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Government Music

New Senate Bill Could Force Ticket Sellers To Disclose Their Fees Upfront (rollingstone.com) 115

Posted by BeauHD from the enough-is-enough dept.
schwit1 shares a report from Rolling Stone: It was a busy day for the live music industry in Washington [on Wednesday] as senators introduced multiple pieces of legislation aimed at improving transparency and competition in ticketing. One of the most common complaints among music fans in a long list of gripes about the modern ticketing industry is the hidden fees that get tacked on at the very end of a purchase, adding a deceptive extra costs customers won't even see until they've already selected their seats based on a different price. The Transparency in Charges for Key Events Ticketing, or TICKET Act, could end that annoyance. Introduced on Tuesday by U.S. Commerce Committee Chair Maria Cantwell (D-Wash) and committee ranking member Ted Cruz (R-Texas), the bill, if passed, would require ticket sellers for concerts and sporting events to disclose the total price of a ticket including fees right away. Fees themselves can be a significant addition for concert tickets, usually adding a 20 to 30-percent extra charge on tickets but sometimes well exceeding that. Joe Biden pushed for a reform on "junk fees" earlier this year.

While passing the new legislation wouldn't stop the actual fees themselves, it would certainly be a step forward in making the business more transparent for consumers. While the bill would pass all-in prices on a federal level, some states like New York already enacted the policy. "Right now, one company is leveraging its power to lock venues into exclusive contracts that last up to ten years, ensuring there is no room for potential competitors to get their foot in the door," Klobuchar said, seemingly referencing Ticketmaster but not mentioning it by name. "Without competition to incentivize better services and fair prices, we all suffer the consequences. The Unlock Ticketing Markets Act would help consumers, artists, and independent venue operators alike by making sure primary ticketing companies face pressure to innovate and improve."
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New Senate Bill Could Force Ticket Sellers To Disclose Their Fees Upfront More

New Senate Bill Could Force Ticket Sellers To Disclose Their Fees Upfront

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  • The "out the door price" should be the standard (Score:5, Insightful)

    by OffTheLip ( 636691 ) on Friday April 28, 2023 @06:36AM (#63482676)
    and it should not be limited to tickets. Hotels, automobiles, etc all hide the details at the beginning. Final price is what we want.

    • Final price ...

      Other countries have laws demanding the total cost and taxes due be put in the advert and not be contradicted by the small print.

      • Some countries even require that the shelf price be the out the door price, with the taxes included, while others actually prohibit it. Here in the US, the laws prohibiting out the door prices on price tags are state laws. It's hard for me to imagine why you would do that.

        • Re:The "out the door price" should be the standard (Score:5, Interesting)

          by gillbates ( 106458 ) on Friday April 28, 2023 @08:23AM (#63482792) Homepage Journal

          Perhaps Tennessee sheds some light on the situation: Republicans made it illegal for the gas station to disclose how much of the price of gas was paid in taxes.

          I suspect there's the same dynamic at work with the prohibition of out-the-door prices. Politicians don't want you to think about how much you're actually paying in taxes. Most people won't do the percentage math in their head and have simply gotten used to the final bill being a bit more than the mathematical sum of the prices. In Tennessee, for example, you need a ten, and two one dollar bills to buy two five dollar items.

          • I'm sure if gas stations wanted to waste their money in court, that law would get thrown out with the 1st amendment. You can require the final price be what's advertised, but you can't limit their speech about how the price is calculated.

        • Re:The "out the door price" should be the standard (Score:5, Insightful)

          by Geoffrey.landis ( 926948 ) on Friday April 28, 2023 @08:49AM (#63482826) Homepage

          Here in the US, the laws prohibiting out the door prices on price tags are state laws. It's hard for me to imagine why you would do that.

          Libertarians.

          Libertarians wanted to ensure that the tax gets explicitly stated in every single transaction, rather than hidden in the overall price. They think that this will eventually result in a taxpayer revolt which will lead to the libertarian paradise, where goverments have no power and corporations run everything.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by jp10558 ( 748604 )

            I mean, it kind of seems obvious that we want ads / shelf prices to be what you pay at the counter or at checkout, but we want our "cart view" and receipt / invoice to detail the line items so we can know if we're looking at $20 shipping on that $5 item and decide we want to look for a better deal on shipping or just go pick it up in person etc...

            And some of this is more wanting smarter / better versions of like expedia where you want to specify that you want to fly on day X and will want 2 checked bags, to

          • And it works. Elsewhere sales/vat can be 30% or more. US doesn't have that problem. Keeping that tax visible is keeping it front of mind. Meanwhile, income tax which you only see once a year is way higher...

          • Libertarians wanted to ensure that the tax gets explicitly stated in every single transaction, rather than hidden in the overall price. They think that this will eventually result in a taxpayer revolt which will lead to the libertarian paradise, where goverments have no power and corporations run everything.

            Libertarians are less than 2% of the voting public.

          • Libertarians don't have the political power to enforce their will outside of the extent to which it overlaps with other larger parties who can pass laws. If what you suggest were true, you'd have to wonder why they stopped at price tags or why this hasn't been changed by any of the larger parties who tend not to agree with libertarian policy or goals.

            • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

              by Darinbob ( 1142669 )

              Libertarians also get mischaracterized a lot. They're not pro-corporations, and not necessarily all anti-tax. They're opposed to corporations getting too much power just the same as with governments. The commonality among them is to have less government control over social and economic lives. But also they don't mean zero government, the party does acknowledge that there is a necessary level of government to perform vital services and defense.

              There is a trend by some Republicans to claim that they're lib

              • Libertarians also get mischaracterized a lot.

                I have many friends and friends-of-friends who are libertarians and it's fun to watch them debate our liberal friends. The debate itself is boring and predictable because the libertarians are united in all of the things that they don't want government to do. The real fun starts when the groups disband and the libertarians talk amongst themselves about what they do want. At this point, you'll hear many wildly different solutions which often contain far more va

                • Re: (Score:2)

                  by tragedy ( 27079 )

                  That's the problem with libertarianism as a philosophy. It's incomplete and and utopian. In a lot of ways most people who identify as libertarian have identified real problems with the world, but do not have any practical solutions. So they tend to subscribe to the "tear it all down" approach without much thought about how things are actually supposed to work after.
                  A lot of their ideas are visible in fictional works by authors like Ayn Rand or Robert Heinlein. Their fiction does tend to identify legitimate

                  • You will never convince me that things don't run exactly how the people in charge WANT them to run. They say, oh yeah these are problems and if you vote for ME, I'll fix them for you. Except they don't fix them and then they roll out the same song prior to next election. Over and over again.

                    The thing is, the people in charge don't actually see the "problems" as problems at all. They just see those "problems" as ways to get re-elected and continue doing as those in charge tell them to do.

                    • Re: (Score:2)

                      by tragedy ( 27079 )

                      There is definitely an element of truth to what you're saying as there are clearly a lot of people in power with no real interest in improving things, but you're still only describing opportunists. Have you looked at the people in charge? These are not masterminds playing 4-dimensional chess. Things don't run exactly as they want them to run, they move into power and try to position themselves to personal advantage within the system.

                    • Call me crazy but I believe the people actually in charge are the filthy rich whos names we mostly don't even know. The kind of people attending Davos and such. They are not elected but they certainly control the elected.

                    • Re: (Score:2)

                      by tragedy ( 27079 )

                      To a degree, sure, but this is not some formal arrangement or structured hierarchy. I'm going to use the term evil and that may seem extreme, but one of the most important things to remember about evil is that it is usually banal. Evil is mostly characterized as simply excessive self-interest to the point where you flagrantly sacrifice the well-being of others. There can be a lot of argument about that definition (immediately, for example I can see that there's an issue because people may be selflessly evil

          • If only there was a way they could show us the out the door price for convenience AND the portions going to the store and to the government... like maybe having the pumps display that info at the end of the transactions. I understand the hardship that might cause for those trying to listen to whatever Maria Menounos is trying to tell us right then, but it just might be worth it. ;)

          • "Libertarians wanted to ensure that the tax gets explicitly stated in every single transaction, rather than hidden in the overall price. "

            The question of whether the tax is explicitly is orthogonal to the question of whether it is included in the total price advertised or on the price tag. The sale receipts in places where they include the VAT/sales tax in the price tag list the portion that is tax just the same as they do in places where the VAT/sales tax is not included in the price tag.

            The price tag with

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by aitikin ( 909209 )

          Here in the US, the laws prohibiting out the door prices on price tags are state laws. It's hard for me to imagine why you would do that.

          I don't think it's that simple. Outside NOMAD (New Hampshire, Oregon, Montana, Alaska [although this one kinda doesn't count as there are local jurisdictions], and Delaware; the states with no state sales tax), there are many places where it's not state level calculation, but tax jurisdiction calculation.

          I don't think that that should prohibit or even allow sellers to hide fees and taxes, but it does change it from, "laws prohibiting out the door prices on price tags are state laws," to potentially tax jur

      • I think it's important to have people realize how taxes affect their purchase.

        If everyone had to send an income tax check at the end of the year instead of it coming out of their paycheck, people would be a lot more interested in taxes.

        • Re: (Score:3)

          by _merlin ( 160982 )

          If everyone had to send an income tax check at the end of the year instead of it coming out of their paycheck, people would be a lot more interested in taxes.

          That's how it works in Hong Kong: income tax is not automatically deducted, by default you're sent a bill at the end of the year. It doesn't make people any more interested in tax than anywhere else.

          • I think if we tried doing that in the states, a lot of people would be falling behind on their taxes. I like the idea myself and have my taxes setup that I try and break even. I may eventually start claiming 10 just so I can hold onto the money and then cut a check at tax time. I'd surely be better off investing my income tax and then paying the bill then letting them take my money ahead of time without me making any money off that money.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by suutar ( 1860506 )

          While I agree that would tend to make people more pissed about taxes for a little while each year, I feel like it would be on par with daylight savings - nobody likes it, but it's less painful than figuring out how to change it without breaking, well, everything.

      • From what I've heard, other countries are sane.

    • Re:The "out the door price" should be the standard (Score:5, Informative)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 ) on Friday April 28, 2023 @07:19AM (#63482722) Homepage Journal

      The EU did it with airfares. No more "1 Euro flights", they had to give the actual price you pay including all fees, including in advertisements.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by _merlin ( 160982 )

        AFAIK, Australia and EU require bottom-line price to be advertised for phones, flights, cars, hotel stays, etc. these days. Australia used to be plagued with ads for "$1 mobile phones", and unrealistically low advertised prices for cars, or ad for Internet/phone service that didn't mention the locked-in contract term. They now need to list the minimum total.

    • Re:The "out the door price" should be the standard (Score:5, Informative)

      by GuB-42 ( 2483988 ) on Friday April 28, 2023 @09:08AM (#63482878)

      Restaurants too.

      In France, you can expect to pay 15€ for the 15€ menu. No taxes, tips, service fees, items you didn't order, etc..., it is all included. In many other countries, including the US, the bill is always significantly higher than the listed price.

      • You're not expected to tip in the EU.

        • Because it's a stupid system.

          and
          (b) There's nothing to prevent them printing price with tip on the menu, ie. The price you're going to pay when the bill arrives.

          • Because it's a stupid system.

            Well, back in the day when I worked tipped jobs (busboy, server, bartender)...I would definitely argue with you.

            I LOVED working for tips...I was pretty good at schmoozing people and I made waaaaay more than minimum wage at those jobs which really helped when I was in High School through some college grad work.

            You can make a pretty good buck on those jobs, great for beginner jobs AND great for learning how to work with and deal with the public in general.

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by suutar ( 1860506 )

              Nobody's saying it doesn't work out well for the personable folks, on average. But it kinda sucks for the ones who aren't good at schmoozing, and for the ones who get stuck with customers who refuse to tip because it's technically optional, or the ones who use it as a power play ("this is your starting tip. Make me unhappy and it gets smaller"), or the ones who feel like a non-monetary gift is just as good (religious tracts). And for those latter cases (hereafter lumped together as "jerks") most people don'

              • It especially matters where you live. Nobody wants to work in restaurants in the ethnic districts because most customers in those areas don't tip at all.

                Chain restaurants may have standard policies with regards to tips, but cultural standards are not uniform to all locations.

                • It especially matters where you live. Nobody wants to work in restaurants in the ethnic districts because most customers in those areas don't tip at all.

                  I've never lived where there was a real "ethnic" district so to speak...

                  But I will say that working many years in food and bar service really did make you able to read people for how they were going to treat you and tip you.

              • Nobody's saying it doesn't work out well for the personable folks, on average. But it kinda sucks for the ones who aren't good at schmoozing,

                Well, there "are" other jobs for those that aren't suited for tipped jobs, where you do have to have a personality.

                I mean, not everyone has the same gifts and not everyone is qualified for every job, you know?

                So, let's not penalize or take away options because some folks can't cut it, eh?

                and for the ones who get stuck with customers who refuse to tip because it's te

            • Because it's a stupid system.

              Well, back in the day when I worked tipped jobs (busboy, server, bartender)...I would definitely argue with you.

              I LOVED working for tips...I was pretty good at schmoozing people and I made waaaaay more than minimum wage at those jobs which really helped when I was in High School through some college grad work.

              You know the rest of the world can leave money on the plate after they've paid the bill, right?

              And... they often do if the waiter has earned it.

          • Some places here in the Bay Area tried to do away wtih tipping. It would state on the menu that workers were paid a fair wage, at least minimum wage, and service charges were included in the prices. A large number of customers actually complained about this so much that they stopped and went back to having tips. The rationale was that some customers claimed to want to "punish" for bad service (even though rarely the fault of the actual water) and reward good service, even though this rarely happens in pr

            • Abusing service staff is about the only time a typical American gets to feel "in charge" of something and have power over another pleb. Hence, many of them like the tipping idea because they have "power".

              I've always hated tipping but make sure to do so of course. I still don't think it's fair that employers can use it as an excuse to pay workers shit wages nor is it fair that some rando customer having a bad day can screw with your income.

              It's made worse now, because for some odd reason everyone now thinks

      • In France, you can expect to pay 15€ for the 15€ menu

        In the U.S., we don't get charged for using the menu - we just give it back once our order is placed.

      • Restaurants too.

        In France, you can expect to pay 15€ for the 15€ menu. No taxes, tips, service fees, items you didn't order, etc..., it is all included. In many other countries, including the US, the bill is always significantly higher than the listed price.

        My god man, where is the mystery? Where is the intrigue? How am I supposed to even enjoy myself when you have laid bare the raw uncensored details? One shrugs off such vulgar things to bring a bit of couth back in. /s

    • Re:The "out the door price" should be the standard (Score:5, Informative)

      by argStyopa ( 232550 ) on Friday April 28, 2023 @09:46AM (#63482962) Journal

      Sadly, in the US, possibly the most egregious practitioners of this shady bullshit?

      Hospitals.

      Try to find out how much it will cost to have a baseline complication-free vaginal birth - about the most 'standard' of medical events one can imagine - in advance.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by ranton ( 36917 )

        Hospitals will be dragged kicking and screaming to improve price transparency, but Congress needs to keep creating more price transparency laws to force their hands. I have been part of implementing No Surprises Act (NSA) related projects at a health insurance payer, and these changes are expensive to both providers and payers. But they are necessary. And by the time our most recent NSA was finished, maintaining it is not more expensive than what it replaced. So I don't expect this price transparency to mea

      • Sadly, in the US, possibly the most egregious practitioners of this shady bullshit?

        Hospitals.

        Try to find out how much it will cost to have a baseline complication-free vaginal birth - about the most 'standard' of medical events one can imagine - in advance.

        Lol. Try to figure out what the costs are for anything are. A single test was going to cost me something like $2500-5000 or until I hit my deductible limit with insurance OR I could pay $250 out of pocket. God herself couldn’t apply sane reason to that.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by suutar ( 1860506 )

          It's like body shops - gouging the insurance company is where the money is, even after said insurance company has gotten a "40% discount from standard pricing". It's perfectly rational behavior; it just sucks for the actual customers who have to pay the deductible.

    • Then you have to be a smart enough consumer to actually look for it. Everybody knows by now that the price isn't final until it's final. You can't let your guard down until then. And before you say "I shouldn't have to be guarded about it" if you care about what you're getting, you have to be guarded anyway. The law can't require a seller to give you a "good deal" for what you're buying. Only you can determine whether or not the deal is good.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by tragedy ( 27079 )

        Yep. That's all that's needed. For people to be "smart consumers" when facing hospital costs. Doesn't matter if they're severely anemic, or in crippling pain, or delirious, or unconscious or outright comatose, or if they just have a figurative sword of Damocles hanging over the head with death assured if they do not get the procedure soon.
        Now, I am aware that, in many of those cases, simple details on the costs of the procedures would not do the patient much good, because they would not be in any position t

    • and it should not be limited to tickets. Hotels, automobiles, etc all hide the details at the beginning. Final price is what we want.

      This could potentially be hard. I've shopped at stores which base sales tax on my ZIP code instead of the store's physical location. There's also the situation where a business can file paperwork with the government to not pay sales tax.

      I once went to sign my wife up for a local gym for $9.99 / month, just to have it costing over $30 / month (included a mandatory fee to not raise the price within 2 years).

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by ranton ( 36917 )

        This could potentially be hard. I've shopped at stores which base sales tax on my ZIP code instead of the store's physical location. There's also the situation where a business can file paperwork with the government to not pay sales tax.

        Solving this problem in the US will absolutely require the country to change taxing policy. It is currently too complicated in the US for the level of price transparency you see in other countries. But it is still a worthwhile goal. We just cannot put all the blame on companies.

        • The hell we can't blame the companies. They are the ones that buy the politicians. They typically write the laws themselves.

    • For the Ticketmaster stuff, some of these fees are essentially kickbacks. Ie, you use them exclusively for your venue and then they'll tack on a big fee out of which the venue gets a percentage. There's also the lawsuit in California regarding Ticketmaster anti-competitive behavior (morale: never piss off the Taylor Swift fans).

      I notice on my mom's phone bill that nearly half the cost is in fees. Plus the company (AT&T) still has a brisk business in convincing the elderly to buy upgrades they don't n

    • Don't forget about Airbnb. I'm tired of trying to find services online that appear to be reasonably priced only to find out at checkout that there's fees that are so egregious they look like they're the origin story of the Goatse guy.
  • To not LIE in ads. Yes that is what the requirement is but they ALWAYS find ways to SCREAM THE LIES then rapid fire mumble the truth right at the end of the ad!

    • FTC (Score:2)

      by MobyDisk ( 75490 )

      So then why doesn't the FTC use existing truth in advertising laws to go after them?

      • Because the "truth" is that the "price" isn't the total or even the subtotal, but it is what they call the price. If you call the rest fees, it's not part of the price. Truthfulness doesn't mean not deceptive.

        • FTC is just as bought and paid for as the politicians. A lot of these government heads either come from private industry or go into private industry right after. How can you possibly expect these individuals to stay honest when they are being bribed by the companies they are suppose to be regulating?

    • Some of that is exempted under the legal concept of puffery. I.e. lies so obvious that no reasonable person would believe them, so no harm done. A classic example would be the old Joe Isuzu commercials [youtube.com] with claims like their cars being "faster than a speeding bullet."

  • Lack of competition (Score:3)

    by MobyDisk ( 75490 ) on Friday April 28, 2023 @07:04AM (#63482702) Homepage

    These kinds of practices thrive when there is a lack of competition in the market.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by VMaN ( 164134 )

      Calling something a "market" when there's only one seller is a bit misleading.

      A very simple "advertised price is what you pay" plus "resale of tickets above original price is illegal" may SEEM draconian, but it works very well where I'm from.

      Kick out the rent seekers. They add nothing of value.

      • Considering their market position, we don't even need to wait on congress. There are existing antitrust laws. And the resale market should not be considered competition for obvious reasons.

        "resale of tickets above original price is illegal"

        There is too much case law on this in the US on reselling items. It's yours, you can do what you want with it and I don't think passing a new law alone would change that. A law requiring tickets to be assigned to an individual and be non-transferrable except in specific cases would be much easier. Because then you're

    • Almost like having an unregulated market and rubber stamping every mega merger hurts consumers.

      • It's either merger or bankruptcy when they're able to force exclusivity agreements on all the major venues. I wouldn't worry about the mergers since that's a side effect of having no market left after Ticketmaster is exclusive with the venues with no antitrust law to stop that.

  • ...let this be one thing we can agree on across partisan lines?

  • While they're there they need to make it double-illegal to have to create an "account" with all your personal details before they'll tell you the final price.

  • what about hotels resort fees?

  • If you're able to show the correct price including taxes at check out you can show the correct price on the sticker. The USA is such a bizarre country where somehow you never pay the price shown.

    • That makes pricing a little rough here. Sales taxes vary from city to city, meaning to have consistent pricing you would have to take a hit to advertise the same price the next town over. In fact, you'd have to be careful not to put any pricing in ads that are seen by people outside the area.

      Then there are also little schemes where property owners get free loans to improve their buildings, covered by higher municipal sales taxes. Just a few blocks from me, there's a tiny district where sales tax is an ex

      • No one is taking about billboard ads. The fact you pick an item from a shelf and pay a different price at the counter is utterly braindamaged.

  • More than once i've cancelled a purchase as Ticketmaster has added fees totaling as much or more than the original ticket price. Fuck Ticketmaster/Live Nation

  • Now onwards to the dealerships, ISPs, Cable TV providers, and the asshole vape shop.

  • Upfront or at checkout, it won't make a difference. The person still ultimately decides if they're gonna spend the amount. And with concert tickets you may not like the price of the fees but it's the only way you're seeing your favorite artist. It's still a matter of deciding if you think the price is worth the experience.

  • All prices should be all inclusive. Tip, taxes, fees. Add whatever, but show the final price

  • Everybody wants their cut. It's outrageous. I've seen a "facility fee" tacked on at some events. I think that the price you see is the price you pay and then maybe
    these venues or artists will start working on reducing the middle-men in terms of fees and quantity.
    Don't forget the Alliance insurance if you can't make it.

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