ABC Showed IPs of Chatroom Participants 84
Blob Pet writes "The Associated Press reports that ABC News published the IP addresses of those who participated in an 'Internet news broadcast' Monday with Sam Donaldson. It prevents someone like Bill Clinton from pretending to be an average American and preaching how great the President is on an online forum hehe."
There's also a privacy concern or two here, as the article points out, and IMO ABC booted it on this one. Would "Mark from DC" have been as free with his opinions if he'd known his bosses could easily trace him? I doubt it.
But President Clinton *is* a great man (Score:2)
Sign me,
Anonymous Coward
(no relation to the President - honest!)
--
It takes a village to raise a child.
Donations for my campaign gratefully accepted.
hilary@whitehouse.gov
I really hate this stuff (Score:2)
First of all...from a security standpoint, it's completely useless since any eight-year-old who reads
All it does is post the IPs of people who probably aren't smart enough to know how to hide them...which pretty much paints a big red bulls eys on them for the BO/NetBus crowd.
Back on my dial-up ISP days, I didn't care if my IP was out there since all I had to do was disconnect to get a new one. But now having a cable modem, the last thing I want is for some bored wanna-be-cr/hacker to port scan me because something about my post leads him to believe I have vast treasure troves of illegal warez just waiting for him on port 2121...
- JoeShmoe
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IP == Phone Numbers (Score:2)
Showing your ips is generally a very bad idea. I think an IP should be handled the exact same way as a telephone number. You usually don't go about showing those on tv either, do you?
The least they should do is put up a big warning.
Re:I really hate this stuff (Score:3)
I have discovered something about myself recently. I don't care that much about privacy. For some reason, I can't make myself be neurotic about my SSN. I freely give it out to anyone in "authority" who asks for it. Hell, I even say it outloud. Sometimes, I've been known to walk down the street repeating it over and over again.
Seriously. You bring up the point that any goober can spoof his IP. And anybody serious about doing some harm to your system can see right through that. While that doesn't (usually) stop me from doing something with my IP, I find that the best way for someone with a leased line/Cable modem/xDSL line and static IP is to simply remain anonymous. Don't do any of those "bad" things.
I want a rock.
IP (Score:1)
Sure - if someone's IP resolves to whitehouse.gov then we smell something in the works, but 61.2.54.2 resolving to dial245.someisp.ch doesn't do much for anyone...
Sure, people will scream and scream every time our "online privacy" becomes an issue - this is simply another example of it, but think about it, folks - when was the last time someone turned up at your door saying "Hi, I'm fred from somewherechat. I got your home address after I got your IP on the chat room, hacked into your ISP and looked at the dial in logs, and cross-referenced it to the your information on their server"..?
Sure, some might be persistant enough to do it (lord help them) - but when it comes down to it, an IP doesn't mean much, does it now?
As for bosses tracing the IPs of their employees, we still have some privacy when we create an account on an ISP, they will only surrender a user's personal details in a criminal offence has been committed. I don't really think mouthing off one's boss falls in that category. And for those stupid enough to do that from their work computer... they deserve such a fate...
Well, next time there is another "online privacy scare" - remember these words.
Were they thinking IP address == "home" address? (Score:1)
- Seth Finkelstein
You all know of course... (Score:4)
You all know as well that you need to use some kind of cryptographically hard anonymizing service for better protection.
Ever heard of IRC? (Score:3)
The close to 500k people who use the various IRC networks around don't seem to complain about their IP's being shown.
Ok, actually yes quiet a few of them they do, and it's something I think IRC networks should really get their butts into gear over somehow masking. Knowing who to email when some butthead floods you on IRC is all well and good, but in these modern days of packet warriors, showing the whole IP address is less than wise. Rumour is that a near-future version of a certain-network's ircd will employ some form of hostmasking technique.
Disclaimer: I don't represent Undernet Administration as a whole.
Re:Were they thinking IP address == "home" address (Score:1)
Re:Ever heard of IRC? (Score:1)
Somthing to do with tkIRC supporting hostname cloaking.. amongst other things.
And frankly, if the users were on dynamic IP#s, who gives a fig?
in the future... (Score:2)
Re:If you really believe that... (Score:1)
But I warn you, before showing up on my doorstep, beware of my killer tabby cat
Moderate this up! (Score:1)
[SARCASM] Maybe Rob Malda needs to fix that "Don't include sig when posting as AC" feature? [/SARCASM]
It's not the most hilarious joke I've ever read but it's certainly not -1:Off-topic...
- JoeShmoe
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http://www.anonymizer.com (Score:1)
Not true... (Score:1)
On the other hand, it appears that you haven't heard of a "bounce" which basically runs all your IRC communication through a vhost/shell (or two or three or however secure you want to make it).
So, in theory someone who wants to find you would need to review the IP logs on several different ISPs probably located around the world. That's something even a governement agent would have a hard time doing if the shell was in, say, Singapore and the sys admin didn't answer his phone.
So, in that situation, IRC is as safe as posting through a proxy on the web. It's not bulletproof but at least if the authorites go after the IP, they are not going to be knocking on your door first.
- JoeShmoe
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Re:IP == Phone Numbers (Score:1)
Re:Ever heard of IRC? (Score:1)
IP = My home address (Score:3)
customer.city.region.state.country.home.com
Plus, my since my customer number is first, if the person has any amount of human engineering skills, they will have my street address in no time. I can't tell you how many times I've had @Home reps read aloud my home address and THEN ask me for my security passcode. Failing that, since they have my city and state, if they get my last name they have a better-than-average chance of finding me listed in a phone directory. =\
Obviously, my complaints fall on deaf ears since @Home is not going to change their idiotic naming scheme any time soon. So, that means I must use the utmost caution when allowing my IP to be posted somewhere online. You people think that only e-mail address are harvested from public discussion groups? Wrong. For several weeks following a posting to a beginners help forum (that listed my IP) I was bombarded with signals on port 31337 and 12345. I actually had to threaten @Home with legal action to get them to change my IP and ever since I haven't let that thing get out of my sight.
If you have a cable modem, especially @Home, I strongly suggest you be just as careful.
- JoeShmoe
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Your Anonymity Online (Score:3)
The Anonymizer [anonymizer.com]
Surf the Web anonymously
Replays Anonymous Remailers [replay.com]
Send email anonymously
Onion Routing
Onion Routing allows you to send IP packets anonymously.
SSonet [tu-dresden.de]
Multilevel security in computer networks.
Paranoia (Score:1)
Re:in the future... (Score:2)
The point is. Your IP isn't anything special. If you're stupid enough to run BO / Netbus - that's your problem - and if someone exploits it -- of course, they're morally bankrupt. But, it's still not anyone except your own fault if you open up your system for exploiting.
I , as a serveradmin WANT to know the IP of those who request webpages from me. When i'm on irc, i WANT to be able to see what IP i'm talking to. Am I talking to someone in the same country as I am? Where in the country are they? (The major isp in norway, "telenor" (online.no..) gives out hosts according to where in the country you are.. ti01*, ti08* and ti34* or something is for example OSLO (the capital).
If I wanted privacy I wouldn't have used IRC, or I would've used a socks proxy. If people don't know how to bounce, well, it's their problem.
--
Re:I really hate this stuff (Score:1)
And anybody SERIOUS about hiding his ip can do that too, so well that it is unlikely that anyone without a bunch of court orders will get him.
There are services for it (anonnymizer.com) too.
As for the Social Security Number thing, I never got what was up with keeping them private. I understand they can be used to get financial info about you and stuff, but I would be scared shitless if all someone needed to know was a 20 odd digit number to get stuff like that out about me.
We all have the equivalent of SSNs here, but they are all but secret. They appear on all bills, id cards, I even write it on my exams at school. But they sure as hell can't be used to unlock a bunch of private information...
-
Just because your paraniod . . . (Score:1)
...Don't mean they're not after you.
I don't particularly think this is a paranioa situation. I think in an open forum such as this there should be at least some accountability. right? I mean should the world let the Anonymous Coward say whatever he wants without fear of having to stand behind it.
"When I look down I miss all the good stuff, When I look up I just trip over things.."
This can be a good thing (Score:1)
So far, the majority of the responses have focused on the bad things that happen when you post IPs. But there are also good things. Let's not forget that this is not a specialty site, a private community like Slashdot wherewe can trust everyone not to post flamebait or redundant posts
This is a personal choice by the site designers, just as CmdrTaco's or Hemos' decision to maintain Anonymous Cowards is their personal choice. As so many have said here at Slashdot, if you don't like the rules, you don't have to participate.
Re:Ever heard of IRC? (Score:1)
And I'm sure I saw an IP# cloaking mechanism on devnull.slashnet.org or wherever it was, too... server-side then; meant everyone who'd enabled it came from 'ident-user@cloaked.domain.name' or whatever.
'Course, I missed this, but... (Score:1)
- dom
Challenge? ;-) (Score:1)
Seriously though, you're right; it rarely happens. But I don't want it to. I don't want people to know where I live unless I tell them. I don't want people to call me unless I give them my phone number. I don't even want them e-mailing me unless I post my address (you'll note mine here dumps to a Mailcity account. If that fills with spam or death threats (I'm not well liked )-:) then I'll still be able to read my important mail. Privacy is measured in levels of trust.
Now, don't get me wrong. It's been about 8 years since I've done anything remotely like cracking. But I could still get your home address with your IP if I really wanted it. But I grew out of that phase.
Oh, and I have a dynamic IP here at work, so . . .
Re:Dynamic IP logs (Score:1)
Since this script is on my own computer, I have logs [attaway.org] of who visits, sends pings, portscans, etc. I used to have a whois search in a perl script show the user's info in the logs to make people aware of privacy.
What if Slick Willie dials into AOL ??? (Score:1)
I think the real purpose is to visibly enable tracking and make an implied threat to tone down flamage. People with dynamic IPs are as traceable as long as their ISP keeps the logs.
Unfortunately, with IPv6, logs won't be necessary.
-- Robert
Re:I really hate this stuff (Score:1)
My point is, with information, people can do some really shady things. I have a cable modem, and I don't run any services on my win98 box, and try to hide my IP whenever possible, but who knows, bad things happen when you least expect it.
what is the Internet coming to? (Score:1)
Re:I really hate this stuff (Score:1)
P.S.- Happy Birthday Janeane Garafalo
Accountability (Score:1)
I think it's irresponsible of the media to use Anonymous Coward postings from Slashdot as News (which happens - our local newspaper printed an article about Corel's GPL violation and used some very damning quotes by Anonymous Cowards on Slashdot to validate their story).
I'd like to think the news I'm seeing on CNN, ABC, etc., isn't being made up by bored, anonymous Internet posters.
- Steve
(Of course an IP address isn't the way to do it.. there's always going to be some level of abstraction when you're accepting people who you've never met.. maybe making them give you an email address and verifying that it exists before allowing them would help. Sure, hotmail addresses are a dime a dozen, but at least you can still email the person after the chat is over and ask for more info or whatever if it's important to you).
Re:Ever heard of IRC? (Score:1)
Being totally anonymous on IRC would be a bad thing for all concerned, in my opinion. It's still important on IRC to know which ISP someone comes from.
Re:IP == Phone Numbers (Score:1)
With IRC, it's part of the software... But some sort of chat room organized by a tv station for discussion of controversial questions ought to be programmed in a way to allow anonymous comments.
Let's be American! (Score:2)
oh my god. (Score:1)
Show me a 'chatroom' where your IP is _not_ published? They'll just send out your message as black text on white background then at then end switch to white on white to hide it from your eye.
Now pick up your mouse, highlight the chat and viola, everyone's IP.
IP Privacy. (Score:1)
When I used to dial-up to digex and irc from there, I would use IRC and my username would be: axjc734ddda@access#.digex.net
I asked what the trash username was about, and they explained it to me. It was encrypted. Only Digex has the key. That way digex could keep their users anonymous & when trouble set in, could decrypt the username back to what it really was and punish the user.
I bet IRC could do that. Except they would probably need a 'shared private key' otherwise you could evade bans by changing servers...
Re:IP (Score:1)
Thank you.
Second of all, the more important part.. the IP doesn't reveal your physical location, but it reveals the location of your computer on the network (AKA. the Internet).
This can be just as bad, for example,,
you join an online discussion, from the ip 207.46.131.13, and you post some really controversial things. Your boss goes "hey, look i recognise that IP!" checks the logs, and finds out that it was assigned to your account at the time of the posting. then he fires you like a good little conservative.
Is this not a violation of your privacy?
Also what about script kiddies? remember the archiac teardrop.c, and how annoying it was before patched? personally, i'd like to keep my IP out of their hands.
No Privacy Issue Here (Score:2)
Why is this even an issue? I'd be complaining if they didn't post the IP addresses.
There isn't a newpaper in this country who values its reputation that runs blind letters to the editor. Period. Every letter must be signed and, at every newspaper I've worked for, the editorial staff goes to great lengths to make sure the name at the bottom of the letter is actually who wrote the letter. Every person who gets a letter published generally gets a phone call before the letter is published.
Folks who use the net expect a greater level of *anonymity* (not privacy) than do most people.
Anonymity and privacy are two different beasts but that's another topic [slashdot.org].
InitZero
Re:But President Clinton *is* a great man (Score:1)
- ...history will show that he was one of the great orators and statesmen of this century.
I suppose he is a great...uh...orator...cough, cough, have a cigar! Billy is certainly good with all things oral...Maybe ol' Mark from DC (Score:1)
Just remember, your tax dollars at work!
Re:But President Clinton *is* a great man (Score:1)
Oops, Larry Flynt is gonna sic Dan Moldea on me for stealing his president.
Go fig. (Score:1)
I'd personally think the IP logging would be to keep tabs on Joe Schmoe who'd want to try to masquerade as the President. As we have learned through countless "celebrity chat" sessions, it's not so easy to pick out the famous, respected person through use of proper grammar and spelling.
Re:IP == Phone Numbers (Score:1)
As I understand it, certain IP addresses are invalid, much like the "555" phone numbers. Why not show one of those instead, if it was ever needed? (Example: someone surfing the web in a movie - you don't want a real web host to be slashdotted (in the generic sense) by people who see the movie)
--
Does anonymizer come to mind? (Score:1)
On second thought, IPv4 actually has an advantage over IPv6 - it takes less place when you display them. I can smell NSA, ABC,
The intent is all that matters. (Score:1)
HOWEVER, that illustrates their attitude and intent which I don't agree with.
And I'm sorry if this response bores you to death. Bite me.
Re:Your Anonymity Online (Score:1)
anonymous proxy (Score:2)
Depends on your need (Score:1)
The whole hostname masquerading thing has been discussed on just about every IRC network. Those that choose to support it do so. Those that don't have their reasons.
Re:look, stupid (Score:3)
Whoop dee do. *ahem* (Score:2)
Hmmm... Someone's web site is recording the IP addresses of the posters. So what? I'm currently engaged in the process of collecting enough AOL CDs to build a parabolic reflector to use the sun's light to write my name on the surface of the moon, and I'm already about halfway there. Almost three-quarters of the way there if I elected to use all the CDs from the other online services as well. With literally geologic epochs-worth of free online time for dozens of providers, it's far far far too easy to come from dozens of places at once. Trying to say that it will keep people from hiding their identities, I'm sad to have to say, demonstrates an incredible naivete. (Bad Rob! No biscuit for you!) For that matter, it will *not* let people track down the "real identities" of posters, since no ISP who wants to stay in buisness will ever give out the personal details of their customers without a court order.
There is only one thing that is accomplished by posting the IP address of the author... It makes it very clear to them that if they decide to troll or post a load of flame bait, that people will have their IP address and time and can send emails of complaint to their ISP. (You would be suprised at both how many web-boards don't log IP address information, as well as how many users don't realize how truly available that information actually is to the moderator of an online forum. Most of the truly awful trolls will play in other pastures once they realize that they could lose their internet account, not to mention get into a lot of trouble with their parents for their actions.
Get over it folks.
The Net (Score:1)
Unterminated bold (Score:1)
I think he just forgot to use a </b> tag. It's an easy thing to do if you don't habitually use the Preview button. I've done it once myself. Give the guy a break.
Ho hum. (Score:2)
CNN, ABC, and other "big news" outlets getting into the interactivity department have learned a few things along the way. For instance, CNN discovered that with open registration, people felt anonymous and would fill up their forums with obscenities and personal abuse (flamewars for the uninitiated). CNN began requiring a "real" e-mail address (though so far as I know mainly they reject hotmail). ABC began posting chat messages like this:
frank rizzo from proxy.aol.com at 10:02am ET
Evas mom from splitrock.net at 10:04am ET
Kisuh from [210.183.28.97] at 10:11am ET
This holds in all chat rooms, not just the political ones. So far as I know, all chats at ABC are moderated anyway, so only postings approved by the moderator are shown. This policy is also something found at MANY web-based chat systems, e.g. bianca.com, again instituted after abuse forced them to.
ABC is not in the business of providing an anonymous forum; they're in the business of entertaining people with news. There are plenty of other places on the internet where one can speak their mind privately.
The person posting this was obviously a first-time ABC chat user, otherwise they would have known this. I don't understand the shock; this sort of thing is common and I'm convinced this person is a newbie with an itchy privacy finger.
Re:IP (Score:2)
Actually hostnames (which are trivially gleamed from IP's) frequently share a wealth about physical locations:
The 150 might not mean anything, but it's a safe bet this guy goes to school at University and is in a dorm named Smith.
If you figure out what building 150 is (as most students at univ.edu probably can), you can walk right up and introduce yourself to The Man himself.
This guy's probably in St. Louis.
I think it's a safe bet this one's in Seattle.
Now, I will agree that it's typically rather difficult to get anything more specific than this, but hostnames are very frequently made up is geographical details.
There are also a number of other reasons IP's can be used maliciously to make your life difficult, but I think the other posters have adequately covered those.
Chat transcript here. (Score:2)
The IP reporting is not "unusual" as stated in the boston.com article (see my other post), nor is it given for "each participant". It is only shown when the originating ISP cannot be resolved.
Freedom from Responsibility? (Score:1)
If you are going to post something on the internet, post as if you are publishing it in a newspaper or a book: you are still responsible for what you say. Granted, most of the internet claims to be "anonymous", but that is far from the truth, and it still does not give you the ability to communicate without assuming the responsibility of your ideas.
Re:You all know of course... (Score:1)
Personally, I have no problem with my IP being known on IRC, because I know that that's necessary and I know that my IP will be shown on IRC. I would have a huge problem if someone took my IP and somehow further spread it around (either through e-mail, posting it on a web page, or broadcasting it on TV), because I did not give my consent to it being broadcast over those mediums. I chose to broadcast it over IRC, but not over TV.
If someone wants to broadcast my IP over another medium, I have the right to be informed and object.
Privacy issue or Netiquette? (Score:1)
As many have pointed out, ABCnews.com has always done this. This was technology inherited from Starwave years ago. GM Bernard Gershon has only been in this role for a couple months.
From proxy11.disney.com, tho my words and opinions are my own (boy are they ever) and do not represent the opinions or beliefs of rodents or frozen heads anywhere (now do you believe me?)
Don't feel so bad... (Score:1)
Re:IP == Phone Numbers (Score:1)