DHS Best-and-Brightest STEM Program Under Fire 108
theodp writes "In mid-May, the Department of Homeland Security quietly expanded a program that allows foreign science, technology, engineering and math grads to work in the U.S. for 29 months without a work visa. 'Attracting the best and brightest international talent to our colleges and universities and enabling them to contribute to their professional growth is an important part of our nation's economic, scientific and technological competitiveness,' explained DHS Chief Janet Napolitano. But last week, Senator Chuck Grassley called on the GAO to 'fully investigate' the student visa program, citing reports of abuse and other concerns in his letter. Now, Computerworld reports that the DHS STEM Visa Extension Program continues to be dominated by Stratford University and the University of Bridgeport (as it was in 2010), prompting some tongues to wag. It is 'obvious to any reasonable person that the schools producing most of the OPT students are not prestigious research universities,' quipped policy analyst Daniel Costa, 'which means that many of the OPT students across the country are not in fact the "best and brightest."' While conceding that top students can come from lesser-known schools, 'those will be the exception to the rule,' argued Costa, who suggested the government should include performance metrics in the OPT program, such as grades and university rankings."
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I cannot see what the issue is: is it to sell this story as a problematic for patriots? USA was always standing for "acquiring the best" and this rule is here to exactly work this out, in this new era where xenophobia is getting a second, and IMHO rather unfortunate, wind.
If anything, this is patriotic. What, is anyone afraid that those people granted work without a VISA will make a run for it when their months are up, and give up their opportunities for high profile positions and hefty salaries to escape i
Re:LET THEM STAY (Score:4, Insightful)
Many of us are tired of the all the xenophilia that seems to have taken over our government and most of our institutions. Everything in the U.S. seems to be run for the benefit of anyone in the world except American citizens.
Every position held by one of these visa holders is a position that an American citizen does not hold. A position, remember, that is at an institution at least partially (if not wholly) supported by American taxpayers. More people are asking why our money is going to benefit other countries' citizens, instead of our own?
But it doesn't matter what argument I give; you'll call me racist anyway.
xenomania (Score:2)
I think xenophilia is a mild term - xenomania is a more appropriate description.
Btw, I'm a non-white Asian, and I approve of your message.
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Every position held by one of these visa holders is a position that an American citizen does not hold.
This belief is so common that economist's have a term for it: The Lump of Labor Fallacy [wikipedia.org].
If our educational system was able to teach even a single fact about economics, it would be that the economy is not a zero-sum game. Yet so many people don't even learn this one principle.
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And China IS making it that way.
China's trade surpluses are rapidly disappearing. The USA's trade deficits are not. If the rest of the world doesn't have a problem trading with China, and the USA runs large deficits with many countries other than China, maybe the root of the problem is in America and not China.
they are in a hurry to match their military build-up.
America's military spending is about twenty times what China spends.
Re:LET THEM STAY (Score:4, Interesting)
If America is indeed a meritocracy, that means then that Americans are not as qualified to hold that job as the foreigners are. So now you are faced with a couple of decisions:
* you make hiring decisions not based on merit, but based on whether a person is related to you. In other words, you turn the US from a meritocracy into an aristocracy.
* you decide that the foreigners are getting too much of a leg up, because any bonus to immigrants gives them too much of a leg up over Americans. In which case, you are tacitly admitting that the US is really just the same as all other countries, and American exceptionalism is dead.
* you decide that all economists are wrong, and that there really is just a static set of jobs available, that putting someone unqualified in a position has no impact on the overall economy, and by the way, isolationism works just splendidly.
* you decided that the economists might be right, but that you just don't like foreigners. In which case, you just proved the old saw that nobody hates new immigrants like old immigrants.
In other words: get the fuck out of my country. Oh, and all you upmodders - the same goes for you.
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Your argument fails at the very first assumption, that we are in a simple meritocracy.
The first point you miss is money:
If a foreigner (via this program, H1B visa, or any others) is only half-as-good as an American, but is willing to work for one third the pay ... well ...
Also consider the future, through trends established with a program like this. If we give outsource all the low-level tech jobs, low level American techs won't have a starting point. Not every college grad is going to immediately land
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Every position held by one of these visa holders is a position that an American citizen does not hold ... more people are asking why our money is going to benefit other countries' citizens, instead of our own?
The easy and obvious way to solve this problem is to give those people citizenship.
This is *NOT* about hiring the best (Score:5, Interesting)
The GAO has proved that 93% of visa workers do not work at the advanced level, and 54% of visa workers are entry level.
These visa programs are designed to replace US workers with cheaper offshore workers.
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"Computer-related H-1Bs have a median age of 27.4; 52% have less than 2 years of experience, and another 41% have 2-5 years."
Only 3% of a typical MSFT H-1B visa intake are US DoL level-four workers -- i.e., do work that requires independent judgment. Most H-1b use "level one" which is 17th percentile of U.S. wages -- $10k to $15k below what average-skilled Americans get paid. The 75th percent
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Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori...
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My country belongs to me and exclusivity protects my interests while giving away the store does not.
If YOU want to live in a Third World country, you have plenty of other options.
The reasons people want to LEAVE such countries are the same reasons we shouldn't let ALL of them in or we just duplicate the problems they fled in the first place!
Of course that doesn't concern you.
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The reasons people want to LEAVE such countries are the same reasons we shouldn't let ALL of them in or we just duplicate the problems they fled in the first place!
Sure, but TFA is decidedly not about letting "all" in - it's about letting the cream of the crop in. Which sounds like a sensible immigration policy for any country.
Though, really, what's needed is some reasonably efficient filter that doesn't let in people whose cultural baggage is outright incompatible with the basic tenets of the society they're immigrating to. Was it Netherlands that had recently introduced a "porn test" to screen out Islamist fundies? We need more of that kind of thing across the entir
Re:LET THEM STAY (Score:5, Insightful)
Hope you have a job. Because programs like this will insure that US graduates get to earn postdoc qualifications in burger-flipping while foreign students that are eager for jobs paying much more than they could get at home will take what employment there is.
Look around and see what other first-world countries are doing for immigration. Most have far more restrictive policies than the US does and is far, far harsher for anyone violating their laws. Overstay your visa in Germany and you will likely be arrested and shipped out of the country. Walk into Mexico and you will find that their border is defended by the Mexican Army, and they do defend their border vigorously, with armed response to invaders.
The US is still allowing huge numbers of legal immigrants in and these people are competing for the same jobs that US graduates are. Absolutely, we can employ cheaper foreign labor in all areas of employment - but we better figure out how to support the jobless that aren't going to get what jobs there are. You see, we finally have the economy that functions without a huge unjustifiable bubble - and at least 30% of the country is unemployed or underemployed. Meaning that STEM graduates are working at McDonalds because there simply aren't the STEM jobs to go around.
And we want to bring in more people for these jobs that will work cheaper? As I said, hope you have a job - because with programs like this you will be supporting 2-3 non-working people. There simply is no choice in the matter any more. We are going to have to return to permanent government support for the folks that aren't working.
Re:LET THEM STAY (Score:5, Insightful)
Hope you have a job. Because programs like this will insure that US graduates get to earn postdoc qualifications in burger-flipping while foreign students that are eager for jobs paying much more than they could get at home will take what employment there is.
Life isn't a zero-sum game. It's entirely possible for you and me to both have jobs.
Look around and see what other first-world countries are doing for immigration. Most have far more restrictive policies than the US does and is far, far harsher for anyone violating their laws. Overstay your visa in Germany and you will likely be arrested and shipped out of the country. Walk into Mexico and you will find that their border is defended by the Mexican Army, and they do defend their border vigorously, with armed response to invaders.
Wow, that explains why Mexico is so prosperous and stable.
The US is still allowing huge numbers of legal immigrants in and these people are competing for the same jobs that US graduates are. Absolutely, we can employ cheaper foreign labor in all areas of employment - but we better figure out how to support the jobless that aren't going to get what jobs there are. You see, we finally have the economy that functions without a huge unjustifiable bubble - and at least 30% of the country is unemployed or underemployed. Meaning that STEM graduates are working at McDonalds because there simply aren't the STEM jobs to go around.
Limiting the number of people isn't going to help. Like I mentioned before -- not a zero sum game. More people => more need for stuff => more jobs.
And we want to bring in more people for these jobs that will work cheaper?
Do you want to work in a field, picking vegetables? No? Are you willing to pay twice as much for all of your vegetables? No? Then stop making life even harder for the people with the worst jobs. Immigrants work most of our crap jobs because Americans *won't do them for any amounts of money*.
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We're bringing in STEM people on OPT visas to pick vegetables for us? Really?
The problem is that we're already making stuff using less labor, leaving lots of people unemployed no matter how much growing demand there is for even more stuff. In
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We're bringing in STEM people on OPT visas to pick vegetables for us? Really?
Reasonable point, but I think the answer is basically the same -- the vast majority of Americans don't go into engineering majors, and of those that do, a lot of them aren't any good at it. More competent people => larger/more successful companies => more jobs.
The problem is that we're already making stuff using less labor, leaving lots of people unemployed no matter how much growing demand there is for even more stuff. In our current economic system unemployment means poverty, and unemployment is pretty much guaranteed for an increasingly large fraction of the population. Bringing in even more labor certainly does not solve that problem.
We need to find something for all our "surplus labor" to do, so that they can be employed (hopefully doing something useful, not just busy-work making more disposable junk for people to consume), or we need to find some way to provide a decent living for growing masses of chronically unemployed or underemployed people (oh noes, socialism!).
I don't necessarily disagree here, although I think there's likely other (possibly bettter) solutions, like reducing the barrier to entry for small companies (currently, taxes make it incredibly expensive to start a small business).
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If you look at countries that are actually prospering (unlike Mexico), such as Canada and Australia and New Zealand, you'll find that they treat immigrants very differently based on their skill levels. People with no skills and education, they don't want in those countries, because they'll be a drain on their social-welfare systems. However, highly skilled people in highly-demanded professions, they roll out the red carpet for; engineers are one big sector for this. There's not enough "knowledge workers"
Re:LET THEM TAKE US JOBS!! (Score:3)
It is not as if the US is suffering it's highest long-term unemployment since the great depression, or anything like that.
The truth is: 93% of visa workers are ordinary people, doing ordinary jobs. The GAO has proved this.
Visa programs are not designed to let in the "best and brightest" they are designed to replace US workers with cheaper foreign workers.
Wow (Score:2)
Oh, DHS, is there anything you can't screw up?
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spending my tax money in a way antithetical to the betterment of the country, economy, etc., in order to improve the profit margins of certain industries? yes, I believe those could be termed evil profits. or at a minimum rather unethical profits if we don't want to paint with just black and white.
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Yep, I love how the "free market" "small government" fans are always defending profits that come solely because of government intervention, or from government handouts to specific industries.
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So Slashdot maintainers, I've never seen more spam in the comments than from MyCleanPC. It's probably about time you add a MyCleanPC moderation rating, and make it -5.
This will allow actual Slashdotters to continue to find valuable AC posts, and not have to see this bullshit any longer.
I'm starting to think the maintainers have a vested interest in seeing MyCleanPC proliferate based on the sheer number of spam comments. Fix it or lose a long time reader in the near future.
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Yeah, you know, I've always wondered why there isn't a mod option for "Spam", considering how often it shows up.
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Because you don't get mod points often and they don't want people wasting them on Spam, that's what the little flag in the bottom right is for these days. Obviously people use their mod points to kill it anyway, so it's probably a moot point, but I think that's the idea. And besides, 'offtopic' is accurate enough if you think about it.
But businesses don't need a few young geniuses... (Score:5, Insightful)
They need a cheap work force.
Granted young people from prestigious universities might be helpful doing research at US universities. But for inexperienced people to help the US companies, they need enough of them to depress wages.
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You don't think that technology, engineering and bio-engineering companies might be interested being able to hire the smartest people they can find anywhere in the world?
Why would they want such a thing? All their competitors are in US, so as long as those competitors don't have smart people, it's ok to hire stupid ones.
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We already have 320 million people in this country! I'd really, really be interested in knowing what skill set isn't represented here, such that we need to import it. Yes, I understand that we're discussing highly skilled people here. However, highly skilled isn't necessarily interchangeable with highly in demand. We already have plenty of Ph.D level people in STEM fields currently unemployed. What makes the foreign talent so much more attractive?
Re:But businesses don't need a few young geniuses. (Score:4, Interesting)
What makes the foreign talent so much more attractive?
Because when hired under a visa program, they can be strong-armed into lower wages under threat of letting the visa lapse.
Because there's a continued assault on STEM education here in the states, an utter lack of parent involvement and encouragement, and a rather pitiful showing by students' test scores.
Take your pick, but the right answer is "all of the above".
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Yes, but people who do science are supposed to do it because they love it! Not for the money. So they should be happy to receive a pittance, because the people in management are doing their jobs because they love money, so they deserve to earn more of it, by giving puny salaries to the scientists.
</sarcasm>
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That cute, lazy, rich, poor, gifted 20 something might recall his/her time in the US and buy up big as some CEO, political leader or allow a deal as a lawyer in their 50's/60's.
It cuts past left/right/faith/dictator/nationalism as it was part of their life. The US know to invest in that gift long term.
The US is producing generational 'friends' around the world i.e. foreign talent has potential, another US grad from an el
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It's not just the PhDs their bringing in (and unemployment in high tech fields requiring advanced degrees is a good deal lower than the rest.) Still, FTFA:
"With youth unemployment being as high as it is, the Obama administration should be focusing on attracting the smartest immigrants that will add value and complement the workforce," said Costa.
"Adding workers with ordinary skills from vocational schools that few people have ever heard of - just because they hold STEM degrees - does nothing to further that
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For instance, OPT employers aren't subject to the same rules governing H-1B workers, who must be paid the prevailing wage.
The U.S. has approved about 35,274 OPT extensions and denied only 613 since the program was started.
What about U.S.Citizens (Score:4, Insightful)
Public Universities should not be accepting foreign students over U.S. students. They may say they want the "prestige" of having a diverse student body or say that they have some hot shot kid from one of the Stan countries, but no matter. They were created for and their job is to provide a higher education for the American public. Especially since they are largely financed by U.S. Taxpayers.
Private Universities? As long as they are let in under the rules and not given precedence over those who have been in line, fine, go ahead.
It seems that most of the institutions of higher learning have forgotten what their purpose is and instead strive to have the most bling... people or programs or things.
Re:What about U.S.Citizens (Score:4, Interesting)
I went to a state school and foreign students were split roughly into three equal-sized groups. 1) The ones who avoided anyone else not from their part of the world, thus not helping the school's cultural diversity 2) The ones who "Americanized" a little too hard and spent most of them time drunk, arrested or deported and 3) The ones who actually helped the goal of spreading diversity by experiencing American cultural while still introducing others to their own. Of course, I'd take all of them over the mobs of inner city kids they shipped up from NYC to go to school for free who inevitably flunked out after the second semester.
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Foreign students pay full out of state tuition which helps keep the public universities afloat financially. If that wasn't the case then the tuition would rise for all students, which would lead to only rich students getting in. There is a balance to be had between too many foreign students and higher in-state tuition. Lets not get all xenophobic and lose our ability to reason.
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Nice try troll.
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U.S. out of state students pay out of state tuition. There are more U.S. out of state students than foreign students. Nice try troll.
Not really. Many of them become state citizens after the first year, ergo paying in-state tuition. Granted that the OP is exaggerating foreign students' contribution to keeping tuition low. BUT so are you. At the risk of bringing up a cliche, the truth is in the middle.
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OK, while the sentiment of my post is still true. It's off topic because I have not had my coffee and totally fucked up.
Please mod me off topic.
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Re:What about U.S.Citizens (Score:4, Insightful)
It isn't that unreasonable to be upset at what the article is about; there are abuses of the OPT visa, and those abuses ought be fixed.
At the same time, it is important to understand what letting foreign students and giving them a shot at employment does. A lot of the US's economic lead comes from the fact that we basically imported the best of Europe's population just prior to and after WWII. The current programs extend this: essentially steal the best and most talented people from around the world by providing them with good opportunities.
I did my graduate work at a large & relatively prestigious state school; I was the only US citizen in my research group. Everyone else was an immigrant. Except for one person who got lucky and won the green card lottery (literally a lottery) while still a student, every single one of them used the OPT visa at some point. They've all gone on to make valuable contributions to the US, as research scientists, faculty, and founders of a start up. The US is better off for them immigrating, and becoming permanent residents.
So you should be angry when there are abuses of these sorts of visa programs. If there's too much abuse, these programs will be cut back, or even cancelled, and we'll stop getting the benefit of stealing the world's most talented people.
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They were created for and their job is to provide a higher education for the American public.
And considering how retarded the majority of American public is now, in a decade those universities would teach alphabet if not for foreigners.
What about U.S.Citizens? They study Marketing. (Score:4, Insightful)
Public Universities should not be accepting foreign students over U.S. students. They may say they want the "prestige" of having a diverse student body or say that they have some hot shot kid from one of the Stan countries, but no matter. They were created for and their job is to provide a higher education for the American public. Especially since they are largely financed by U.S. Taxpayers.
Private Universities? As long as they are let in under the rules and not given precedence over those who have been in line, fine, go ahead.
It seems that most of the institutions of higher learning have forgotten what their purpose is and instead strive to have the most bling... people or programs or things.
Let me stop you right there with three points.
1. No one is saying that US students are passed over foreign ones. Do you have proof that this is what is happening?
2. The truth of the matter is that US students are not going in droves into STEM fields at the 4-year level, let alone the grad level. This is the truth. Suck on it and deal with it. The US STEM intelligentsia is disproportionally composed of foreign-born nationals. US students do not get passed over. They simply chose to study for Marketing or Creative Writing.
3. Why not use tax payers to get the best and brightest from abroad to study here and become US nationals? That's better use of of taxpayers money (my money, your money) than funding yet another graduate in Creative Writing burdened by a $100K loan.
It was a foreign-born citizen who created USB, and another one who helped create google. And many more created a lot more shit while the rest of us were content studying for useless degrees, while complaining why US students get passed over (which is not true.)
A little bit more perspective and a little less of this stupid faux victim look-at-me syndrome is what you need.
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It is really bad in California where you have been getting some news about it, even heard about it where I live in Europe.
The reason is that that foreign students pay the full tuition costs and since states have been cutting funding the foreign students are cash cows.
You could make the case that with the money they are paying they are not taking slots that US students would of had because the slots would not
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Public Universities should not be accepting foreign students over U.S. students.
Foreign students usually pay full tutition. So by admitting more foreign students, the universities can afford to admit more U.S. students, who usually have much of their tuition subsidized by the taxpayers. The limiting factor is money, not the number of chairs currently in the classrooms.
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Let's face it, American higher education is all about the money.
The Horror of Bipartisanship (Score:4, Informative)
A major expansion of the program occurred in 2008 under Bush and is now expanded again by Obama. Over 400000 OPT Visas from 2006-2010, so this is the same scale at H1B. The DHS press release has the usual, if questionable, justification: this is only for the best of the best of the best and there are no US workers with these skills.
Lies and quiet scheming have replaced honest discussion with US citizens.
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Lies and quiet scheming have replaced honest discussion with US citizens.
How can you replace something that never existed?
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There is effectively only one political party in the US now.
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I do find it peculiar that in a nation that already has 320 million people in it, none of them qualify as the "best and the brightest".
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Assume for the sake of argument that nobody in the US really does have these skills. Wouldn't the best solution be to fix that problem, rather than just importing in people with those skills?
Of course, what they really mean is that nobody willing to work for just above minimum wage has those skills. And if they succeed in filling positions at those wages the supply will drop even lower.
This is like typical corporate thinking - hire for your immediate needs, and when your needs change fire your existing em
Why would anyone be interested in this? (Score:4, Insightful)
Let me rephrase that: "Why would anyone qualified be interested in that?". Sure, 29 months sounds long, but if you have to leave at the end, it is basically wasted time. The "best and brightest" do typically not fall for that kind of scam. In any sane country, you can extend your stay and, after a time, apply for citizenship with good probability of getting it.
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From what I gather after that period of time you should have actually applied for and received your student visa.
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!student visa. Doh.
Perm resident or work visa.
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"Why would anyone qualified be interested in that?". Sure, 29 months sounds long, but if you have to leave at the end, it is basically wasted time.
It buys you time to get in on three more visa lotteries, and it also gives you 29 months to try to find an employer that can get you an H-1B.
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Lots of people who really are 'the best and brightest" take OPT; when used correctly it is a "bridge" visa to something more permanent. E.g. a student graduates, takes 90 days (or less) to find a job, starts at an employer under OPT, the employer starts the H-1B application process, and within 6-9 months the students qualifies for H-1B. This is especially useful for people who graduate after the current year's H-1B allotment has run out; they can't possibly successfully apply until the next year, so the
MOD parent up (Score:2)
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Also, the 'prestigious research universities' are probably sitting back waiting for the 'best and brightest' to apply, while Stratford and Bridgeport probably have people actively trying to promote and entice students to come and avail of the opportunity.
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Still much smarter (Score:2)
than your average immigrant.
Who Benefits? (Score:5, Informative)
American companies complaining they can't hire resources in these fields (without mentioning that they want to pay jack shit) perhaps?
Strikes me as a bit of an H1B dodge...
From the press release (Score:2)
>> These reforms reflect the Obama administration's ongoing commitment to promote policies that embrace talented students from other countries ...while ensuring talented students and workers in the United States continue to get screwed.
How much longer under November again?
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Unfortunately, this started under the Bush Administration, so I'm pretty sure that screwing talented students and workers in the United States is one of the things that both parties can agree on.
Plain Wrong! (Score:2, Interesting)
There is a lot of false on this thread. An OPT is crucial for the best and the brightest. A F-1 student is not granted the intent to immigrate. They are considered as visitors. Even during OPT they are F-1 students who are supposed to return home after the OPT. OPT status lets the students move jobs and companies don't have to pay through their nose to get someone who is working elsewhere working on an OPT.
A H1-b on the other hand has a dual intent. Every single time an employee leaves a company and switch
No you are plain wrong. (Score:2)
Don't you think US employers prefer this slave labor? If so, then it's hardly "xenophobic" to realize that US workers are being replaced by such "slave labor" - your own words.
Visa workers are not "immigrants" they are temporary labor. An immigrant is somebody who
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These visa workers are far from the "best and brightest" they are ordinary workers, taking ordinary jobs
I personally know several people who graduated with me and who now work at big tech firms like IBM/Google/Oracle/Apple/Facebook on a work visa and they are definitely not ordinary - which is subjective anyway. Importantly - not only do they get paid the same as US citizens, but they are more expensive to hire because of the legal fees involved in their hiring. So, what evidence do you have for your claims?
This while the US suffers it worst long-term unemployment since the great depression.
The largest class of unemployed people in the US does not compare to these workers. The vast majority d
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Visa workers are not "immigrants" they are temporary labor. An immigrant is somebody who leave his/her home country and permenantly settles in another country.
H1-B is "dual intent" (to immigrate) visa for a reason. A lot of people on H1-B come to the country so that they can apply for a green card here. The only other choice a typical skilled worker has to get American citizenship is green card lottery, which is, well, a lottery - it cannot be relied upon as a definite path to citizenship.
Give them a special visa (Score:1)
The mistake was making a program that
"allows foreign science, technology, engineering and math grads to work in the U.S. for 29 months without a work visa"
It's much better politics to create a special "29 month education investment repayment work visa" to "allow certain foreign science, technology, engineering, and math graduates to use their valuable skills in the United States, thereby improving American industries and the Untied States economy."
Same result, less political opposition.
attracting the best and brightest "spies?" (Score:2)
"Attracting the best and brightest international talent to our colleges and universities and enabling them to contribute to their professional growth is an important part of our nation's economic, scientific and technological competitiveness," explained DHS Chief Janet Napolitano.
Going back to original topic of bringing in foreign nationals, I think real problem is universities are getting too used to them paying full tuition and pricing out domestic students. Then once we educate these foreign nationals, we kick them out (then their native country gets benefit of their education).
But on question of spies, other countries don't need to send spies because we export our technology and techniques
29 months (Score:2)
That's about the right amount of time to run them through the espionage training program at Langley. And to teach them how to use a shoe phone, the cone of silence and other equipment.
a visa is a PRIVILEGE, not a right (Score:1)
1. You must not be in the habit of initiating force or fraud, or advocating such. That's why every applicant ought to pass a proper background investigation.
2. You should expect to have to prove that you're good at something people in the USA want. Do you have an IQ in the top half of a percent? Good. Do you have 5 significant pa