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France Sues U.S. and UK Over Echelon 435

Posted by Hemos from the coming-for-the-money dept.
gaijin|dog writes, "According to this article, the U.S. and UK are to be sued over Echelon. From the article "The British and U.S. governments are to be sued in France after claims that they have spied on French companies, diplomats and Cabinet ministers. French MPs claim to have evidence that the European Airbus consortium lost a Fr35 billion (£3.5 billion) contract in 1995 after its offer was overheard and passed to Boeing." " Now, I'd rate the probablity of actually getting said money at just about the same as, say, Rob and Heather Graham dating,
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France Sues U.S. and UK Over Echelon More

France Sues U.S. and UK Over Echelon

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  • Hypocrites (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    The French DGSE are famous for their industrial espionage. For example [fas.org],

    France and Japan were mentioned above as the leading infiltrators against American firms. France's spy agency, the Direction Generale de la Securite Exterieure (DGSE) , aims its effort at the same U.S. technology that is of interest to the SVR: computers, aerospace, and production tools and processes. The DGSE's specialty is infiltrating spies into U.S. and foreign offices of high-tech U.S. multi-national corporations. In 1993, a French government document listing as worthwhile targets two dozen U.S. companies - including Boeing, IBM, and Texas Instruments, was leaked to newspapers. The French are aggressive. Former CIA director Richard Helms says, "They [the French] have admitted to me in private that they go through the briefcases of visiting businessmen."

    Russia and Japan are not exactly our strongest diplomatic allies. However, France and the United States are military and political allies. Should allies be spying on each other? According to Pierre Marion, director of French intelligence from 1981 to 1982, "Even during the Cold War, getting intelligence in economic, technological, and industrial matters from a country with which you are allied . . . is not incompatible with the fact of being allied." In the post-Cold War era, Marion says, "The competition in terms of technology and commerce and industry is stronger than it was during the Cold War. There should be more emphasis put on that, and on industrial espionage." The French government admits that it directly passes stolen secrets to French-owned corporations. Intelligence on the private sector for the private sector; France, a Western nation with a democratic system of government, has a view of economic intelligence that is the polar opposite of the American stance.

  • You would want tiny antennas (at least in terms of the active elements) and very close range to the target of interception.

    Or long range, still tiny active element and huge, perfectly paraboloid reflector. Telescopes have reflectors up to few meters in diameter, and they have no problems receiving "signals" at the wavelength of hundreds nanometers.

  • There's no way anything like a lawsuit in international court or whatever is going to matter. The US at least tends to ignore international law when it feels like it, and if the suit is actually in France, then there's nothing obligating the defendents to even show up.

    This is what used to be done in an exceedingly classy fashion as the old "international incident." Foreign power spies. You spy back. You catch $FOREIGN_POWER's spy. You make a big deal about it. Scandal ensues, lots of fun for everyone, etc. A lawsuit of any kind is just a prissier version of the same old thing.

    Of course, good may come of this - greater exposure of Echelon is ultimately a good thing for everyone as it keeps the US and its allies a little more honest. Of course, the fact that we're here discussing Echelon means it's been superceded, but it's the idea that counts, eh?

    -- TM, listening in on my Congressman's Phone Sex session on his cell.

  • This is basically to draw publicity to what the US and UK are doing, and I'm all for it in that respect.

    That's quite likely. There is also the possability of going through the EU to get at the U.K. At any rate, everyone spies on everyone else. The 'arrangement' seems to be that as long as the intelligence is not used commercially, everyone (officially/diplomatically) looks the other way. France got caught cheating in the '80s and just wants to make it clear that they're not the only ones cheating (I don't blame them there).

    All told, I'm glad this happened as well. There seems to be a bit of a truth shortage these days.

  • I am a lawyer, but this isn't legal advice. If you need legal
    advice, see an attorney licensed in your jurisdiction.

    French courts simply lack jurisdiction over the U.S. The U.S. has
    absolutely no obligation to appear (and I'd call my congress-critters
    and demand another impeachment if there were a U.S. appearance), and
    would have no ability to enforce any ruling it entered.

    The only way this *possibly* gets heard in a courtroom (at least
    with the U.S. as a party) would be in the U.S. Supreme Court. Even
    then, were a judgment entered, it could not be paid without an
    act of Congress authorizing payment of funds from the Treasury.

    Also, it's been a *long* time since the Court heard a case of
    original jurisdiction (probably since diplomatic immunity was
    established). I'm not sure the current rules of court even
    provide for the situation (I'd have to look them up, and I'm just
    not that interested).

    hawk, esq.

  • French-British History (Score:3)

    by hawk ( 1151 ) <hawk@eyry.org> on Friday February 11, 2000 @06:24AM (#1286599) Journal
    A couple of years ago at a conference, I was relating my summary
    of anglo-french history to a group that included some Europeans.

    Roughly, in the second half of the eleventh centrury, a french
    duke got irritated and took the english crown for himself. He
    still held about a third of France. Over time, this got whittled
    down, and the british sent an army across to reclaim/expand their
    french holdings. Having done so again, they got neglectful, and the
    french holdings again dissipated. Periodically, the brits would send
    an army that would trounce a french army three to four times its own
    size.

    After about 500 years of this, the french finally noticed
    that they had castles to hide in. When the brits came, they simply
    didn't go out and play, and eventually went home due to long supply
    lines. The brits never figured out that since they held the
    entire area except for the castles, that they could build their
    own castles.

    Then came the 20th century, and they discovered that they hated the
    germans more than one another.

    At this point I was interrupted with a sharp, "No we didn't."

    :)

    seems it was merely expedient to fight together for a few years
  • I don't mean to bash the french, but...
    If the quality of their automobiles (internationally regarded as hideous crap eclipsed only by the former eastern bloc) is any indication of their engineering acumen, perhaps the potential client for the aforementioned contract made a *very* smart decision by going Boeing. (ooh! a pun!)
  • Dude, serious engineers decry fly-by wire for everything but military aircraft, where losing a few is a given. Not an option for civilian aircraft, where hundreds could die. Boeing is being very rational and conservative if they are (rightly) maintaining hydraulic control as primary. Ever hear of *bugs*, my friend?
    The 777, I don't know about. You may be right there. If so, 'DOH!'
    As for airframes, I grant you that. (As well as british dominance in race engine building. HUH? 'wretched' a term I once saw describing british auto reliability. Whoda thunkit?) But Europe != france!
    My beef with france is their notoriously Xenophobic, NIH attitude about just about everything. Hell, they actually have what amounts to a ministry of cultural purity!
    You don't grow intellectually thinking like that. As a person, or as a nation.

  • I'd take a French car over American junk any day. Heck, the only country in the world still building cars with solid axles is... USA! That stuff dates from the horse and cart!

    Actually I'd like to see you take your ifs-crap vehicle where i take my solid-axle jeep.

    Use the right technology for the job, and solid-axles work in some places, heavy workloads, rock-crawling, etc...
  • It's easy to sue a foreign government on your home turf - provided you're willing to wave principles of international law like sovereign immunity. If the foreign government doesn't cough up the damages you seize their assets in your country. The US did it with Iran after the shah was deposed. Apart from the embassy and consulates though (which are inviolate) the US doesn't actually have any assets in France. However, under EU law a court order in one member state is easily enforceable in another so maybe France will just seize all those tanks and F16s that the US has on the bases it rents from Germany... Might not be possible under the NATO Status of Forces agreement however.

    Nick

  • > Sometimes, I really feel like killing an american for the pleasure

    Really? What a sweetheart. If you'd care to supply your name and address I'm sure we could find some nice biker-dude to give you an opportunity. But maybe Anonymous Coward describes you better than we thought. Tell you what, next time the Germans decide they like the weather in Paris, we'll let them keep it.
  • > is really a fascist nation

    Well at least we don't tell our citizens they're not allowed to watch too many French movies! There certainly are groups here who tend towards fascism, and fortunately many of us vote against them. There are also groups that tend towards anarchy, and they occasionally get their way too. We're a BIG country with a lot of people, and you can still drive from one end to the other without being bothered. (Unless maybe you're a black man in a nice car. That's another story.)

    > and NOT a true friend of us Europeans

    I really didn't want to bring this up, but this is kind of a funny remark from a guy in a country that tried to take over ALL of Europe. Twice! I have news for you, if we wanted to own Europe we could have done so already.

    > here in Europe it's illegal to spy on the citizens without reasons

    It's illegal to spy on US citizens without reasons here too. We have laws against it, the NSA is NOT allowed to do it and to give the individuals who work there the benefit of the doubt I'm certain most of them take that seriously. We also have the ACLU to vigorously sue the government when they go too far. Too often law enforcement is over-zealous. The FBI and Martin Luther King, for instance, or the LA cops that planted evidence and even shot people. Note they're now on trial. Nothing's perfect, but the fight goes on.

    > dictatorship of total surveillance

    Agreed! Unfortunately, there are many here (as in other countries) who seem to be willing to give up their freedom to catch the "bad guys". If this wasn't being fought everyday by independent journalists, the ACLU, etc etc it would've happened already.

  • WWI was the UK's, France's and Canada's war.

    I'm pretty sure Russia was involved as well... helped lead to nasty things like the Bolshevik Revolution.

  • They may be France's closest allies, but they're also pretty damn powerful enemies. If France tried to go to war with the US and the UK, they'd find the whole might of NATO turned against them. That would be outright suicide.

    No, France can't take that route, and they know it. Frankly, the Airbus thing is probably just an excuse; they know they won't get their money back. What they're trying to do is set a precedent. Open the way for other nations to sue. And hopefully destroy Echelon in the process; knowing the US they'll destroy Echelon rather than hold onto it and destroy their reputation (sad to say, the only thing the U.S. government values more than keeping its power is keeping what little image it has left). This is a ploy to make the US and UK lose face, and I'm all for it if it'll hurt Echelon even a little bit.

    We're just Slashdotters. When all's said and done, there's really nothing we can do about Echelon; we simply don't have the kind of power it takes. France has tons more than we do, but even it can't do much by itself. But if it takes a stand, other nations will too, and the combined power of several large nations can do something about Echelon.

    I could go on for several more paragraphs extolling the guts France is showing by taking this move, but knowing my luck I'd only start a flamewar. So I'll just shut up now.
  • Calling France and the UK allies always makes me laugh. I realise that theoretically we are allies but the English have always hated the French and vice versa. In the last century we ended up on the same side in most conflicts (but don't forget whose missiles the Argentinians were firing at us) and so technically we are allies but old scores run deep.
  • I think it really pisses them off a treat that we keep sinking their navy, even in WW2 when we were supposed to be their allies 8-)
  • I'd say that the Korean War was more of the first step rather than the Vietnamese War.
  • Going back a few years further - I seem to recall that the French government employed government intelligence agencies to help Thomson win a large contract over (IIRC) Phillips during the 80's. At the time that was reported, it wasn't the first time people had heard of such things from them.

  • an enormous (£101) approx $160/year tax on every television set

    Do they still play "Neighbours"? If they do, sounds like a good deal to me. Huh huh.

  • > Actually I'd like to see you take your ifs-crap vehicle where i take > my solid-axle jeep. What would be the point? Here in "Yuurp", we have these neat things called roads. The Romans invented them, I believe.
  • Hey, it's John Wayne!
  • Well, since you're posting as an AC, who knows what you are or where you're from? Or whether you're even the same AC? I'll stand by what I said, though, since no European could have written such drivel as the post I replied to, unless he was trolling.

    s/I'm not either/I am neither/

  • > WWI was the UK's, France's and Canada's war. No it wasn't. WWI marked the USA's entry onto the world stage. American intervention in the war was decisive even before declaration: US gold and credits kept both British and French economies afloat. Without that aid, a compromise peace would have been inevitable, simply because France and Britain could not long continue the war on the own resources. By the way, `Canada' didn't exist in those days, in the sense you seem to mean: it was still part of the British Empire.
  • At last, someone points this out. It is, I think, the real motivation behind this action. A whole lot of Europeans, not just the French government, are sick and tired of Britain acting as America's whore. Of course, the sensible course of action here would be de Gaulle's, but it's too late for that.
  • I think this AC should be moderated up to five, to show the shocking state of American education: the sheer ignorance of the average American youngster when he leaves high school is a far more important issue than all this Hellmouth crap.

  • One word: Countersuit. (Score:3)

    by Apuleius ( 6901 ) on Thursday February 10, 2000 @07:27PM (#1286619) Journal
    France has been engaging in industrial espionage to give French firms an advantage:

    http://www.aci.net/Kalliste/industryespion.pdf

    I really hope the US and UK countersue, because then maybe more info on both issues will be revealed.

  • Re:huh? (Score:2)

    by SEE ( 7681 )
    It's very simple -- France has a decades-long record on spying on the U.S. and U.K., too. You should see the list of warnings about French espionage that U.S. multinationals give to their executives. France has to moderate its reaction to avoid an immoderate response if and when they get caught red-handed.

    Steven E. Ehrbar

  • The reason that France has decidet to bring a civil suit agains UKUSA is simply that the laws here in France seem to protect the individual no-end.
    F.ex if you wreck your car 10 times in a row and no insurance company wants to touch you with a 10 foot pole, there is a special agency that will *force* the insurance company you choose to insure you. (NOT kidding !)
    Bringing a civil suit against UKUSA, in France is a sure-win.
    --
    Why pay for drugs when you can get Linux for free ?
  • So if France DOES get money from the US, does that also mean that Rob gets to date Heather?

    ---
  • Yankees are very quick to denounce France about individual freedoms, but whenever they are TRULY endangered, either by hare-brained governmental schemes (like Echelon), or by big corporations, guess who is the staunchest parangon of individual liberties?
    Certainly not the country who has Babylon-on-the-Potomac for a capital...
    --
    " It's a ligne Maginot [maginot.org]-in-the-sky "
  • There was once a project to build a dish antenna (a damn BIG one) for the NSA that was intended to pick up faint radio signals that were being reflected by THE MOON. I believe this project was cancelled. The engineering problems were myriad to say the least.
    The one I heard about was about a satellite, whose body is as big as a delivery van, with a parabolic antenna that, deployed, is on the order of 30 meters wide, used to intercept russian microwave links leaks.

    The satellite would be on a geostationary orbit. It must have been no mean feat to put that big a thing that high!!!
    --
    " It's a ligne Maginot [maginot.org]-in-the-sky "

  • so maybe France will just seize all those tanks and F16s that the US has on the bases it rents from Germany...
    Why would they bother? Their Rafale and Mirage aircrafts are much better than those flying jitneys...
    --
    " It's a ligne Maginot [maginot.org]-in-the-sky "
  • who knows...her character in Austin Powers went for Mike Myers... maybe she has a thing for TTH's like Rob... Hemos is just jealous..don't see why though, Nitrozac drawing all ripped and all...
  • Airbus is always complaining about spies this and spies that. I think they're just jumping on the eschelon bandwagon.

    Frankly, i've been on an Airbus 310, and I'd rather walk. So, my theory is that they lost the deal when someone thought they could get a better jet, the exact number Airbus offered probably didn't play into it at all.

  • so maybe France will just seize all those tanks and F16s that the US has on the bases it rents from Germany...

    Do you have any idea of what's involved in seizing the equipment of another nation's military base?!?

    Hint: It usually involves blowing things up.

  • I hope the State Department sends the French President a case of California Champagne and an Echelon tape of his mistress's hottest phone calls.

    There is a simple solution to Echelon. Stop sending voice and data over unprotected radio, microwave and satellite links. Even if Echelon was shut down, which I think would be a terrible idea, there are plenty of other countries with SIGINT capabilities.

  • The Sugar Grove Naval Communications Facility near Sugar Grove, West Virginia is an NSA satellite intercept facility. See this web page [fas.org] for the FAS list of the NSA's facilities.
  • In the case of World War I, the Zimmerman telegram laid the foundation for the United State's entry into the war. The sinking of the Lusitania was more of a final straw. British propaganda was a factor, something that backfired on them in later years when Americans learned how they had been lied to.

  • Re:Hypocrites (Score:3)

    by Detritus ( 11846 ) on Thursday February 10, 2000 @08:13PM (#1286632) Homepage
    The French have reached new levels of hypocrisy. US Security Bulletins have been warning Americans about widespread and massive espionage by the DGSE for many, many years. This is like the Menendez brothers asking for a lenient sentence because they are orphans.
  • Politics, people. the French have chosen to create a large public broo-ha. They win just by stateing the facts publicly.
    Politics is like trying to screw a cat in the ass. -- Bukowski
  • It managed to stay out of the war altogether, and at the time was still a feudal nation. Nobody wanted what Russia had, so Germany never bothered fighting them.

    Go read your histoy books again.

    Russia was in the war from day 1. For your info Germans have used almost equal quantities of people and armament on both fronst. The mere difference is that Russians also fought the Austrians and Turkey.

    I could continue but I will restrain. No point to answer to an ignorant prat.

  • "This sort of argument wouldn't surprise me if it came from a socialist country like France."

    Last time I checked, France's name was "the French Republic", not "the People's Republic of France". Also, last time I checked, prices there were set by the market.
  • > hey should follow US & British example conduct
    > air-raids and drop bombs on someone.

    France was as far as I know the second contributor (behind the US) to the air war in Kosovo, and has supplied plenty of ground troops. France has already lost several soldiers in peacekeeping operations in Bosnia.

    Oh, by the way, learn English:
    whinning -> whining
    ungreatful -> ungrateful.
  • I would not be so sure that France would no have no legal ground. Eavesdropping is a felony (article 226-15 of the penal code), and using informations yielded by a felony is a felony (article 321-1). As it was part of an organized scheme, this possibly carries a 10-year sentence and a fine of FRF 5,000,000 (yes, that's about 900 000 US dollars!), with civil penalties on top of that.

    I am not a lawyer, but:

    Airbus could thus perhaps sue Boeing, or its executives, in France for using informations yielded by eavesdropping. If sentenced, bank accounts or properties belonging to Boeing could be seized.

    There is little probability that this would happen. There is a long history of spying between NATO allies, and usually all conflicts are solved by discreet informal agreements between governments.
  • I blow my nose at you, so-called Arthur-King!

    You and all your silly English KNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNniggits!

    I don't want to talk to you no more you empty-headed animal food-trough waterer!

    Now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
    --
  • Maybe if that does happen, it'll help the Tories lead a charge to withdraw altogether.

    I mean, the EU has no loyalty anymore to democratic or republican forms of government... just look at Portugal's treatment of Austria in recent weeks.
  • I half-way agree with you.. but one question:

    Don't you agree that Britons, and Americans, also have an irrational hatred of the French? :-)
  • Well, Rob. I think we all would love to see you "DATING" (but keep us informed, ok? ;).

    But could somebody please tell us non-us-slashdotters who Heather Graham is? (Wasn't she mentioned on South Park as well???).
    ------------------------------

  • Except, obviously they're very bad at what they do. They have an international spy agency setup to intercept phonecalls, etc. in their own country. I think the French are just looking for an excuse as to why their country produces nothing... I'd blame it on socialism, their 35 hour work week, and the fact that they all smell like crap. (last part is a joke of course ;)
  • One word: luck.

    ;-)
  • This is not quite a good time to rant about Boeing's reliability being superior to Airbus'.
    Ask Alaska Airlines guys.

    An other thing : Each and every market lost by Boeing to airbus in the past 15 years (and that's half of the world's sales) have been lost because of the inability of Boeing to adopt reliable fly-by-wire technology. This involves putting hundreds of passenger's lives in the hands of computer software, something I don't want to be done in the country that made Bill Gates a billionnaire.
  • well you're just unaware that there exist technology to produce software that is sufficiently secure to do that job. And that is precisely a European speciality, and something different in European CS courses. This also leads to secure railway signaling system, electronics in car engines and brakes, etc.
  • Airbus will be controlled by a French-German
    dominated company (EADS), after the merger between France's Aerospatiale Matra, Germany's DASA and Spain's CASA in the next few month. FBW technology and generaly the electronics are mainly French, the Germans making the body of the plane. UK's BAe Systems is left with the wings, and I hope with nothing soon, so that they can go and suck Boeing's cock as they have long dreamed of.
  • send la vache !
  • Er, last time France considered the UK as an ally to defend against Germany, who has fled to defend their own country ?
  • >>> the UK is part of the Airbus consortium, so >>> according to the above, France is suing the UK >>> for it's own good. (it's nice of them to care!)

    You're wellcome. The UK's doctrinal resentment of the government promoting any industry (apart from banking, insurance of shipwrecks and other money laundering activities), has already cost them their car industry, now their aeronautics are next in line.
  • so wat ? Phillips is not a US, nor a UK company AFAIK.
  • It does not seem like the UK government gives a sh*t about Airbus. British Airways, which has always been a notorious UK govt puppet, has long refused to buy any Airbus (as El Al did after Albright came to publicly threaten the israelis to stop US aid if they did buy airbus). They are trying to make a transition to an alliance with Boeing, especially since BAe Systems has become a very minor participant in Airbus when the other companies of the consortium have decided to merge.

    I'm personnaly sorry of that and have some nostalgy of the times when the UK and French aeronautics industries could do great things together (e.g. Concorde and many common military programs in the 60s). The Germans are much more difficult to stimulate and do not have more ambition than the British have now for this sector, but at least they feel that there interests are common to ours and not to the US's, and their public opinion is not manipulated by constant insulting anti-French flame by tabloid newspaper.
  • Last time I was in the US I saw this show on Fox that shows tapes taken by employers of their emplyees with hidden cameras.

    So this first class seats stuff is just about Air France trying American-style management and making sure the people that clean the plane do not talk about stealing headsets or newspapers left by the passengers :>
  • produces nothing ?

    Er AFAIK we have the fourth GDP in the world.
  • Oh they did recently when Blair thought that BAe could make a deal with the Germans, bundle Airbus in a company dominated by an Anglo-German conglomerate and sell it to the Americans with a good profit.

    Things has not turned up this way however. BAe Systems is a minor and reluctant participant in Airbus, and while the French and Germans are discussing whether the A3XX should be assembled in Hamburg or Toulouse, all they manage to do is suggesting that it be assembled in the US... Thanks to our British friends for their inimitable sense of humor however.
  • i'm all for this, on the "exposing echelon" front, but given that france is notorious for using its intelligence serivice to benefit french companies, the irony is really killing me here...:)

  • One French official claims that "Frenchelon" intercepts about 2 million messages per month [cfp99.org]. While on an incredibly smaller scale than Echelon's estimated 3 million messages per minute, they're making themselves out to be major hypocrites here.

    Hey, then again, maybe this was the reason for France's stupid effort to force French web sites to use the French language. Much easier to read those intercepted emails that way, eh Jacque?

    Cheers,
    ZicoKnows@hotmail.com

  • Seriously, if France were gone from the UN, who would care? Their purpose there these days seems to be barely anything more than to oppose the U.S. It's not as if I'm even saying that all of the U.S.'s policies were right -- in fact, I disagree with a good deal of its international policies. France, though, seems to put no more deliberation into their UN votes than to see which way the U.S. is leaning and then take the opposite tack.

    Cheers,
    ZicoKnows@hotmail.com

  • Ummm... (Score:2)

    by Zico ( 14255 )

    glwillia@hormel.hotmail.com writes:
    Remove the producer of Spam from my email address to email me

    Sorry, but I don't think that glwillia@com is a valid email address. :)

    Cheers,
    ZicoKnows@hotmail.com

  • Clearly France doesn't actually expect to get any money out of this deal. Negotiations under the table probably went sour, so France has put a small thorn in the side of the U.S. and Britain by drawing mass media attention to Echelon. Projects like Echelon are much less effective, and more despised, when public knowledge of them increases.
  • <I>If the foreign government doesn't cough up the damages you seize their assets in your country. The US did it with Iran after the shah was deposed. Apart from the embassy and consulates though (which are inviolate) the US doesn't actually have any assets in France.</I>

    You're forgetting private property. I don't think it'll happen, but they could theoretically seize property owned by american companies.

    "Espionage ruined an Airbus contract? Lets confiscate some planes, office buildings and factories then..."

    Unlikely in the extreme, but they certainly have ways if they want to. A lawyer might complain that this property isn't owned by the american government which did the spying. This is easily countered by the american people being responsible for electing their own government (it's a democracy after all) and american corporations are largely owned by american people.

    This sort of argument wouldn't surprise me if it came from a socialist country like France. The reason they (probably) won't is the obvious trade war (or worse) that would follow.
  • They may be France's closest allies, but they're also pretty damn powerful enemies. If France tried to go to war with the US and the UK, they'd find the whole might of NATO turned against them. That would be outright suicide. First of all. This won't happen. Why? France is a member of NATO and of the EC. Second, why should they. They formed a joint army with Germany and the Benelux country's. And they have much influence in Europe. The only problem we in the EC have is Great-Britain. They are Fuc&^* things up all of the time.
  • Well the french probably won't have much luck against the USA; except maybe to prove they (the US) is really a fascist nation and NOT a true friend of us Europeans. However I bet the case is different with the UK, who afterall is a member of the EU. I wouldn't be surprised if Echelon violates at least a dozen European laws (Privacy Protection laws immediately spring to mind).

    Remember, folks, here in Europe it's illegal to spy on the citizens without reasons. And just because the US is slowly being transformed into a dictatorship of total surveillance doesn't mean the rest of the world will have to follow.

    Where were you when they took freedom of speech away from the Net?
  • I could use having the government pass eschelon info on to me. I don't have the money for it or nothing, but I'll do yardwork for any government official who's interested in hooking me up. Like I used to date this girl who started cheating on me with this guy who she thought was really deep cause he listened to the cure and shit like that. If I'd had eschelon access, I'd have known about it and wouldn't have had to spend a month wondering why all my friends were snickering at me. I'd also like to know why some girls think you're deep just because you listen to albums containing 72 straight minutes of non-stop whining. I don't know if eschelon could help with that problem, but it's much more of a national security (or personal insecurity at any rate) issue than whether or not people buy planes from boeing. Anyway, if there are NSA staffers or CIA operative who have access to eschelon data and need yardwork done, let me know. I have my own leaf blower.
    --Shoeboy
  • Obviously both countries would very much like to be part of the UN, as they are, already.

    Are you serious? By and large, America isn't exactly thrilled about the UN. The head of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee (Jesse Helms) just gave a speech at the UN, where he said that if the UN tries to push around the US, the US will QUIT the UN. How that would actually work, I'm not sure (with UN headquarters in the US and all). The US currently owes the UN something like $1Billion in back dues. The Republicans in Congress won't pay for "family planning" programs sponsored by the UN, because many of the support abortion.

    Jesse is a putz, but he's got a point. I'm not so sure that I want other countries to have any say over how I live my life and how my government functions. (I wish the US would keep its nose out of other countries, too...)

    -jon

  • Sorry I have to speak on this. You probably think we didn't know about the attack before it happened. The US Government knew about the attack before it happened. Why do you think all of our ships were in dock and all three carriers were out at sea. The government has admitted this (don't have a link but search any engine and you'll find plenty.)

    Roosevelt wanted us in the war but the public was strongly against it. How could he get us into war? Hmmmm.....

    Please don't use the Pearl Harbor attack as an example. Our government wanted in that war and that's why we got in.
  • They'll do it the same way the U.S. sues other countries and foreigners!

    How can they enforce the verdict? Well.. it's not too hard actually..

    Can they *make* the US pay, under threat of prison? Of course not...
    Can they change national policy and not deal with the US until the US pays up? Sure they can.

    Did iCrave-TV obey a US court order, even though they are in Canada? Sure they did.. why? Not because the US troops could march in and get them, but because it seems liket he *proper* thing to do: defend themselves.
  • "Giant antennas" would be quite inefficient at monitoring
    GSM phones, i.e. UHF->microwave devices.

    You would want tiny antennas (at least in terms of
    the active elements) and very close range to the target
    of interception.

    Wave theory. Very important stuff. Most people have NO
    idea how much "stuff" is on the air everywhere.
  • What you say about greenpeace may be true, I have no idea. I have no love for Greenpeace. I take exception with the idea that it was only greenpeace that was against french nuke testing. That's a fallacy of composition designed to get France off the hook, because Greenpeace is a flaky organization lots of people love to hate. It's not just greenpeace that was upset about the French in the South Pacific. Nobody wanted the French down there.

    Some background:

    France is in Europe. It was setting off bombs on the other side of the world. Imagine the outcry if China wanted to set off nukes in the French countryside. The French just didn't care that this part of the world might not like having nukes set off. There is no need for empathy, we are French.

    So, how does France deal with this touchy situation?

    French agents went in and blew up a civilian ship in New Zealand. Saying it was Greenpeace, and the Americans, and they deserved it for messing with France does not make it okay.

    As to Greenpeace not sending protesters into the interior of communist China prior to secret nuclear tests ... do you see why that might be difficult to organize?
  • "You don't frighten us, English pig-dogs! ---Go and boil your bottoms, sons of a silly person. I blow my nose at you, so-called Arthur-king, you and all your silly English knnnniggets. Thppppt!"
  • ... is a European consortium, not a French company.
  • ...maintaining hydraulic control. They are touting it as their new flagship. Just as Airbus is with the A340s... Boeing just isn't doing as well as Airbus...

    ... which is a consortium, not a French company.

  • Allies?
    in WW2?
    Don't make me laugh.

  • Obviously you cannot sue the United States before any human court in this world. France can sue the United Kingdom in a court of the European Union, but it cannot sue the United States. The United Nations have been able to set up tribunals, notably to judge war crimes such as those that were committed in Bosnia, but it evidently cannot judge a state that is permanent member of the security council.

    Only one court has been able to judge and condemn the United States, and that is the Russell Tribunal, during the Vietnam War. The Tribunal had no authority other than moral, but it did have very much prestige, and its role in bringing out fact to the public eye was of great importance.

    This story about France sueing the US and the UK is a farce. However, it may be possible for a small group of individuals with enough prestige (say, the Electronic Frontier Foundation [eff.org]) to set up a special tribunal to judge that sort of matters. The tribunal's verdicts would not lead to any kind of punishment, but they would lead to public awareness, which is, after all, the most important thing.

  • By the way, `Canada' didn't exist in those days, in the sense you seem to mean: it was still part of the British Empire.

    Actually, Canada was independant of both England and France in the late 1800's.

    You're probably thinking of Newfoundland, where I live, which didn't join Canada until the late 1940's. We (Newfoundland) fought in the wars under Britain. The rest of Canada fought in the same way that a little brother helps out an older brother (sorry, can't think of a better analogy than that right now).

  • huh? (Score:2)

    by Foogle ( 35117 )
    Am I missing something here? Doesn't it seem strange that, after finding out two of their closest allies have been spying on them, France decides to sue over civil matters? Sounds like they're taking it pretty damned well.

    -----------

    "You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."

  • corporations generally don't have tanks

    More fundamentally, all the evils generally ascribed to corporations rely upon government as a facilitator (e.g. to take the most recent example described on /., abuse of copyright law requires the government to go along with the abusive interpretation and enforce it). On the other hand, the evils of government do not rely on corporations at all; some of the most evil governments in history did not allow the existence of private capital at all.

    Hence, the root of the problem is at the government level.
    /.

  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • >I can kick the ass of very few people ... like France

    Err ... France certainly has a more powerful army than the UK. It probably can't kick the asses of the USA, Russia or China but anybody else is fair game.

    But you're right about ass-kicking not getting money back. The UK, at least, can be sued through the European Court and would probably have to pay up if found guilty. Although there is a world court, the chances of getting the US to cough up are negligable.
  • All I can say is I'm glad to see someone with some power pissed off over Echelon. Now, if only this will help our attempts to control the NSA's crap here at home.

    The article did not post what the French want? Hopefully, they want damages and the shutdown of Echelon.. and don't just want in on the deal.. :)

    One thing I noticed:

    Yesterday he said that he would bring an action on behalf of French civil liberty groups.

    Actually, this makes it sound like it is not France suing the US and UK, but just French civil liberties groups. Can anyone clear this up?

    Jeff
  • Citroen spawned the humble, yet quite fantastic 2CV. One of its design specifications was that a farmer should be able to drive it over a bumpy, sandy path with a box of eggs, without a single egg breaking..they're pretty neat things :)

    //rdj
  • Am I missing something here? Doesn't it seem strange that, after finding out two of their closest allies have been spying on them, France decides to sue over civil matters? Sounds like they're taking it pretty damned well.

    Every nation spies on its allies. While this doesn't scale well to personal relations, you need to know what they're doing so you know that they *are* still your allies. This Is Not something that the U.S. just invented ten years ago.

  • Overheard in a hallway at Pershing Field:

    Suit #1: I wonder if France has any of those faulty Minuteman II's left. You know the ones we sold them in the 80's? I wonder what would happen if someone inadvertantly detonated a few in their tubes.

    Suit #2: Naw, too messy, what with the fallout and all. Remember the stuff we got from Mitterand's Christmas party? The infrared picture of Maggie Thatcher and old Frankie on the Presidential desk?

    Suit #1: Too old! A smear campaign against former heads of state is pointless, and the Brits would get pissy too. Got any embarrasing details on this French lawyer?

    Suit #2: Let's see.. He had an extramarital affair with his daughter's roommate, we've got their phone sex tapes. He's got a 1000 franc a week coke habit too!

    Suit #1: Think we could con the CIA into putting some added value into his dope, like they did for us with that Mexican fellow?

    Suit #2: Not since the FBI busted their Columbian agent, Escobar. Goddamn Justice has been stepping all over their toes!

    Suit #1: Oh well. Time to get back to watching that surveillance camera in Natalie Portman's bathroom. See if you can get some wet-work Rangers on this one. Hit him on the limey side of the channel, eh? Mabye we can use that IRA bit one more time...

  • Hey now! I'm from the US and we are all retarded red-neck idiots! But that doesn't mean you need to call us that to our faces!! You, you, you turd-vacuum! You, you unwashed haggis eating frog lover!

    Can't we all just get along?

    Just because there is a distasteful troll product of the US public school system in here doesn't mean you need to insult me by proxy as well.

  • P-145 documents (Score:3)

    by jesser ( 77961 ) on Thursday February 10, 2000 @07:52PM (#1286731) Homepage Journal
    Codenamed P-415 Echelon, the world's most powerful electronic spy system was revealed in declassified US National Security Agency documents published on the Internet, and is capable of intercepting telephone conversations, faxes and e-mails.

    Has anyone managed to find these documents?

    I couldn't find anything mentioning echelon on nsa's public information releases [nsa.gov] or their list of "high-interest items" [nsa.gov].

    I found a few sites mentioning echelon and P-415, though. This one [mcmail.com] mentions P-145 as being around for at least a decade. That site doesn't seem to be an unbiased source, though, because its homepage links to things like this rant [apc.org] about echelon with a really big font.

    This [loyola.edu] is another site that mentions P-145 and mobile phone monitoring. It contains a document called "An Appraisal of the Technologies of Political Control" [loyola.edu], a long document which mentions echelon and discusses agreements among various countries regarding sharing of information obtained through echelon-like projects.

    --

  • There is a World court, but since international news coverage is very weak in the US, you never hear about it. They've ruled against the US before (i'm tired, don't have any proof or issues on me) but they really have no power over the US, which is the main point. The same thing goes for the UN. Nobody f*cks with the US, for obvious reasons.

    This is basically to draw publicity to what the US and UK are doing, and I'm all for it in that respect.
  • Give us the grail or we shall take your castle by force!
  • I don't understand this. Allies have been spying on one another for hundreds of years, if not longer.

    Just read The Puzzle Palace, there are many documented cases, and our allies know it, so what's the big deal? They do the same thing.

    Occasionally there are prices to be paid for such actions. In the late 1960's Israel attacked one of our intelligence gathering ships when they realized we were probably listening to them. Dozens of americans were killed and it was essentially buried.

    We go to amazing lengths in our SIGINT (signals intelligence) efforts.

    There was once a project to build a dish antenna (a damn BIG one) for the NSA that was intended to pick up faint radio signals that were being reflected by THE MOON. I believe this project was cancelled. The engineering problems were myriad to say the least.

  • Did you read the article? They're suing because they think Airbus lost a few billion francs to Boeing because the US gave Boeing information about Airbus's bidding strategy that had been obtained through echelon.

    Yes, I read it. THE PUZZLE PALACE also documents examples where american intelligence gathering agencies used data they had gathered to help american corporations.

    My point was not to refute the article, but to question the SURPRISE that everyone up here seems to be showing about this.

    It's been happening a long time, and their intelligence agencies are helping their corporations also.

    I'm not agreeing with the practice, just talking about it.

    Our intelligence agencies kill people too. We tried to kill Castro. Face it, deal with it, get over it, move on.

    It's going to continue to happen. Don't be shocked next time.

    :-)

  • Come on, let's use the UN International court. It is hysterical. US charged with violating Cuba's soveirgnty (Bay of Pigs), convicted, US ignores.

    I think we were convicted for one or two other covert deals in the 80s.

    It rocks when the US is convicted and ignores the trial.

    Note: this is sarcasm, not a troll

    There is no body that can convict the US Gov't, save the US Court system (to give financial awards out) and France can hardly sue the US for International espionage.

    This is silly. Come on France, play the cloak and dagger game. When you catch them, make a big stink of it, announce a boycott, trade sanctions, and pull your ambassador.

    Oh wait, if they try for trade sanctions, the WTO can overturn them. If they violate that, then everyone gets to counter embargo within the WTO, kick France out, our whatever they want.

    Let's see an International incident over this stupid project.

    GO GLOBALIZATION!
  • Am I missing something here? Doesn't it seem strange that, after finding out two of their closest allies have been spying on them, France decides to sue over civil matters?

    You probably are missing something. This day and age, countries don't just go to war with each other (well, not Western countries, anyway.) Unlike the political situations of a century ago, every army is not stocked with a bunch of 16 year olds with muskets. France going to war with the UK or US would be literally suicide. (Not to mention how NATO would react.) No, nowadays political matters in civilized countries can (and should IMO) be settled diplomatically. If you found out your best friend was spying on you and caused you to lose money, would you kick his ass, or sue him for the money? I'd do the latter, because a) I can kick the ass of very few people (I'm like France) and b) kicking his ass doesn't get my money back.

    On a side note, does anyone know how lawsuits between governments are handled? I've never heard of one before. Is this a UN matter?

  • This is basically to draw publicity to what the US and UK are doing, and I'm all for it in that respect.

    I agree. I think the nature of Echelon must be made public knowledge, or there must at least be public knowledge of its existence. I don't particularly care about the outcome of the lawsuit; hopefully it will generate enough media attention to get the public aware of what's going on. I'm interested in learning more about the World Court. is it a UN body? An internation treaty somewhere?

  • OK, I'm replying to my own post. For those interested in how the World Court works, I did a little poking around on Yahoo. It's really called the International Court of Justice [icj-cij.org], and is the principal judicial "organ" of the UN. This pretty much sums it up:

    The Court has a dual role: to settle in accordance with international law the legal disputes submitted to it by States, and to give advisory opinions on legal questions referred to it by duly authorized international organs and agencies.

    Seems to me that it's pretty similar to the US Supreme Court in a lot of respects. Since the ICJ is really a part of the UN, it also seems to me that they wouldn't exercise too much control over the US as far as enforcement goes; if the US is ruled against it would mean the only way they would have to pay is willingly, as it would be nearly impossible to start sanctions or military actions against the US.

    For a basic summery, see their Court at a Glance [icj-cij.org] document.


  • I don't think it's about spying and money, but that Europe is fed with US being an arrogant
    'bastard' ignoring and forcing forreing government to go 'The American Way'.

    1) US ignores global warming. US just pis on the agreements made in Rio and Kyoto. Ignoring the fact that their largest state, Alaska, is suffering severely from global warming.

    2) Forcing genetic engineered food down our throut, even though there is no evidence that it's safe for humans and environment. Actually UK have had an increase of 50% of people who is allergic to soya, after the introduction of genetic modified soya.

    3) Forcing very strict encryption- and data-protectionlaws. Thanks to the US it's now illegal in Denmark to make backup-copies. Hey, it's even 'illegal' to surf the web (yeah, really stupid law, but apparently the pressure was so strung that the law needed to be rushed through).

    3) Spying on everyboddy. Echelon have been a hot subject i Europe. Everyboddy have heard about it and noboddy could prove it's existence until recently.

    That was the last straw, and the Airbus-issue (eg. this is NOT france vs. US/UK, but Europe vs. US/UK) is just a welcome 'excuse' to tell US to stop bullying contries around.

    Bjarne

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