Lexmark Sues 24 Companies Over Toner-Cartridge Patents 294
eldavojohn writes "Remember back in 2003, when Lexmark tried to use the DMCA to stop aftermarket toner cartridges from being produced? Well, they're now suing 24 companies for infringing on 15 patents they have on toner cartridges. The article also notes that Lexmark has been filing lawsuits over patent infringement on formulas for their inks."
Formulas? (Score:4, Insightful)
How can a formula be patented when you can't even copyright a recipe (and that's all ink is, a recipe of dyes)?
As for patents on toner cartridges, I imagine if they were specific enough to get a patent for it (I know, I know, I'm not new around here, I know stupid patents get granted all the time), chances are they wouldn't need to worry about after-market producers.
Re:Formulas? (Score:5, Informative)
Cheers
JE
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Re:Formulas? (Score:5, Informative)
I think you are correct. See below exert:
How do I protect my recipe?
A mere listing of ingredients is not protected under copyright law. However, where a recipe or formula is accompanied by substantial literary expression in the form of an explanation or directions, or when there is a collection of recipes as in a cookbook, there may be a basis for copyright protection. Note that if you have secret ingredients to a recipe that you do not wish to be revealed, you should not submit your recipe for registration, because applications and deposit copies are public records. See FL 122, Recipes.
Source: U.S. Copyright office [copyright.gov]
Re:Formulas? (Score:5, Insightful)
What amazes me more is that you can patent the business model of making incredibly shitty, slapshod products with pickup rollers that invariably break by the 250th page.
Next they'll have a business model patent on convincing companies like Dell to throw their reputation down the toilet by rebranding the aforementioned shitty products and selling them with their own brand name slapped on.
Re:Formulas? (Score:4, Insightful)
What amazes me more is that you can patent the business model of making incredibly shitty, slapshod products with pickup rollers that invariably break by the 250th page.
Well, it's not far from patenting a downright shady business model, seeing as they're blatantly using the patent system to block third-party cartridges. One assumes that the actual patent as submitted does not read:
"US Patent 1234567890: Mechanism to con the consumer into spending rather more money than they had hoped by forcing third-party consumable manufacturers out of the market".
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the facts are not copyrighted, the particular incarnation can be.
So someone else can sell their own recipe book with the same recipe, they just can't copy-paste it from yours.
"substantial literary expression in the form of an explanation or directions," such as a cookbook, can be copyrighted but that a mere list of ingredients cannot receive that protection.
-http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/03/AR2006010300316.html
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He's correct. They aren't. Any food engineer could look at a product and it's packaging and tell you how it's done. Even calling it reverse-engineering is a bit of a push.
It's all about the brand for packaged food companies. That's why there are so many commercials for breakfast cereals and candy to convince people that only real Coco-Pops taste like Coco-Pops.
There have been many psychological studies to show just how stupid and gullible people are in this regard.
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Either that or the FOSS projects become just like them (saying who can and cannot have their "free" software).
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Not only can you patent an ink recipe as a method, but you can also patent the ink itself as a composition of matter. Really, this is the sort of thing that patents have traditionally covered for hundreds of years. The real question is whether there's prior art out there that didn't come up during examination.
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Lexmark are (in)famous for this.
A toner cartridge is just a plastic box full of wet ink (for an inkjet) or dry toner (for a laser), right?
Wrong.
If you're Lexmark, it also contains a chip which does various (patented) things that the printer uses to confirm it's got a genuine Lexmark cartridge installed. Abracadabra, you can now use patent protection to ensure that only your exorbitantly expensive cartridges get used.
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If you couldn't patent a formula, how could Monsanto patent its chemicals, or Merck patent its drugs? Now, note that patents ane copyrights are two entirely different animals. Patents last twenty years and cover inventions and processes, while copyright lasts longer than a human being and covers "writings".
You can't copyright a recipe, but you can copyright its presentation. I have various cookbooks, all of them have copyrights -- but the copyright is on the book, not the recipes inside it.
Lexmark still sells printers? (Score:3, Interesting)
JE
Re:Lexmark still sells printers? (Score:5, Informative)
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Every single Lexmark printer we've bought in the past 6 years died within 18-months (not by my choice obviously). That's including the cheap inkjets and their bigger workgroup lasers. Most of the inkjets simply melted their power supplies. They also sucked that really expensive ink down really quick.
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I don't mean to debunk anecdotal evidence with more of the same, but I have a Lexmark z2940 wireless printer here that I just setup to use wireless: downloaded the drivers (running Windows 7), installed them, plugged into the USB cable when prompted to so it could configure the wireless, joined my wireless network with my key, unplugged the USB cable when prompted, then finished the setup. Prints fine using wireless.
Except for the fact that the ink cartridges are either empty or dried up...
Re:Lexmark still sells printers? (Score:4, Informative)
I don't mean to debunk anecdotal evidence with more of the same, but I have a Lexmark z2940 wireless printer .... Prints fine using wireless.
Except for the fact that the ink cartridges are either empty or dried up...
You mean the z2420? Looking at Walmart online, the printer costs $39, the black ink cartridge is $30 and a color cartridge is $32. You validated the comments that the original ink cartridges are only partially filled (ala HP) and dry up really fast.
Most of the reviews on this model are horrible, such as CNET giving it 1.5/5 stars and most comments talking about poor printouts and jamming.
Somehow I don't think you've debunked much yet. Let me know if it lives past a year.
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Unless you buy dot matrix.
I have a pair of industrial Lexmark wide carriage printers that only cost 40 bucks for a cartridge that last for 40k triple carbonless sheets($2k for the printer, though). Actually came with the circuit layout, diagnostic procedures, and replacement instructions for every piece, including those that need soldering.
Alas, $700 for a motherboard, which I found out after a storm found its way through the onboard serial port. Went for a a $900 refurb instead, as I might be switching t
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Brother makes good lasers/leds imo.
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That's because HP appears to care about Linux. They release real open-source drivers that can be included by all Linux distros, even ones like Debian and Fedora that have very strict rules about licensing.
HP products maybe aren't the best value for money, but anyone who cares about open source drivers should definitely consider taking their custom to one of the few companies that gets it.
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Brother uses PostScript. But they also have Linux support and drivers on their site.
We had a workgroup Brother DCP series printer and it was very nice, for both Windows and Linux.
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Samsung does as well. I'm very happy with my $100 wifi connectable laser.
Re:Lexmark still sells printers? (Score:4, Insightful)
Perhaps it's precisely because they don't sell many printers anymore that they resort to this.
In any case, it tells me loud and clearly what printer not to buy next.
I'm thinking of retiring my Epson R1800 soon -- any good recommendations for a large format photo quality printer?
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a cannon or an epson, or an HP.
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Canon Pro 9500 Mark II is a great machine.
If you are looking for something larger than this, I don't know but I would still go Canon on for it.
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I'm thinking of retiring my Epson R1800 soon -- any good recommendations for a large format photo quality printer?
I really wouldn't bother. Find a reliable lab and send it there.
You won't have as much control over the finished article but you won't be wasting time tearing your hair out trying to get a half-decent print. Lab machines are built to do one thing and do it well - churn out print after print cost-effectively, reliably and quickly. By and large they're pretty good at it.
Inkjet printers are built to do one thing and do it well. Extract absurd quantities of money from you reliably and quickly. By and large
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Older HPs (Score:3, Insightful)
Anything built by HP pre-Carly is pretty much a tank, even the early DeskJets.
Please... (Score:5, Insightful)
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Oh, almost certainly. And possibly any emoticons on the sides of the ink cartridges as well. Ink formulae - that might be a stronger case, provided it is not a trivial derivative of any standard or historic ink. However, an ink formula can't be both patented and trade secret at the same time. That's a no-no. Has anyone actually looked at their ink patents to see if they're violating the patent rules there? (Dumb question - no, nobody has; yes, they are.)
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Can I at least accept the spaces between the words in a Slashdot summary? :)
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There are basically two kinds of ink used in inkjet printers. Solvent-based and water-based.
Solvent-based inks are generally used for the kind of inkjet printers where some resistive element heats up the ink to make a tiny bubble of gas to push out the ink. Water-based inks are typically used where some mechanical device is used to push out the ink, such as a piezoelectric element. Since the majority of printers are of the resistive variety, most third-party inks are solvent based.
Epson printers are of the
GOOD !! I'M TIRED OF CHEAP INK RIDING COATTAILS !! (Score:2, Funny)
Lexmark, HP, Canon, and Kodak all deserve the money gotten for their ink. It's only fair. I say, and I am sure most of slashdot is with me, what's GOOD FOR LEXMARK IS GOOD FOR CONSUMERS !!
Lexmark on Linux (Score:5, Funny)
I called their tech support after trying to get one of their printers to work on Linux. This was before I found out that they use a non-standard and proprietary way to communicate between computer and printer.
The tech asks me if I'm using Windows XP or Vista. I say I'm using Linux. He's says "Windows Linux?" "No, just Linux." "Oh, okay, Windows 98." From there he proceeded to give me help based off the idea that I was running Microsoft Windows 98 Linux Edition.
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When people don't understand what you're talking about, they assume stuff and then try to help you anyway [xkcd.com].
Re:Lexmark on Linux (Score:5, Informative)
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I disagree. Decent GPS units give quite good directions, if you filter them using your head. I may simply be unwilling to spend the time noting every twist-and-turn down. In the old days, people used city maps to look up an address, and presumably you wouldn't consider it insulting. I still have such an archaic map in my car and use it occasionally. It's easier to browse it than the map on the GPS.
If I prefer to use a map, or a GPS, it doesn't mean I'm sociopathic. It may simply mean that I've been around p
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is intimately familiar with the best way to get there
The problem is that "intimately familiar" doesn't mean the same to everyone. Have you ever tried to get directions from someone who hasn't got a clue what streets are named, only that they turn left at the corner with the green gas station, then right at the tree that looks kind of like their grandpa?
The only thing more infuriating is the person who lists every intersection you go straight through. "Next you'll come to Crystal Falls Drive." "So I turn r
GPS are only as good as the map data and some time (Score:2)
GPS are only as good as the map data and some time that data does not show
it's a non truck road.
it's been closes off.
the ramps where re routed and you can't go that way any more and you have to take a different way to get there.
They reworked a one way systems map does not show the new way.
A easier and better way is not in the map yet.
and many other things.
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only that they turn left at the corner with the green gas station, then right at the tree that looks kind of like their grandpa?
That's how Lassie found Grandpa, you insensitive clod.
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Actually, a GPS is like a religion. Follow me here. If you put all your faith in the voice from the sky, it will see you home safely. As soon as you start to doubt and second guess it, to ask "is this really giving me the best route?" -- it stops working and you end up going the wrong way.
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I don't know about you, but unless I know an area well myself I can't keep more than two or three steps of driving directions in my head. Potentially writing it all down works, but that presumes I know which bits of the information are the important ones. "Turn left at the red maple on elm where the speed bumps end" will probably get transcribed as "Left at maple - Elm bumps Stop." Ten minutes later, looking at that in a car, I might see a big red tree sail by, wonder which elm tree becomes the maple, an
Re:Lexmark on Linux (Score:5, Funny)
Or, if you're Linus Torvalds, Windows Me.
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in capitalist America Linus Torvalds, Windows Me.
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In soviet Russia Bill Gates, GNU you!
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What is that I don't even
One more company takes the patent troll route (Score:2)
One more company takes the patent troll route after finding out they are incapable of manufacturing something worth owning in the first place. Unfortunately HP printers are approaching Lexmark quality levels and not the other way around. I hate both companies, but obviously avoid Lexmark like the plague. I usually don't even bother trying to troubleshoot them or buy new roller kits -- I just replace the lexmarks with HPs.
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HP Lasers, haven't really had negative issues with, relatively speaking.
Second that.
My only 'complaint' with some of my older (15+ year) HP laserjets are that they still work great yet it's damn near impossible to find toner in town for them anymore.
Those things are built like tanks.
uh, let's see, how you say in Engrish... (Score:2)
"Bastardze?"
Same problem as software: compatibilty (Score:5, Insightful)
I usually ignore stories about hardware patents, but this one highlights a problem that exists in software patents: interoperability is essential.
Microsoft can develop a wonky filesystem (FAT), and use their market power to force it on everyone. When they finally realise that 8-letter filenames is a broken idea, they add a fix, patent the fix, and sue people who use the fix.
That fix isn't patentable because it's valuable, it's simply valuable because it's patented. It's an arbitrary idea, not necessarily better than any other solution (of avoiding the problem in the first place!), but it becomes a must-have because it's the idea Microsoft chose to implement.
Same with Word. Microsoft patents a few features in their file format and they're essential. You develop your own file format and patent some features, and they just get avoided by Micrsoft and nobody cares about your patents. How good your patents are, or how they compare to Microsoft's patents, is of no consequence.
And so it is with Lexmark. They make cartridges in a certain way. Might be good, might be wonky. You can patent a better idea, but it's useless because you're not looking for "best", you're looking for "compatible".
swpat.org is a publicly editable wiki, help with developing these arguments is very welcome.
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> that's not what happened. [...] People used FAT because it did what they wanted
Microsoft had a dominant position on the desktop. Being incompatible with Microsoft would have been a show-stopper. Microsoft's filesystem was FAT, so if you wanted to be compatible, with then-current Windows and will all future versions, then you use FAT.
For your disagreement, a link to a contradictory story would be very interesting. Or if you don't have a link (and I won't hold it against you, given that I've no
A nice advertisement... (Score:3, Interesting)
A nice advertisement for what not to buy, thanks Lexmark.
Anyway, for those looking for alternatives, Brother doesn't chip their cartridges, and the ink is not criminally expensive. Anyone know of other brands?
Another option is to buy a continuous ink system; often these include compatible chips so you can bypass the manufacturer. Though, finding good CIS and quality inks may be somewhat troublesome. Any suggestions here?
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I bought a Brother printer a few months ago when my Canon printer became irreparably clogged. It has worked quite well for me so far. The ink even comes in individual per-color cartridges.
Re:A nice advertisement... (Score:4, Interesting)
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The Magnusson Moss Warranty Act does not let them (Score:3, Informative)
The Magnusson Moss Warranty Act does not let them void the Warranty so they just try this BS to lock out the 3rd party stuff.
What if a car maker pulled this on a radio interface so you are locked in to there radio and can't install your own. What about remote starters?
In car DVD and TV systems?
Patent 1 (Score:2)
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speaking of gold, just how does printer ink compare for price, ounce for ounce, with gold?
And really, how much can it cost to make the stuff? It's little wonder that with such an insane profit margin that they get litigious, they have all the money in the world to play patent bully and feed their sharks.
New Title: 24 Reasons Not To Buy A Lexmark (Score:5, Insightful)
After all, that's what it boils down to.
Can't beat the competition - sue them. What this tells me is that Lexmark doesn't have a good enough value proposition on their replacement toners. If they offered even close to equal value to the knockoffs, or the knockoffs had a bad rep for damaging people's printers, there wouldn't be a problem.
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24 reasons not to buy not only a Lexmark, but in fact any printer that interrogates security chips in cartridges.
Amen, Brother.
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Why would you assume that people using a "Lexxmark" toner cartridge that is half the price would not sue Lexmark if their printer subsequently failed? I know plenty of people that would believe the printer was obviously defective if it failed to properly accept and use whatever toner was put in it.
After all, if your expensive replacable-ink-cartridge pen fails to operate it must be defective, no matter what sort of ink cartridge is used, right? The fact that the printer might be a little bit more complica
Summary in Typo (Score:2)
The article also notes that HP has been filing lawsuits over ink patents.
Brother printers are your friends. (Score:4, Insightful)
No chips in cartridges!
What Lexmark is fighting about is most likely not the cartridges themselves as containers of ink, but rather the chips. Makers of third-party cartridges have to reverse-engineer Lexmark's chips which prevent users from refilling cartridges.
You can fight this nonsense by not buying Lexmark, Canon, HP, Epson, etc.
Crap like this (Score:3, Interesting)
Crap like this is why my family doesn't even -have- a working printer. Instead we print the natural way; bring the file to work and print it there. Plus it's free!
Seriously though, once tablets are more or less ubiquitous in a professional office it will trickle down to the point where they're giving the ink away for free just to sell a printer again.
Screw Lexmark... Get a Brother (Score:3, Informative)
Brother is making some great printers these days, and have Linux support for almost all of them. Linux Support = support for CUPS, LPD and SANE. Many of the drivers are GPL, so you can get code from Brother's website. Many of the drivers are in Ubuntu's repos, so most of the time you can just apt-get.
Most print features are implemented. Also, Brother's ink is not chipped, and you can buy genuine Brother ink for about $9/cartridge or get third party ink for about $3 per cartridge (you can probably refill, too, but for $3 per, why mess with it). The cleaning cycles don't tap the ink on Brother printers the way they do on Lexmark either. I had a Lexmark years ago that would get about 40 pages out over one month and need $60 worth of ink.
The only thing with Brother is that their printers are $10-$20 more than the comparable Lexmark or Brother, but you'll get you $20 back on the first round of ink.
Evidently you've not shopped for a laser printer (Score:2)
Evidently you've not shopped for a laser printer recently. Toner isn't any cheaper. I think they migrated the laser printers to inkjet printer model some time ago. Cost of toner cartridge today can go over a hundred dollars easily. Some manufacturers even have built in page counters on toner cartridges that would refuse to print once certain page count is reached, irrespective of the actual amount of toner remaining in the cartridge.
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Yes, except that the toner cartridges can print 10,000 pages.
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The cost per page for toner is less than the cost per page for ink. For exa
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I bought a samsung clx-3175, disobeyed the instructions on maximum weight paper stock (I bought some thick kodak glossy photo print paper, and put it in the paper tray, one sheet at a time, on top of a stack of ordinary paper), and the prints are REALLY nice. The paper makes all the difference.
Print it, frame it, nobody will be able to tell the difference.
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All Power to the Glorious Corporation!
Really, do you think that dropping all government regulation of industry is a good thing?
Re:copyrights, patents, all must be abolished. (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm a bit more pragmatic than most libertarian minded people, but feel that citizen activism, and civics are part og what a free market is... I do think government has its place though. I do think process and design patents (including all software) should be limited to 5 years, as a special class of patent, that copyright law should return to sanity, 20 years, and renewable once if owned solely by the original owner(s) and all original owners are living persons (not companies) and that trademarks should be used for thier original purpose, not bullying or fair use in comparisons.
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Certainly not, but at this point they're apathetic and ignorant. Never mind that the GP was suggesting we basically hand the reins of power over to corporations which are way more powerful than any one individual.
Read my above statement.
Because there are so, so many to choose from.
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Certainly not, but at this point they're apathetic and ignorant. Never mind that the GP was suggesting we basically hand the reins of power over to corporations which are way more powerful than any one individual.
You are severely mistaken. The government is ran by banks/insurance companies/military industrial complex/big pharma/food/energy/mining/etc.
They government is completely ran by these corporations. This shouldn't have happened, but it did. So while you are saying I am for corporations taking over, I am arguing the government today consists of corporations already, and those corporations are using government power to keep themselves monopolies and to bail themselves out. What you do not see, is that the US
Re:copyrights, patents, all must be abolished. (Score:4, Insightful)
it's certainly not for lack of trying! take the RIAA for instance: they've been on a "education" campaign in schools for years now, trying to convince kids that copyright law essentially means the RIAA wins, no ifs, ands, or buts.
or like in health insurance and big pharma, where the average citizen simply lacks the needed specialized education to understand complex medical terminology.
and history has borne out that when a corporation or similar entity has unbridled freedom, they WILL do whatever they want to establish their own economic and political dominance. let's look at Microsoft: they essentially HAD an unregulated monopoly, up until the Fed (and the EU) came and put a stop to it. the government solutions were STILL ineffectual; Microsoft simply adapted (and i'm treading dangerously close to Gates of Borg here), and there's really still no viable OS alternative save Mac OS. it took Apple and Google to knock Microsoft down a peg. and both of those companies have really problematic practices, too.
government regulation is NECESSARY. there's a fine balance, but leave corporations alone and they WILL abuse the people. stockholders don't care so long as they make profit. with government, at least we can vote abusive politicians out, no capital required.
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Re:copyrights, patents, all must be abolished. (Score:4, Insightful)
"I mean, the only reason that unionization wasn't more effective earlier on is because the corp's used the government to bully strikers."
And without laws protecting workers any given company can just fire union members. Enough companies doing it and people won't join a union because they need to eat.#
"If more consumers were well informed they'd buy smarter."
And with less regulation companies would just lie more. The well informed consumer is a myth now and would be even more so in a world with less regulation.
Your IP reforms I agree with though.
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First, please give an example of one market that has ever been free of taxes, laws and regulations. Now that we have the reality that free markets never have and never will exist we can get real.
Although I am no fan of American car companies I am aware that these companies tend to be part of our national defense supply chain. Without them we would not be able to defend ourselves. Then there is the issue of economic ruin for eve
Let me get this straight... (Score:2)
Your proposed solution to our current economic problems is to become a communist nation? (not to be confused with a Communist nation)
-Rick
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So how are those anarchy regions of the world doing?
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But why is government helping corporations or anybody for that matter with 'trade secrets' and basically getting involved in fixing monopolies by killing off competition? That's the question. The answer is of-course because people with money want this and people in gov't are willing to take the bribes and the rest don't understand how they've been just had.
We should not care about trade secrets, we shouldn't be in business helping to create monopolies. We should promote any competition that's possible, we
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Nope. Trade secrets, patents and copyrights are orthogonal concepts, they cover separate issues. Patents used to provide insight -- to the point where HP would publish firmware to their instruments within a patent, these days the ratio of signal to noise is so bad that you can't tell much. Patents and copyrights, in the U.S., were created to provide a time-limited monopoly to further development of useful arts and sciences. Trade secrets are there to protect know-how from being sold out by employees.
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The theory on a patent is that anyone skilled in the art - an engineer for machinery, a chemist for drugs, etc. - would be able to build the object using the information in the patent. Now it's not the engineers and chemists that write them, it's the corporate lawyers. So rather than "heat @ 97deg C for 30 minutes" you get "apply heat for an extended period of time". Of course, only 97 deg C for 30 min works, but by not telling you that, they keep a trade secret reality while getting protection in case it t
Re:Complete the limerick ... (Score:5, Funny)
Who said to a purchasing moaner
"If you like it or not
This lock-in we've got
Will give all the lawyers a boner."
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Colour laser printers are under $200, and the toner cartridges last a hell of a long time. Why is anyone buying ink-based printers?
Because color laser 'photo quality" prints look like modern inkjet prints set to "fast draft"?
As said before, Wagreens/Walmart are really the best option for really nice photo prints... but at home, a good quality in jet on glossy "photo paper" has a great deal of wife approval factor.