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The Courts Government News

MS: Sued, Falsifies Evidence and Contradicts self 167

Posted by Hemos from the here's-a-bunch-of-flame-bait dept.
SysAdmin writes "I read an AP report in my hometown paper that says the gov't just accused Microsoft of faking a video which shows how performace suffers in Windows98 after the government's IE-scrubber is run. " I try to avoid posting articles like this, but this is pretty significant-some of other sites are talking about perjury charges and such being brought against the lawyers. Additionally, another bit was sent to us by El pointed an article in which MS lawyers were contradicting themselves, as a MS patent claimed that Web browser are seperate from the OS. Lastly, the Canadian province of Alberta has decided to sue Microsoft, amongst others, for Y2k conversion costs-thanks to colonel for that one.
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MS: Sued, Falsifies Evidence and Contradicts self More

MS: Sued, Falsifies Evidence and Contradicts self

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  • Results of Lawsuit (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I'm not exactly in favor of the DOJ in this case (lesser of two evils...), but boy, how I sure would like to have a copy of that IE-scrubber! (for making the 98 machines I have to deal with that much more bearable. ; )

    -Josh

  • Get the fat lady standing by. (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward

    It's over. That's it, kids, it's time to go home. The show's over.

    Make no bones about it. If anyone's still taking bets on the outcome of the trial, bet all your money on Janet Reno. Microsoft is finished. This is a first class quack-up. Judges DON'T like anyone coming in and putting on a dog-and-pony show like that.

    Aside from the issue of the quack-up itself, I have some trouble figuring out how removing Internet Explorer from Windoze can possibly make it seven times slower than it already is. How can removing about a dozen megabytes of bloat suddenly make the rest of the system run slower?

    It just doesn't add up. Yes, you can no longer punch up the Net. Correct, that's what's supposed to happen, But then how does removing web access can suddenly translate into slower performance when accessing disk files, or running programs?

    The only possible explanation I can imagine is this: if the MSIE code bloat introduces some disk caching or multitasking logic that is not part of the system otherwise. Other than that, I see no way this can possibly be.

    But then, we're back to square one. Multi-tasking and generic disk caching is not something that a web browser is supposed to do, so we're back to the bundling issue again.

  • Check out this quote. (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward

    Check out the quote from cnn.com [cnnfn.com]:

    A Microsoft spokesman said ... the company is checking to see whether there was a "minor editing problem" with the video.

    Ummm.... "minor editing problem"???

    YOU SHOWED THE WRONG BLEEPING SCREEN!!!

    Hoo-boy... This is big, very very big. Lawyers get disbarred for pulling stunts like that.

  • Nope (Score:1)

    by Gleef ( 86 )
    Bill Gates stepped down as president months ago, and passed it on to Ballmer (Microsoft employee #3, if I recall)

    Bill Gates is still solidly and actively the Chief Executive Officer, but by passing on the role of president he is less involved with day-to-day operations of the behemoth.
  • On my laptop (I have two linux boxes in my 8'x12' room as well. It's nice to be able to play some games as well as hack in emacs at the same time, you know?)

    Anyway, the only thing it broke so far was infrared file transfer. But at least I don't have IE on my machine anymore!

  • Correcting a spelling mistake while at the same time making one yourself is classical USENET-inspired lameness.

    - A.P.
    --


    "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad

  • I did most of my growing up there (Medicine Hat).

    BTW, MicroSoft -> MS -> Multiple Sclerocis (sp). Windows is one heavily scarred beast.
  • Er, doesn't Texas generally permit the use of deadly force to protect one's property?

    Yes, but IIRC it only applies at night. Strange state...

  • The law I was referring to regards someone removing items from your home or property. If youth in the first email removes the hubcaps from your car during the day, and you see him from your living room window, you can call the police, chase him off, what have you. After dark, as long as you believe he is trying to remove your property, you may kill him. There does not even have to be the perception of danger to your person.

    There was a large uproar back in the eighties over this law (which was enacted last century) when a man killed someone who was trying to repossess his pickup. When he tried to turn himself in he found out that since it was dark when it happened, it wasn't illegal. He later committed suicide.

    The Texas legislature reviewed the law after this incident and decided to leave it in force.

  • Whoops! Make that "youth in the above post".
  • ...then goes about doing things the old way because the old shell code is still in there somewhere.
  • "Last week, U.S. District Judge Thomas Penfield Jackson, who is presiding over the antitrust trial in Washington, ordered Microsoft to turn over an internal spreadsheet to government lawyers. The spreadsheet appears to show that Microsoft knows which browser files are linked with Windows and which files are unique to Internet Explorer."

    Well I would hope they would know which are which. Then again, it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't know!

  • lol (Score:1)

    by cduffy ( 652 )
    What's good for one Bill's good for another, eh?
  • ...not trying to make a point.
  • Posted by Lord Kano-The Gangster Of Love:

    Although I don't know the specifics of Canadian law, it's possible that their laws could invalidate this clause in the EULA.

    LK
  • Posted by stodge:

    Well thats fair enough (!!), except when I go home and try to load Staroffice on my linux box, and realise that it takes 20 times longer to load (no I havent timed it!) than MS Word does on my Win95 PC at work. Then I'm pissed off and jealous.

    There's a tradeoff between memory and performance in development, and I guess in Linux there's currently a trade off between stability and decent Desktop type apps.
  • Posted by OGL:

    This is exactly how they sold Windows as well...according to "Barbarians Led by Bill Gates", the original OLE demo was completely rigged. They simply cut and pasted one applications menus onto a picture of another's. According to the book, the shareholders were somewhat dissapointed that the final product hadn't seemed to make any progress from the pre-release demo, when in fact the entire technology had been written from scratch in the interim!
    As for the Microsoft trial, I think that Windows2000 may be Microsoft's death knell, simply because they have too many people working on it and too much code obsufication for anyone to understand it. Of course, we have to be careful that the same thing doesn't happen to us.

    -W.W.

  • Blah (Score:1)

    by gavinhall ( 33 )
    Posted by Mephie:

    Wow, everyday my job looks bleaker and less stable (I'm in support). Anyone have need of a POV artist??
    --Mephie
  • Posted by Mephie:

    BAHAHAHHAHAHAHH!!!
    It will in Texas... as long as the body and the head fall inside your home.
    --Mephie
  • Posted by OGL:

    Actually, anyone developing Windows can see any part of its source code, but you're missing the point. If code is bloated enough so that no human being can understand it, then we're in trouble no matter how open it is, because it becomes impossible to maintain. This is a problem that has plagued developers since the beginning of time, and adding more developers to a project usually doesn't help. All I'm saying is that we (meaning Linux developers) must be careful not to make MS's mistake of bloating our code stupidly with miserable API's, document sharing capabilities, etc. etc.

    -W.W.
  • Posted by Mephie:

    >>>>Poles don't mean a thing. You can make them say anything you want.


    Silly racist. =)
    --Mephie
  • Posted by tdibble:

    Ummm ... last time I looked, there are approximately 0 people currently in US prisons doing time for lying in a civil deposition (not perjury; the judge deemed it immaterial to the case) about an adulturous affair. The point the House Managers have been making, or at least were making the last time I had the trial on, is that it doesn't have to bea prosecutable offense (ie, "crime") to fit the phrase "high crimes and misdemeanors" as used in the British parlaimentary system upon which the impeachment laws were originally based. You judge if they're right or not, but don't just make up "facts" and try to pass them over on the rest of us! Personally, when the Constitution says "treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors" (Article 2, Section 4) I tend to think of "high crimes and misdemeanors" being at least approximately of the same severity as treason or bribery, but that's just me!

    Back to the point, MS lied about an extremely relevant exhibit. They said this exhibit was central to their case. In a criminal court of law, not a civil deposition, not even in a grand jury inquiry.

    What MS really showed, assuming they really did "mistakenly" videotape just an average, run-of-the-mill Windows 98 box, is that Windows 98 just plain runs like a dog on some systems, and that any effect splitting IE from the OS might have is lost in that noise. As an aside, even if their exhibit hadn't been complete hogwash, showing that a quick hack to separate the two doesn't run as fast as the "production system" doesn't exactly prove much besides the obvious.

  • Posted by tdibble:

    the chance of making all the APIs freely useable is another matter though

    No matter what API's Microsoft publishes, they'll never be freely usable!

  • Posted by tdibble:

    The MSBC story mentions it, interestingly enough ... Personally, I think he was just setting the stage for the big MS announcement that MS Office is an integral part of the OS as well ...
  • Someone should clue in these lawyers to how computers work.

    If I pile many functions including web browsing functions into the same binary.. that doesn't mean that I can't go in and rewrite it to remove that functionality.

    Software does whatever the programmers code it to do.

    Get a clue.. someone!

  • Th' Mickey$oft feebs have it bass-ackerds. ADDING Intercourse Exploiter makes Winders 7 times slower. I've seen several IE crashes goof up the Active Desktop too. Sic 'em Janet!
  • Those people will do anything:

    "Justice Department lawyer David Boies stopped the video demonstration in midframe to show a subtle inconsistency: a software title bar that suddenly changes in the middle of the test. The video had been played in court Monday."

    Now, if you or I did something like this with evidence in a friggin trial, your or my ass would be hauled off to the bighouse real fast. I sure hope the gov't puts the blocks to these corporate pirates. I don't mind that ms makes crappy software that I have to deal with on a daily basis; I don't mind that bgatus of borg is a over-ripe over-rich phoney; I really don't mind the fact that bgatusdeborg has effectively dumbed-down a generation and a half regarding computing power and application. What I do mind is that ms and bgdeborg has the audacity to publicly flaunt such an arrogant and condescending attitude, AND expect to get away with this kind of behavior.

    Huh, deportation might be a good judicial recommendation in this case.

  • He's still chairman though I believe. Either way it wouldn't matter. As evidenced by the many emails the government has presented, the sickness runs much deeper than Gates and Ballmer's positions. MS is a hydra. Kill one head and another will rise to take it's place.

  • Well, you don't see anything wrong with Microsoft shoving a lousy product down people's throats, even if they are dumb enough to accept it? So basically, we should just give up any hope that these people will ever acquire a clue, and just allow them to be swindled out of obscene amounts of money, and allow Microsoft to monopolize whatever markets it chooses? Brilliant. Just brilliant.

  • Evil? (Score:1)

    by C.Lee ( 1190 )
    And you just know the Jerry Pournelle's of the world are going to start triping all over themselves claiming that Microsoft is actually good for consumers and the DOJ should just leave them alone......
  • Even the Nixon crowd wasn't *THAT* stupid....
  • Hmmm....shouldn't mircosoft be saving their money for their legal fees instand of paying people like you to post this kind of nonsense? They certainly are going to need it......
  • Purgery or not, all my friends are using Win.
  • Microsoft used to demo Windows 95 (before it came out) on machines that they claimed were 486/33s. At one user group I know of, the crowd restrained the Microsoft stooge while they took the top off the machine, and it was a Pentium 133.
  • The patent number for the Microsoft patent that destroys their anti-trust case: 5,794,230
  • I think Ballmer and Gates would be busy stamping out license plates. (should).

    In any case, if you split MS into two separate units (apps and OS), where the f_ck do you draw the line?

    Who gets Notepad.exe - the OS unit or the Apps unit?
    Who gets Explorer.exe, the OS unit or the Apps unit?

    And how the heck are you supposed to define that in a long-term-enforceable legal document so that it will cover any possible future new product ideas?

    The idea is fundamentally whacked.
  • "ALL its APIs for all versions of Windows (inc W2K)
    publicly available and free to use for any purpose" - -

    this would be impossible to enforce. Who would be able to go through MS' source trees and make sure that it's all "available", and properly documented?

    Screw that shit. Just put them all in jail for life, from Bill Gates to the Janitors.
  • the only thing I'm worried about is if it screws up future software updates, etc.

    You know, installers that look for certain dll versions, etc. tho the OS runs fine now, it could be trouble down the road. Good thing I don't rely on 98.
  • I'm sure there will be people who disagree, but theregister.co.uk [theregister.co.uk] has had good trial coverage, IMHO. They often mention things I've never seen elsewhere and they have good analysis.

    Their trial home page is here [theregister.co.uk]

    Personally, I think it's better to keep this sort of thing off Slashdot, on the day-to-day side. I'd prefer to see more technical stuff.

    As a "wouldn't that be interesting" endnote, I'd say it's pretty likely that a) the DoJ will win (nahh!) and b) that they will ask for the judge to order MS to make public all their APIs. (the chance of making all the APIs freely useable is another matter though). Nice for Wine...

  • Fellow eternal MS-basher Scott McNealy (CEO of Sun) said not to break them up. (see news.com article [news.com]).

    • "The structural remedies that people are talking about--separating applications from operating systems--is like one of those horror movies where you cut the monster in half, and now you have two monsters."

    It's hard to say what would happen. Much would depend on the implimentation.

    Personally, I'd say that if MS was forced to make ALL its APIs for all versions of Windows (inc W2K) publicly available and free to use for any purpose would be the best thing to go for from the DoJ's point of view. It's very hard to argue against it, and would also be very effective in giving MS some competition. Basically, anyone could then do a complete 'Wine' and make a system where you can run Windows apps without Windows.

    The other thing to do would be to prevent all the software tying that makes it so hard for OEMs to build PCs without Windows pre-installed. MS also ties lots of its software together in certain ways, which rather forces people to run 'pure MS'.

    I'm not saying that splitting MS could have it's uses, but at the moment, I would recommend the DoJ to do the above. When, one way or another, the case gets to the Supreme Court, then go for splitting.

    It'll be another 1-3 months before the trial ends, and the judge'll probably take 1-2 months making a descision. So I guess we'll see something by mid-year. (about the same time the K7 comes out)

  • A copy of the article which was up on zdnet this morning went into detail about another interesting issue: apparently Allchin, who has been using the term "virgin system" throughout his testimony, admitted he uses it to refer not only to systems which only have Windows 98 installed, but also to systems which have MS Office installed and to systems which have had registry entries tweaked by hand before being used for tests.

    However, that version of the story was taken off of zdnet, and it doesn't appear to be anywhere else currently for some reason.

  • ...must be really chummy. That CNN article was so incredibly biased, I'm amazed that it wasn't labeled "editorial".

    The faux pas was glossed, Boies was slurred, while Allchin's testimony was reported as fact. They didn't mention that Allchin conceded the government's points about the video being fake. And, they trumpeted some more "evidence" that everyone in the world is just jumpin' for joy that IE is integrated with Windows 98.
  • The DOJ trial is just daily amusement. The real killer will either be when more games ship for Linux (YES!), or these Fortune 500 companies band together and hand Microsoft the portion of their Y2K expenses for which Microsoft is responsible for.

    Egads people, microsoft is bad and all that, but here's a clue: microsoft, nor any other company, is responsible for the y2k thing? Not legally, anyways... most software licenses state that this product is used AT YOUR OWN RISK.

    I can't wait for all these licenses to pop up the minute the law suits start, and watch everyone get a clue. And if all this doesn't come to pass, it just shows that most people in this world are in need of a swift kick in the head...

  • Lock-tight on this video doctoring issue. We're talking major libel one way, and major perjury the other way. I think this may be a milestone on this case.
    What does this crowd think about Ellison's idea [internetnews.com] of splitting MS into two, identical companies, and give one to Ballmer and one to Gates. I think that actually has a shot of working.
    --

  • Sigh... (Score:1)

    by dsfox ( 2694 )
    That's the whole point of our system of checks and balances, to function in the presence of imperfect people.
  • he's also got a "send me feedback" section
    http://www.vinod.com/feedback.htm

    Wonder what the slashdot effect might have...?
  • Ballmer is less paranoid, less obnoxious and more honest than Emperor Billpitine, right?
  • Big corporations always get away with murder.

    Remember in the late '70's when Gulf Oil defrauded the government out of like, 60 million dollars?

    The government settled with them for the return of $30 million of it.

    Think the average citizen could return half of what he stole and thus avoid jail time?
  • I defy you to find *any* MS product released since 3Q 97 that does not require IE4.

    Age of Empires does not count :) (Not actually written by MS)
  • "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo."
  • Right. Gates made Ballmer President. Gates remains CEO. Glad you could refresh my memory.
    Glad that I was not under oath :-)

  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • Comment removed based on user account deletion

  • 'Twould be nice.... too bad MS doesn't have $300 trillion. It could probably manage $1000 for everyone....

    ElpDragon.

  • It's in the comparative time it takes to load Netscape, of course! Silly us! (Just ignore the fact that Netscape can actually be taken out of memory....)

    ElpDragon.

  • I think the best idea would be to go ahead and break up the company into various units (Office group, WinOS group) and make it illegal to let key people (Ballmer, Gates, et al) to even work in the computer business again.

    That way the various companies would not be still loyal (behind the back of the DoJ) to Bill. He wouldn't be allowed near them.

    Gordon
  • Why the hell is it that absolutely none of this is being covered on CNN? It's plainly obvious why MSNBC would not cover it since they are a part of Microsoft and have no credibility, but I would expect some media coverage outsite of the NY Times Slashdot, and C-Net news.com!

    Would it have ANYTHING to do with the ramped-up advertising campaign Microsoft is pushing? These ads don't even promote a product - just that fake feely-good kiss-the-black-baby for the TV bullshit we expect from Congressional campaigns. They are literally dumping so much money on the media that the media resist covering one of the biggest antitrust trials of the decade if not the century.

    Microsoft has so many penetration points in all these industries.. I really wonder what will happen to the US and/or world enconomy once Microsoft is inevitably slam-dunked (either by US DOJ or by Linux). Never mind the USDOJ trial there is the estimated $600 billion Y2K expense the world faces... a "sizable" share of which can be laid RIGHT at the feet of Microsoft, who at first told us the only way to be Y2k compliant was to get NT5/NT2000... but now that NT2000 will be released AFTER Y2K because it's still too buggy... they tell us we need NT4 Service Pack 4. Ugh.

    The DOJ trial is just daily amusement. The real killer will either be when more games ship for Linux (YES!), or these Fortune 500 companies band together and hand Microsoft the portion of their Y2K expenses for which Microsoft is responsible for.

    ... I'm goin' for a Guiness! :-D
  • Why not split it up nice and fine?
  • There are certain rights and responsibilities you can't waive. For instance, while you can post a sign outside your house saying that anyone or anything who steals anything from your property will have his head shot off, that kind of license would never hold up in court.
    --
    Kyle R. Rose, MIT LCS

  • Damnit! I was hoping Linux would get the credit for Microsoft's downfall, since Linux was starting to make waves before the Microsoft trial.

    Ah well. :P
  • This latest news leaves no room for doubt for those who have continued to defend Microsoft's practices in the face of overwhelming evidence the government has presented to the contrary. I think the government should petition the court to file charges against Microsoft for falsifying evidence and for lying. Microsoft has an established pattern of lying in it's history. They have lied so often it has become second nature to them. I'm afraid that Microsoft has fallen victim to its own lies and is starting to believe them.

    Personally, I am outraged by Microsofts pathetic behavour. They have been breaking the law for so long, they somehow think they are immune to the laws of the United States. Lying, stealing, cheating, back stabbing have all become standard operating procedure for MS. Any CEO that would consider doing business with MS after all these facts have become public should be fired by their board of directors for lack of moral character. In the end, I think the public at large is finally getting a first hand look at the Lying, cheating arrogant shitheads Microsoft really is. You reap what you sow.

  • ...to rush a product to market without adequately testing it first?

    LOL

    Christopher B. Wright

  • Further evidence of Microsoft's legendary and endemic incompetence. They can't even fake evidence without screwing it up.

    Schwab

  • he knows the good side of the force... yet he resists...
  • The EULA explicitly states that uSoft will not be liable for any damages arising from the use of the product, including the failure to perform according to the product's own documentation.

  • www.BillWatch.net is also quite good. It's a somewhat /.-ish site. It covers other MS trials and issues as well.
  • Is this a class action lawsoot? if so, how much green can I get back?
  • his would be impossible to enforce. Who would be able to go through MS' source trees and make sure that it's all "available", and properly documented?

    Simple: someone at the goverment gets the w2k source, types "make" (or whatever) and if the binary is not identical byte by byte with the commercially boxed version, we cut one of BG's finger, and try again. :-)

    Szo
  • "M$, you go to hell! You go to hell and you die!"

  • Well, I haven't found postgreSQL utterly stabile - at least 6.3 or some used to explode (more than leak or flood) on untrivial queries, requiring a kill. Regretted not choosing mySQL, though I used to be pretty unhappy with the severe lacks in its SQL implementation. Proprietaries might make it better so far... Contrary beliefs anyone?
  • While the corporation is "in jail", all monies which would have have come into the corporation are paid directly to the government (to pay off national debt etc). If the corporation cannot survive with no income during its "incarceration", then it will have to declare bankruptcy and go out of business.

    Such penalties might provide some disincentive for corporations to break the law.
  • "It should be understood by those skilled in the art that a Web browser, such as Netscape Navigator or Internet Explorer, ... is separate from the operating system."

    They just proved the DOJ's case, right there. If the doctored video doesn't kill their case, this will.
  • Hundreds of people?!? In jail just from perjury?
    That's interesting...could you name a few of them?
    Exspecially for prejury to avoid personal embarressment, instead of covering up a crime, in a civil case?

    Oh, and with it not related to the case in the first place, too.

    You can argue that all prejury is a 'high crime or misdemeanor' if you want, but there are very, very, very few people for are in jail just for that, without having commited another crime.
    Go on. I dare you to name one. I bet, if you can find any cases, they will have been a convenient way to lock a 'troublemaker'.
    This level of purjury is almost never prosecuted, period. People who claim there are lots of people serving time for it are either uninformed or liars.

  • Jesus christ you are an idiot! Linux kernel size for normal setups is 508KB. it can be larger with mods and whatnot but no much more. And if you install all the GNU/Linux utils then it will be bigger for good reason... its a fucking UNIX! Now 508 KB is not more than a 100 Meg install. The entire tree on my system is 50 MB.

    Alan Cox a chokepoint? AC is NOT and idiot. Perhaps you would have allowed nice small efficient fixes.... yep its easy to read in an array of numbers in one line.... but then again there's the buffer overflow! In your mind it must be better to fix one bug and introduce another that is an order of magnitude worse! Read the source and don't be a fucking dolt!
  • If I'm running IE on my mac, does that make me running a "core component" of Windows in MacOS? My computer must be schizophrenic running 2 os's like that.

    Weird that they would give peices of their OS away free to non-Windows platforms. Hmmm

    W
  • I'm wondering what kind of new features M$ will include in NT 2000.

    I'm guessing they'll add an especially cool new feature for fluid dynamics. This new feature can have up to 200,000 element mesh and display accurate fluid flow dynamics with flow velocities between Mach 0.1-1.5. It will also have very good display features that will benefit from being part of the OS.

    That will put Linux to shame. Imagine how cool your OS would be with that feature!

    ~afniv
    "Man könnte froh sein, wenn die Luft so rein wäre wie das Bier"
    "We could be happy if the air was as pure as the beer"
  • I was a VB conference (hey... it pays the bills so I can work on free as in speech not beer software) and saw a demo of VB 4, way back when. Every one was quite impressed with its performance right up until the part where it was discovered that the entire demo, including the Windows startup sequence, was a PowerPoint slide demo.
  • > Lock-tight on this video doctoring issue.

    Boies charged - and Allchin acknowledged - the change indicated that the test actually was completed using a version of Windows unaffected by the government's modifications.

    They admit it. What more evidence do they need. They claim it was a mistake, not perjury. Don't understand that, though. "Yeah, we made a doctored version of the test, but we intended to use the real version".

  • Knowing Microsoft, I wouldn't be surprised if simply wrote code that checked if IE was available and, if not, added a "sleep".

    Sounds crazy? Didn't they add a module that checked if DRDOS was in use and issue a "warning".

    But the truth is that it is just slow. From another article [techweb.com]:

    In a climax worthy of Perry Mason, Boies then asked: "So, this video you brought in here and vouched for, it's just wrong. [Degradation is] not due to the Felton program, it's just how Windows 98 works?"

  • actually you don't need a sign, as long as the person is inside your house when you fire, and remains in your house after he dies, it's all nice and legal. IIRC if he's in your house when you fire but lands outside you can be tried for murder. Only in the US.
  • No other product makes no guaranty about the quality of the product. When you buy a car, you are assured that it will work correctly for X number of years or else the company will fix it for you. Software companies guaranty that the media is free from defects. Something breaks, they spend $3 to fix it. Not to mention the fact that most EULAs grant the software company the right to revoke your license at any time, without cause, and without refunding your money. Now can you imagine buying a car if the car company could, at anytime, without cause or refund, take back your car? I don't get it now, I never will get it.
  • There are certain things you don't make mistakes about. If a doctor makes a mistake, he is sued for malpractice. If microsoft makes a mistake, they should be sued for perjury. "Oops, when I said I didn't kill him it was a mistake. I meant to say that I did, so you see, I didn't perjur myself." It's a crappy defense at best.
  • That's why I want M$ to be forced to open up ALL of its APIs, present, past, and future. Wine has done a wonderful job w/ half of the APIs hidden away, and it's only 2megs. Can you imagine what would happen if they had access to all of microsoft's silly APIs. Or the DOJ could completely disband m$. Put the whole crap load in jail and let the world be happy.
  • What is achieved by installing 98 in the first place, right?

  • Perhaps a better example would be this:

    A sign outside of your house stating that anyone
    entering the house would be shot when spotted. That kind of sign/agreement will not held out in court.
  • Would M$ ever lie???

    Gee that is a 'big' suprise.. I have friends who tell me about 98 performance over 95.. its slower they say...

    It amazes me thou. A hacker goes to jail, and if his crime was serious enough then he may not be able to use a computer for a while. A perjuror goes to jail or they impeach him from office.

    Maybe Bill should be forced to step down from M$ as CEO. They are thinking of making a president step out of office if he is found guilty. Maybe this CEO should too?

    I wonder if M$ was run by someone who wasn't such a b-----d if it would be any better?

    The company has such power to do good things, now if they only made software that didn't crash your system and works well with other non M$ software.
  • Several weeks ago, the lunatic Judge Bork proposed splitting mSoft into 3 identicle companies.
  • It also suffers when you turn the computer on.
    Can we sue MS for not allowing pepole to use it?

    Anyway,
    It is well known that IE is a resource killer,
    and i cant imagine a machine running SLOWER because it doesnt use it.

    If we're going to use purgery as a case, we might as well quote:
    "Shutting down Microsoft ends innovation" (real quote from their site)
    "Windows 98 gives astounding results and improved speed and stability" - Compared to what? Windows 95?
    "MSIE is bundled, ehm integrated because users like to use it" - dont you mean forced?
    "Windows NT offers stability and speed in a low price"

    In fact, the minute Bill and his spin-doctors open their mouth we can sue for purgery.
  • It also suffers when you turn the computer on.
    Can we sue MS for not allowing pepole to use it?

    Anyway,
    It is well known that IE is a resource killer,
    and i cant imagine a machine running SLOWER because it doesnt use it.

    If we're going to use purgery as a case, we might as well quote:
    "Shutting down Microsoft ends innovation" (real quote from their site)
    "Windows 98 gives astounding results and improved speed and stability"
    "MSIE is bundled, ehm, integrated because users like to use it"

    In fact, the minute Bill and his spin-doctors open their mouth we can sue for purgery.
  • Yeah, you're right,
    But (I think) some of my quote have been used in court by the MS lawyers.
    (Some for "free advertisement" in media covered court)

    Is there a class-action suit for false advertising?

    And as for an injury,
    Yes I did.
    I believed them, and used Windows (Better than ever) as many people did.
    I have suffered from it's instability,
    and it corrupted/deleted some of my important files and documents.

  • Too true. The courts have always frowned on "contracts"
    which have not actually been negotiated between the two parties involved.
    It's been suggested that before you first boot Windows,
    you take a pen and modify the agreement, then get it notarized.
    That should have as good a chance of standing up in courts as the original EULA.

    Of course, even better is to install any other OS and return Windows.
    Sean at Dell said that the refund would be $199. [texas.net]

  • MSoft (Score:1)

    by Eien ( 16340 )
    Like we didn't already know this.
  • Are we to seriously believe that the removal of IE under Windoze 98 is going to slow Windoze 98 down? Wow, amazingly IE must be some super turbo app that is essential to the workings of an already slow OS. Kinda like when a junkie inhales some crack rock and his heart starts beating really, really fast; ready to explode, teetering on the edge of life and death. I guess this is what IE does for Windoze. And tell Gates to get a haircut and stop using that flowbee SH*T!
  • Ellison has been touting that idea for several months now, and I've always thought it a highly intriguing notion. Basically it gives all the computer sellers better leverage for renegotiating the operating system contracts in the near term -- a nice outcome.

    The problem in my mind is that the company that gets the "Microsoft" name may end up with an advantage due to brand-name recognition. Maybe the solution is to let one company get Bill, and the other get the name.
  • I've been saying that since this whole thing began. Micro$loth is just beginning to control the media and dictate what we see and when we see it. Big Brother is not a government; it's Mister Bill's picture that will hang everywhere.

    Of course, this makes the Minute of Hate much easier.
  • I agree with you - MSIE is very nice. It's fast, about as stable as netscape, and it formats stuff nicely. I also like the way you can easily drag your bookmarks around (click and hold on the one you want on the menu, then just drag it where you want - no messing around with Netscape bookmarks).

    It IS annoying that when IE crashes, it takes down the rest of explorer, but since I use LiteStep (cool WM, I mean shell :), it doesn't really affect me.

    The autocompleting is nice, too... although it usually has to spin up my smaller hard drive which I mainly use for backup, which is a bit annoying...

    MS isn't all bad. They do have some nice things, but it's really annoying when I have to trick Win98 into installing the proper driver for my modem - it's internal, but I have to install the external driver or it crashes hard...
  • Friends don't let friends run Windows... ;-)

  • Evil? (Score:1)

    by El ( 94934 )
    Not evil, just ammoral. They're not screwing their customers because they enjoy screwing them, they're just acting in their own short-term self interest, and don't care if their customers get screwed as a side effect. There is a big difference between that and acting deliberately malicious.

    Microsoft is not the enemy. Microsoft is the dinosaur with one foot in the tar pit, thrashing around trying to figure out out to extricate itself...
  • No, abusing people for the sake of abusing people is evil. Doing things for personal gain is human nature (like it or not).

    No, most folks don't need a computer, and nobody is being forced to use Windows, so the analogy sucks. Slavery was not a choice. Windows is a choice, although an admittedly limited choice that does not server consumers best interests. Microsoft has never sent anyone to my home to physically carry me away and chain me to a Windows desktop. I choose to run Windows because my current job (which I've freely chosen) requires it at work, and because several pieces of software I enjoy running at home requires it.

    Granted, I'd rather not give any money at all to M$. As soon as all the software I own runs well under Linux (WINE, anyone?) I'd be more than happy to run only Linux at home. As soon as somebody offers me a job paying as much or more money to work only with Linux, I'll jump at the chance. In the meantime, I've choosen to deal with the frustration and inconvenience of running Windows. Yes, it does crash all the time on me, especially Windows 98.

    Just because you love Linux, doesn't mean you have to hate M$... I prefer rational evaluations to emotional ones. Unfortunately, there are still some problems for which Windows is a better solution -- although that set of problems is shrinking rapidly.

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