.
I'm not saying that the large data-wharehouse kind of information is a good thing. It can, however, have several beneficial uses. It would give the government very good demographic data about the majority of its constituency (middle-class tax payers), which would help in resource planning (faster than a census). However, as with anything, there is an increased level of responsability required when using the information.
Jason PollockRe:Not really addressing it (Score:1)
Wow, we really know a lot about Canada, now don't we? That it strikes you as strange that there wasn't a big protest is pretty much proof that you're American. ;) It was in fact, a government official - the privacy commisioner - that brought it to the attention of the media and the citizens. And apparently she only did this after badgering the HRDC chief for three months to change things. Of course, the HRDC jumped right to the job once the media was informed - it's only been about a week since this whole thing came out, and that's breakneck speed for any beuracracy anywhere to do anything for anyone.
And dismantling the database is probably just one of the things she's talking about. The HRDC really does see the need for protecting the privacy of the populace, and this is nothing new. They have been paranoid about giving information away to anyone for years now, (for as long as I've been part of the work force, that's for sure) to the extent that they don't even trust other government agencies, like our Taxation agency, or our Social Welfare agency, or the Worker's Compensation Board, and the list goes on. For the HRDC to share any information with any of them, they need your permission in writing before they give them the information they need.
---
Huh? (Score:1)
What broadcast monopoly are you talking about? Obviously it isn't CBC (which is still a crown corporation, and which definitely isn't a monopoly unless you live in the middle of nowhere) or the CRTC (regulates spectrum usage and ostensibly my culture, but isn't a company). What does that leave?
Re:Huh? (Score:1)
Well, without going back to my post, I'm sure the monopoly to which I was referring was that of the recently created Air Canada situation. (Why not let foreign carriers provide competition? Canadian Airlines would have gone under anyway.)
But I resent that my tax money goes to fund the CBC. Having worked for them on a freelance basis, I can tell you first hand that their producers speak in a currency foreign to every other organization that I've seen. The currency? Leather sofas. As in, "it cost me 30 leather sofas to make that episode of Anne of Green Gables." Near as I can tell, a "leather sofa" is a currency unit representing approximately $6,000CDN dollars.
No wonder the CBC runs a constant federal funding drain. Why? CTV is private, profitable, and produces *more* Canadian content.
As for Canadian Content, the CRTC should be disbanded. Their broadcast regulatory division is made up mostly of "Content Police", as broadcasters refer to them. Why not let the free market decide how many Tragically Hip songs Q107 should play in a day? Since 40% of all programming on Canadian radio/TV stations *has* to be Canadian, there's a serious excess of crap that shouldn't be played on even the worst college radio station.
That's nothing! (Score:1)
... that aside, and given the colour of comments I read so far, can you think of something that your goverment can say to convince you that the db is going to be deleted? I mean, it's just bits.
Yeah right... (Score:1)
C'mon, now, anyone believe this?
Citizens of such countries are property of the state, ask Fidel. There is no way that ANY government would dump such a mine of information, no matter what the outcry.
Get real.
Refugee Status from Canada? (Score:1)
Arguably offtopic, but I think that the following is highly pertinent to the discussion of the sort of government that collects data like this.
Between this database, high taxes, crumbling infrastructure and continued investment of my tax dollars into the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, does anyone here with any legal or immigrations experience think that I might have enough of a case to claim refugee status to the United States?
Tamil warfare occurs in two places in the world: Sri Lanka and my neighborhood. Thanks, Pierre Trudeau, for opening the borders to all of the world's effluence, hatreds and terrorists.
Not to mention that the Canadian Government specifically changed federal laws to allow a former crown corporation (but now a private company, evidently with big friends in government) a monopoly status over Canada's airways.
Makes me sick.
The provinces (Score:2)
The thing is, the federal government has a privacy commissioner (Bruce Phillips is the guy who opened up the whole ball of wax) and operates under fairly strict restrictions vis a vis data collection and use.
The provinces do not have the same restrictions, and most of them don't have their own privacy commissioner. Bruce Phillips' jurisdiction only covers the federal government, he cannot investigate privacy concerns about provincial governments or private corporations. The provinces, could quite legally collect much more detailed databases and use them for whatever they want. The federal government cannot, wihtout breaking laws anyway.
Dana
Re:Not really addressing it - Canadian Politics (Score:1)
Why is everyone so shocked? (Score:2)
Of course, this is made stranger by the fact that (until now) they apparently did talk to each other, they just didn't want us to know it... or something...
-Erf C.
Re:Not really addressing it - Canadian Politics (Score:3)
The federal has a lot more power than the provincial government. They also have a lot more money and they control how they transfer it to each province. The federal is also the one trying to remove power to the provinces by interfering in theire field of power (like education or healthcare).
I cannot see how requiring french display may be compared to nazi regime. They don't prevent anybody from displaying in any other language, they just require that they also display in french and that the french part is predominant. While I don't agree with many of the action taken by the "language police" (like requiring some non-commercial web site to have a french version), I think that this law is important to preserve the french language in that part of the world. When your population is only 6-7 millions in a market of >275 millions, big corporation don't care about you and your preference, they just impose their stuff on you.
Also the US are a lot more protectionist about a lot of other stuff than the Quebec Government.
The privacy laws in the province of Quebec are ones of the strongest in the world. They prevent the government agencies to exchange your personnal info to any one (even to other governement agencies) without your explicit agreement for every transaction. The province of Quebec is the only place in North America that put special restriction on business for exchanging your personnal info. One of those restriction is that they MUST have your agreement to exchange your personnal data. They cannot have just an opt-out box.
Re:Huh? RCMP? (Score:1)
Re:Yeah, but look at Ontario. (Score:1)
Hmm... Okay. The NDP government is responsible for the deplorable, congested condition of our roads: they took the huge gas taxes we pay out of highway maintenance because cars aren't environmentally friendly. (And I'm not riding on transit while there are homeless people and other derelicts riding beside me and giving me scabies.) Further, the NDP's policies generally support labor unions; between the huge corporate tax load in Canada and labor rates cranked up by unions, Canada will fall from being a second-world country to a third-world country. On a local level, you can thank the unions for the fact that Toronto property taxes help to pay the $21/hr that the municipal parking attendants make. I can't figure out why they don't get minimum wage. They're parking attendants, for God's sake. One step above convenience store clerks.
I was generally in support of Dalton McGinty, but after the lies about where the money for his platform was going to come from, I decided to vote again for the devil I know.
I don't like any of the choices that I'm ever given in any federal or provincial election. The choices always suck.
In five years if there's no positive change, I'm probably going to have to move.I disagree with just about everything else you've said in your post. But the above, I agree with. I'd hope for a shorter time frame, myself.
Re:Huh? RCMP? (Score:1)
Re:Not really addressing it - Canadian Politics (Score:2)
Our laws are intended not respect the establishment of religion down here. We concluded over 200 years ago that to do so is a Bad Thing.
When the US govt restricts it's citizen and businesses from doing business with Cuba, it does this to prevent the communist ideology of Cuba to infect it's culture.
No, it does this to weaken the economy of a military dictatorship that sits 90 miles off our shores. We have had plenty of Cuban culture blended with our own for quite some time, and we like it.
That's the difference between the US and Quebec... we believe that the "melting pot" of cultures strenthens us, you fear the influence of non-french culture.
To be fair, we have polititians down here that wish to keep our culture "pure" of alien influence (like Pat Buccannan, the Reform Party candidate for President), but the vast majority of us reject such thinking as Xenophobic, over-protectionist, and perhaps even racist.
Re:Refugee Status from Canada? (Score:2)
Those of you that would rather live in the US will find that immigrating here is remarkably easy, especially if you are a geek with lots of usefull skills. If nothing else, you could probably come in as a "resident alien" for a few years on a work visa, and get the citizenship as time goes on.
If you are from northern Canada, Alaska might be the ideal state for you... oil money pays for almost everything, so compared to Canadian taxes it's practically a free ride!
Re:Yeah, but look at Ontario. (Score:1)
The perception that hard earned tax money deducted from your pay check is being mis-spent on projects and causes which seem unfair and unjust. The problem is that the brain muscle responsible for reacting to things which seem unjust and unfair is very easy to engage. A great deal of the population can be angered and made indignant, or as you say, frustrated, with stories of how 'bleeding heart liberals' are giving money to people who don't work as hard as others do. Those emotions are easy to incite, and easy to direct. If you want votes, then making the people feel angry at a certain demograph, and promising to punish that demograph, seems to nearly always be a sure ticket into office.
I tend to believe that any party which engages these kinds of emotions in the public in order to obtain power, is irresponsible at the very least, and manipulative at worst. I don't like to be manipulated.
And the simple fact of the matter is that anybody can balance a budget. It's just math. Even a socialist knows that 'things need to be paid for,' and that, 'money doesn't grow on trees.'
Harris announced with great fanfare that his Tory party had balanced the Ontario budget for the first time in 30 years. He didn't mention that more than 20 of those 'unbalanced' years had been under Tory leadership. (And during the 80's too, when money was all over the place and the government had massive revenues.) When the NDP got into power, (during a recession and inheriting this massive debt), Bob Rae told us frankly that his party had a plan which would eliminate the deficit in seven years, although they explained that they would have to make cuts to both education and health care, among other things, in order to do it. While this was unwelcome news, it was at least honest, and I respect that. As we know, however, they didn't get into power for a second term. Though, eight years after they first announced their plan, we now have a balanced budget. And how did Tories manage it? Cuts to health care and education.
I can understand your frustration with unfairness. There are many examples which do infuriate. But I've seen cases where the welfare net has rescued people who lost their jobs during the recession. They felt terrible and guilty about taking charity checks from the government during the time it took for them to find new work, (which they did). --And these are people with families and white collar jobs I'm talking about. Not the parking lot attendants which have you feeling indignantion. --I recognize that while there are welfare leaches, there are also case workers and regulations which work to minimize that problem.
I realize that a system based on Social Darwinism which champions survival of the fittest and penalizes failure with starvation and destitution *can* work, but it seems to me that the result is a harsh and mean spirited society where people spend a great deal of time scared & angry or feeling unjustly superior because they started the game, often with rich parents. This kind of system is much more likely to devolve into an upper and lower class which openly hate one another. I don't think it has to be this way; we're supposed to be civilized. Who the heck wants a cruddy, angry system like that?
And as for the 'smelly people' on the subway which you would rather avoid. . .
While I agree that subways can be crowded during rush hours, and that driving does provide a certain degree of luxury in terms of personal space, (if you don't mind the exhaust and equally crowded through fares during rush hour which I find, frankly more stressful, having commuted in both manners.). . , but I do think that operating a car is amazingly selfish. Cars are extremely destructive and dirty; Every litre of gasoline burned creates two kilograms of Carbon Monoxide. (I believe. I'm recalling an old documentary on the subject, and my chemistry isn't entirely reliable. I do remember that it was either two or three to one. Either way, it's dirty as hell. And that's not even counting the black crud which also comes out the pipe!)
I hate after I cycle through Toronto, how I blow black snot out my nose as a result of so many selfish or simply ignorant people who opperate cars.
And it shouldn't be like this.
I take the subway frequently, and it really isn't that bad. And I don't know what isolated and clearly over-hyped incedent you're referring to, but lice and scabies just don't show their faces when I travel. --I think, rather, your attitude speaks of a general despising of others, and I would suggest that a step back and honest self review might show you what you need to look at in order to become a happier individual who doesn't feel the need to vote with such indignation and frustration. (--Remember, the bomb threat campaign which closed polling stations in liberal ridings was organized by conservatives. Do you really want people with a bomb-threat mentality in government? --And yes, the only people who had access to the thousand or so polling station volunteers were the party members. --And a thousand threatening phone calls in a single night? That takes organization. Tories play dirty. They manipulate and incite hate. I can't think of a worse group to have in power!)
Re:Huh? RCMP? (Score:1)
Re:Not really addressing it - Canadian Politics (Score:1)
Worst part about it... (Score:1)
I had a bank error mess up my credit rating, so I made a request that Equifax send me a copy of every piece of paper or digitum that had my name on it. After recieving my credit report from Equifax, I still couldn't figure out what was wrong.
When I took this report to my bank manager, she goes "wow, when I request a credit report on someone, I get way more information." So i signed my john henry on some of her paperwork, and in a few minutes, I got my *complete* file from Equifax, which was marked "confidental, for bank manager only".
Scary, eh people?
Re:Oh, I gotcha now... (Score:1)
Exactly (Score:1)
Capt. Ron
Re:Why is everyone so shocked? (Score:1)
Just another stunning display of the ineptitude and/or underhandedness of the Canadian government.
I'm just *so* proud to be a Canadian. Oh yippy, yippy, yay.
Re:Huh? (Score:1)
LOL! What a joke (Score:2)
As if they're really going to get rid of such a useful tool for any modern government! This is just another government reshuffle where nothing really gets lost or removed, just moved into a new position out of the public eye. It's just with data this time, not people.
Every government has a database similar to the LLFF, made up from the vast amounts of personal data which we provide various organisations throughout our lives - police records, tax records, insurance, health etc etc. Of course they're not going to admit this sort of thing, because in this age "privacy" has become a cult whose members demand anonymity above everything else, including national security and prosperity.
No, the fact is that this kind of information is essential for an efficient government. Without it, they cannot make informed decisions about the populace, since they do not know who and what the populace is! Of course, the privacy nuts don't care if we all have to pay higher taxes and fill in ten times as many forms to ensure that the uninteresting details of their lives remain "hidden" from people who couldn't care less about what they do.
And when it comes to national security, a database of the civilian population can come in very handy, to allow people who are engaged in criminal activities to be caught more easily than is the case when records can be hidden across any number of separate organisations. This alone makes the LLFF or its equivalent an essential tool for the modern government, and one that Canada won't want to do without.
Anyone who thinks that Canada is really going to get rid of the LLFF is a fool. Like everything else useful to a government, it'll just be hidden elsewhere.
Is the effort shut down, or just the DB (Score:1)
The government received an unbeleivable amount of negative press over this and It's good to see them listen to the population when the say "we want our privacy". I wish the American government would follow suit.
Even if this effort is shut down in full, there are still hundreds of "Doubleclick" style warehouses performing basically the same functions and housing basically the same data. It may have been simply cheaper to purchase the information the Canadian government wanted rather than build and maintain it's own collection infrastructure. The governments, both Canadian and American will still be getting this sort of information on us one way or another, it's just a matter of how, not who or when. I doubt that the effort was shut down for the reasons stated in the article. That's just a little too easy.
Re:What? (Score:1)
Oh, and this conversation never took place.
No they're not ! (Score:1)
It seems that the Canadian Goverment is only unlinking the tables of the database, moving them to different locations, and calling it "dismantling".
Well, that's one way to put it but they realy are not destroying any data !!
from http://news.excite.com/ne ws/r/000529/14/canada-bigbrother [excite.com]:
Stewart said her staff had now returned information to the federal tax authorities, had eliminated the computer program that linked the various databases and would ensure that all databases remain separate files.
--
Why pay for drugs when you can get Linux for free ?
Not really addressing it (Score:2)
I don't see how dismantling this current project is really addressing future threats. The change of an administration can change this policy fully and this decision will have had no effect whatsoever.
The other thing that strikes me as strange, is that there wasn't really a big protest about this database, it was simply people asking to see their data which caused them to shut it down. Why does the government not want the people to know what the government knows about them? That is the thing that scares me.
so... cyber terrorism works then!? hehe. (Score:1)
Does this mean that cyber terrorism works? That we can control megacorps and governments with ping floods? yay!
PS, I did check, and did not see any reference to mafiaboy in either the article or press release. Oh well
It's not really going away, is it..... (Score:1)
So this was more of a data warehouse than anything else. The information is still being kept and gathered - just like it has always been. I'll place good money on betting that the "new" protocols to handle and disseminate the data mirror closely procedures already in place at the various gov't offices.
Scary... (Score:2)
This completely ignores unauthorized access physically perpetrated (resentful bureaucrats abusing their access to harass cheating SO or pesky neighbour, cleaner script kiddie at the terminals) or the stretching of the confines of legal uses of the information. At the start it will be only used for tracking abuses of ssubsidies and tax evasion, but if you believe that's where it stays, I have this bridge I've been planning to sell.
Stefan.
If you don't know: SO="significant other".
Re:Yeah, but look at Ontario. (Score:1)
The RCMP have nothing to do with the Government of Ontario. They are a federal police force. Ontario has the OPP, which do the same thing as the RCMP, except their only jurisdiction is in rural Ontario.
You are right in saying that Ontario is the most powerful province in Canada. I remember when I was young watching elections on TV. The election was already decided before the polls closed in B.C. Basically, the viewpoint from out west (I'm from Manitoba) is that Ontario is a spoilt province which thinks its the centre of the universe. And the message they get out there from Ontario doesn't help change that attitude either.
P.S., I'm living in Toronto now, so I've seen both sides of the argument.
Just a few teensy questions... (Score:1)
"As an added safeguard, any of it going for research will not have personal identifiers."
Okay, what about the data that has already been used for "research" purposes?
"The database includes information on everyone's address, education, marital status and ethnic origin. It also tracks a person's employment and social assistance history, and their income tax records."
Okay, just for the record: Address: foo@bar.ca; Education: enough to see through this garbage; Marital Status: Non-Breeding Male; Ethnic Origin: um, er, Canadian?; Employment, Social Assistance and Income Tax history: uh-uh, forget it-- there's no way I'll let the government have that information...
Are they really disposing of this information? Hell, no-- this is the Canadian government we're talking about. Jeez, the "opposition" is opposed to it only because they're not the party in power-- if the Tories get in after the next election, I can guarantee that this database will be reactivated, with a minimum of fanfare, and as much obfuscation that taxpayer's money can buy. No-one involved with the project really gives a damn about it getting hacked-- they're just waving ten-dollar words like "encryption" and "longitudinal" to confuse and pacify the proles until the next big government cack-up comes down the pipe (which will probably be in a week or two).
Hehehe ... Tories in power ... hehehe (Score:1)
What will probably happen with the database itself? In about a week or two somebody will get the bright idea of spinning this move badly (think Alliance after they get a leader) and complain loudly. The Canadian public will (hopefully) realize they've been had, and will demand the personal info be removed from the databases entirely.
Then, that done, Ontario will split the conservative vote and let the Liberals in for another five years, and the circle of life will continue.
Re:Refugee Status from Canada? (Score:1)
I really don't care about the politics in their home countries. As a Canadian citizen, it's not my problem. Let them kill each other, if that's what they want to do. Just leave me out of it.
My big problem is that the government lets them in without screening them very well. Then the government gives them settlement bonuses - paid for from my tax money. They take that money and either buy a nicer car than I can afford, or they send it back to finance whatever wars are going on in their homelands.
Finally, these people aren't interested in integrating with Canadian society. They're not Canadians, and don't want to be - but they expect all the benefits and know more about how to claim them than I do. They drive around with "I Love Uganda" or "I Love Sri Lanka" bumperstickers on the back of their cars, and call themselves Ugandans (etc.), not Canadian.
Fundamentally, this proves that multiculturalism cannot work. You cannot have a country made up of millions of people from thousands of distinct societies and expect that they'll all pull together in a war. If Canada went to war against Sri Lanka, we've already got a lovely built-in supply of guerrillas and terrorists who are still loyal to Sri Lanka.
Joe Canada from the Molson beer ads is an idiot. The Melting Pot is the way to go. You only need to live in Toronto for a few years to prove that. Quebec has been on the verge of separating for 30 years. Imagine if a state tried to split from the Union today? Not gonna happen - hell, why would it want to?
Change things in Canada? Not gonna happen. You know why? Like a car that's old and worn out, you can fix one little problem after another, but it's never going to be reliable or make you happy. Give up.
As for me, whenever I manage to escape this socialist hellhole, you can rest assured that the Stars and Stripes will be flying proudly over the house I'll buy in my adopted country.
Okay. Ranting about this wasn't how I wanted to spend my lunchbreak.
Huh? RCMP? (Score:1)
The all black uniform thing was pretty standard within the OPP before the Tories came into power, IIRC. It's a new thing for Toronto police, who do not (necessarily) come under provincial jurisdiction.
Granted, what the Tories did to education (piss off all the teachers - great idea!) and health care (from now on we won't have any!) is just wrong, but if you're going to bitch and complain, at least get your facts right.
Re:Huh? RCMP? (Score:1)
Ontario has mostly OPP, not RCMP. The RCMP are federal, and rarely seen outside Ottawa.
Oh, and the provinces that aren't Ontario and Quebec. Note to self - scope my comments properly next time.
Re:Yeah, but look at Ontario. (Score:1)
You're not going to get scabies from riding the public transit system.
And declaring that supporting labor unions will turn Canada into a third world nation is just plain foolish. Unions have a place, and when they are kept in balance, their place is important. Without unions, companies could exploit their workers into a state of slavery. It has happened enough times in the past, and it happens today.
And what's with this notion that people such as parking lot attendants and bus drivers and garbage collectors are somehow worth less, and should be shunned by society for what they do? I happen to know several people in McJobs who are trying to earn money to go to school and pay rent and such. They're smart, motivated and generally good people. But guys like you, and much of society, seem to think that not only should they be paid less for their work, but also be despised as a general rule.
When people tell me that it's a crime when bus drivers make the same amount as white collar workers, I always think, "Yeah. The bus driver should be paid more. White collar workers don't provide essential services, or spend the day responsible for the lives of their passengers."
I know you're pointing at parking lot attendants and not bus drivers, but I belive the point is still relevant in that your attitude seems to stem from the same source.
Scabies?
For goodness sake!
The only thing that can come from the current thinking in Ontario is a further division between rich and poor. That leads to increased levels of intolerance, hate, crime, walled communities, and as history shows again and again, revolution.
I really don't think I'm being extremist. I don't like cops wearing riot gear.
Re:Perhaps J Stewart is trying to recoup her losse (Score:1)
Re:Oh, I gotcha now... (Score:1)
Re:Have no illusions (Score:1)
Free speech in Canada is a joke. Free liberal speech that conforms to the intolerant views of the politically correct and self proclaimed victims is the only free speech.
Re:corrupt... (Score:1)
Re:Refugee Status from Canada? (Score:1)
But that individuality of custom prevents the cohesiveness which makes our Southern neighbor so great. The differences between a New Yorker and a Los Angeleno are less than the differences between a Montrealer and a Torontonian.
Further, a Torontonian or Montrealer or Vancouverite will probably identify himself or herself by nation of origin - even several generations back. Ie. "I'm Chinese", or "I'm Pakistani", or "I'm German" or whatever.
In the US, the melting pot that makes the country great is also what builds the cohesiveness and the pride in American citizenship. So, the answers to the above questions would be, "I am an American of Chinese descent," or "I am an American of Pakistani descent" or "I am an American of German descent". Again, I contrast this to the dangerous embrace of multiculturalism that I'm sure I can use to account for all of Canada's problems.
Would I like to live in the U.S. version 2.0?Nah. I want to live in the U.S. version 1.0.
Time out... (Score:1)
Re:Refugee Status from Canada? (Score:1)
I'd like to do it at least partially as a political protest to the way this country is run. It'd be very serious, too - once done, there'd be no way I'd go back.
As for immigrating, yeah, I work for the Canadian offices of a large American defense contractor. I love my job, and I don't want to start applying for transfers without anything solid, because I don't want to risk my current position. I'm the lone administrator of a small flight information project that has a steep learning curve - if I make any bad noises, I'm sure the project will be cancelled. Therefore, the question is either one of a solid offer or an e-mail from my boss asking me if I want to move to Arlington VA.
Visas and things are complicated: I'm self-taught. Further, I want US citizenship; not just a yearly-renewed work visa. Once settled in the US, I'd love to work towards a university degree in my spare time, at least for the challenge, but more practically for the security.
So yeah, I guess I am dead serious.
Resume available on request to the above e-mail address.
Re:No they're not ! (Score:1)
Yes, they are unlinking the database and to get to parts of the database that your department doesn't normally get access to requires approval from the higher-ups in the different ministries. Despite all the brouhaha about not destroying data, there *ARE* legitimate uses for that data. I mean, governments still need to do research right?
When the content is destroyed.....maybe..... (Score:1)
now try to do the same thing in USA (Score:1)
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BeDevId 15453 - Download BeOS R5 Lite [be.com] free!
Re:Not really addressing it (Score:2)
HRDC is more or less in charge of all social programs (including employment insurance, pension,...), so it needs to do research to determine the impact of it's programs and where they are needed. Governments need stuff like this to run the programs. The problem was that the data could be traced to individuals and mined.
As it happens though, Canada has a privacy comissioner who's job it is to watch for stuff like this and reasonably strict laws about how the government can gather and use data about its citizens.
Dana
Re:LOL! What a joke (Score:2)
They need the data exactly for why you said (though it really isn't as sinister as you imply) - because a government needs data on it's citizens to function. They can't blindly assign dollars to programs without studies.
Dana
Re:Not really addressing it - Canadian Politics (Score:1)
The scary thing is that the Provincial governments have kept their mouths shut on this one. All the real power and policy in Canada lies with the Provincial governments. Ontario and Alberta both have fairly right-wing governments but neither of them have touched the internet because they are more concerned about promoting business and fear any policy might endanger an already fragile economy.
Quebec however, has a very controlling nazi-regime type government. They have created language laws and racist policy that is all justified in the name of 'promoting French culture.' Oh and lets not forget to mention the infamous 'Language Police.' These guys go around measuring signs making sure the english is smaller then the french and if it's not you get a nice big fine and your sign comes down. Do it a second time... who knows what peg-leg Bouchard would do to you. I would bet my last dollar that they have a very extensive database on Quebec citizens.
The thing about Canada is that the National Government (the Federal government headed up by crazy Jean) has little say about what happens in the provinces. Canadians need to stop blindly trusting their so called leaders that keep on lying to them about everything from gun control (a huge database of every gun owner in Canada) to the brain drain (California=little Canada).
Just a little rant from a Canadian.
Yeah, but look at Ontario. (Score:1)
This story about the federal liberal databank was used as a convenient distraction, (along with the buzz of the holiday weekend), while the Tory conservative government in Ontario sneaked by a nasty announcement, (which, not surprisingly, few seemed to notice), about their plan to "review" the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act.
Oh yay.
Pardon this tangential story, but. . .
Our current government in Ontario is overwhelmingly conservative because, (IMHO), people are both easily fooled with campaign promises, and easily enraged by stupid stories about how their 'hard earned tax dollars are being spent on lazy homeless people and single starving moms.'
The basic story, which we've seen again and again in Ontario under this government which can pound through laws without challenge because of its massive majority, (changes including huge cuts to health care and education, environmental restrictions lifted or not put into place where needed, privatized prison programs starting up in the wings, and my favorite, the changing of the color of police uniforms to all black; the new color being named, (get this,) 'LAPD Blue'. Oh, and our RCMP must now wear the same kind of hats that U.S. state troopers wear, because in the words of our lead politician, "They look more like 'real' police that way.")
Among other things. But anyway. . .
The basic story is this: Disturbed minister sees Tory wrong doing, (in this case, breaking its own laws by making the social insurance numbers, addresses, phone numbers and bank accounts of about 50,000 private citizens available to two companies). The minister, (Ann Cavoukian), pointed out that this should not have happened.
The Tories' vengeance was to reopen the act. I'm sure whatever they plan to do to it can't possibly be good.
I know this is all off topic, but politics in Ontario, the most powerful province in Canada, seem to have gotten increasingly evil in a very short period of time, and few seem to realize what this can very easily and quickly lead to.
In five years if there's no positive change, I'm probably going to have to move.
Garund
--What if 'The Matrix,' was a piece of propaganda designed to make people fear enlightenment?
The information STILL EXISTS! (Score:1)
They are not deleting the information. They are just changing the PROTOCOL on how to access the information.
The quote I heard yesterday on Ottawa's talk radio CFRA is, "Instead of having one big lake of information, there will be many ponds..."
This is really troublesome, since any government official can still compile anything on anyone in Canada. This has detremental effects when you can see longterm trends in their revenue, taxes, international customs, healthcare, employment, family, driving records, assets, etc. They have a written history on the lives of virtually every Canadian!!!
I am SICK OF THIS CRAP.
Re:No they're not ! (Score:1)
Have no illusions (Score:1)
The part that gets me is that chances are EVERY industrialized nation has a database of this sort buried somewhere in its innards, but thanks to the general stupidity of our own government, now this is public information.
Ah well...
Capt. Ron
How the decision was made... (Score:1)
mafiaboy's dangerous... (Score:3)
Hacker probe nets 2nd suspect: dad [msnbc.com] (MSNBC)
"There may be more to the computer moniker "Mafiaboy" than first believed. Montreal police said today that they moved in on the 15-year-old hacker last weekend after learning from wiretaps that his father had taken out a contract to harm or frighten a business associate and that the attack was imminent. They had wiretapped the boy's house shortly after U.S. and Canadian investigators identified that someone who lived there had launched a disabling computer attack that had shut down CNN's Web site and possibly other big sites in February."
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Re:Yeah, but look at Ontario. (Score:1)
First off, it's not hate. It's frustration. I see no net benefit, nothing to show for the tax money that is taken from me with every paycheck.
If there was maintenance of infrastructure, good health care and a good military to protect me from the rest of the big, bad world, I'd consider it to be money well spent. But there's none of that. There's just government pet projects with no redeeming features to the majority of Canadian taxpayers.
You're not going to get scabies from riding the public transit system.Yes, actually, it can and does happen. And, less troublesome but certainly annoying, sitting on a subway with fleas, lice and generally smelly people.
While I can afford to drive, I will. When the lack of new roads and things makes driving so unattractive or expensive that I'm more or less forced to use transit, that's okay, I'll just take my skills and talents to somewhere that I don't have to ride a subway with career parking attendants.
And declaring that supporting labor unions will turn Canada into a third world nation is just plain foolish. Unions have a place, and when they are kept in balance, their place is important. Without unions, companies could exploit their workers into a state of slavery. It has happened enough times in the past, and it happens todaySure. Labor unions have their place. No question. But, on the other hand, when someone with no skills, no education and no command of either one of the official languages has his/her wages inflated by a union, it does no one any good.
Sure, being a parking attendant sucks. You have a rush in the morning as hundreds of cars need to be parked at once. Then you sit, bored, until the 5 o'clock evening rush. But is that really worth anything more than minimum wage? Who should get minimum wage, if not a parking attendant?
If their skills and abilities were in demand, don't you think that the marketplace laws of supply and demand would push their hourly pay up? Doesn't it seem like this is a better way of coping than inflating their value unnaturally?
If no one will pick up my garbage for $7/hr, then the city will have to attempt to hire people at $8/hr. If they can then staff the sanitation department, I guess that becomes the going rate for that kind of work.
It's not glamorous; not everything can be. And really, I don't care. Let the market choose the price. Those who work hard will find a way of making their own successes.
Re:Just a few teensy questions... (Score:1)
I, and hopefully everyone else, am completely cognizant of the fact you pointed out above. It was this assumed universal cognizance, as well as the rather snarky additional comments ("non-breeding male", et al) that led me to assume that it would not be necessary to explicitly mark that section as sarcastic.
Re:corrupt... (Score:1)
Re:Huh? RCMP? (Score:2)
Vancouver (not greater vancouver, just vancouver) has the vancouver city cops.. the rest of greater van and BC has rcmp. Calgary has city cops, I'm not sure about edmonton, but the rest of alberta has rcmp.
In fact.. almost all of canada uses RCMP.
Mafiaboy (Score:4)
*clap*
Re:Yeah right... (Score:1)
At least we have *more* than two mainstream federal political parties. Last time I checked, we had five. Sounds like a healthy democracy to me, although the federal NDP's "mainstream" status could be debated.
As for being socialist, that's one thing that I like about this country. We've got a first-class medical system, available to every citizen. In my country, proper health care is a right, not a privelege.
Property of the state? Geez. Maybe you should take a look at the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. As was mentioned in this post [slashdot.org], our constitutional rights include:
(a) freedom of conscience and religion
(b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and
expression, including freedom of the press and
other means of communication.
(c) freedom of peaceful assembly; and
(d) freedom of association.
Pretty clear if you ask me.
Oh, and let's not forget this decision [crtc.gc.ca].
Gee whiz, it sure is too bad that us dumb Canadians are pawns of our evil socialist government. I guess I'll just have to go back to using the Internet without fear of some bigot passing laws limiting what I can say, and if I get sick I'll have to go see a world-class doctor. Damn our socialist values.
And the comedians on the CBC are far better than the dreck on "Whose Line Is It Anyway".
corrupt... (Score:1)
Re:Just a few teensy questions... (Score:1)
Maybe I'm missing a level of sarcasm here but you can not hide your social assistance and income tax history from the government in the same way you can not hide your birth information from your mother.
Re:Have no illusions (Score:2)
Hi, you're wrong.
It's simply called "freedom of expression". Look up Section 2 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. It is in fact more comprehensive than the American "freedom of speech".
Subject to reasonable limitations, as are all sections of the Charter, but our court system is pretty good about that stuff.
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This is good news (Score:1)
Even better news would be to have the CCRA delete me from their database.