Man Arrested In Greece For "Blasphemous" Facebook Page 412
An anonymous reader writes "A 27-year old man was arrested yesterday in Greece (Greek-language original) by the electronic crime police, for creating a Facebook page "Geron Pastitsios" which made fun of an extremely respected Orthodox Christian monk who lived in Mount Athos, as well as the Greek Church. The arrest came promptly after the Greek far-right party — which holds 7% of the parliament seats — submitted an official petition asking the government to take down the page. The charges that the young man faces are 'blasphemy' and 'disrespect to the religious beliefs of others.'" What would the UN say?
man it sucks here in the USA (Score:4, Funny)
with all this freedom of speach.
Re:man it sucks here in the USA (Score:5, Funny)
with all this freedom of speach.
Thankfully, we've cracked down on the freedom of snectarine.
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Bout 2 and half milenia since Socrates and this guys cant get it through their thick head. Really, human stupidity knows no bounds.
Re:man it sucks here in the USA (Score:4, Insightful)
and this 'news for nerds'...
You realize the tagline/motto is gone, right?
Re:man it sucks here in the USA (Score:4, Insightful)
Believe it or not, free speech matters a great deal to computer nerds and geeks. Computers for us is all about expression not all about consumption and being free to express what ever we choose to express within reason is very import, up to and including expressing our dislike for all those who would suppress us. I believe you might have forgotten but the church has a terrible history of burning us intellectually driven types at the stake, so yeah those of us who know a little history will for ever be sticking it to religions to keep the buggers down and make sure they never get the opportunity to torture to death future generations of computer geeks and nerds. We know who our enemy is, history has taught us our enemy, it is ignorance and those who would exploit it for their own personal gain. The core of being able to perpetuate ignorance has always been religion and compulsory religion has been the worst offender.
Re:man it sucks here in the USA (Score:4, Insightful)
Minor correction: the church rarely burned anyone at the stake. In fact, they rarely had the authority to do any such thing. Most actual religious executions were carried out by secular powers. This includes everything from Christ's crucifixion to the Spanish Inquisition. If you weren't unlucky enough to reside in Italy, the chances of the church directly burning you at the stake was quite minimal. In other words, the politicians of the day were the one's directly responsible.
Furthermore, if you looked for where the science stayed alive, and where mathematics was cherished during the Dark ages, you would find it in monasteries and whatnot. (And in other parts of the world naturally; the Dark ages were only dark for Europe after all.) At that point in European history, the Catholic church was the only one willing to commit the resources to support intellectuals. Sure, most of the intellectuals they supported were intellectuals working in theology. But not most by a long shot.
I'm no fan of the Catholic church, but your hatred wrongs them, and the rest of all religions along with them. Religion has been, historically, one of the most philosophic endeavors civilizations would support. Intellectually driven people have been, as often as not, employed by 'the church.'
Re:man it sucks here in the USA (Score:4, Insightful)
I like how you conveniently omit the "Stuff that matters" part.
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Well, they did sell out to Dice, which hasn't mattered since the dot-bomb.
Re:man it sucks here in the USA (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:man it sucks here in the USA (Score:4, Informative)
This is certainly news for nerds. A man is being arrested for posting something on facebook. To be arrested for posting ANYTHING on facebook seems *insane* to me.
The US, for it's faults, certainly does have some good points. I was watching an old (2 years) youtube video about Paul Hogan (Crocodile Dundee) who was under investigation by the Australian Crimes Commission. He went on TV talking about the investigation, the video I was watching was a follow up by some sort of a talk show host who was saying that it's illegal to talk about the investigation or even admit you are being investigated--that seems absolutely insane to me as well. So not only are we going to accuse of crimes, but it will BE A CRIME if you tell anyone we are investigating you......... that is nuts.
Re:man it sucks here in the USA (Score:4, Insightful)
This is certainly news for nerds. A man is being arrested for posting something on facebook.
It could be argued that Facebook is for the masses, not for nerds.
On the other hand, theists forcing others to not ridicule their absurd fairy tales is stuff that matters.
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That's how it is in the US if you're being investigated by homeland security, the existence of your case is 'classified'. I don't know how common this is, though the gag rule makes it impossible to tell.
Re:man it sucks here in the USA (Score:5, Insightful)
We're harassing the hell out of some guy who made a 2nd-rate movie about Muhammad and making sure the world sees him being put into the back seat of a car.
First I've heard of it. Who's "we"? Last I heard the guy is still pretty anonymous.
Then our government buys airtime on Pakistani TV to apologize for his actions.
Er, no, that's to explain to the people of Pakistan that the US government does not have any control over what individuals say and that in America there is freedom of speech.
This freedom stuff is fragile so pay attention!
Yeah. Pay attention.
Re:man it sucks here in the USA (Score:4, Insightful)
So why exactly do we need to buy airtime in Pakistan to let them know that the actions of some guy making a movie are not official US government policy?
Will explaining this to anyone who needs it explained to them change a mind? Just one mind. Not looking for miracles here.
It is my belief that it will not change one mind in Pakistan. Not one.
The fact that the government feels the need to do this is not as you rightly stated apologizing.
It is a bad attempt at pandering though. Pandering that has no hope of working and that can only make the US federal government look weak and ineffectual.
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
Comment removed (Score:5, Funny)
bread and circuses (Score:2, Insightful)
Well, perhaps this kind of controversy is exactly what the Greek government needs to turn attention away from the economy.
Re:bread and circuses (Score:5, Funny)
And yet my first tought upon reading this was "so this is how the Greeks use the bailout we gave them."
Oh, well. At least we now know that all that whining about budget cuts was all lies, since they can fund an inquisition. Nobody expected that.
Electronic Crime Police (Score:5, Funny)
Lack of tolerance to other religions (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Lack of tolerance to other religions (Score:5, Insightful)
'blasphemy' is anachronism from middle ages. 'disrespect to the religious beliefs of others.' is exactly what he have done.
And it should be legal.
Re:Lack of tolerance to other religions (Score:5, Insightful)
'blasphemy' is anachronism from middle ages. 'disrespect to the religious beliefs of others.' is exactly what he have done.
And it should be legal.
It should be mandatory. All religions are crazy.
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Re:Lack of tolerance to other religions (Score:5, Insightful)
If you expect to make the argument that because their god is imaginary Muslims shouldn't get upset at offenses, you're not arguing for religious tolerance; you're arguing that your religion is better than theirs.
Re:Lack of tolerance to other religions (Score:5, Interesting)
In a democracy the majority should get their way - by definition.
No, the definition is that the state is ruled by the people. Demos = people, kratos = strength.
Whether it's by the people's needs, or by the people's representatives, or by universal suffrage (for everyone except those we don't want to be enfranchised) is not per definition.
I can fully support a system where you have to earn votes by passing classes and tests, and this would likely be a democracy more in line with what Cleisthenes, Aristotle and Plato wanted. Uneducated and ignorant voters is the downfall of democracy. You don't let a child climb a branch hanging over a cliff just because that's what he wants.
Re:Lack of tolerance to other religions (Score:5, Insightful)
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Insightful? What you just stated is "one set of beliefs", which means you're no better than anyone else.
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Re:Lack of tolerance to other religions (Score:4, Insightful)
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Sadly, few of the ultra-religious see the difference between the two anymore. Not being with them means your against them, not agreeing with them means you disrespect and hate everything they hold dear - no tolerance, no compromise, no glittering future. Just the likely ending of our hands around their necks, and their hands around ours as the world as we know it fades to black.
Forever.
Re:Lack of tolerance to other religions (Score:4, Insightful)
Disagreeing and disrespecting aren't the same thing.
For rational people, no. For religious people, well, you're sort of out of luck on this. If you believe that Allah is the one true god and that anyone else is deluded and should be either reeducated, taxed, or criminally prosecuted, and then I come and hold the belief that all this religious stuff is just a memetic parasite living on a biological/neurological substrate grown for some quirky evolutionary reason within the past few dozen millennia, it's difficult to me to imagine that person telling me "All right, I don't see your naturalistic point of view as an affront to my faith." If anything, news from the Middle East convinced me that the reality is exactly the opposite one.
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Disagreeing and disrespecting aren't the same thing.
And so? You have no legal protection from being offended, nor should you. Freedom of speech is entirely freedom of offensive speech. Anyone should be able to legally disrespect anyone else, and anyone else's beliefs.
Throwing a temper tantrum and exploding all ove the place just because you were offended is immoral and wrong.
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An infinite, onmipotent God is big enough to be an Atheist, Baptist, Catholic, Pastafarian, Hindu, Moslem,
When you get to heaven/hell, you get a private heaven/hell, created just for you, with exactly what you expect. So does everyone else.
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So I just have to expect hell to be a happy place, and then I can do whatever evil I want and as "punishment" I get brought to a happy place after death? :-)
Re:Lack of tolerance to other religions (Score:5, Insightful)
By holding onto one set of beliefs, you implicitly disrespect all other sets of beliefs whether you want it or not.
Untrue. I'm a Christian, but the year I was in Thailand I gained a LOT of respect for the Bhuddists. It depends on what beliefs you're talking about. I don't have to believe in reincarnation or karma to respect those who do.
However, when a belief is obviously brain-dead stupid, like electing someone who is exactly like Bush will have a different result than the clusterfuck that was his administration, I can't respect that. Stupid doesn't deserve respect.
Re:Lack of tolerance to other religions (Score:5, Interesting)
People need to earn my respect. You don't automatically get it by virtue of your gender, you don't get it because of your age, you don't get it because you have nice hair, you don't get it because some morons voted for you... And you certainly don't get it just because you have the older fairy tale.
When you can rephrase a law that still amounts to an anachronism in a way that it doesn't refer to thoughtcrime, let me know.
We need to get over this BS of "religious tolerance". I "tolerate" anything that doesn't affect me. If your brand of delusions negatively affect me, then no, I will not tolerate that.
Re:Lack of tolerance to other religions (Score:4, Insightful)
Having to earn respect is a lot different from deserving disrespect. And we all have delusions, which quite often negatively effect others. The point of tolerance is to prevent one brand of delusion from harming another (or from harming something that isn't a delusion, but also can't be proven as such, therefore causing other people who disagree to brand it as a delusion).
Re:Lack of tolerance to other religions (Score:5, Insightful)
I have a religious belief that free speech is sacred, and any restriction on that speech is disrespectful to my religion.
This arrest is blasphemous (Score:3, Funny)
As the founder of the 42nd New Reformed Neo-Rebel Orthodox Pastafarian Church (newly created, 30 seconds ago), I find that all laws against blasphemy are blasphemous against my religion.
So such laws must be eliminated because they are self-violating.
Re:This arrest is blasphemous (Score:4, Informative)
Greek Orthodox Church is the only one that has special status in Greek constitution. Others need not apply. Go away, infidel.
It's to wonder... (Score:2)
How the hell they managed to lift the privacy of the user and give his name to the public so quickly... I really doubt there is such a fast lane for any other crime. Obviously, a "Barbara Streisand" effect has ensued on the Greek blogosphere and Facebook pages were similar pages have popped up.
Re:It's to wonder... (Score:4, Insightful)
The "Barbara Streisand" effect can actually be hazardous for the accused here. Supposing that the charge is actually valid enough to surpass a cursory ruling of the courts, his crime is essentially the equivilent of pointing something out that makes someone else look bad in public. If a lot more public are now aware of it, then potentially the harm or problems these actions caused are now compounded.
Blasphemy laws are not necessarily about hiding the certain speech. They are more to the point of stopping it altogether. The bigger the exposure the bigger the penalty might be in order to discourage the behavior in the future. Of course people outside of Greece's jurisdiction don't really need to worry about them.
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You are right. Good interpretation.
Petition... (Score:5, Informative)
Politics (Score:5, Funny)
Politics is the same everywhere. I'm guessing it's an election year in Greece too. Politicians doing outlandish things they know will never hold up in any court is what we call "tuesday" across the pond. Conservatives over here have done things like pass laws forbidding global warming. Not research into it, or funding for it, but global warming itself. They've made being the Earth a crime. Elsewhere in America, there is a state now where, by law, every woman is pregnant. No, I'm not joking -- they legislated the definition of conception to be two weeks before sexual contact. No more virgins here, good sirs! Still no word on whether they're allowed to use the car pool lanes.
And those aren't even examples of religious non-sense, which makes the above examples look positively civil by comparison. *hugs* Greek citizens, we feel your pain too.
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The scariest thing here is that you pretend to be informed enough to vote and one would assume you actually attempt the process. Politics being the same elsewhere is probably the closest truth in your post.
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No you cannot. Everything you said was exaggerated ad hominem not even closely related to the truth. The links you posted even show that if anyone cares to read them objectively.
North Carolina did not outlaw global warming, they required planning to be done using historical data instead of a myriad of guesses that sea levels will rise if X isn't done. This move only limited the data to what was perfectly fine historically exclusively used until about the year 2000 or so when all the sudden research after re
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Conservatives over here have done things like pass laws forbidding global warming
They've made being the Earth a crime
in America, there is a state now where, by law, every woman is pregnant
Seriously... wtf are you talking about? You either need to put down the crack pipe, or provide legitimate citations for these (and then pass the crack pipe over here)
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Everything you wrote is true, but I think it misses the point.
The reason for the law has nothing to do with making a reliable estimation of the gestational age -- if it was, they would have made the change and then added two weeks to the amount of time given for a legal abortion (this would have kept it consistent with the amount of time given in other states). The way it was done, the only practical effect of this change is to shorten by about two weeks the amount of time available for legal abortions.
The inmates are running the prison... (Score:5, Informative)
The monks on Mount Athos have a quite a history of corruption and greed (see, e.g., http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatopedi_monastery#Land_deal_controversy [wikipedia.org]). I wonder if this blasphemy case is a retaliatory measure against a whistleblower?
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Re:The inmates are running the prison...
Except in this case, its the mental patients running the country.
Re:The inmates are running the prison... (Score:4, Interesting)
"far right" means?? (Score:3, Insightful)
Just trying to make sure I understand the definition of "far right".
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Then You Don't Know What Golden Dawn Is (Score:5, Insightful)
As per usual, it's sloppy shorthand for "do not like".
As per usual, it's just someone calling a political party what it calls itself. They are talking about Golden Dawn [wikipedia.org]. If you'd like to go into Wikipedia and change the political position of Golden Dawn to "do not like" from "Far-right" I think you will find that both liberal and conservative editors will tell you to take a hike.
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far right: (adj) political ideology that predisposes adherents to passive-aggressive whining about how no one likes them
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Just trying to make sure I understand the definition of "far right".
I think it refers to the same group of Greek politicians that once put thousands of Greek leftists into concentration camps.
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Conservatism (and thus "right", including "far right"), because it includes defense of traditional instit
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Geert Wilders campaigns against state subsidy. Yeah that makes him part of the right.
The definition of right is relative and amounts to the party with more support for the social hierarchy. Far right groups are groups that support the innately superiority of some groups generally racial discrimination but can also refer to support for noble families i.e. monarchists. Wilders is someone who supports strong anti-Islamic policies which effectively have strong racial undertones.
Conversely the attackers on th
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Just trying to make sure I understand the definition of "far right".
There is no definition possible without the context. You can't put even the US parties on a simple one dimensional axis and there are only two of them. And what about Libertarian party, are the right or left? If you have to have a simple chart that maps out political opinions I prefer this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Political_chart.svg [wikipedia.org] Basically I think we need up and down as well as left and right.
Don't you just loooove Conservatism? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Don't you just loooove Conservatism? (Score:4, Informative)
I can understand that you have no concept of anything outside America. But you should note that this is about Greece, not the US. Crying about what you think is wrong in the US has nothing to do with the situation in a foreign country.
Greece has money to police 'electronic crime?' (Score:5, Funny)
Did one of them finally pay taxes?
Stop applying (Score:2)
the rules of your club to people who aren't in your club.
This just in:
My belief states I always get to play the ship piece in monopoly. Anyone who says otherwise should be arrested for blasphemy. If Parker Brothers stop putting the piece in the game, then they are committing blasphemy.
Liam Neeson is angry (Score:4, Funny)
Greek government is blaspheming against Zeus, the true god of Greece. Time to arrest them all and put Sam Worthington (son of Zeus) in charge.
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Let's keep this legitimate and put Kevin Sorbo in charge please.
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Let's keep this legitimate and put Kevin Sorbo in charge please.
Wouldn't that be illegitimate [wikipedia.org]?
As a Christian, I would like to appologize (Score:5, Insightful)
For this sort of behavior on the part of others claiming to be Christians. I don't want to be persecuted for speaking my mind and what I believe, and so I do not believe anyone should be arrested or harmed for speaking out or posting things online. There is a fine line to walk when things become violent (death threats) or obscene (pornographic), but in so far as possible we need to be open and free in dialog if we want to have civil and prosperous societies.
This is one of the few things that is still great about the US (where I live), though it is slipping day by day even here. But arresting someone for what they post? Or worse, in Islamic areas, killing people for what *others* post? I don't see how that sort of behavior can lead to anything good.
Am I missing something here? (Score:5, Insightful)
Doesn't blasphemy require attacking actual deities or assorted holy objects/texts/persons, rather than mere religious functionaries, however pious?
If anything, isn't it (in the context of an ostensible monotheism, like eastern orthodoxy) verging on blasphemy to assert that satire against a mere man is blasphemous?
Obviously, religious functionaries have the same interest in conflating their own status with the priviliged status accorded to dieties, just as politicians generally do their best to conflate their own persons and administrations with lofty things like 'Nation' and 'The Office of the President'; but, in both cases, it is actually a vital part of the protection of the genuinely venerated things to mock and dissuade the assorted grifters who attempt to parasitize them. Not doing that swiftly turns your religion into a cult or your government into an autocracy...
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Not in the slightest. I'm pretty certain that this is the Greek fascists playing a little game of 'one nation, one people, one god' or some similar variant of the assorted sordid little tales of enforced unity that litter human history.
What is the Golden Dawn party about? (Score:5, Insightful)
"Let the gods avenge themselves" (Score:5, Insightful)
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Also, Christian. See, e.g., Romans 12:19.
Just to speak out (Score:5, Informative)
I am a Christian. I am not Orthodox, but I have enjoyed reading about their church and traditions online, and I have a lot of respect for them as compared to a lot of Protestantism.
But this is intolerable. Requiring anybody to respect anything is slavery and is an unChristian violation of liberties. The Bible says in the New Testament in 1 Corinthians 15 that the church's judgment is to be enforced only within the church. Even St. Paul the Apostle expressly denied that he had any authority to judge those who are outside of the church.
This is wrong, immoral, and unChristian.
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But since our discourse has now turned to the subject of blasphemy, I desire to ask one favor of you all, in return for this my address, and speaking with you; which is, that you will correct on my behalf the blasphemers of this city. And should you hear any one in the public thoroughfare, or in the midst of the forum, blaspheming God; go up to him and rebuke him; and should it be necessary to inflict blows, spare not to do so. Smite him on the face; strike his mouth; sanctify your hand with the blow, and
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I don't think that's correct. Link?
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I am an Orthodox Christian and what little I've seen from the article the Facebook page is highly offensive. Elder Paisios was an unassuming, humble monk, who was a great spiritual teacher and loved by many. Making fun of him would be like picking on Mother Teresa or someone like that. Nevertheless, I think an arrest is uncalled for.
I would also like to point out that the over-reaction to the page is coming from political quarters. To my knowledge, the Church is not behind this.
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Making fun of him would be like picking on Mother Teresa or someone like that. Nevertheless, I think an arrest is uncalled for.
Exactly.
I would also like to point out that the over-reaction to the page is coming from political quarters. To my knowledge, the Church is not behind this.
Christians are responsible for doing right all of the time, not just when they are representing the church. They cannot put on dark hoods and form a club and then lay the blame for their misdeeds at the feet of the club. Even if the club is political. Christians are always the Body of Christ, and I hope that the Orthodox Church teaches this.
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The Bible says in the New Testament in 1 Corinthians 15 that the church's judgment is to be enforced only within the church. Even St. Paul the Apostle expressly denied that he had any authority to judge those who are outside of the church.
They [wikipedia.org] didn't [wikipedia.org] get [wikipedia.org] the [wikipedia.org] memo [wikipedia.org].
Bad Analogy Warning (Score:3)
Getting fined in California for selling foie gras, or jailed for growing grass strikes me as far more absurd.
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If some having an opinion about you religion, ad you don't like it? grow the fuck up. The only people that should be thrown into prison are the people KILLING other people becasue they don't like what someone else said.
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If you allow the "heckler's veto", you have no free speech. If you outlaw inconvenient speech as "hate speech", you have no free speech. If you outlaw speech just because those offended throw a really big temper tantrum and embarrass the grown-ups, you have no free speech.
Freedom of offensive speech is the only free speech.
You're only making it worse for yourself (Score:2)
electronic crime police (Score:4, Funny)
A 27-year old man was arrested yesterday in Greece (Greek-language original) by the electronic crime police
look, can't we just remove their batteries or reboot them or something? maybe a re-install is needed?
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I just imagined a cross between CHiPS and TRON.
a little inside information (Score:5, Informative)
The problem was not the site that his guy had in facebook making fun of paisios. What hurt the religious nutjobs in Greece was the fact that this 27 years old guy, recently ( august if i'm not mistaken ) fabricated a new miracle of Paisios ( a story of how the mother of a young boy who had an accident and was in critical condition, visited the tomb of Paisios and the next day the boy miraculously came out of his coma ). So he spread word of his own fabricated miracle to a couple of Greek religious blogs and from then it was very easy for the most part of the (right,religious) Greek blogosphere and news site to reproduce the news. Hell, even a newspaper had a whole front page cover story on the miracle. The miracle was also front page in the Greek neo-nazi party ( golden dawn ) website
link with screenshots of the story where he confessed his prank: http://vlahatasamis.blogspot.gr/2012/08/blog-post_1999.html [blogspot.gr]
You can imagine now how the story ended. The guy came forward and said "gotcha, the miracle wasn't real, I just imagined it". So he actually trolled them and they bit hard. Of course that hurt a lot, and from that point it was only "logical" that those right-wing guys would ask for his arrest. The golden dawn party indeed brought the issue to the parliament
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December 21, 2012, well if you believe in the Mayans
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I think you mean 1997, October 1
The END DAY
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Heck no, they are doing just fine, thank you.
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Do Not Want.
An edit button is bad and easily abused. Here is a clue, how about you slow down and carefully read before posting? Shocking, I know , not having technology that allows you to be lazy.
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"The software isn't bad for lacking that feature, you're a bad person for wanting that feature!"
Tell me you're not an open-source dev.
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Damn you slashdot. An edit button may take you out of the wagon wheel era.
Adding an edit button would be blasphemous.
Hell, complaining about the lack of an edit button is pretty unpious. When was the last time you went to Cathedral? Don't lie, we're going to check.
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