In Greece, 10 Months In Prison For "Blasphemous" Facebook Page 324
First time accepted submitter etash writes "A bit more than a year ago a man was arrested in Greece for satirizing a dead monk, after the far-right party golden dawn, petitioned for his arrest. A couple of days ago he was given a ten-month sentence. What actually enraged the religious Greek blogosphere was not the satire. He wrote a fictitious story about a miracle done in the past by this specific monk. The story was then sent to [a religious blog] and then in a matter of days it was copy pasted and presented as true by most of the religious and far-right blogs and news sites. The final act of the dramedy took place when he came out and revealed that the story was not real; he intended to show the absurdity and the lack of reliability of these sites."
Violation of ECHR (Score:3, Insightful)
Not neccesairly (Score:3, Informative)
EU or specific member countries also have laws that prohibit certain types of speech. For example you can't deny holocaust or promote Nazi ideology. I believe some of EU countries have specific laws that prohibit denigration of religion.
Re:Not neccesairly (Score:4, Informative)
Denying the Holocaust is illegal here in Germany not because of opinion but because it is a false statement, clearly and irrefutably documented. However, what was supposed to be the big deciding case -- Elisabeth Sabaditsch-Wolff in Austria -- was denied because her statements weren't determined not to be simply thoe of fact:
Secular as so many EU countries are, there are problems due to "legally recognised religion", a natural progression stemming from the inclusion of some sort of religion in the countries' constitutions.
Re:Not neccesairly (Score:5, Informative)
Denying the Holocaust is illegal here in Germany not because of opinion but because it is a false statement, clearly and irrefutably documented.
No, it's because it's the Holocaust. Just making a false statement is not illegal.
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I'm just using those as examples.. those are not my personal opinions.
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No, it's because it's the Holocaust. Just making a false statement is not illegal.
It's because it's the Holocaust and *they are Germany*
Re:Not neccesairly (Score:5, Insightful)
Denying the Holocaust is illegal here in Germany not because of opinion but because it is a false statement, clearly and irrefutably documented.
Careful with that there.... some future benevolent leader may get elected and questioning their authority maybe considered illegal due to a clearly and irrefutably documented "election process." Stipulations in Freedom of Speech rarely turn out well. Freedom of any and all speech should be a fundamental human right.
Re:Not neccesairly (Score:5, Interesting)
Stipulations in Freedom of Speech rarely turn out well. Freedom of any and all speech should be a fundamental human right.
Thomas Jefferson and James Madison once had this same conversation. Jefferson had proposed that the Constitution protect the right to "speak the truth". Madison pointed out that this was a bad idea, because people in power could dictate what was "true". Jefferson agreed, and freedom of speech was written into the Bill of Rights without qualifications.
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It's an interesting tale, but does it matter in practice? Assange had to turn to Ecuador and Snowden to Russia.
It doesn't really matter what your country does or doesn't say if your populace wont enforce it.
Far better to focus on ensuring healthy leadership, than to ignore the growing incompetence of leadership whilst quibbling about "what if" scenarios that will happen regardless of what the law says if you let that dictator rise to power.
Germany doesn't need to worry about what some theoretical dictator m
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Even in the US one may be punished for yelling "Fire!!" in a crowded theater. Based on their experience of two World Wars, the Germans concluded that shouting "Heil Hitler!" and "There was no Holocaust" are similarly dangerous and merit controls ... in their country. That seems to be fairly narrow and tailored to address the problem.
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And how do you think that "intentionally and negligently" created panic comes about? Hmm? It isn't magic.
Re:Not neccesairly (Score:4, Informative)
Here is Holmes's original argument, which he subsequently uses to justify the most odious intrusions on the right of free speech.
The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man in falsely shouting fire in a theatre and causing a panic. It does not even protect a man from an injunction against uttering words that may have all the effect of force.
In 2003, there was a fire at the The Station [wikipedia.org], a Rhode Island nightclub. Wikipedia notes
By this time, the nightclub's fire alarm had been activated, and, although there were four possible exits, most people naturally headed for the front door through which they had entered. The ensuing stampede led to a crush in the narrow hallway leading to that exit, quickly blocking the exit completely and resulting in numerous deaths and injuries among the patrons and staff.
In other words, there was a real fire, and instead of calmly leaving the nightclub, there was a panicky stampede, and people got killed in that stampede. Fire safety standards were even looser in Holmes's time, so the possibility or being killed in a stampede was even higher. And while a stampede might be an understandable reaction to the threat of fire, "falsely shouting fire and causing a panic" could mean that people would die for no other reason than the shouter's grossly irresponsible prank.
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Clearly the fault lie to the unsafe design of this nightclub. Exit hallway should be wider. The nightclub administrator were greedy and let in too many customers in for the capacity this building allowed. Overcrowd nightclub is common.
There were 4 exits, each capable of evacuating 250 people in a minute (for example). There were 900 people in the club, but everyone just chose the same exit.
Figures made up, but the point persists. Unless you design your building so everyone can exit quickly via the same exit you're screwed. That means tends of thousands leaving an stadium through one turnstyle.
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Being civilized does not allow a person to control their emotions. If you have ever seen people scared for their lives (for real or imagined) you would never have made that statement. Most people have no idea what they will do in an emergency until it has happened to them. Their idealized self most likely crushed in that moment and they spend the rest of their life trying to forget it or playing "what-if" games during boring meetings.
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This opinion was given as a result of a case against a British European Commission official Bernard Connolly, who had written âThe Rotten Heart Of Europeâ(TM), a book critical of the EU.
It's a bit more complicated than that. Connolly was head of the EC unit that dealt with European monetary policy. The book that he wrote was critical of the EC's monetary policies, i.e. he wrote and published a book criticising his own employer. He was fired for it, and appealed his dismissal. The ECJ rejected the appeal (which is kind of understandable). The opinion was justifying Connolly's dismissal by the EC, not attacking his book.
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The "denigration of religion" is a messy situation which still needs clear legal decisions
It needs one, and only one; the one where finally agree that any argument (prosecution or plaintiff) that is based on a variation of "It says in my holy book...", is thrown out of court, automatically, with no chance of appeal. And yes, the mess is already made when a country's constitution includes "some sort of religion" as source from which it derives it's authority. And for those of you who slept through your civics classes in the U.S., no. Our constitution may reference deity, but it very carefully avo
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You use the same constitutional provision the Nazi's used to stifle free speech. You've not stopped being evil.
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Denying the Holocaust is illegal here in Germany not because of opinion but because it is a false statement, clearly and irrefutably documented.
Freedom of speech is limited in Germany as an act of oppression: to keep the Nazis from rising again. That is a good goal, but we should be aware that it is, in fact, an act of oppression, and not something we necessarily want to follow other places.
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Except for the part where education doesn't work with religious fundamentalists. "Thou shalt remain ignorant of anything not printed in this book" is a tenet of most religions, and is dogmatically followed by the fervent believers.
I'm not saying you should pass a law making religious people believe a thing or not believe a thing. I'm just saying you shouldn't have any laws at all regarding religion, especially those that promote respecting it, honoring it, denigrating it, or providing tax evasions for tho
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Including Atheist fundamentalism, apparently...
Re:Education, not laws (Score:4, Insightful)
Including Atheist fundamentalism, apparently...
What book would that be then?
Re:Education, not laws (Score:5, Insightful)
"Thou shalt remain ignorant of anything not printed in this book" is a tenet of most religions, and is dogmatically followed by the fervent believers.
I'm going to quibble over this point. It is not a tenet of most religions. It is a tenet of a few religions, and some of them have been very loud.
(They've also made good villains with which to smear other religionists. You've been suckered.)
Re:Education, not laws (Score:4, Insightful)
The reason that denying the holocaust is illegal is entirely because of public opinion - or rather public fear as to what it might lead to. ... why single out just the one false statement from all the other false things idiots say?
Germany outlaws both Holocaust denial and various expressions of Nazi culture. They rightly recognize that the danger those pose is political and those would be rallying cries to restore the threat to being a present danger again. There are still neo-Nazis in Germany waiting for their chance. Do you want to give it to them unimpeded? Anti-Semitism is on the rise again across Europe already despite the mass slaughter that is still within living memory and taught in schools.
Re:Education, not laws (Score:5, Insightful)
There are plenty of neo-Nazis here in the good ol' US of A. The difference is that we have freedom of expression, where if a handful of skinheads goosesteps up and down the street yelling "Sieg heil!", there are a hundred non-skinheads who yell "go home you morons" at them.
The rest of us watch them on the TV, and either abhor, admire, or ignore the actions of one side or the other.
It's important that these idiots be allowed to express their stupid opinions. The basic idea is that it helps avoid creating the "poor suppressed martyrs" who use that to draw other people who feel outcast into their secret clubs.
Does this strategy work? Well, the neo-Nazis here are very marginalized.
Re:Education, not laws (Score:5, Insightful)
Does this strategy work? Well, the neo-Nazis here are very marginalized.
Excellent post and as far as I'm aware you're quite right, Neo-Nazism simply hasn't become a real problem in Western democracies. That's despite the full availability of some of the most emotive and powerful imagery ever employed (such as Hitler's speeches, the Swastika, etc.) which is all still here and just as potent even after all these years.
Free speech for these people and other groups like them is a critical safety valve for society. It also allows the public to judge the words and deeds of said groups for themselves without '3am disappearances' hiding the true extent of a movement.
Yet despite this I've had some (quite heated) arguments with otherwise normal people who would have the Neo-Nazis thrown in prison if they could. Why is this concept of freedom of speech so hard for some people to grasp, even as they enjoy the benefits of a free society?
Re:Education, not laws (Score:5, Informative)
Hitler's speeches are in German, and the US public mainly only has memories of the swastika as symbolizing an evil enemy. Thus, swastika-wearing, Hitler-quoting neo-Nazi movements have little resonance with Western/US audiences; the insidious power of Hitler's own words and symbols has little resonance with the American people. However, more "home-grown" groups, promoting similar ideologies but without swastikas or German-language slogans, do get a significant amount of traction in the US --- if you wrap up the ugliest racism, xenophobia, and far-right authoritarianism in an American flag, you can attract quite a following. So, while Nazis-calling-themselves-Nazis are only a fringe joke in the US, Neo-Naziism by other names is far from being "not a problem."
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Sorry, but this doesn't support your assertions at all. Many of the things on your list there aren't racist at all. Anti-gay groups and sentiment (which of course does seem to be the current focal point for a lot of the right-wingers) has nothing to do with racism; gay people come in all races. Anti-immigration sentiment isn't necessarily racist either; try illegally immigrating into various European countries or Canada and see what happens to you there. Every nation has the right to set immigration law
Re:Education, not laws (Score:5, Informative)
Excellent post and as far as I'm aware you're quite right, Neo-Nazism simply hasn't become a real problem in Western democracies.
As you say, "awareness" is part of the problem. You aren't aware, and neo-Nazism is a problem in Europe.
'Like 1930s Germany': Greek Far Right Gains Ground [spiegel.de]
Nowhere else in Europe are neo-Nazis and right-wing extremists profiting as greatly from the financial crisis as in Athens. As they terrorize the country with violence, the police stand back and prosecutors are powerless.
Marian Kotleba: Slovakia’s New Neo-Nazi Governor Only Latest of Right-Wing Extremists Emerging In Eastern Europe [ibtimes.com]
Kotleba, whose organization has long agitated against Slovakia’s Roma (Gypsy) minority, branding them as “parasites,” once belonged to the now-outlawed Neo-Nazi Slovenská Pospolitos (Slovak Community) movement that praised the Nazi puppet government that ruled the country during World War II. Bloomberg reported that Kotleba openly admires praised Jozef Tiso, president of the Nazi satellite state in Slovakia during World War II, which dispatched thousands of Jews to Nazi concentration camps. Kotleba, a 36-year-old former high school teacher, has been notorious for sporting Nazi-style uniforms in public, and also repeatedly arrested and sued for spreading racism and hate (no such charges have ever stuck, however).
Russia: Far-Right Nationalists And Neo-Nazis March In Moscow [huffingtonpost.com]
Neo-Nazis form expanding networks beyond national borders [www.dw.de]
The cooperation between right-wing extremists from different countries is gaining strength. Experts warn that this phenomenon could have dangerous consequences.
Neo-Nazi parties on the rise in Europe, Jewish group warns [ctvnews.ca]
BUDAPEST, Hungary -- The World Jewish Congress said Tuesday it is greatly concerned about the emergence of what it called neo-Nazi parties in Europe, singling out Greece's Golden Dawn, Hungary's Jobbik, and Germany's National Democratic Party.
A study presented at the congress's assembly in Budapest, the Hungarian capital, highlighted the links among the growing strength of such extremist groups, the European economic crisis and latent Nazi-type tendencies in Europe.
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Thanks Fjord, some interesting information and links.
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I am happy to oblige, and no offense intended. Have a great day.
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There are plenty of neo-Nazis here in the good ol' US of A.
There are in fact very few neo-Nazis in the good ol' US of A. And those that do exist tend to be at the fringe of society, freaks, or offering calculated offense. That wasn't always the case. The US government suppressed the German American Bund [youtube.com] Nazi movement in the US during WW2. Returning veterans had little love for the Nazis after having fought them tooth and nail across Europe only to arrive at the concentration and death camps [youtube.com].
Some things are not purely a question of free speech. Have the anti-Kl
Re:Education, not laws (Score:5, Interesting)
...if a handful of skinheads goosesteps up and down the street yelling "Sieg heil!", there are a hundred non-skinheads who yell "go home you morons" at them.
Does this strategy work? Well, the neo-Nazis here are very marginalized.
Basically I agree strongly with what you wrote in both philosophy and practice. But I cut Germany some slack here, using the US as the example.
Nazism was a “philosphy” that was harnessed to the state within living memory. As a result there are plenty of remaining artifacts around from old driving licenses or professional certificates (e.g. Opticians) or marriage licenses that are still valid documents (old German driving licenses had no expiration dates) which bear swastikas and other nazi references. There are still old granddads who had fun shooting guns in the war. I know one friend’s dad, drafted at 17 in 1944, who's main memories are crazy russians running through hi farm trying to defect to the west. Plus learning to shoot. But every once in a while he uses an old aphorism from his childhood that's not only disturbing, but doesn't even agree with how he lived his life. I am sure there are living grandparents with stories they learned in school in the 30s and who were happy with those times. So since the wound is still fresh, this is a part of trying to heal it.
Compare that to the US. The civil war ended in 1865 but old southern racists survived well into the 1920s (even reaching the presidency, with Wilson) and the Jim Crow legacy continued into the 1960s and beyond. The reconstruction program which was killed early in the US was the equivalent of the reconstruction of Germany, which, in these laws, continues to this day.
I agree with Brandeis that "Sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants" so feel free speech should be extremely free. But the German's position shouldn't be rejected out of hand.
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That's a great point, that there are still some Germans living with their past. But when the war ended, it was clear that Nazism was defeated then and there. Our legacy of slavery moved at a different pace. After the U.S. Civil War, the Thirteenth Amendment simply abolished slavery. There were no other laws that suddenly gave the freed slaves any big pile of extra rights, privileges, protections, or reparations that didn't apply to others.
Actually the end of the war was a slow and messy affair (the break in Japan was cleaner) and various successor movements do break out around Europe from time to time (look at the current government in Hungary for example, as well as some parties in the balkans, perhaps including, to reconnect to TFA, Breaking Dawn). Postwar by Tony Judt is a good summary.
In the US those other laws you talk about were passed and implemented, but reconstruction [wikipedia.org] was rolled back after a change in government. It's a nice A/B
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What you're saying is that Nazism is so toxic and so powerful that it overwhelms the minds of those it is exposed to, such that they cannot control themselves. If that's what you believe, then you've already lost. No law can save you from such a force.
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What you're saying is that Nazism is so toxic and so powerful that it overwhelms the minds of those it is exposed to, such that they cannot control themselves. If that's what you believe, then you've already lost. No law can save you from such a force.
Well, that's not what they believe in Germany. They believe that there are different kinds of assholes, and nazi assholes are such bad assholes that they should be removed from the streets and put into jail.
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Nazism clearly has limits since it does not come to power everywhere it exists. But it also is certainly not powerless since it did come to rule in Germany, and it still draws adherents to itself even today.
The Germans are arguably quarantining a vulnerable population.
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If Nazi ideas are so readily identifiable as bad ideas, how do they spread to begin with? How do they gain power?
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Most countries ban things like advertising arsenic as a cold cure as well.
National Security is another reason to suppress speech including jail time for someones speech.
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You can't deny Holocaust because it's a documented event.
So is creationism. Let's ban all the scientists!
Truth of the matter is that the "freedom of speech" in Europe has the same protection as the fourth amendment in the US. Both are empty promises.
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The EU criminalized speech that defames Islam and in some rare cases, Christianity.
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Dude he's just joking, lighten up. Besides, Greece isn't a race. It reminds me of the jokes I crack at the Canadians I hang out with about living in igloos, and jokes about Americans being fat.
I think being politically correct douchebags on a large scale causes worse problems than people making offensive/racist jokes on a large scale. At the worst the later might offend somebody so they hang out somewhere else, but the first has a tendency to make life suck because you have to take things too seriously at e
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EU law covers freedom of speech/expression. The question is whether he can stay out of jail while appealing this bullshit. The Mediterranean countries are our own domestic third world, but with really good food.
Even in the EU, speech/expression with the intent to commit fraud (which is actually what this case is about) is not protected speech. The religious overtones of this case are irrelevant. He could just as easily posted falsehoods about various investments (and there have been cases along those lines, with much harsher penalties).
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I don't know about specific law, but I thought that there needed to be a benefit to the liar for it to be fraud. If I started spouting lies in favor of company XYZ, but I have no stake in the company, know no employees, owners, stake holders, clients, suppliers, etc, etc, then how is it fraud?
Posting falsehoods about investments typically have some financial motive. The typical pump-and-dump scheme, for instance. Now that is fraud.
"Fraud is a deception deliberately practiced in order to secure unfair or unlawful gain... A hoax is a distinct concept that involves deception without the intention of gain or of materially damaging or depriving the victim."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraud [wikipedia.org] (Yes, I know, a very weak source. Bu
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I don't know about specific law, but I thought that there needed to be a benefit to the liar for it to be fraud. If I started spouting lies in favor of company XYZ, but I have no stake in the company, know no employees, owners, stake holders, clients, suppliers, etc, etc, then how is it fraud?
Posting falsehoods about investments typically have some financial motive. The typical pump-and-dump scheme, for instance. Now that is fraud.
"Fraud is a deception deliberately practiced in order to secure unfair or unlawful gain... A hoax is a distinct concept that involves deception without the intention of gain or of materially damaging or depriving the victim."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraud [wikipedia.org] (Yes, I know, a very weak source. But it shows that I'm not the only one who sees it this way.)
In the case in question, he did it to intentionally discredit the religious types. The unlawful gain secured, does not have to be monetary. For instance, committing or saying things falsely against a competitor does not necessarily bring one immediate gain, but it is not a hoax. Fraud can involve altering the status quo by devaluing the other. Also, a false report that denigrates some other organization but bolsters one's value in the eyes of another can also be fraudulent, particularly if the others net v
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Your version of fraud (completely uncited by the way) is so broad as to effectively eliminate any satirical speech.
hacking pompous insularity (Score:4, Insightful)
Dude, eristic [wikipedia.org] argument is the mainstay of civilization. We're always engaged in the internecine struggle to discredit other parties to our own ends. I'm doing it right now.
More interestingly, this is perhaps the founding principle of the human language capacity.
The Argumentative Theory [edge.org]
From the text itself:
What this fellow did is conduct a hack against pompous insularity. Take a turd, disguise it with some food colouring, put it on their plate when they aren't looking, then watch the gobble it up while the pound the table exclaiming "We don't eat turd!"
What you end up demonstrating is that they distinguish turd from non-turd mainly by social optics, and not by its sensory quality.
Always the rule with those engaged in pompous insularity is that no outsider has standing to challenge their practices unless first vetted by the gatekeepers of the pompous insularity itself.
In order to achieve this, you'll have to master the extremely arduous standards of the profession (prestige barriers are usually high) in the pursuit of an outcome (deflating the eminent within that profession) that will have you black-listed from any form of employment where you could ever hope to receive a personal gain in exercise of the mastery you slaved to achieve. And then the gate keepers mock you when you say "thanks, but no thanks".
It's so much easier to sneak a poop pie onto the buffet table and watch them eat it smacking their lips.
It's the same deal with a packet filter in network security: hard crunchy outside, soft chewy inside. The professional walls are exceedingly hard to breach, but the defences inside those walls (which involve hard intellectual work to sustain) have long since gone to the dogs, yet they behave externally as if their house is in perfect order. This is an eternal story.
What it comes down to is whether one regards this kind of hack, which begins with a small deception, as a valid form of whistleblowing.
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EU law covers freedom of speech/expression.
Sort of. In practice punishment over various forms of speech regarding religion is a problem in Europe. What makes this so unusual is that it relates to punishment for disparagement of a Christian figure. Punishment for expression of views related to Christianity is the general rule.
Re: Violation of ECHR (Score:2)
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Try tweeting about bombs in the UK, promoting nazism in Germany, communism in Poland, "making homosexual propaganda" in Russia, and see the freedom of expression you enjoy in the mythical North.
Which is not to say that censorship is acceptable or that people who'd like to be ruled by "golden dawn" are sane, it's just that being "mediterranean" is not one of their probl
Re:Violation of ECHR (Score:5, Informative)
In Greece, judges are required to suspend all non-felony sentences, unless the convicted has a criminal record. Even if you have a criminal record, the sentence can be still suspended, and even if it is not then, for non-felony sentences, you can buy the prison time for 10 euros per day.
If you get a suspended sentence it does not show on your public criminal record, only to the one available to judges.
So there is no chance that this guy will go to prison, and the conviction is very likely to be reversed when the appeal is heard.
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...hires prostitutes to do his bidding
Doesn't everyone that hires prostitutes hire them to do their bidding?
Language (Score:3, Informative)
He wrote a fictitious story about a miracle done in the past by this specific monk.
If he really wrote it then it wasn't fictitious. You may be looking for the word "fictional".
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fictitious, adj
1. not genuine or authentic; assumed; false: to give a fictitious address.
2. of, related to, or characteristic of fiction; created by the imagination
Link [thefreedictionary.com]. Usable here, IMO, though "fictional" may still be more appropriate.
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Okay, I just had to bite.
The real problem is not the word, but the grammar.
Change it to read:
He wrote a story about a fictitious miracle done in the past by this specific monk.
I believe this communicates the intent correctly. The story is real, the miracle is not.
Not here! (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Not here! (Score:4, Insightful)
This is nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with politics and Golden Dawn. The Euro has pushed Greece to the edge, and GD are seeking to exploit the ferment. It's a damn shame, and IMHO the sooner the whole experiment is declared a failure the better, especially for nation states such as Greece. Spain, Portugal, Italy and even France face similar difficulties, on a sliding scale.
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Re:Not here! (Score:5, Insightful)
Really? To me, it runs just below the surface.
Abortion, still pursued with varying vengeance at the state and federal level to deny access to it across the US
ACA has all kinds of religious exemptions written into it
In court you swear to a particular diety.
Education, a bunch of states, some of which influence purchases across the US, keeps having trouble with this separation, slipping in and out of teaching a specific religion
Hell, I'm still not sure why here in Canada we publicly fund a parallel Catholic school system along with our public schools.
Re:Not here! (Score:4, Informative)
Why we have a parallel Catholic school system in Canada. [wikipedia.org]
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The first line in the Charter of Rights here in Canada blathers on about recognizing the "supremacy" of "god".
It's of some comfort that most Canadians have never read it, therefore aren't using it to push their religious agenda.
And also, most of us aren't religious nutjobs.
Re:Not here! (Score:5, Insightful)
What separation ?
Your presidential oath is finished by a beautiful "So help me God", as is the citizenship oath, and every coin and bank note feature a the famous "In god we trust". So I really don't know what you are talking about...
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Is the country ruled by a committee designated by the Church? Is the supreme ruling authority a council of priests? Is there an official state religion? No? Then that is what is being talked about.
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That clearly isn't the same.
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The president can take the oath however he likes. He does not need to use a bible or have the words so help me god included. Granted No non-christian would ever get elected but if they did there is no requirement for a bible or mention of god.
Re:Not here! (Score:4, Informative)
What separation ?
Your presidential oath is finished by a beautiful "So help me God", as is the citizenship oath, and every coin and bank note feature a the famous "In god we trust". So I really don't know what you are talking about...
The degree of separation between church and state in the USA is in theory guaranteed by the first amendment to the US constitution, specifically the 'Establishment Clause' which has generally been understood to prohibit congress from designating a national religion and to forbid the US government from preferring one religion over the other. In reality, however, the extent of this separation has been the subject of fierce debate. It is clear from the private correspondence of US founding fathers such as Thomas Jefferson that they wanted "a wall of separation between church and State". Even so there are powerful forces at work trying to minimise the height and thickness of that wall and as you pointed out they have already chiseled a few gates into it.
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Yeah, but the thing is Jesus did like the company of whores - he was criticised by the religious elite of the day for associating with "tax collectors and sinners". That and the "he who has no sin cast the first stone" thing...
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http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-one-murdered-because-of-this-image,29553/ [theonion.com]
Proof the religion is the true evil. (Score:5, Insightful)
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I've got news for you -- politics is religion. It's memes spreading to assemble large groups of people so you can dictate, in detail, everybody's life, especially those of a different "religion".
It's just been stripped of appeals to god, evidently an unnecessary part of it.
As with religion over millenia, freedom from the dominant form is treated as an evil. Freedm from control using religion as argument is sadly just a brief window until controlling memes readjust and adapt and resume business as usual.
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I've got news for you -- politics is religion.
Bullshit. All religion is based on the supernatural. Politics is not. The fact that the two are often overlapped does not make them one and the same.
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Zealots of all sorts need to be held in check and kept away from the children, IMO, even those on the left.
The state shouldn't be pushing any kind of faith.
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Right, the sate should be barred from running schools entirely not providing them.
Re:Proof the religion is the true evil. (Score:5, Informative)
I'm Greek but haven't lived there permanently since I was I child, so someone who's currently living there may have a different take on this: What you have to understand is that religion in Greece is approached somewhat differently to countries like the US or the UK. If you're Greek then it's pretty much a given that you're also baptised Christian Orthodox. It's only recently, amidst controversy, that "religion" has been removed from the national ID cards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_identity_card).
The link between nationality and religion is particularly strong because of the recent history of the country. What was to become the modern state of Greece begun its revolution from the Ottoman empire in 1821. Religion was an important factor in helping to create the "us vs them" mentality required to rise the people against the Ottomans. Following the revolution, religion was one of the tools used to bind the nation together. Religion and history were used a vital social glue, since the post-revolution Greeks were having a hard time organising and governing themselves without squabbling. Furthermore, the 19th century was the first time Greece existed as a state in its own right, so this was a particularly difficult period. Before that "Greece" was part of the Ottoman empire, before that the Byzantine (which was, admittedly, Greek speaking), before that it was the Romans, before that it was city states. Over the course of its history, different parts of Greece have also been occupied by the Venetians, the Franks, and the English.
As a result of this turbulent history, Greeks now take their national identity very seriously and religion is part of that identity. Most Greeks aren't truly religious and few go to church regularly. There isn't any crazy religious extremism like the Bible belt US and there is little preaching in church: the priest does the liturgy (same every day) then he leaves. However, the extreme right wing Golden Dawn have, predictably, hijacked religion as it's a good way of mobilising Greeks against the dark skinned immigrants and gays they so detest. So none of this really about religion at all and religious Greeks can cope with satire of the sort discussed here. All of this is about the Golden Dawn seeking every opportunity to flex its muscles.
The Golden Dawn are pretty fucking crazy. They've yelled "Heil Hitler" during a parliament session (http://www.euronews.com/2013/05/17/golden-dawn-and-syriza-clash-over-heil-hitler-cries-in-greek-parliament/) and their PR guy smacked a far-left politician in the face on live TV (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xi6TbLmeFoQ) and later claimed, again on TV, that he was defending himself and that she hit him first (I don't have an English language link to that movie).
Re:Proof the religion is the true evil. (Score:4, Interesting)
Metaxas [wikipedia.org] didn't fight against Italy because he was ideologically opposed to fascism, but as a squabble between two nationalist, fascist dictatorships that each wanted their own country to be the powerful one. From the Wikipedia article on Metaxas,
Patterning his regime on other authoritarian European governments (most notably Fascist Italy), Metaxas banned political parties, prohibited strikes and introduced widespread censorship of the media. National unity was to be achieved by the abolition of the previous political parliamentary system, which was seen as having left the country in chaos (see National Schism).
So, Golden Dawn's model after Metaxas is all about bringing back good ol' Fascism; the only difference they have with German or Italian fascist movements is that their movement centers around making Greece the big, strong, bully country (instead of Germany or Italy).
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Re:Proof the religion is the true evil. (Score:4, Interesting)
Yes, he fought against Fascist Italy and Germany --- but, it's like a turf war between rival gangs; he wasn't doing it out of dislike for the fundamental principles of Fascism; only that he was a Greek nationalist, instead of an Italian nationalist (thus not friendly towards Italian military aggression against Greece). When it came to policy and ideology, he modeled his state after that of the Italian Fascists --- book burnings, brutal suppression of dissent (leftists), youth thug squads, enmity against cultural/religious diversity, etc. His only main difference from Fascism was that he worked through the existing, entrenched authoritarian state, rather than gaining popular support to overthrow the existing state and install a fascist dictatorship (not necessary when your dictatorship is already in power, so you can tone down the radical populist rhetoric a bit) --- thus, scholarly contention that he should be technically categorized as "paternalist-authoritarian" instead of "fascist." Sure, he threw in some anti-imperialist rhetoric, which was an easy thing to do for a country without major imperial holdings (but fighting back against imperialist grabs by other countries).
Re:Proof the religion is the true evil. (Score:4, Interesting)
I am Greek also, living in Greece - most things you wrote are not very wrong (but not very right!). Almost all Greeks are Orthodox Christians (not fanatics, but ALL -yes, even Atheist!- Greeks go to church few times a year) - even you, as a Greek living abroad you, should know that and you should admit that you go to church also!
Indeed, I agree. That is why I said "few go to church regularly", rather than "few go to Church at all." Yes, I'm an atheist and I went to church for Easter this year because I was in Greece then. I can't remember the time I went prior to that and I certainly don't go when I'm not in Greece. It's true that very many turn up for the big events like Easter, but the way they do so frankly hardly counts. For instance, during the resurrection mass most people turn up only for the resurrection itself and then go home. As you know, the service itself goes on for quite some time both before and after that point. This leads me to believe that most go out of habit, for the social aspect, to sing the hymn, etc. I don't think most people are going because of any deeply held religious convictions. This, as you say, is because Greeks are not religious fanatics and aren't interested in a church that judges their private lives. For a lot of Catholics or bible-belters the latter is a rather foreign notion.
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Well my dear fellow Greek, (Greek) Orthodox Christianity is against "deeply held religious convictions"...
I wouldn't say that was a good way to sum up the Orthodox faith. A more accurate sound-bite would be "rejection of papal supremacy." Other than that, I seem to remember there was some East/West friction with the Creed. So basically there are doctrinal differences that priests get very excited about. Greeks are possibly against deeply held religious convictions but their church is not. How could it be when the priests hold such convictions and there exist Orthodox monasteries?
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No offense intended, but most non-native English speakers I know appreciate corrections to their English. The word "movie" explicitly refers to a "feature film." "Video" is the word you are looking for. Other than that, thank you for the informative post.
Hmmm.. Thank you for the correction but your prior is in error. :) You see, I am a native English speaker. You're correct that the dictionary definition of "movie" is a feature film watched in a theatre (I had to look that up, TBH), however my alternative usage of the term "movie" is not unusual, even if it's wrong. For instance, Nature include "supplementary movies" at the end of some of their papers. These movies may be only a few seconds or possibly minutes in length. e.g. http://www.nature.com/nature/ [nature.com]
One sheep's "blasphemy" (Score:5, Interesting)
One sheep's "blasphemy" is another man's truth.
Government and law should stay the hell out of religious debates.
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One sheep's "blasphemy" is another man's truth.
Government and law should stay the hell out of religious debates.
Historically its' been the other way around hasn't it? It's religion that had trouble staying the hell out of government and law.
insulting the church (Score:2)
So what if he had? Oh, right, insulting religion is illegal in many European countries.
A Pastafarian after my own heart. You WILL be touched by HIS noodly appendage.
Since i am a Greek... (Score:5, Informative)
Well -since i am a Greek- let me explain.
That guy did a hoax/satire using a dead Greek Christian monk highly respected in my country - it wasn't his first hoax/satire against Christianity...
That was noticed by a right-wing political group and they used an old law for "protecting the religious beliefs/feelings of people against mockery" (created many decades earlier for protecting the Muslim minority) to instil -in an ironic way... we are Greeks...- a sense of logic!
The guy said in an interview he gave in the Greek media that even the police officers and the prosecutors were really upset that they had to charge him... but "dura lex, sed lex" - don't worry, he is not going to jail or anything like that.
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I am also greek but don't share your perspective. In Greece is according to the constitution a christian orthodox country. In the school, the army the courts of law and many other institutions, christian symbols are forced on people. I have been forced to pray and attend mass both during my school years and my mandatory military service. It might seem trivia for someone who shares the faith but for me and many greeks who don't feel christian, those are practices against their dignity.
The greek church is the
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Why the hell does /. show me 100+ comments of "USA this, USA that" before i get to a post that actually discusses THE STORY?
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You mean prosecutors don't have any discretion in Greece *not* to charge him? That's hard to believe. Surely they could have just said they didn't see pursuing this as in the public interest or that the case had no merit and would lose in court. Surely they could drop the charges now. Or are they just covering their kolo? What if the judge also covers his or hers?
This sort of theater is one reason I'm not sure I like civil inquisitorial legal systems. In common law countries, prosecutors will often drop cases that are bound to get thrown out of court or plain lose because it's a fruitless waste of resources to pursue such cases and also because, in adversarial systems, losing sucks balls for their careers. If there isn't a good solid case against the accused, he or she should go free. At least in theory.
I hate blasphemy laws, but if you're going to have them, you should apply them to the rule and not just charge the blasphemy that the politicians or lawyers don't like.
The embarrassing thing for Christians (Score:2)
Is that the approx. 2000 year old Gospel accounts illustrate precisely that this behaviour occurs in organised religion, that it's not right, and that a good teacher teaches against such stuff. How can so many from so many Christian churches read their Bible regularly and not see this???
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I don't see how Christians should be embarassed by atheists persecuting each other.
The prankster is likely atheist.
The right wing group persecuting him is provably atheist: being Christian is not defined by labeling yourself as such, proclaiming obedience. MT 21:28, MT 7:22. Forcing people to respect Christ is depriving them from the possibility of respecting its message freely, and that's not only atheist but anti-religious. Obedience is a value only if it comes from choice.
I don't see why commenters here
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Is that the approx. 2000 year old Gospel accounts illustrate precisely that this behaviour occurs in organised religion, that it's not right, and that a good teacher teaches against such stuff. How can so many from so many Christian churches read their Bible regularly and not see this???
Most don't read it all. Most of those that do, only use it as a reference to support this or that preconceived notion. A significant portion of the group "Christians" can't read well enough to read their holy book, even if they wanted to, let alone comprehend it. So in answer to your actual question... because they don't want to.
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A significant portion of the group "Christians" can't read well enough to read their holy book, even if they wanted to, let alone comprehend it.
Most, if not all, holy books cannot be comprehended even if you know the language and can read the words. The books are just too illogical, and they are never written in a plain, simple language. Quite contrary to that ideal, they are written from multiple, conflicting viewpoints, and they depict the same events differently, and they use archaic phrases. Translat
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Sorry, I haven't noticed this little detail. I obtained my textbooks from the university's library... for free. I never had to buy textbooks. This is one of few things that the old, bad USSR got right.
The Golden Dawn party (Score:3, Informative)
They were at best marginalized if not outright ridiculed until the financial crisis hit. Once they realized a whole lot of people were desperate and looking for someone to hate, someone to blame for their misfortunes they also figured out this was a prime opportunity for them to rise in actual power. They reshaped their speeches, packaged their image a little better to appeal to senior citizens and angry young men then pointed a finger to immigrants, Jews, you name it - while of course suddenly featuring a deep faith in all things Christian. Complete with hatred and barely restrained racism, because of course that's what Christianity is all about.
The worst part of this? They have an excellent chance in being a kingmaker in the next elections. It will come down between the current conservative government and a leftist coalition of political powers in Greece, but it's quite likely neither will have the majority on their own. And the Golden Dawn is squarely third in the polls right now... and of course they'll be able to make a deal so that a government can be formed at all.
Neonazis in power. It's a nightmare.
Meh.
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According to TFA: "The charges against him, of insulting religion and malicious blasphemy, were filed after Christos Pappas, a politician from the far-right Golden Dawn party, brought the issue before parliament. Pappas is currently detained pending trial on charges of belonging to a criminal group, as part of a government crackdown on Golden Dawn."
This is an interesting twist. The Golden Dawn is being cracked down on as a "criminal group:, and the person bringing the charges is in jail? Pretty wacky!
Sokal Affair (Score:2)
> He wrote a fictitious story about a miracle ... he intended to show the absurdity and the lack of reliability of these sites.
So, its basically along the lines of Sokal Affair. ...except for the arrest and incarceration of course.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokal_affair [wikipedia.org]
The real blasphemy... (Score:3)
The truth is that not even the various Churches believe in many of those supernatural gurus or miraculous places. But they can't deny them, because people like to believe in them and they can't afford losing more faithful; because locals earn a lot from religious tourism and the Churches get their share of that money; and possibly because advocating for rationality in religion-based matters for them would be like throwing stones in the proverbial glass house.
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The golden dawn petitioned for the arrest of a dead monk, so this guy satirised the monk and got arrested for that?
thank you. i was really stumped by how to parse that sentence. Your interpretation is correct. the only question is how this heinous crime got pinned on this guy. Golden Dawn must know people in the police dept and planted evidence.