Censorship In China 272
An Anonymous Coward writes: "Have a look at
this Businessweek article:
a site was partly censored for 15 days because of a post uncomfortable to the Chinese government, and
this Mercury Center article
that proposes a more global view of the China/Taiwan issue. Surprisingly, both articles suggest that things are going better and better."
Very topical; the U.S. vote on
permanent normalized trade relations
is scheduled for today.
Re:I have a question for Americans.. (Score:1)
Re:U.S. Embargoed Countries (Score:2)
The US does NOT have the largest military... (Score:4)
>country with the largest military in the world
The US does NOT have the largest military in the world.
Know who does? China!
I don't have current numbers, but as of Desert Storm, the US was not even in the top five. There was a big stink about how we were facing the "mother of all wars" against Iraq, which, at the time, and the fourth largest military in the world.
At the time we were number seven. Ahead of Iraq was china, Russia, and vietnam. Desert Storm prolly bumped Iraq out of the picture and upped us to number six.
But then, we've done nothing but cut back the military ever since Desert Storm, so I really doubt that we're still that high. And we certianly do NOT have the largest military in the world. That dubious honor still goes to china.
john
Giving the finger? .. (Score:1)
I suppose, given your logic, that desegregation gives the finger to all the Confederate soldiers who died in the American Civil War?
Re:I have a question for Americans.. (Score:1)
Now, I think the embargo against Cuba is stupid, because it doesn't actually hurt Castro, just the men on the street. Castro can then blame the US for Cuba's piss-poor shape rather than Communism. End the embargo and Castro would be gone in a year. But if you want to win Florida (which has the 3rd or 4th largest population in the US and a TON of electoral votes) in a presidential election, then you are going to keep the embargo. Such is the nature of politics.
-jon
Re:I have a question for Americans.. (Score:1)
Nrrrt!
Groups of individuals optimizing to a very simple metric can create very complex systems (see Santa Fe Institute [santafe.edu]). There may be local "bad" results from greed, but is the greater results of groups of individuals motivated by greed really that bad? I don't know, but the answer is definitely not obvious.
Re:Yes, he is right... YOU are wrong: (Score:2)
Re:Me thinks a trend is happening (Score:1)
i'd say, as they figure out how, all governments are going to take a stand over particular things they don't want their public to see. the beauty of it all though, is that it's utterly futile, what with the proxy show-me-what-i'm-not-spose-to-see toys. and i'm sure technology will always be ahead of governments, in ensuring free access to information.
el bobo
Re:Difference (Score:1)
Re:Difference (Score:4)
If intimidation (sending a threatening letter with the understanding that you can outspend the victim in courts) counts as "due process of law", then I'm not surprised that no one is able to respect the law anymore.
Any American who still finds comfort in the fact that he can't be attacked without "due process" is deluding himself. Is there any connection remaining between the process and justice? All that seperates us from the Chinese are a few words on a page that no one takes seriously anymore anyway.
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Try their cigars... (Score:1)
Re:Difference (Score:1)
The government is the government, while a corporation, no matter how large, has no absolute legal power. Given that China is a soveign state, recognized as such by other countries all over the world, the government is, by definition, the end-all, be-all definition of legality, and acceptable behavior. Meaning? It is by definition correct!
Remember: France, Germany, England, Ireland, etc. do not recognize you individually. They recognize America, the country. Look at your passport: requests for safe passage are made on your behalf by the Secretary of State.
Point? You are not recognized by by other countries. China's government is. It has more-or-less absolute power over its citizens. As it should. So quit bitching! On the other hand, you are a private entity. So is Micro$oft.
If "Mike" didn't like it, he should get out of the country. (Many of us did!)
Americans don't like it when other countries point and laugh at our cheating politicians, pedophiles, whinos, drive-by shootings, etc. and many firmly believe in the it's none of your business line. How is this any different?
Sure, you can bitch and whine about human rights to free speech, freedom to congregate, freedom to carry automatic weapons and shoot each other. Whatever. It makes no difference. Given China's government's legitmacy, as supported by its recognition by countries all around the world, it is prefectly within its rights to do whatever the hell it damn well likes!
Re:If Stallman had his way (Score:1)
you can figure out these moderation mysteries by clicking on the # of the post... (that little (#13) there)...
Tough, huh?
Re:I have a question for Americans.. (Score:1)
UN regulations are intended to prevent this 'none of your business' attitude. Thereby, hopefully, averting another World War.
Hamish
Re:Information Control (Score:3)
Yes.. there is internet in China.. and only those providers who comply with strict regulations can provide it.
Re:is slashdot gonna be censored? (Score:1)
I believe that they have already sentenced Anonymous Coward to death
Re:Difference (Score:1)
Re:I have a question for Americans.. (Score:1)
So what makes you sure that the world's a better place?
(Meant as an honest question, not just a rhetorical one.)
Re:You're absolutely right... (Score:2)
As regards the year-to-year renewal process being a motivation factor for China's continued liberalization, there are stronger forces at work there. The Communist Party does understand that private enterprise needs to flourish as the government-owned enterprises collapse or are restructured, since jobs are desperately needed for the millions of urban workers who are being displaced. (I wrote a term paper on this transitional process for a Developmental Economics class once, so I've done some research)
Locking in permanent MFN status for China has been a prerequisite for China's entry into the WTO, which will prove to be more of a liberalizing force than any gaggle of pontificating US Senators could ever hope to be. China's move towards private enterprise over the last 15-20 years has resulted in the single greatest economic achievement in terms of sheer numbers of people lifted out of abject poverty in memory, and a further herculean effort will be needed to avoid social chaos as structural reforms continue. We can either jump on board and help transform the lives of 20% of the people on this planet, or we can create another Cold War. The choice is ours.
Re:I have a question for Americans.. (Score:1)
Re:I have a question for Americans.. (Score:3)
[theory]
It's probably a 'love thine enemy' powerplay; Get the Chinese to stop contemplating nuclear first strike against the US by buying them off with the US market. On the other hand, we couldn't really offer Fidel anything he would take in return for the same contemplation..
[/theory]
I'm all for a little China spanking: They deserve it. I'm also for a lift of the embargo with Cuba: They don't..
Justification: 1 billion consumers (Score:1)
Cuba does not.
Seriously, the theory is that the more capitalism spreads in China, the more people will want freedom and democracy. Most Cubans already have access to western goods so this theory doesn't really apply in most people's eyes.
Re:I'm in China, and I would like to say ... (Score:1)
Capitalism has little to do with a nation's government. You can have a democracy, a republic, a parliament, a monarchy, even a dictatorship, and still have a capitalist economy.
Simply injecting capitalism into a society is futile unless there are fundamental government-level changes that occur at the same time. Take a look at the current state of Russia for a good example of that. Yeltsin (who did many things right, but just as many wrong) made some sweeping capitalist reforms, but was really pretty weak on producing a stable government. So what's the current state of things in Russia? From what I've read, corruption is rampant, all the wealth is in the hands of very few, and "might makes right" in governing (see Chechnya).
Yes, capitalism is probably the best economic system out there (despite the problems). But it's not a silver bullet. Unless it's combined with an equally good government, the sought-after reforms will be a long time coming. And something tells me free trade won't do anything to alleviate the problem of censorship in China!
JimD
Re:I have a question for Americans.. (Score:2)
I know there are human rights violations in Cuba but there's no way that the embargo has ever been about that.
Difference (Score:4)
Re:I have a question for Americans.. (Score:1)
Who thinks trading with China is a good thing? Business does. Whether it is ag-corps selling canned hams, tobacco selling, well, tobacco, or aerospace/telecom/tech companies grabbing whatever market share they can, Big Business (worn cliche, I know) wants permenant China trade (no worries about long term contracts). So, since market capitalization has been placed before our (blemished) ethics and corporations buy whatever legislation they need, the shining beacon of democracy has been replaced with the blue light special.
Cuba gets differant treatment, why? Sugar producers don't want cheap Cuban sugar in US markets, tobacco wants keep out the better quality(?) Cuban products, The Cuban people are so poor that they would not be purchasing enough US product, and no one wants to alienate the Cuban-American political bloc.
Re:Yes, he is right... YOU are wrong: (Score:1)
Cheap labor=cheap products
Why win9x really sucks [cjb.net]
China (Score:1)
Patience pays (or, "Consider the Alternative") (Score:2)
The Chinese leadership is looking at the G7 countries and saying to themselves, "Gee, someday we want to be like them." At the same time, they're looking at the frightening example of the former Soviet countries where productivity has dropped by half in the past decade. The Soviet experience presents a cautionary tale that the Chinese cannot afford to ignore. We do not yet have a model for tranforming a failed communist economy into a successful free market economy. But, we have learned from the Soviet experience that shock treatment doesn't work.
The Chinese have already established a number of highly successful special economic zones where free trade reigns. They've also evinced an if-it-ain't-broke-don't-fix-it disposition in Hong Kong since taking over.
Eventually, all of China will become a huge special economic zone. But, remember that the world's largest group of poor, uneducated people lives in China. They'll need to keep basic services like education, food production and medical care (to name a few) running for a few more decades in order to get there. When a critical mass of Chinese are well off and well educated, then they will insist on democracy and an end to corruption, as has recently happened in Taiwan. This will likely occur around the time we have a $1,000 computer about as powerful as a human brain (about twenty five years from now). Sounds like an interesting future.
Re:How do you do that? (Score:1)
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Re:Better Working Conditions? (Score:2)
sure. just like in Malaysia, Taiwan, Indonesia, Mexico....
Yes...and the reason you know that US companies run business in these countries is because when they don't adhere to basic treatment of workers it gets plastered all over the news. Can we say Cathy Lee Gifford? Not to mention comparing Malay, Thai or Korean economic development before and after US companies started doling out the work.
Re:Difference (Score:2)
Other Related Stories (Score:2)
A. Keiper
The Center for the Study of Technology and Society [tecsoc.org]
Washington, D.C.
Not to sound negative... (Score:1)
this a republican-sponsored issue as well (Score:1)
perhaps you should do some reading before placing these wild conspiracy theories up as posts, hmmm? the reason you can't back any of this up is because there are no facts to support it...or did the chinese contribute to all the repubs election campaigns as well?
Re:Difference (Score:1)
The US gov't, at least in theory, can't do those sorts of things. Well, ok, they can but it usually riles people up and the offending info just goes to other servers.
One thing the gov't explicitly cannot do is called "prior restraint." We at least get some chance to look at bad stuff before it is yanked.
A company can basically do whatever it wants to you. It's completely unaccountable to anyone but the shareholders. Public opinion *might* get you somewhere, but it's doubtful.
I have a question for Americans.. (Score:5)
How can you justify trading with a Chinese Communist government, still unapologetic about human rights violations (i.e. Tienemen Square), when you won't trade with Fidel Castro's Communist Cuba for the same reason?
I know this sounds very argumentative, but if money and market size is truly your motivation, then why no lift those same embargoes against Cuba? Standing on moral ground until the market is large enough just looks very hypocritical.
Re:If Stallman had his way (Score:1)
Agreed. But I don't see that this is a free speech issue (I'm mortified that I spelled "speech" wrong in my previous post, BTW), because anyone can read, discuss, and distribute GPL'd code. Maybe you can't distribute binaries that you make from that code without any restrictions, but that's commerce or copyright law, not freedom of speech. In fact, the main way to violate the GPL (by not distributing source along with binaries) would be anti-free speech, because now you aren't passing along the author's thoughts (embodied in code) to your users. I could make the argument that the GPL in fact encourages free speech, because anything you say in the code has to be distributed to anyone who gets the binary. No one can use your work without also passing along your writing.
So yes the code isn't free in the sense that it's public domain and anything can be done with it, but I think it's a stretch to say that RMS has anything against the free interchange of ideas. He's probably done more to encourage that than almost anyone in the last 20 years. I certainly haven't heard him call for censorship of those who have violated the GPL, for example - he usually just wants them to straighten up and fly right with respect to licensing issues.
Re:I'm in China, and I would like to say ... (Score:1)
Those are all very good points. I guess my expectation is that capitalism will bring Western goods to the Chinese people, and eventually Western ideas along with it. While you can have capitalism under those different forms of government, the ideas of fair market price and prizing efficiency which are embedded in the capitalistic system ultimately lead people to a more egalitarian view of commerce, and ultimately of their entire world. When the people see what their government has done to them, I predict at least a velvet revolution, and possibly a violent one. It may depend on the harvest that year. That sounds really cold-blooded, but ultimately the citizens of a country are responsible for their government, and they bear the ultimate responsibility to change it for the better whether by working within the system, or by replacing the system.
The conditions in Russia are awful, and I blame the west (western Europe and the U.S.) for that. Maybe we should have spent more time emphasizing democratic ideals and a strong stance on individual rights and liberties, rather than just trying to bail out their economy. Their economy would probably right itself overnight if they had the proper laws against corruption and crime and those laws were policed and enforced correctly.
Re:Difference (Score:1)
Is this Xenophobia, or do people have a real case? (Score:2)
The problem I have in trying to figure out this case is I can't tell how much of part xenophobia plays in this, and I can't tell how much of a real case people have against China. I am not an expert on current US-China trade relationtions, although I do know more then my fair share about Chinese history (I read the Water Margin...twice!)
The problem is that even though the Chinese government is doing plenty of evil things, people would hate them and say they were evil even if they wern't. Can anyone deny that there is a lot of anti-Chinese sentiment in America?
A hundred years ago, there was the same basic arguments about letting Chinese workers into our country (and Chinese workers did end up building most of our Western railroad system, at great cost of life to them). During this time their was great furor in Cali about their ways, probably because they smoked that devil opium and worshipped that pagan Buddha idol. Or basically, FUD because they took jobs away from American workers, or maybe just because they were different. All hidden under a veil of morality.
Much of what still goes on is still the same thing, fear and prejudice disguised as moralizing, this time it is hidden behind the rhetoric of the Chinese government doesn't follow human rights, instead of the Chinese people aren't Christians. And the same economic interests are making this rhetoric important.
Human rights we like to believe, and I think this is true, are more then just a local moralistic prejudice. Our concern about this stems not from trying to force a way of life on others, but on a concern for the Chinese people, and that our oppostion is to the Chinese govermnent.
On the other hand, the opposing argument is that China has a history of authoritarian government, and that it is part of their culture. To oppose the authority of the Chinese government is to oppose the teeming masses of China, who have indirectly given the "mandate of heaven" to their rulers by not rebelling (succesfully, at least). So even if our local notion of rule by the people and by the law is not carried out in China, there is a culturally different but still valid system of popular rule going on in China.
Those, I think are the basic arguments and counter arguments to the China issue. Here are my own humble opinions about what these mean:
1. "Not letting China into the WTO is xenophobia and will bar China from the community of nations." I think this is false. China is already part of the community of nations in most ways, it participates in every major international scientific and diplomatic body AFAIK. They have a permanent seat on the UN council of five! The real issue here is whether they will be let into the system of global capitalism. The interests here seem to both be economic, business vs. unions. Right now I will have to vote with the unions, but in either case they do not need to participate enriching a fraction of the US Economy to participate in global affairs
2. "The government of China is not evil. They are merely trying to admistister a large country and most of the people support them." This, I belive, is true. Considered to some truly brutal dictatorships where you wonder what the strong man is putting on his cereal, China is very well run. China is not a one man state but a state run by a council of older bureacrats who honestly do love their country and want to see it prosper. And they have been seeing it prosper. They are not fanatical with hate, and they do not wish to harm people. They are cold and ruthless, but not cruel.
3. "China has different notions of human rights and government authority caused by their traditions and history." True, but who cares? United States tradition and history said for a long time (for example) that blacks were inferior and that they were fit to be slaves. We realized that this was wrong, and we changed it, or tried to change it. Why is China somehow immune from making changes? And my own sense of personal values, and I think that most people would agree with me, says that human rights (and political rights) are not just local prejudices, not just a cultural thing. They are universal, and any civilized country of any culture or history should recognize them.
Thank you for listening. My own mind is made up that China should not be in the WTO (mostly because I don't like the WTO), but draw your own conclusions.
Re:The US does NOT have the largest military... (Score:1)
Their artillery and heavy machinery are all aging and outdated, thus the recent spending increase in the military. But the Chinese government doesn't have a problem throwing a few hundred thousand soldiers as a buffer against the U.S., theres always more where that came from.
capitalism simply means freedom to choose (Score:2)
Totally false. To the extent your nation is unfree, it isn't capitalist. This is because the defining nature of capitalism is that what's yours is yours, what's mine is mine, and neither of us has a right to take without permission - in other words, freedom. Anything that compromises this (tax-and-spend, communism, censorship etc) will commensurately destroy capitalism.
It runs the other way too, nowadays - capitalism left as an option will undermine and erode restrictions of free choice, by shopping around for legal systems - both on the personal and coprorate levels.
This doesn't mean, though, that companies will gain long-term by buying into corrupt regimes that are prepared to make them special exceptions. Such a situation will always backfire on them in time; they'll themselves become victims of a bigger crony, or they'll lose customers when the customers see the law is biased.
Capitalism pushes legal systems everywhere towards "laissez faire" - where the law is for justice, protection, and arbitration, not for restriction, privelige, or looting.
Re:America is a plutocracy (Score:1)
Unfortunately it's not the "person in China" who can earn a better living. Being a communist country (i assume, I haven't studied Mao-style communism) means that it is not the individual who gets a better living, but the community (country) as a whole. Again unfortunately, it seems that the real world effect of this is that the person getting richer is the one working for the government (who own everything anyway) not the one doing the work.
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Re:Throwing them a bone (Score:2)
But that is a very intresting idea aclaudet, I wouldn't doubt if it had some kernel of truth to it
PS: The text of the bill can be found here [loc.gov] there's a PDF version but it's got a horrible layout.
Re:I have a question for Americans.. (Score:2)
Molog
So Linus, what are we doing tonight?
For those interested: (Score:2)
You can find the CNN [cnn.com] article here [cnn.com]. An amusing point is that there is also a link to a Time article on the point brought up here about whether opening trade with China means trade should be opened up with Cuba. You can find that here [time.com].
Major point: The Senate will consider the issue after Memorial Day. The vote will probably come in early June and the normalized trade is expected to pass. It hasn't completely passed yet, but the chances of it failing are miniscule.
B. Elgin
Re:You're absolutely right... (Score:2)
That is not to say that you shouldn't take reasonable steps to avoid buy stuff made in countries you dissaprove of, but being 100% sure is impossible without enacting some draconian legislation regarding country-of-origin labeling.
Re:Difference (Score:2)
Re:Yes, he is right... YOU are wrong: (Score:2)
nope
>Do you wear Nikes?
nope
>Do you wear any clothes at all? Almost everything
>you wear comes from China.
Lets see... Jacket: Sri Lanka. Shirt: USA. Shoes: UK. Pants: Mexico.
I'm not gonna bother checking to see where my underwear was made. But you get the point.
>The DVD player that you own is made in China.
Wrong again. Mine was made in Japan. As was the DVD-ROM in my computer.
>Just about everything that is mass produced comes
>from there.
Lets see... My car: Japan. My Mac: Ireland. My PC: Japan... (looking at the items on my desk) Telephone: Canada. Keyboard: Thailand BallPoint pen: Taiwan. Headphones: Taiwan Penguin Mints: Seattle... wait. The *box* that the mints are in was made in china.
You were saying something about how important china is to me?
>I can assure you, those $100 Nikes that you so
>enjoy will cost twice as much.
And I couldn't care less. Never owned a pair of nikes. Never will. I'm confidant enough of myself not to have to be a trendy little pissant and try to "be like mike". Too bad you don't understand that that is possible.
john
OT: China [PRC] blocked Taiwan's entry into WHO (Score:2)
"...This is what happened. On September 21, the UN consulted with the Security Council about providing Taiwan with rescue and relief aid. A UN official then reported that China refused to respond to the issue positively, preventing the UN from providing timely assistance. Published reports later also revealed that China demanded that any UN or Red Cross aid for Taiwan must first be approved by Beijing."
"It is terribly unfortunate that Taiwan, with 23 million people, a population larger than three-quarters of the UN member-states, is not allowed to receive immediate and timely humanitarian assistance from the international community..."
Re:Difference (Score:2)
There's absolutely nothing wrong with being cynical - because cynical is more often closer to the truth than denial - which is what you seem to be in.
US big business and the chinese gov't have a LOT in common. They all aim to take power and liberty from the people - whether china chooses human rights abuses, or big business chooses patents and law suits - they are all tools to keep the little people small, and themselves big.
You've made the fatal assumption of thinking that elements of totalitarianism don't exist in a democratic society. Your wrong - especially with a free market economy where money buys media.
enlighten us then (Score:2)
Re:Difference (Score:2)
Corporations in democratic republics are usually fairly restrained creatures by comparison to what they end up being in places like China where they are overwhelmingly government dominated. The Chinese army (PLA) has thousands of businesses that they actually use to meet payroll. Labor negotiations in such places are conducted with the full knowledge that the boss has tanks and can use them at any time.
One problem is when you are degenerating from a democratic republic to a corporatist state (my take on the US). You have the theoretical restraints of the Constitution but ever more frequently they don't hold as government has gotten beyond the control of the people and corporations are successful at buying law.
DB
The Cuban embargo must be lifted. (Score:2)
We can't justify it. There is no excuse. The embargo should be lifted, preferably yesterday.
Right-wingers like to believe that we are making some sort of grand "moral" stand against Fidel Castro and Communism, but as you have pointed out, the hypocrisy is nearly staggering. The United States is the only country in the world that has decided to make such a stand (with the possible exception of Israel, or have they backed down?)
Don't get me wrong; I would very much like to see a democratic, Castro-free Cuba. But keeping up with the embargo is not the way to encourage such a transition. One of the things that people tend to underplay in the collapse of the Soviet Union was the introduction of the Internet into society (and therefore, the fostering of the free exchange of information.) America is doing nothing to contribute to a change of power in Cuba. If anything, we are helping Fidel Castro by giving him a common "enemy" that he can unite his people behind.
If we Americans really wanted freedom and democracy in Cuba, we would drop the embargo. In addition, it would be a boon to U.S. businesses, but that would only be (in my opinion) a side effect.
Re:China...porn!!!!!!!!! (Score:2)
Well, I'm really not sure what got your panties in a bind, but let me drop a couple of comments back at ya here:
Interesting how you start your article off by saying that there is no porn in China, obviously something that is off the top of your mind.
Not really. I mentioned it first because it's something that I've heard a lot of people discuss in relation to China in a completely different area. Sorry if it disappoints you to hear that.
Actually 4.5 years is a long time ago, and 4.5 months in a farmers town doe snot make you an expert, that slike saying any foreign national who spends 4.5 months in Wyoming is an expert in the affairs of the hallowed halls of Washington.
China is a country of slow social and govornment changes - most of the time. But - even then, I still keep up with events there. As I mentioned I was there on work. The company still travels there, and I still hear how things are - and, for the most part, things haven't changed much. Cell phones are getting more and more dominant, since there's such a long wait for phone service. Those who are in areas where it's not nearly as long of a wait for phone services are slowly getting 'net access - it's quite the growth thing there now. Things change, but I do keep up.
a lot of Chinese actually "like " their government, they have their reasons too, just cause they dont subscribe to the American Constitution, does not mean that they have a shitty government.
I never said they did or didn't like thier govornment. Considering that there are still party members there, at least SOMEONE like it over there. It's the same as here - some people like the govornment, some don't.
And, Yep, as a matter of fact - I do speak Chineese. But, admittedly, I'm not completely fluent - that's what the company's translator was for. I could do quite a bit with what I do know, but, my comprehension of the language does have limitations. And keep in mind - you didn't have much else to do unless you could find a ride to Bejing.
US is not teh centre of the universe buddy, go back to Wyoming
I never said it was. After having seen as much of the US, Canada, China, Hong Kong, and Japan as I managed to get the chance to see, I can honestly say that no - the US isn't the center of the Universe. And I've never been on to claim it was.
And furthermore - I probably shouldn't respond to obvious troll bait, but twits like you piss me off. No one here had stepped forward and said "Yep, I'm familiar with what this particular far away place is like - I've been here. Here's what I know...." So I did, and passed on the information that I knew on the subject. That's part of what /. is about, if I remember correctly. It USED to be very much about the dissemination and trading of information that would be of interest to the geek community at large (in particular, two geeks - you know who) and further discussion with people who understood the subject matter was a joy. It's twits like you that type with one hand on the keyboard and one hand around thier favorite muscle that like to try and piss everyone else off just so you get your jollies that have managed to nearly destroy the ability to have a good dialog on /. Now - did my response finally make you spooge, so that you can go climb back under the covers and get a good night's sleep?
237-197 apathy vote (Score:2)
As to those who keep harping about how China is "getting better" are unbelievably naive and spoon fed by the media, as the parent poster pointed out. What do you think keeps China interested in winning PR? Free trade, now that they're gonna get it [cnn.com] they won't be terribly interested in real reforms.
In the meantime I hope everyone with a Rep who voted yes on this sends him/her a mean letter on how they have lost at least one vote.
Re:I can assure you... (Score:2)
Let's face it, at this point, there aren't any good communists, there are just those who have blood on their hands and can't live with the fact that they were a part of the machinery of evil (and are thus in major denial), those who look forward to getting in the power seat and don't mind blood on their hands in future, and those fellow travellers who can't admit to themselves and others that they have been supporting a monstrous unadulterated evil.
DB
Re:Human rights in US? (Score:2)
even china signed this.
//rdj
Re:I have a question for Americans.. (Score:2)
A few years ago, someone in congress stated that they were going to 'change health care whether or not the american people wanted it'. Luckily that statement was inflammatory enough that he was slapped down before anything was done. But that same attitude is seen every day in our elected representatives -- they do things they know the public doesn't want them to do. They assume that they're smarter and better informed than the public...so why listen to the masses? The masses aren't even important in elections anymore; pandering to corporate interests is the way to win an election. Screw what Americans want -- we're the *Government*!
Yes, this egomania in our government is really, really infuriating. Yes, something should be done about it. No, I can't point to any signs that it'll get better anytime soon.
Re:I have a question for Americans.. (Score:2)
In which case why does the US insist on imposing it's views on the rest of the world...
Look at the bananna issue in Europe where they are forcing people to buy south american stock (all owned by the us) and using the threat of taxing domestic imports from Europe to destroy the carribean bananna trade, the invasion of Panama and many other central american countries. 'Nam, Korea, blowing up a medicines factories in Africa, stopping other people from developing nuclear weapons whilst keeping a clause in that they can improve their existing ones, pressuring the UN to keep trade sanctions on Iraq when only the US and UK want to keep them, etc. etc.
If you want more examples I can supply them.
ANd no, infact when signing up to the UN you have to agree to conduct yourself within certain international laws. Human Rights Laws, Laws of Engagement, Trade laws, Laws governing the use and production of Nuclear Weapons (and other weapons of mass destruction)
Look at the Geneva convention, the Hague accord, etc.
Sometimes the US lieks to think it is above international law, which is a shame because it is the least civilised part of your nation.
Most amusing part (Score:2)
> An Internet entrepreneur in Beijing whom I called told me that we should see Yi's punishment as a sign of progress. Chinese journalists
> have landed in jail for lesser offenses.
Gotta love progress. I mean, it's nice that he hasn't been executed or anything, but when being shutdown for a few weeks is considered fortunate.... I almost feel better about living in the US. Then I realize that China is making better forward movement than the US! *shudder* I used to think it wasn't so bad living in one of the dumbest countries in the world.
You're absolutely right... (Score:2)
As to the larger issue of restricting trade with countries which don't adhere to the same cultural values as our own, I don't see what good that does anybody. International cooperation through trade is one of the best agents for peace that's come along in the last fifty years.
Re:I have a question for Americans.. (Score:2)
Are you honestly claiming that if you enter into a contract with someone to host your website, that it's entirely within their discretion to take your site offline?
---
Are you honestly claiming that they don't?
First, if it's in the contract that they have the sole right to take stuff down, it's a no-brainer. You read it and agreed to it by signing up.
The main issue is whether or not you get fair warning and/or a refund. If the content is specifically barred, I don't think the host should feel bad at all - the customer screwed up or ignored the rules. If the host decides after the fact, they should be fairly liberal about it and provide the hostee with some sort of recourse.
Personally, I'm all for web hosts being free on what they'll host. But if it's illegal or goes against the pre-defined rules in the terms of service, that's that.
Remember, though: a web host's policies do not necessarily have anything to do with the government they are under. A lot of people use lawyers to scare companies into taking stuff offline, but in the end they most likely didn't have a case (basically, Verio didn't really care about it - even a
- Jeff A. Campbell
- VelociNews (http://www.velocinews.com [velocinews.com])
Re:China's Capital Crimes. (Score:2)
Your comparison of children to women is quaint...when can we expect you to leave the 19th century?
---
Huh?
He was saying that adult women should be treated just like adult males, as well as 'adult' children over the age of 16.
How is this quaint? Wouldn't it be quaint if he said the opposite, ie. that women should be treated differently than men?
- Jeff A. Campbell
- VelociNews (http://www.velocinews.com [velocinews.com])
Re:U.S. Embargoed Countries (Score:2)
Re:Difference (Score:2)
I for one find it unfair to blame Janet Reno for all the enforcement excesses of the Clinton administration.
---
Are you serious? Any credible DOJ would have been looking into the Clinton administration long ago, and tossed it out on its ass. Chinese fundraising, Chinese espionage (notice a trend here?), plus all sorts of perjury.
And no, I'm not some right-winger. But consider this: it has been more of a coverup-specialist for the current administration than its supposed 'watchdog' function. At best, they've ignored blatant illegal acts - at worst, they've actively defended them.
As has been said, "the buck stops here". Any competant Attorney General should have spoken up or tossed the guilty parties out. She has been a puppet, basically, but deserved any blame thrown at her.
- Jeff A. Campbell
- VelociNews (http://www.velocinews.com [velocinews.com])
Re:U.S. Embargoed Countries (Score:2)
Is this list still in effect?
I'm kind of surprised that Russia is on there...
- Jeff A. Campbell
- VelociNews (http://www.velocinews.com [velocinews.com])
Re:I have a question for Americans.. (Score:2)
> tanks is a bad thing, yes?
Yes (Kent State).
> How about the blatant censoring of material that it displeasing to the Communist Party?
Yes (FBI Files).
> The jailing and oppression of political
dissenters and non-standard religions?
Yes (Branch Davidians).
> You're argument is a variation on the ad hominem fallacy. If a person who says, "It is
> wrong to murder", is himself a murderer, does it make his statement any less true?
No, but it makes the person a hypocrite.
Note, though, that I support normalization of relations between the U.S. and Cuba, and that I do not support this relationship with China.
Cuba is our neighbor, and China is not. Cuba has no real ability to threaten U.S. interests, and China does (Panama Canal, U.S. nuclear technology, political blood-money). I cannot bring myself, as much as I am in favor of free trade and the benefits that go with it, and the responsibilities that come with those benefits, to support opening trade permanently with a regime like China.
Can someone (preferably a Chinese person) tell me just what is so bad about Falun Gong?
--Corey
I'm in China, and I would like to say ... (Score:2)
i hope that everhyone can understand teh position of hte chinese government nhere
please, since this article mentions something abuot normalizing trade with china, i hope that no slashdot reader is put off just because they're doing censorship in china. i'm sure that china will open up one day, but one step at a time, please.
you see china is doing a lot to open up, e.g. here in Hong Kong sar, we have a pretty free society.
Re:I have a question for Americans.. (Score:2)
As for human right violations, China is getting better over time and becoming more open. And as for the US they have no grounds to get on a moral high horse as their regularly use social, economic and military pressure to impose their will on the world (even invading countries that are difficult and small enough not to get much support...
Is anyone really surprised? (Score:4)
While I agree that China has made significant progress in the past 10 years, we still have to remember we are dealing with a country whose government is ideologically opposed to the United States.
On the plus side, China is going about with their reform in a very positive way. Unlike Russia, China is slowly moving towards a more capitalistic society... but sometimes I wonder if it's at the expense of it's citizens.
Ofcourse, if you look at recent events in the US in regards to the WTO meetings and the way the protestors were handled... perhaps we're not much different than China... and maybe we deserve eachother.
On an interesting note, it appears the the FBI considers TAIWAN a priority in counter-intelligence activities, and a hostile intelligence threat to the United States. Reno calls Taiwan an intelligence threat [washingtontimes.com]
Re:I have a question for Americans.. (Score:2)
The unravelling of Westphalia is going to lead to more war as people decide that it is OK to get into each other's business and the inevitable backlash will lead to asymetric warfare and other low intensity style conflicts.
DB
Thank you for the straw man (Score:2)
OTOH: I am interested in hearing your justification for the Catholic bashing. Nobody is arguing that the Catholic Church was running the death camps in WW II and certainly the Jews of the time had kind words for the pontiff's stands as a leader thumbing his nose at the Axis in the middle of their power. The accusations only started coming years later and it is sad to see off the wall bigotry like you posted above. Shame on you.
DB
WHAT an AMAZING COINCIDENCE! (Score:3)
Isn't it just an AMAZING coincidence that these papers just HAPPENED to run articles "suggest[ing] that things are going better", just as the vote is coming up in congress?
From time to time you may notice that something is very wrong in some part of the world, and suddenly there are a bunch of stories that say it's right, or rapidly improving. Or you may notice that everybody you know is on one side of the issue and the media talks like everybody is on the other. Or the crowds are bigger on one side of the demonstration and the media reports them as bigger on the other. Or the media reports tiny demonstrations on one side of an issue and ignores big ones on the other. Or the media reports polls that claim you, and everybody you know, are members of a tiny minority on some big issue. And you may wonder why.
And you may wonder why they bother, since EVERYBODY knows things are the other way around.
Consider this:
The congressmen live in a very sheltered environment. They're buried in their work. They almost never get back to their own districts to listen and "soak" in the opinions of their constituents. Whether at work or back home, almost everybody they talk to is trying to convince them to take a side on some issue. And they can't afford to run a LOT of polls on their own. So how do they guage their consituents opinions?
They watch the media.
If the media want to control the country's laws, they don't have to convert the voters. They just have to convince the legislators that the voters are converted. They don't have to fix things in China, they just have to convince the legislators that things are fixed. And so on.
And it's the same when the media wants the executive branch to interpret or enforce laws in some way, put pressure put on or take it off a group or a country, start or stop a war, and so on.
In the sixties they were referred to as "The Establishment Media" and treated as part of a monster. Now the phrase is rarely heard - because the people who once uttered it are members of the very establishment media they once railed against. The slant is different, but the game is the same.
"Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss."
Re:China (Score:5)
China is... interesting. I spent 4 1/2 months there doing work on a feed mill in Langfang, PRC. (About 2 hours out of Bejing) Being very used to America, going to China was a real eye-opener. Porn? Forget it - it exists, but it's pretty rare. Don't even think about throwing a couple of playboys in your luggage and taking them with you either. (I didn't try it myself.)
Bibles? Forget it. A guy I knew would take a couple with him - but definitely not more than two or three. He was very religious, and didn't typically try and 'convert' the locals, but took some in case anyone was interested in reading about the Christian concepts. If they think you are planning on distributing religious materials, you can find yourself in hot-water quickly.
Don't talk bad about the govornment there. While here in the US there was always the half-joking concept of a 'card carrying communist' it's not much of a joke there. You won't know who is or isn't communist there, unless they pull out thier little red party book. And, talkin' bad about the Chineese govorment is a good way of attracting lots of unwanted attention.
There's lots of things not to take pictures of there. Don't have your pics developed in China - wait until you get home. I learned that one - some of the film I had developed never came back from the photo-developer there in China. I still have no idea what was objectionable in them...
It boils down to: No discussion on govornment. No discussion on religion. No discussion on sex. That's pretty much the rules I learned while I was there.
One other thing of note that's just completely strange to an American - here we are used to hearing what happens everywhere else in the world, and particularly, all the other sections of our own country. In China, it's much, MUCH slower for information to get around - most of it is still word of mouth the last time I was there. Newspapers and TV are a joke, as only 'approved' stuff get through.
Granted - this was also 4 years ago that I was there. Things may well have changed by now.
And in related news.... (Score:4)
Beijing has banned one of Taiwan's top pop
stars after she sang the island's national
anthem at last Saturday's inauguration of
President Chen Shui-bian.
A-Mei, who is wildly popular on the mainland,
has been permanently blacklisted in China,
officials said.
US soft drinks giant
Coca-Cola has been
forced to drop a
multi-million dollar
advertising campaign in
China featuring A-Mei.
LOL! Errm, you are joking, right? (Score:3)
but I would imagine since Cuba is only a short boat ride away from the USA and China is way across the Pacific ocean, Cuba could pose a more serious direct threat than the Chinese.
Cuba a threat to the US? How? The only threat they ever posed to the US was as a staging ground for the Russians, which is hardly the case any more. It's not like they could invade the US is it?
Plus, wasn't the embargo placed back in the 60's when we WERE having problems with Cuba?
So we should keep it in place now? This seems to be what you're implying.
It's not the fact that they're communist moreso as to how they treat their citizens and how much of a threat they are to the USA.
From what I've read and seen Cuba, although extremely poor, does not treat its citizens badly. They get free education and health care, and in fact they produce a lot of doctors which work across South and Central America.
It looks to me like you've fallen for the anti-Red propaganda which was used during the Cold War to justify US "action" against Cuba, but which is sadly outdated today.
Re:I have a question for Americans.. (Score:2)
Censorship in China (Score:4)
Vanity in Hollywood!
Pot in Amsterdam!
Greed on Wall Street!
Mounties in Canada!
/. : News for Shut-ins. Stuff that's obvious.
As a side note... (Score:2)
It is good to point out that American Companies operating in China will provide better working conditions. This will lead to competition and overall an improvement in human treatment. American Companies not treating workers properly will face trouble back home. Still, I fear the prospect of China doing an about face onece they get into the WTO and MFN permanent status. Once either of these is granted then taking them away will be a political nightmare.
Companies like Levi and General Motors are poised to start operations, but who is to say that later in the near term future China develops their own facilities for manufacturing these goods and either kicks the US company out or the government works against them. It could be as simple as the Chinese government declaring that workers who work for real Chinese companies are more patriotic than those who don't or implementing a special tax/levy.
We are essentially giving up much of out leverage over their economy in hops that they will follow through on their end.
Re:I have a question for Americans.. (Score:2)
Re:I have a question for Americans.. (Score:4)
Molog
So Linus, what are we doing tonight?
The Dealings with China (Score:3)
Forewarning, this is all IMHO and I don't have any facts to back it up, however these are some conclusions myself and others who were talking about this have came to...
First of all, the reason why the US politics is so involved with China:
The Clinton Administration recieved large amounts of funding from China during (the early part?) of his campain. Now after denying this as an influence, China has a large influence on the Presidents reputation and standing. Blackmail is a possibility. Another could be the alleged rumors of Clintions involvment with communism and his views on it. I know not what these are, but perhaps its something he believes in and is working toward. Or I could just be talking out of my ass.
China, while not nessicarily a *rich* country overall, does have some wealth, at least in its government. A highly contraverial possiblity is that while we may not like/agree with china, we do have the possiblity to make money off of these deals....though I believe that it would cost us more in the long run
Censorship:
What about it...they're a comunist country, they control the media just as business controls ours (USA). Our governemt is influenced by other governments and business and in a since is just another big business. With enough money, you can make damn near anything happen....
Sorry if I went really OT
and don't flame me for my spelling i know it sucks.
Re:Difference (Score:3)
Disney's lawyers may snarl at ABC, and get a story changed or rewritten. After a few years of this nonsence, ABC may succumb to a sort of "Stockholm Syndrome" and instinctively self censor.
As more and more news media companies get swallowed up by large conglomerates, this self censorship will bocome the rule and not the exception.
The contribution of independence to a press's integrity should not be underestimated. Of course, independence is no guarentee of accurate reporting, but that's another story.
Glass houses (Score:4)
As a person with Hispanic and Asian roots it is doubly difficult to condemn other countries when ideals of freedom, the basis for the Constitution, are being trampled locally.
Even something as simple and innocent as a nude photograph can be prohibited here. Because of a vocal minority, a black & white nude photograph was censored from a local high school art show. Not long ago, a nude, non-erotic sculpture was also censored. Though I respect the right of a school administrator to maintain order, at what point is it crossing the line to some nightmarish Orwellian vision?
As much as I despise censorship, it is somewhat disingenuous to decry foreign violations when we (at least in Miami) are as guilty.
Re:Difference (Score:2)
They defend this as not being "censorship", but as preventing the Chinese people from becoming bored by too many films that are too similar. Granting Favored Nation status would boost this number to 20 films a year, so Hollywood is all in favor.
It seems like a short step for governments to fall into believing that they know what is best for the people they "represent", and to start filtering what people have access to. They even belive that this regulation is a good thing for us and for them too.
I'll bet they feel misunderstood by the resultant criticism.
U.S. Embargoed Countries (Score:4)
Albania, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Bulgaria, Cambodia, China (PRC), Cuba, Estonia, Georgia, Iran, Iraq, Kyrgyzstan, Laos, Latvia, Libya, Lithuania, Macao (Macau), Moldova, North Korea, Romania, Russia, Syria, Sudan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Yugoslavia (Serbia), Ukraine, Uzbekistan, Vietnam
If he were to publish this article... (Score:2)
Here ya go. [worldnetdaily.com]
--
Re:LOL! Errm, you are joking, right? (Score:2)
Did you read my post? As you even included in your post, I said that Cuba's only danger was being used by the Russians as a staging ground for a Cold War conflict, which is what happened during the Cuban missile crisis. Now that there is no Communist Russia anymore I don't think Cuba poses much of a threat to the country with the largest military in the world does it?
China regularly filters out foreign news sites (Score:3)
Re:Difference (Score:5)
if it had been an american corporation pissed off at a small american website, meanwhile, it would be a lot more drawn out. The small website would have had to deal with either a crippling "settlement", or legal bills costing thousands and thousands of dollars stretching years into the future with no determinate end to the hassle, except that it will more than likely end with the small website running out of money to pay for the legal bills because the corporation is doing nothing but stall tactics for the sole purpose of making the small website run out of money to pay for the legal bills, finally giving up and entering a crippling "settlement", and probably quietly going out of business a month later.
On the other hand, there's a good chance the people running the small american website would become instant celebrities, getting posted on Slashdot [meaning they get some pretty huge exposure from the whole thing, and probably a lot of banner ad hits as they get slashdotted]. If they get lucky, they may even get an offer to have the legal bills handled by the ACLU, and if they get really really lucky (or if the small website [etoy.com] is really impressive and the large corporation [etoys.com] is really hypocritical) they may even get a benefit album [negativland.com] or hundreds of people mirroring their information.
At any rate, unless the small american website slips underneath everyone's radar (which does happen, a LOT, and in which case the small website is simply fucked over) the information the corporation doesn't want to let out will get a LOT of attention that it wouldn't have gotten otherwise.
Meanwhile in China if you say something to piss off the government you have nothing protecting you. No one will help you, no one will organize massive campaigns in your name, slashdot will not notice your existence unless there is some kind of major vote in the american congress that day or your company uses linux or something, and you will simply become another victim of the government very, very quietly, with no outcry or notice because, hey, these things happen every day, no one is paying attention, and what's the use of protest anyway? it's not like you're going to change anything. [aimnet.com]
You decide who's better off.
Throwing them a bone (Score:2)
Possibly off-topic but I was thinking about the trade status thing. What if the whole normalization of trade relations was just a setup for a formal recognition of Taiwan?
Re:You're absolutely right... (Score:2)
In my opinion, it makes sense to try to open limited trade with Cuba and to treat China with more caution.
It doesn't look like communism in the Cuban model or any model for that matter will survive Castro. Castro himself is old and not particularly well, although he's survived enough CIA assassination attempts to get into Ripley's.
Cuba poses no threat any longer to the U.S. Where its big export - after sugar - used to be troops in foreign lands (Angola), it's now exporting medical students trained in Cuba from other Latin American countries. The time has come to ease the embargo and ease the transition of Cuba to a post-communist society.
One problem with this is the Cuban American community from the 60s, who have carried the hatred of the island politicos and system all these years and passed it to their kids. It's completely understandable, but Cuba is going to change. Very little good came of the revolution, but two things which did were access to education and medical care, and a less racialist society. It would behoove us to help them preserve those modest gains while their economy restructures.
Compare this with China. It's seen as a big honking market, whose masses of still-impoverished people will somehow afford the high-tech gadgets that US businesses want to sell. Are the MFN proponents urging a year-to-year renewal of status? No, they want to lock it in, giving China little incentive to liberalize.
True, the regime can't sit on all information all the time, and digital media make it even harder to do, but this by itself does not create (for example) the alternative society and replacement for communism that developed in parts of E.Europe prior to the collapse of the Soviet Empire.
In other words, permanent MFN status gives China's current gerontocracy no reason to liberalize, and does not necessarily sustain enough real centers of independent decisionmaking to effect liberalization from the bottom. The best course with China is to consider MFN each year, and to make it necessary to renew under Congressional review.
Why don't the larger corporations want this? Because they're the same type of economic actors as the fellow from Shittybank, who in the early 1980s, said of E.Euro communist leaders, "we don't care what kind of system they have, as long as they pay their bills."
Dave
Re:I have a question for Americans.. (Score:2)
Are you saying that greed is good because it's a good motivator, or are you just saying it's a good motivator?
Powerful motivation can lead to some horrible acts. The Chinese don't need greed to change their government, they need guns. [worldnetdaily.com]
--
China's future (Score:3)
The human rights violation issue is irrelevent to our government, money comes first. They put up a small show to make it look like they care, but all they've done is delay what they will inevetably do. Keep in mind the United states government doesn't have a very good track record itself, the only difference is that our government typically uses a few layers of insulation. It could be simple complacency as in the case of Indonesia taking over East Timor (the US didn't care, this was in the 70's, while about 25% of the population was killed if I remember correctly). Or it could be supporting and installing leaders (dictators) and training armies as was done in central America in the 80's, and in Africa as well. Even at home, we see police operating at oppressive levels, especially in the inner city. Keeping your population subverted works differently in a "free", capitalist society: the government needs a few layers of deniability, and you rarely hear about this stuff anyway. I'll bet some readers won't even beleive what I've said, or, not understand how bad it really is.
Anyway, onto the censorship issue. Barring some cyberpunk future where corporations own the landscape, China really could become the next superpower. I can't see the US being able to change enough to maintain the lead technologically and economically. You look at all the bills being passed here (DMCA, etc), and look at how much this will stifle competition and innovation. You can't maintain a lead without these things. US corporations are just unwilling to lose some profits now for long term success.
Of course, China will have a tough go at it since they aren't a very free society. The US isn't much better, there is plenty of indoctrination and censorship used by the press, and a truly free society would be a form of anarchy anyway. Look at what they have going for them though. The largest population in the world, a population that puts education near the top of it's priority list (I mean culturally, I don't know how much the government puts into it percentage wise), and markets that haven't been developed yet. By this last item I mean that they don't have a lot of infrasturcture stuck in current or (especially) past technologies like the US and Japan do. All these things give them a lot of potential. Whether or not China can take a lead sometime in the distant future without some Democratic revolution, I don't know. I think they're the most interesting country to watch in the future.
Re:U.S. Embargoed Countries (Score:2)
That is an interesting list, some make sense and some don't. Not to doubt anything, but what exactly is the source for this?
And are all of these countries embargoed equally? Some of them may be countries we don't send anything to, while others may only be countries that we just don't send dangerous munitions, like Netscape 4.7, to.
Re:I have a question for Americans.. (Score:2)
I agree. However I think it's the Cuba embargo that's bad, not free trading with China.
Suppose your intention is to maximise the speed at which democracy/free speech/human rights reaches China. 30 years of economic stagnation, upheaval and famine did nothing to provoke these things. There is a chance that the creation of people who are sufficiently educated and well-fed might just help things. The point of this article was that, once things like the Internet are available, it's hard for any government to clamp down on information and speech. Condemning China to poverty and technological backwardness will *increase* the Chinese government's control over its population and won't help at all.
OTOH if the intention is to protect American jobs from cheap labour, then embargoes against both Cuba and China are great ideas.
[BTW I'm not claiming that other developed countries are any better]
Re:I have a question for Americans.. (Score:2)
The reason they are different is because Cuba and China are very different countries. For a very long time during the cold war it was very important to play China and Russia against each other. It kept them from creating some kind of global communist power house in asia. Thats why Nixon went to China among other things.
Cuba gets treated differently because its a tiny country that isn't very impressive in world affairs. It makes cigars and little else. It is never going to be a superpower. It does not have 2 billion people to turn into an army. Also American Cuban policy is basically set by the Cuban-American population in Florida. They still want the embargo and the politicians really don't have a good enough reason to piss them off yet. Of course the Elian Gonzalez case may be changing that.
I personally would rather drop the embargo with Cuba before normalizing relations with China. Castro is going to die sometime after all and the US can have much more of a positive influence on Cuba, but I'm not in the US Congress.
Re:I have a question for CmdrTaco (Score:2)
What's the obsession about tech stocks falling? You are so quick to see conflict of interest where it not only doesn't exist, but couldn't exist. Taco and his minions have always been biased. Pro Linux, anti MS, quick to post anything with "nano" in the headline.
I think this story made it through because sometimes the minions feel they can make a difference in the world. They're young, give them some slack. It may be years before feelings of futility and ennui set in. In the meantime, we'll all just have to be patient.