Ask Slashdot: Should I Let My Kids Become American Citizens? 734
An anonymous reader writes "Can you help me decide whether to allow my small daughter and son to become American citizens? I am American and my partner is Swedish. We have both lived in Belgium for many years and have no plans to leave. I became a Belgian citizen some years ago and kept my American citizenship. My partner has both her original Swedish and now Belgian citizenship. We are not married. Instead we have a registered partnership, which is common in northern Europe, confers most of the benefits of marriage, and raises no eyebrows. However, the American government does not recognize such partnerships, so in their eyes I am still single. Generally, children of American citizens abroad automatically become American citizens themselves at birth. But our kids fall under an exception. Male American citizens who live abroad and have children out of wedlock with a non-citizen mother do not automatically transmit citizenship to their children unless they sign an "affidavit of support" promising to support their children until the age of 18. If you don't sign before the child reaches 18, the child is not considered an American citizen. This has been upheld by two Supreme Court rulings (Nguyen v. INS and Flores-Villar v. United States). For legal beagles, the relevant statutes are 8 U.S.C. 1401 and 1409. (Read on below for the rest.)
The kids have Swedish and Belgian citizenship. We could go down to the American consulate and get American citizenship for them any time, but I keep putting off the decision and I am not sure I want to do it at all. Sentimentally I would like the kids to have American citizenship, but there is really only one practical pro to it: American citizenship would allow them to live, work, or study in America more easily, if they choose, when they get older. The cons:
- They would be immediately enmeshed in the U.S. tax bureaucracy, which would require them to file U.S. tax returns for life even if they never set foot in the U.S. This, as I know from experience, is a huge bother, even when you don't owe anything.
- Sometimes they would owe U.S. tax, though, for example for capital gains, unearned income, and in some countries self-employment income.
- My son would have to register for the draft.
- The decision, once made, is difficult to back out of: renouncing one's U.S. citizenship costs $2300 and a lot of paperwork.
- They can easily travel to the US for family visits as Belgian/Swedish citizens.
- There are lots of good universities in Europe. And if they really wanted to study in the U.S., it's not too hard to do as a European.
What do you think I should do? The clock is ticking, and I find it hard to choose between the evil of not being able to be American if they choose, and the evil of unjust, lifelong pursuit by the IRS. Here are two good relevant links.
Yes. What do you lose? But talk to lawyer first. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Yes. What do you lose? But talk to lawyer first (Score:5, Insightful)
They also receive the gift of being obligated to pay US taxes. They will love you for that.
Re:Yes. What do you lose? But talk to lawyer first (Score:5, Informative)
They may not owe US taxes, but they will probably have to file paperwork every year declaring such. Failure to file the paperwork can result in large fines, which are a problem if they ever decide to travel to the US.
Re: (Score:3)
You're not required to file tax returns if you fall below a certain limit or otherwise don't owe taxes. Of course, if you don't file and do owe taxes, you get punished. (And if you don't file, you can still be audited, which is fun if it turns out the IRS owes you six years of refunds)
Re:^^ URBAN LEGEND (Score:4, Interesting)
All right Mr. Pedant, yes, if you qualified to not have to file in the US, then you're probably OK not to file as a non-resident. However, if you're an adult non-resident with any significant source of income, you do have to file, even if that income is below the non-resident exemption (approx $90,000 USD) where you won't owe any income tax. But do note that the US is virtually alone in taxing non-resident citizens.
If you don't make substantially more than $90,000 and only have an income from a job (i.e., not self-employed, own a business, or have substantial investment income), it's not a huge deal beyond having to file a second tax return. Otherwise, it can mean major tax headaches. A friend of mine up here who's also a non-resident US citizen folded his one-man business and took a regular job because the tax benefits to owning an incorporated business in Canada were nullified after the IRS claimed their share (and then some).
The point being, yes, there can be serious tax consequences to having US citizenship if you don't earn your living in the US. I don't foresee renouncing my US citizenship anytime soon, but for a foreign national considering whether to pursue US citizenship, I would advise them to think twice about doing so without a compelling reason.
Re:Yes. What do you lose? But talk to lawyer first (Score:5, Interesting)
It's more than just tax paperwork. There are asset declaration forms to send to Treasury Dept. Failure to file these can result in prison sentences.
The situation is MUCH more complex than just having to do a 1040 like everyone else in the US. Furthermore, there are regulations the US gov. is enacting which affect how international wire transfers are handled by banks, which is forced upon any bank that has a branch in the US. These regs. can cause you to automatically loose "witholding" taxes on transfered amounts, and then have to go through an ordeal to get the money back if it isn't justified by your overall tax picture.
Finally, the US .gov will happily pass new laws that create new reporting obligations that they will do very little to warn people about. Ie., don't expect a highway billboard to warn you of new reporting obligations. So unless you are proactive about determining whether the legal landscape has changed, you may find yourself out of compliance with some new rules that almost no one knows about, where failure to comply entails possible prison sentences.
They are not nice people creating these rules. Conduct yourself under the US global empire accordingly, if you wish to stay out of trouble!
Note that some of these rules get sold to the public by capitalizing on the resentment toward the "1%." But then what actually happens is that it's the normal people who are most at risk of getting penalized since we don't have tax attorneys constantly monitoring the legal landscape, unlike rich people. So once again, if you cheer on the .gov when it claims it's going to "help" you by giving the shaft to "the rich," unless you are an IDIOT you should know damn well that if you go along with it you are being played for a fool, just as it's always been.
Re:Yes. What do you lose? But talk to lawyer first (Score:5, Insightful)
I'd estimate the paperwork (including searching to ensure you are not ignoring legal obligations as a US citizen, occasional accountant/lawyer visits, etc.) to be on order of 20 hours a year. Less many years, some years you could spend 100 hours trying to make certain you are not breaking US law when you buy a house, are self-employed, etc.
Over 80 years, that's 1,600 hours. If you value your leisure time at $50/hours, than consider it to be about $80K worth of hassle to be a U.S. citizen. Add in $20K in lawyer/accountant fees over the years, and you could be looking at a total lifetime cost of about $100K.
Is it worth it? Well, if you're child chooses to work there, then it's easily worth it. But otherwise, probably not.
So, what you really want to decide (and only you can do so), is "Is the life-time option of working in the US worth $100K?"
Re: (Score:3)
It's worse than that.
In practice, you can't invest in foreign mutual funds.
Foreign institutions are required by US authorities to withold 30% of all gains if the client is an american citizen.
That's a major PITA for them, so what they do instead is just deny american citizens from opening an account.
Re:Yes. What do you lose? But talk to lawyer first (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Yes. What do you lose? But talk to lawyer first (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, if they are almost 18, why don't you just let them decide for themselves? Explain the pros and cons, they should be old enough to understand. If you think they lack the maturity to make the decision, then they'll probably be better off without the complexity of filing American tax reports for the rest of their lives. Basically, don't do it unless they understand the consequences and want you to.
There are tax implications (Score:3, Informative)
US citizens residing in foreign countries are still required to pay US Federal Income Tax while abroad, even if they never return. I guess you're paying for the protections the local embassies could theoretically give you, if you don't expatriate and renounce your citizenship in accordance with 8 USC 1481(a)(6).
Re:Why Force Your Children to Live in the Past? (Score:5, Insightful)
no, I agree with jeremiah.
we have failed. we are a failure. some may not see it, but we will implode sooner or later and then, all hell will break loose.
there is NO plan for sustainability, here. we keep spending on wars and hostility and yet we let 'home repairs' go undone. for decades, now, we have done this.
we are the country of 'dumbing down'; we have the worst healthcare system in the world; we let people go homeless if they lose their jobs and can't find a new one quickly enough; we have crime rates that are astronomical; we have half of the country thinking the world is a few thousand years old and that half also denies science whenver possible.
we are no shining example of what a good country is, anymore. our politics are a mess, our spies are ruining WORLD WIDE security for everyone and we are the main cause of this kind of escalation.
don't even get me started on the work environment here. very little maternity leave, no paternity leave, a recent push for no sick time or vacation time (they lump it all together) and we also have the shortest amount of vacation time compared to all the modern countries. our corporations work the workers to death and then dispose of them, IF you can even GET a job in the US (h1b, yes! born here, sorry.)
there are many good things about the US, don't get me wrong. but if you are not already 'stuck' here, I would certainly NOT entertain coming here, moving here, doing business here and certainly not becoming a citizen here!
(of course, I expect to be added to some watchlist given my comments here. and that's yet another reason to avoid the US. you can't trust the US anymore. we don't even follow our own laws uniformly. if you are rich, you have all you want; if you are not rich, then a 2nd set of laws will apply to you).
don't. just don't. we used to be great. maybe we will again in the future, but right now, its a disaster here.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
move to sweden. Have fun with that 75% tax.
This. Exactly This.
Stay in Europe, and you won't be paying US taxes effectively, due to the foreign tax credits. Yes, you'll have to file a tax return every year, but that's not extremely difficult, especially if you don't have to pay any taxes. Taxes are significantly higher in most of Europe.
I faced a more or less similar choice a few years ago. Me and the misses were in the U.S. on a non-immigrant visa, and my wife was about to deliver. We could have chosen to deliver outside of the U.S. and avoid U.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
If you want socialism, maybe you should move to sweden. Have fun with that 75% tax.
And yet Swedes have a higher quality of life than Americans.
There is more to life than just money money money.
Re:Why Force Your Children to Live in the Past? (Score:4)
Re:Why Force Your Children to Live in the Past? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3)
If you want socialism, maybe you should move to sweden. Have fun with that 75% tax.
Yes, it's not like you get a decent education or healthcare or welfare system for your money, the government just blows it all on ludicrously expensive foreign wars.
Oh, wait...
Re: (Score:3)
Head and shouldes above the rest? Yes, if you like to go bankrupt on the simplest procedure.
The USA spends more on health care than most other countries, and gets less "health" in return.
Heck, even the French pay less per person than the US, and gets better results. Don't believe me? Fine, read it and weep [commonwealthfund.org].
Also totally relevant: Breaking Bad could not happen in Europe [wp.com]. Wrap your mind around this one.
Re:Why Force Your Children to Live in the Past? (Score:4, Insightful)
The US is doing quite well compared to Europe; Europe is imploding.
It really isn't.
Re: (Score:3)
You're trapped in a slow motion death spiral of a two party system slowly eroding your constitution. Maybe not failed yet, but most people have noticed the decline.
Re: Yes. What do you lose? But talk to lawyer firs (Score:5, Interesting)
No US tax is not something simple. Here in Switzerland, a U.S. citizenship can be a real burden. I know personally at least 2 ex US citizen who gave up the citizenship just because they were tired of the complex situation they were facing.
Re:Yes. What do you lose? But talk to lawyer first (Score:5, Insightful)
>there are tax issues but they are pretty minor
You're kidding. Have you actually experienced them? The tax issues are mindboggling in their complexity because the US law is written for US institutions and concepts. Trying to work out how arrangements in any of 160 other countries with their own laws and institutions translate into American concepts is a minefield. Something that is simple in your country of residence becomes impossible in another. Accountants who are familar with both local and US tax law don't come cheap so many people spend thousands of dollars a year trying to get it right; all to pay zero tax because there is rarely any tax to be paid. But if you get it wrong the penalties are punitive, all because the US views citizens who have the temerity to live overseas as unpatriotic tax dodgers.
And the benefits? What exactly would those US consulate services be that are so valuable? I can't think of any.
Re:Yes. What do you lose? But talk to lawyer first (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Yes. What do you lose? But talk to lawyer first (Score:4, Insightful)
The USA charges its citizens for evacuation [state.gov], unlike all other countries in the world who also evacuate their citizens from trouble zones ..... for free.
These costs have bankrupted people in the past, leaving them wishing they had not been "rescued".
US citizens are becoming systematically toxic and are treated like shit as a result, especially by the financial system. FATCA is a completely insane law and has resulted in banks around the world terminating accounts and refusing to make loans just because someone is a US citizen or has a green card. And unfortunately what many don't realise is you cannot get out of US citizenship just by paying a few thousand dollars as the summary suggests. There is a crippling exit tax that forces you to pay tax on the assumption you just sold all your assets. It's a form of capital control, except one you cannot escape from due to the long arm of the US government. Even better, USA can decide that the citizenship revocation is invalid if they think it was done for tax reasons. They can just keep forcing you to pay taxes forever, if they want to. It's basically modern slavery.
My advice to the story submitter - don't do it!!. US citizenship is already dramatically worse than citizenships in other civilised countries and it's getting worse every year. In fact it's akin to a form of slavery. US citizens abroad have no functioning representation in Congress and they are routinely exploited as a result, citizenship based taxation being only one example.
Swedish and Belgian citizenship together is a perfect combination! Why would you want anything more?
Re:Yes. What do you lose? But talk to lawyer first (Score:5, Interesting)
It's not even just taxes. The US is so weird about all sorts of things that can bite you. When I got engaged in Iceland, Iceland wanted a certificate from the US proving that I'm not already married - it's a standard requirement here, and most countries have such a certificate. But not the US! In the US you can get a certificate proving that you are married from the state you got married in, but not a certificate proving that you're not married. The only way around it is to find the one sherrif's office in the country who considers a signed affadavit to be sufficient to wed (all of the others disagree).
I would never dream of cursing my kids with US citizenship. How mean could you be to them? I can't bloody wait to get my Icelandic citizenship so that I can formally renounce my US citizenship.
Re: (Score:3)
"The only way around it is to find the one sherrif's office in the country who considers a signed affadavit to be sufficient to wed (all of the others disagree)."
That sounds more like an Icelandic problem than anything. If Iceland doesn't accept another country's designated paperwork then how is that a US problem?
It's a bit like going to a country that doesn't allow gay marriage, trying to arrange a gay marriage, having it refused, and then blaming your home country rather than the country that refused it.
Re:Yes. What do you lose? But talk to lawyer first (Score:5, Informative)
Most countries tax based on residency. You earned money in your country of citizenship, you pay taxes there. You earned money in another country, you work out the taxes over there. Your native country doesn't get involved. This is why Canadians working in the U.S. for part of the year have to be able to document the number of days they stayed there. If they're in the U.S. for more than 183 days, they're considered a U.S. resident and don't owe Canadian taxes.
The U.S. taxes based on residency and citizenship. You earn money anywhere in the world, the IRS expects you to pay U.S. taxes on it if you're a citizen. If your kids become U.S. citizens, ignore the U.S. tax filing obligations for 20 years because they're living in Sweden or wherever, then when they're in their 30s and married and have kids they decide to visit the U.S., the moment they try to step foot into the U.S. the IRS will nail them for back taxes on everything they earned for the last 20 years. (Ok, there's probably a statute of limitations, but you get the idea.)
A lot of Americans living abroad work their butt off trying to renounce their U.S. citizenship just so they don't have to deal with this tax hassle. Do not subject your kids to it unless they intend to live in the U.S. (Some U.S. states do the same thing. California is notorious for it. If you were living in California prior to taking a job in the U.K., California still considers you a "resident" since you didn't move to another U.S. state, and expects you to pay California taxes on everything you earned in the U.K. Even California kids who go to college out of state and don't formally establish their residency in that state have gotten nailed for it when they work a part-time job while at school.)
The U.S. has tax treaties with most developed nations, where taxes paid in those countries on earned income (i.e. wages) can be applied as credit to taxes the IRS says you owe. Since most countries have a higher tax rate than the U.S. Federal taxes (U.S. Federal + State ends up being about the same), this usually means you won't owe the IRS any taxes on earned income. But they still expect you to file a tax return every year. And if you've got unearned income (e.g. interest on a savings account, stocks), you're probably gonna end up double-taxed on that (in both your country of residence, and by the U.S.).
Unless your kids are going to live in the U.S., don't do it.
Re:Yes. What do you lose? But talk to lawyer first (Score:4, Informative)
Americans Living Abroad Becoming Trapped by Citizenship Based Tax Rules [expatforum.com]
Mayor Of London Boris Johnson Announces He'll Renounce U.S. Citizenship [forbes.com]
When American Expats Donâ(TM)t Want Their Kids to Have U.S. Citizenship [wsj.com]
Meet the 'accidental American' with a big tax bill [cnn.com]
PwC suggests a check to see if you're an 'accidental American' [theglobeandmail.com]
âAccidentalâ(TM) Americans Still Owe Income Tax [lawyers.com]
LIMITATION IS 10 YEARS IF YOU FILE (Score:3, Informative)
Statute of Limitations is 10 years IF YOU FILE.
If you don't file: there is no limitation. They can collect for all earnings over the course of your entire life.
Citizens have a different limitation than the IRS. The IRS' limitation never expires if you don't file, but your limitation to collect from the IRS, should they owe you, expires in 3 years if you don't file. There is a potential loophole to this in the Codes, but the IRS privately interprets that loophole to apply to amended returns only (I tried usi
Re:Yes. What do you lose? But talk to lawyer first (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Yes. What do you lose? But talk to lawyer first (Score:4, Informative)
My first year in Iceland, my US return was so complex that most tax attorneys refused to touch it. One offered to do it for over $1000. I ended up doing it myself. Three years later I'm still dealing with the IRS on it. It was as thick as a book.
My subsequent returns have been simpler but are still really annoying.
Seriously, don't do this to your kids. Just don't.
Re: (Score:3)
Or don't get US citizenship, and solve the complexity issue for $0 / year.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
I would disagree that the tax issues are pretty minor. The U.S. says it can tax all your income forever. Because of CISPA it is becoming extremely difficult for U.S. citizens to have bank accounts outside of the U.S. and the value of a U.S. passport over an EU passport is dubious. The largest reason I can see for obtaining U.S. citizenship would be if you were planning on moving with them back to the U.S. or if they were likely to seek employment in the U.S. in the future.
Re:Yes. What do you lose? But talk to lawyer first (Score:5, Interesting)
Yes. They don't lose anything by becoming citizens (there are tax issues but they are pretty minor), and being a US citizen has a lot of advantages, like the support of US consulate services.
I'm a dual citizen (born American, obtained British citizenship while I lived there), and while my default position would be "you should grant them US citizenship as that opens up more options to them if they ever want to live in the US" (and despite the many issues, there are still good reasons to want to live here for many people), it should be said that the tax bullshit really is onerous, and renunciation would be expensive. It is like the US congress has built a financial Berlin wall around the country ... sure, you're free to leave, if you can pay up (and pay for expensive tax preparers who specialize in filing US taxes for expats, as the forms are by no means easy), but good luck ever getting out from under our thumb.
It's not an easy question to answer, and as someone else suggested, I would involve your 16 or 17-year old child in the decision beforehand, with good financial and legal advice on the implications pro and con. Weighing the option of living here vs. the never-ending IRS headaches of living abroad--that's a tough one.
Re:Yes. What do you lose? But talk to lawyer first (Score:5, Insightful)
being a US citizen has a lot of advantages, like the support of US consulate services
And the disadvantages if they travel to hostile places, like being taken hostage and shot, just because you're American.
Re:Yes. What do you lose? But talk to lawyer first (Score:5, Informative)
I'm a US citizen living abroad with a dual-citizen son. I can tell you that there are advantages and disadvantages. The benefits are that they can travel freely to the US and live and work in the US without having to obtain a green card. Also they can travel on either of their pasports largely depending on which country they travel to and they will qualify to receive assistance from any US consulate or embassy when overseas. They will be legally entitled to vote in any federal elections in the US when they turn 18, although if they have never actually lived in the US in practice they can't because no state will allow them to register to vote in that particular state.
The disadvantages are that when they start working they will always have to file a tax return in the US, regardless of where they actually live. For the most part they will receive an exemption for US taxes for any income they receive while working overseas with the exception of self-employment income, if they are legally self-employed then they will have to pay self-employment tax in the US in addition to any tax they pay overseas (some, but not all foreign countries have a self-employment double-tax agreement with the US, though which mitigates this). For me to avoid this tax I had to form a foreign corporation and work for that corporation so I'm not legally self-employed.
Another disadvantage is that they will be required to register for the US selective service when they turn 18 (the draft). There has not actually been a draft since the Vietnam war, though, so this is not likely to become an issue, but it is certainly something to consider.
As stated by the parent they can always renounce citizenship later and avoid the tax and selective service issues, but this is expensive (about $2500USD).
Also speaking of expense, having to file two tax returns means additional accountants fees and additional paperwork, especially if the country you live in has a different tax year than the US (which is very common). Having to maintain two passports is another extra cost as well, but not very expensive when you spread the fees out over the life of the passport.
All of the above said, I made an informed decision to register my own son as a US citizen and I do agree that the benefits outweigh the down sides, but it's certainly not a "nothing to loose" situation, there are downsides and it pays to make an informed decision with full knowledge of them.
Re:Yes. What do you lose? But talk to lawyer first (Score:5, Informative)
I'm a US citizen living abroad with a dual-citizen son. I can tell you that there are advantages and disadvantages. The benefits are that they can travel freely to the US and live and work in the US without having to obtain a green card. Also they can travel on either of their pasports largely depending on which country they travel to and they will qualify to receive assistance from any US consulate or embassy when overseas. They will be legally entitled to vote in any federal elections in the US when they turn 18, although if they have never actually lived in the US in practice they can't because no state will allow them to register to vote in that particular state.
The disadvantages are that when they start working they will always have to file a tax return in the US, regardless of where they actually live. For the most part they will receive an exemption for US taxes for any income they receive while working overseas with the exception of self-employment income, if they are legally self-employed then they will have to pay self-employment tax in the US in addition to any tax they pay overseas (some, but not all foreign countries have a self-employment double-tax agreement with the US, though which mitigates this). For me to avoid this tax I had to form a foreign corporation and work for that corporation so I'm not legally self-employed.
Another disadvantage is that they will be required to register for the US selective service when they turn 18 (the draft). There has not actually been a draft since the Vietnam war, though, so this is not likely to become an issue, but it is certainly something to consider.
As stated by the parent they can always renounce citizenship later and avoid the tax and selective service issues, but this is expensive (about $2500USD).
Also speaking of expense, having to file two tax returns means additional accountants fees and additional paperwork, especially if the country you live in has a different tax year than the US (which is very common). Having to maintain two passports is another extra cost as well, but not very expensive when you spread the fees out over the life of the passport.
All of the above said, I made an informed decision to register my own son as a US citizen and I do agree that the benefits outweigh the down sides, but it's certainly not a "nothing to loose" situation, there are downsides and it pays to make an informed decision with full knowledge of them.
My wife is dual Peruvian/US citizen, and has passports from each country. Because traveling as a Peruvian generally means getting a visa beforehand her Peruvian passport remains unused. When we went to the college one of the first things that she did after getting her legal residency was to establish her legal residency in the town where we lived so that she could pay local tuition rather than the much higher out-of-town tuition or the obscenely expensive foreign student tuition. Working here in the US is also a royal pain, should your kids ever wish/need to do so, for a non-citizen.
BTW, I lived in Peru for three years, never filed to pay taxes during that time, and when I moved back to the US just filed them as "late" and paid a very minor fine. This was two decades ago though, so that might have changed.
Re: (Score:3)
You've kind of skipped the entire nightmare of FATCA which, unless you're quite poor, is a total fucking nightmare.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F... [wikipedia.org]
If you're not aware of this already and are obligated to but haven't been filing...try not to have a heart attack.
Re:Yes. What do you lose? But talk to lawyer first (Score:5, Insightful)
Personally, I don't see that any of these things as compelling practical advantages, given that the kids already have dual Swedish and Belgian (and therefore EU) citizenship. If they were Moldovan and South Sudanese, that'd be a different story. Or if they were citizens of a country from which getting a visa to enter the US might be difficult in the future.
But most importantly I think this is one of those decisions that you just don't make primarily on a cost-benefit basis. It's not like deciding to join Costco or subscribe to Hulu. Citizenship entails responsibilities. If you want your kids to shoulder those responsibilities and feel allegiance to the US then it makes sense to get them that citizenship come hell or high water. But given that they already have two perfectly good citizenships from two advanced western democracies with generally positive international relations worldwide, I don't see much practical advantage in adding a third.
Still, I wouldn't presume to give advice, other than this. The poster needs to examine, very carefully, that feeling he has that maybe his kids should be Americans. The way he expresses it, "sentimental reasons", makes those feelings seem pretty trivial, in which case it hardly matters if they don't become Americans. After all, most other Belgians seem to get along perfectly well without being Americans too. But if this is at all something he suspects he might seriously regret not doing, or if it nags him in ways he can't quite put his finger on, he needs to get to the bottom of that in a way random people on the Internet can't help him with.
Re:Yes. What do you lose? But talk to lawyer first (Score:4, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
it's about possible future chances for their kid to riches, fame and education. Chinese really love to plan ahead. A foreign passport will make education abroad much easier and help with job prospects, even back in China. Not to mention you avoid the hassle that traveling on a Chinese passport gives you - like having to apply for a Visa for pretty much anywhere - i.e. forget ad-hoc trips.
Also the entry barriers for this 1st class Western citizenship are rather low. Just give birth. In other countries you ha
Let them choose (Score:5, Insightful)
Why is 'the clock ticking'? You didn't mention their ages, but say that you have to make the choice before they are 18. Can't they make their own choice, long before their 18th birthdays?
Re:Let them choose (Score:5, Insightful)
I agree. Why don't you ask them when they're 16? Seems easy.
More than likely they'll be satisified being Belgian.
Of course not. (Score:5, Informative)
Silly question. People are paying good $$$ to ditch American citizenship (and worldwide taxation) by the droves and you're considering hobbling your kids to the Home of the IRS? FYI the US is one of only 2 countries that tax non-residents as if they were living in the USA... the other is fuckin' Ethiopia, so that gives an idea of why not to shit on your kids' heads with eagle poop.
Re:Of course not. (Score:4, Informative)
Next time they visit the US, they can be in a fair amount of trouble with the IRS for not filing tax returns. You must file returns, even if you owe nothing.
Making sure the income your collect in a foreign country (even if you're a resident there) is seperate and not taxed by the US is a bit of troublesome paperwork.
No (Score:2, Insightful)
The USA is going down the shitter fast. Don't burden and indoctrinate your children with American citizenship.
When they are adults, they can choose what they want to do.
No, Never, for Any reason. (Score:4, Interesting)
I am Canadian.
It is a common occurrence for Canadian children with one American parent to be automatically given US citizenship. This is not a good thing. The IRS will expect you to file tax returns. They'll try to charge you money, and if you don't bother, it actually makes you LESS mobile, not more.
It's expensive to renounce too. This is a real problem up here, and bites a lot of people. As a Canadian, you can visit the USA mostly without issue (working there is another matter). If you have dual citizenship, there is MORE scrutiny and more complication and more cost.
It is never worth it, ever.
Virtually everyone I know who has dual citizenship has officially (and expensively) renounced it, and none have any regrets, and all are still free to visit the USA.
Re:No, Never, for Any reason. (Score:4, Insightful)
I'd say: yes, do it, with your children's consent. No consent? Don't do it. Tell them at 16, they have to make a choice, and tell them what it means to them. Remember that twenty years in the future, many parts of the world will mature. Which one matures for them means having choices.
Re:No, Never, for Any reason. (Score:4, Insightful)
Remember that twenty years in the future, many parts of the world will mature.
We can only hope that that includes the US. :-)
Re: (Score:2)
But not to work there. For Belgian passport-holders and the like, that's the real benefit.
Do the right thing for your kids (Score:3, Insightful)
You clearly already know the answer.
You have a long list of cons and the only "pro" is that you feel sentimental about it. With Northern European citizenship they'll never really have trouble going to the US if that tickles their fancy and they won't have to deal with filing tax returns or the draft.
More cons than pros (Score:2)
Your own list makes it sound like it's more trouble than it's worth.
Ignore the draft registration issue. (Score:2)
Noone gets prosecuted for failing to register for the draft, since it's impossible to prove that they knew they were required to do so.
Until and unless we actually start conscription up again (WW3, maybe?) it won't be an issue.
Re: (Score:2)
I'm not a citizen and I was forced to register and required to prove it at my next green card interview.
Re: (Score:3)
I find it quite hilarious that non-citizens are supposedly among the first people who'll be drafted to fight for this country. WTF
There are a bunch of consequences for not doing it (Score:5, Informative)
If you fail to register for the draft, you are ineligible for any sort of educational federal financial aid (should you choose to take advantage of it), and you will have great difficulty ever obtaining federal employment in many different agencies (if that's something you'd like to do.)
It says something bad about the US (Score:2)
that a rational answer is "hell no, there's no reason to get your kids burdened with dealing with the US government and laws".
But I wouldn't be surprised if Europeans said the same about the EU.
Re:It says something bad about the US (Score:5, Informative)
that a rational answer is "hell no, there's no reason to get your kids burdened with dealing with the US government and laws". But I wouldn't be surprised if Europeans said the same about the EU.
Actually, having moved between EU countries, I haven't found any disadvantages whatsoever in having a EU nationality. The tax situation that US citizens living outside the USA are caught in is frankly bizarre. As a EU citizen, you can live wherever you want, pay your taxes there, and your own country will leave you alone (slight complication in a year where you move from one country to another, but that is independent of your nationality).
For all those reasons and more (Score:2, Informative)
My cousin is an American citizen, but lives in Switzerland. Her daughters are also citizens, having registered at the consulate. Swiss banking laws and IRS stuff is coming back to bite them, as they girls are both over 18, and now are working on renouncing. They have American, EU and Swiss citizenship at the moment. I fully support their renouncing, even my cousin, as the US laws have made their lives hell.
I'm posting as AC because I want nothing to impede their decisions, or have anything come back to b
No (Score:5, Insightful)
No. Never.
I'm an Australian who has lived in a few countries and currently live in the US on a visa. I'd like to get my greencard, BUT NEVER CITIZENSHIP. The tax headache alone is NOT WORTH IT.
If the IRS ever changes its laws on citizens, then maybe, but that is not currently the case.
Re: (Score:3)
Whoever told you that falsehood should not be believed in the future.
Re: (Score:3)
That's absolutely not true. At one time ('80's I think), on becoming a natualized US citizen, you had to hand over your foreign passport. Not now.
Here is what the State Department has to say on the matter [state.gov]
Have you talked it over with them? (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Well... (Score:5, Insightful)
It sounds like you've already made up your mind. I suspect that you can delay the decision until a year or so before the kids turn 18. Your son and daughter will no doubt have a few good ideas about what they'd like to do at that point and I'd seriously recommend allowing them to participate in the decision as near-adults.
Re: (Score:2)
Does the option exist after 18 ? (Score:2)
Ultimately, Europe is probably the best bet in this case. The US sounds nice, and is a nice country to travel around, but living there is harsh and not very welcoming (little ass
News for nerds? (Score:3, Insightful)
Why is this here? How is any of this related to what Slashdot is supposed to be about? I'm usually pretty lax about what's posted on Slashdot, but this question should be posted on a forum somewhere else, not on a news site for "nerds".
Patriotism (Score:5, Insightful)
It isn't doing you any good, and your kids will never have it.
Good for them.
yes, simple logic: they can renounce later or not (Score:2, Insightful)
No brainer. Earmark $2,300 for them now, set it aside, and when they're legal age they can decide if they want to file the paperwork to renounce their citizenship. Then when they're older they have a choice that most people never get a chance to have, at least not so easily.
Not yet, let them decide. (Score:2)
If you don't sign before the child reaches 18, the child is not considered an American citizen.
So I read this as meaning you have 18 years for such a decision to be made? In that case, don't do it now, but let them make their own minds up when they're (hopefully) intelligent teenagers who can understand the implications and how they might want to live their adult lives (such as if this might include moving to the US). Unless you plan on returning to the US or splitting up with the mother and want custody, t
May not have to worry about taxes (Score:5, Interesting)
I have no clue if that was legal or not. And I have no idea if this matches your circumstances, but it may be something you want to look into. See if they will be forced to pay taxes even if they don't have an SSN number just the tax id (which is different for children, or so I've been told).
Re: (Score:2)
While working in Canada I had a boss who was a US citizen, but he had been born in Canada to US married parents. He had the tax id for his parents to claim him as a dependent till 18. But he did not have a SSN number. He refused to work in the states because he didn't want to get a SSN number and thus have to pay taxes for the rest of his life, but he was still a US citizen. I have no clue if that was legal or not. And I have no idea if this matches your circumstances, but it may be something you want to look into. See if they will be forced to pay taxes even if they don't have an SSN number just the tax id (which is different for children, or so I've been told).
I am shocked that someone posted something potentially informative.
Re: (Score:3)
It wasn't necessary for your kids to have SSNs for you to be able claim them as dependents until ca. 1986. Maybe the poster's boss was raised before then?
Even though I moved around a lot as a kid, and didn't live in Louisiana until 1985, I have a Louisiana SSN because that's when my parents had to get me one.
for the love of god file the report of birth (Score:2)
I have a very close friend who is in immigration hell because of a situation like this. just file the report of birth abroad and get it over with, if they don't want it when they are an adult, they can renounce it. In her situation, life didn't go as expected and her unwed parents split a few years down the line. She ended up moving to the US with her mothers new US national husband. She only speaks English and has no memories of her life in Europe. She has been trying to straighten this out for the past fe
Ask Yourself One Question (Score:2)
Do you and your family plan on returning to the U.S. to live here?
If so, then getting them citizenship may be a good idea.
Otherwise, it sounds like it's more trouble than its worth.
Volunteer for Mars One (Score:3)
Don't do it!!! (Score:4, Informative)
All this is and she is barely 2 years old.
If you are CERTAIN she will be living in the US in the future then sign her up for citizenship. And leave it to the last minute so she can give her informed consent when she is most able to give it. But US citizenship is more of a burden than a blessing so she is generally better off without it.
You're so lucky. (Score:3)
You're lucky! Where I live, banks have realized that they can avoid the whole FATCA rigmarole by not accepting US persons as customers. You want a securities account? Great. Oh, you're a US person? Sorry.
This US person "disease" also spreads via power of attorney. You're not a US person, but your spo
Dual passports is usually a win. (Score:3)
Dual passports is usually a win.
Not only are there some countries that won't like one or the other of your kids citizenships (solution: travel there on the other passport), some countries will give you a really hard time if you try to go there, but have a stamp from another country they don't like.
In addition, if you have a stamp from some countries, other countries won't let you work there. For example, it used to be that if you had an Israeli stamp in your passport, you were barred from Egyptian archeology.
Note that your kids need to do this before they are 18; after 18, they can be required to renounce U.S. citizenship to obtain alternate citizenship, and vice versa; a lot of children of Irish immigrants to the U.S. have found this out the hard way, for example, when they decided after age 18 to claim their Irish heritage, and use that to take advantage of opportunities to study in Europe, rather than going to a U.S. university.
Finally, they can always renounce later, if they become Internet billionaires, like Eduardo Saverin, who the U.S. effectively paid $700M to renounce his citizenship, although there's a 15% "exit tax", so if they go this route, they should do it *before*, rather than *after* the IPO - he'd have been another ~$300M richer if he'd done that and left the country before the actual IPO.
If I can make it here I can make it anywhere... (Score:4, Insightful)
For all the hate the US gets on Slashdot, it's still the country of record. It's hitting the big time. Top finance jobs are centered in the US. Top technology jobs are centered in the US. The movie and TV industries are largest in the US. 9 of the world's 10 best universities are in the US. Sure, such jobs are available in Nigeria, but the best most and the most talented tend to work in the US, and you're limiting your kid's future by not allowing it.
I know so, so, so many Chinese people (both PRC and Taiwan, Malaysia, etc.) killing themselves to get their kids in the US because it has the best school and the top jobs. Not to mention, my wife's parents, several of my best friend's parents, etc. NOT doing it, when it would be easy to fill out paperwork, just seems like irresponsible parenting.
Re: (Score:3)
you talk about china? of course people in china want to leave. and, lets be honest, they have NO IDEA what the hell the US is really about. even when they move here, they stay together and don't mix (its true even though you may not like this fact) and after 5 years here, they will still not really know what the US is truly about. its a romantic view of what the marketing wants you to believe. it used to be true decades ago, but now, I would not suggest coming here.
now, lets talk europe. if you are in
Re: (Score:3)
>> even when they move here, they stay together and don't mix (its true even though you may not like this fact) and after 5 years here, they will still not really know what the US is truly about.
You know, that's always been true about immigrants? Hell, my great-great-great grandparents immigrated from Canton Glarus, Switzerland, to New Glarus, Wisconsin. Make sense why the town was named New Glarus? I doubt they even ever bothered to learn English. Their children born here knew English, though, an
Re: (Score:3)
Chinese push it to the extreme though (disclaimer, my wife is chinese, and her family fit exactly the description above, and they freely admit it...my wife was born here and was kind of a rebel, thus why she broke the line and ended up with a white guy).
The length they'll go to avoid all "foreigners", even when they're in the middle of big cities, big schools, etc...All big companies have a "Chinese" mailing list that a ton of them subscribe to, eat together, go out together, only deal with doctors/contract
I regret becoming a US citizen (Score:4, Insightful)
I became a US citizen in my teens and left when I was in my 20s. FACTA has made banking next to impossible. I'm legitimately thinking of ditching it at this point but I can't afford the fees (yes it costs money to renounce your citizenship). FACTA only screws over the low wage earning US citizens abroad, it does nothing but turn us into criminals while those it was meant to catch (rich tax evaders) are able to pay accountants and lawyers to navigate the laws both at home and abroad.
I've never filed taxes in the US, upon discovering that I had to submit a return I emailed the IRS and explained my situation. Their response was to threaten me with hundreds of thousands in fines for not complying AND not answering my question (which was "What exchange rate do I use when filing? Yearly average? Year end?'). Honestly, fuck the United States government.
Re: (Score:3)
I became a US citizen in my teens and left when I was in my 20s. FACTA has made banking next to impossible. I'm legitimately thinking of ditching it at this point but I can't afford the fees (yes it costs money to renounce your citizenship). FACTA only screws over the low wage earning US citizens abroad, it does nothing but turn us into criminals while those it was meant to catch (rich tax evaders) are able to pay accountants and lawyers to navigate the laws both at home and abroad.
I've never filed taxes in the US, upon discovering that I had to submit a return I emailed the IRS and explained my situation. Their response was to threaten me with hundreds of thousands in fines for not complying AND not answering my question (which was "What exchange rate do I use when filing? Yearly average? Year end?'). Honestly, fuck the United States government.
It may also be worth mentioning that many banks outside the US are flat out refusing to take US citizens as clients - or dumping us if they already have us, because they don't want to have to deal with the reporting (and penalties, etc) that go along with it.
No way (Score:3)
Why decide now? (Score:4, Insightful)
If your children are small and the deadline to sign the affidavit of support isn't until they're 18, as you said, wouldn't it make the most sense to simply put off the decision until:
A) They're nearing the age of 18, can weigh the pros and cons themselves, and can indicate their desire to you
B) There's an unanticipated but immediate use for it (e.g. war or natural disaster strikes Europe)
C) The situation changes such that the decision becomes clearer one way or the other (e.g. tax burden lessens, becomes harder for foreigners to work in America, etc.)
More or less, I don't see the urgency in making this decision now, rather than in a decade, and this sounds like the sort of decision that could very easily make itself for you if you simply give it enough time.
What do you mean "Let them"? (Score:3)
My suggestion is that your role here is to compile a list of facts, pros, and cons to US citizenship, and prepare to have a frank and earnest conversation with your kids about it when they become 16 or so, and tell them that you'll help them begin the process when they're 17 if they choose to go through with it. Your role here is facilitator, not dictator.
Why the hell are you asking us? (Score:3)
You should be asking your S.O. and your attorney.
"Well, honey, I asked a bunch of random strangers on the internet if we should let our kids be US citizens and they said..."
I did and didn't (Score:3)
I am an American citizen. I have had seven children; my children have five mothers. Two in America, one in Thailand (died), four Thais still alive.
I prefer my children to be Thai. Indeed, if it were possible, I would give up my American citizenship and become a Thai citizen myself.
IANAL, but ...
You make the normal mistake that any kid of yours is an American citizen at birth.
I disagree.
AFAIK only YOU can get your kid an American passport.
Uncle Sam, in all his egocentric power, cannot force him to be a US citizen.
The USA passes laws that regulate the behavior of U.S. citizens even when they live overseas.
For example, sex with a girl under 18 is a federal felony.
What the hell will that mean when my son is 14 years old and discovers 15 year old girls?
My bank refuses to open accounts for US citizens because of IRS regulations,
how is that going to affect my offspring?
After our divorce, my ex-wife asked me to get our son a US passport, so I did. He's in Australia right now.
As a practical matter, a boy is not a US citizen unless the US government knows about him. If a boy is eligible for dual citizenship, I have heard that he must decide on one or the other before he's 18. My son is now 7; I figure he's got another 10 years to go before he has to make his own choice. Then it's up to him. Until then, let Uncle Sam ignore my son.
Andy Canfield (www.andycanfield.com)
Exceptionalism (Score:3)
Only if they can keep their other nationality! (Score:3)
I missed applying for a German ID at the age of 16 which would've automatically made me a German citizen. I could've kept my amercian citizenship. I had to renunciate it when I wanted to become a German as a grown up. It's a bit of a shame I couldn't get my lazy teenage ass to go to the citizens bureau for 20 minutes to pick up my ID a few years earlyer. If I still were american, I'd have zero hassles entering the US whenever I want to.
I am glad to be German, Germany has quite a few upsides, especially these days. But it would be cooler to have both citizenships. No suprise here.
If you can get U.S. citizenship for your kids without needing to renunciate their other citizenship(s), by all means do it.
On the other hand, ditching a perfectly neat european citizenship for a U.S. citizenship is something I probalby wouldn't do.
Quite a few countries public don't allow for multiple citizenships, but in pratice they let them slip (who's going to find out anyway?). If you can sneak into a dual-citizenship for your children without to much of a legal risk, do it. Just tell them when they're grown up, and tell them not to advertise it at every occasion, especially not at US customs(!!!).
Ask other swedish/belian people in simular situations and try to find out how belgium/sweden handles dual citizenships and if there are any serious legal pitfalls.
Good luck.
Simplify your analysis (Score:3)
You have already identified the cost of ending American citizenship - $2300 and "a lot of paperwork". If the possible benefits outweigh the current cost to you (filing tax returns now and a future expense of $2300 and paperwork to renounce if you/they choose to do so) then go ahead and make/let them become citizens. If the possible benefits don't outweigh those costs, then don't do it.
If you do it, you can change your mind later. If you don't do it, you can't change your mind later. My personal choice would be to do it, bearing in mind the future expense of $2300 and paperwork per child. It keeps your options open for what seems to be a fairly low cost compared to the potential benefit.
There certainly wouldn't be any shame in renouncing citizenship in the future on the part of your kids, given that they hadn't had any choice in becoming citizens now. If they decide, upon reaching the age of majority, that they would rather not have that tie they can dissolve it for the cost you already mentioned (probably plus a little inflation). If you really want to cover them, invest $2300 per child in a fund now that will pay for their dissolution of American citizenship later. At their majority, hand the fund (with its accumulated earnings) over to them and let them make their decision. You will have protected the future option for them but preserved their ability to decide at no cost to them.
There's more to it than just taxes: FBARs,and more (Score:3)
Also, there's FBAR - foreign bank account report. A US person must report any and all of their foreign accounts, even if they don't owe any taxes. Should you happen to forget that, the fine can be as high as the maximum value of each account - for every year that you forgot to file.
Re:Why are you asking us? (Score:4, Funny)
Or ask your children - and then do the opposite. What do they know, anyway? ;^)
Re: (Score:3)
Taxes are lower in the US though. And I guess it may not be the general opinion in the US but they are at least spent on:
1) Upholding the law & society.
2) Upholding the border.
and hence:
3) Guarantee the society of their citizens.
You seriously need to take off those rose-tinted glasses.
Or maybe just read a US news website once in a while. The US is a country where a) justice is applied very unequally, depending on your race (ref: the recent analysis of Ferguson, Missouri); b) where there are all sorts of political battles raging right now over the number of illegal immigrants living in the US (estimated in 2008 as 12 million people; more than the entire population of Sweden! The basis is often about how the President isn't doing e
Re: (Score:3)
Think about your assumptions!
Someone who is elderly or ill may find what seems to you like just moderately time consuming infrequent burden, to be instead an insurmountable, overwhelmingly complex ordeal.
Re: (Score:3)
and I'll argue your 'jobs' point right back at you, against you.
there is NO retirement here. none. you will work until you physically die. or even longer ;)
there is no social safety net. not really. get sick or lose your job and you're homeless.
as you get older, jobs are harder to find. its not that way in other countries, at least in non-3rd world countries, but we go nuts about youth, but really hate our old folks. even middle age gets you rejected from many (most?) of the so-called hot jobs and ho
Re: (Score:3)
but don't deny your kids a chance at something millions of people would die for.
Millions of third world peasants maybe, but those of us in the developed world couldn't give a shit about American Citizenship. You couldn't pay me to have it, and my anecdotal evidence tells me a lot of other people I've met agree.
Stay in Europe where the word progressive still has some meaning. (Note for haters, I'm neither European or American)