Slashdot is powered by your submissions, so send in your scoop

 



Forgot your password?
typodupeerror
×
Piracy

Half of Young Norwegians Justify Piracy as Streaming Costs Soar 123

Half of young Norwegians find online piracy acceptable when streaming services are too expensive, according to a new government survey released this week. The Ipsos poll of 1,411 respondents found that 32% of all Norwegians justify using pirate sites to save money, with acceptance rising to 50% among those under 30.

The rates increase further when specifically asked about pirating due to high streaming costs. Despite concerns about piracy, 61% of Norwegians paid for streaming services in the past year, including 64% of those under 30. Among active pirates, 41% said they would stop if legal services were more affordable, while 35% wanted broader content per service. Only 47% of respondents believed piracy supports organized crime, with 24% expressing uncertainty about this connection.

Half of Young Norwegians Justify Piracy as Streaming Costs Soar

Comments Filter:
  • by Shadow of Eternity ( 795165 ) on Wednesday November 20, 2024 @11:18AM (#64959911)

    It's the MAFIAA that opposes piracy.

      • by taustin ( 171655 )

        Prop 47 didn't make anything legal, it just changed the threshold for a felony vs a misdemeanor to a higher number. That wasn't that cause the surge in retail theft. What caused the surge was county district attorneys (and there were quite a few) who refused (long before Prop 47) to bother with misdemeanors.

        This the new initiative requires two prior misdemeanor convictions for theft to be a felony, it won't make much difference if DAs continue to prosecute the misdemeanors. What will - maybe - make a differ

    • by Anonymous Coward
      Maybe the youths are "learning" instead of copyright violating, like how someone in another comment said AI is just learning and not violating copyright. Although the youths are consuming the material themselves (for education), instead of trying to sell a product from someone elses work (AI).
      • by bartoku ( 922448 )

        I am glad posts like this are now so weak they hide behind anonymous coward.

        I have not been able to get a straight answer as to why anyone thinks AI training is copyright violation.
        AI training relies on the same legal position as search engines rely on concerning copyright: Fair Use Doctrine, Public Access and Consent, Transformative Use.

        However, drawing a parallel between the youth "learning" from material distributed by someone violating copyright and AI training would infer that the material that the AI

        • by korgitser ( 1809018 ) on Wednesday November 20, 2024 @05:06PM (#64960867)

          Never bothered to think too much of the copyrigth angle, but here's my shot. Copyright is not just about making copies, although it seems ai will happily output copyrighted material verbatim if it feels like it. Copyright usually includes reproduction, control over derivative works, distribution, public performance, and moral rights such as attribution (https://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ01.pdf) I'm not really a fan of the current copyright regime, but that's doesn't have to keep me from analyzing it as it currently functions in the world.

          I'd call the biggest issue is about making derivative works, which also fall under the copyright of the source material. AI gobbles up works made by someone else, makes derivative works based them - there's 0% originality in any of AI output - and peddles it to subscribers. All of the rightsholders, from real people to copyright farms, and everything in between, feel the AI companies are profiting off of their IP, without compensation. And they will be 100% right on that the very second an AI company actually turns a profit. My intuition says this is a bit of a far cry from fair use, since an act of fair use is meant to be a small part of a bigger work. Depends on the courts, I guess; my take is that it's a totally new kind of a phenomena that calls for new legislature, and once AI starts to turn a profit, there will be major court battles to exploit the void.

          As to who is making the copy, I'd say it's muddy water. Uploading pirated material, and not downloading, seems to be the copy making act. In that case the AI outputting it's whatever is also the copy making act, and if in that output you can show original works belonging to some other rights holder, there you have it. Or if one should argue it's the user giving the prompt that is making the copy, then also the AI crawling the web is making the copy. Catch-22.

          • by bartoku ( 922448 )

            I think you bring up the prime issues of copyright violation on the output.
            I have heard the argument that potentially the person prompting the AI is liable for the copyright violation? The AI is treated as a tool, like a word processor, you typed in something and got out copyrighted material, that is your fault?

            I like the idea of treating the AI services such as ChatGPT legally as a black box. Inside the black box is a person that may or may not have a computer running some software, either way the person i

        • Hmm, I don't know that "training" is copyright violation but from what I've heard regarding the picture/video creating AIs, those are clearly just regurgitating "Other people's work", which IS copyright violation unless those content creators gave permission.

    • by Midnight Thunder ( 17205 ) on Wednesday November 20, 2024 @12:44PM (#64960127) Homepage Journal

      Opposing piracy is one thing, while inflexibility in licensing models is another. If the second item was addressed, then Iâ(TM)d like to believe theyâ(TM)d need to put less energy into the first.

      Piracy also provides a way of watching your content whenever you want and does not depend on the existence of upstream provider or whether they still have a license for it.

      Buying a video on line, with DRM, is really just a long term rental. This is why piracy or physical media are still the better options.

      • Piracy is wrong because you have zero right's to other people's creations. If you don't want to pay the lousy amount of money to streaming service XYZ, then you can go without. We're not talking about food, clothing and housing. We are talking about CHEAP entertainment.

        The only reason I'd say piracy is okay is if the content is a) really old, like decades or b) no long available for purchase.

        I see zero problem with someone pirating a 60 year old music track. Copyright should be restricted to 20 years. Max.
        I

        • P.S. If you own hard copies, I see zero problems with making personal backups that can then be watched on any screen you want. That doesn't mean you get to run a streaming service for your friends and family though.

  • by RelaxedTension ( 914174 ) on Wednesday November 20, 2024 @11:19AM (#64959913)
    Don't make it artificially scarce or too expensive via legal channels, or people will pirate. It's been shown over and over that most people are happy to pay reasonable prices for their media.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 20, 2024 @11:21AM (#64959917)

    The real pirate is indefinite copyright.

    I would prefer to see less corrupt politicians elected to correct the problem and make the law respectable, but such is life.

    • There are now international treaties to prevent individual countries from making their own rules.

      • There are now international treaties to prevent individual countries from making their own rules.

        America pressured other countries to make those treaties as harsh as possible, then complained about the harsh terms.

        This is yet another reason foreigners think Americans are dumb.

        • In this case it's young Norwegians looking to pirate content in potential violation of said treaties.

        • My response would be that it wasn't me. I was a kid when the last extension was passed, and I have advocated against the sheer length since I became politically aware of it.

  • Enshittification (Score:5, Insightful)

    by mspohr ( 589790 ) on Wednesday November 20, 2024 @11:25AM (#64959939)

    I have bought my music on vinyl.
    I have re-bought my music on CD.
    I keep paying for my music on streaming.
    I'm done paying.

    • Re:Enshittification (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Valgrus Thunderaxe ( 8769977 ) on Wednesday November 20, 2024 @11:31AM (#64959961)
      A half-terrabyte SD card costs, what? $25.00? That's a lot of music. And it's all in my pocket and under my control, at all times.
    • I hear you. No more ebooks or video either unless they're just one-time fluff that's unworthy of shelf space.
    • If you like reading, the local public library has free book rentals. Taxpayers pay the bill. For some reason movies and tv shows aren't handled the same by western culture.
    • by thegarbz ( 1787294 ) on Wednesday November 20, 2024 @01:13PM (#64960215)

      Please stop using terms you don't understand. Providing you various options is not "Enshitification", it's the exact opposite of it. In fact the progression through your list shows very real value provided to you at each step: vinyl > CD is a sound quality increase. CD > streaming is a usability increase. In each case you paying again for a different format is a choice entirely of your own making which at no point were you forced into and at no point where the things you paid for removed, reduced, or in any way enshitified.

      Just because you part with money doesn't make something enshitification.

      Here read the definition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by mspohr ( 589790 )

        Charging me over and over again for the same thing on the Internet is enshittification via the Internet.
        Would you prefer that I call it robery, a scam, corruption, greed, corporate control, capitalist entitlement? I think enshittification is a good term that covers the capitalist greed that is taking over our lives.

      • You seem to be ignoring the fact that the "purchaser" already bought a license to listen to the songs, which is the lion's share of the cost of physical media. Content Shifting from one physical media format to another, for personal use, is already protected under Fair Use, though companies try to block that with DRM.

        For what you write to make sense, the music companies would have had to give a steep discount on purchasing a different format, because the individual already owned a license for in-home use.

        • Given how the distribution model is setup, how would this even work? You don't buy your CDs directly from the publisher. You tend to buy them from a retailer that gets those physical items from a warehouse that got a delivery from the manufacturer.

          Now, if you bought directly from say, Sony, then sure, you should, in theory, be able to get a new format for reduced price since you already have a license for that media. Except, we can't buy direct from Sony (that I'm aware of anyway).

          Otherwise, I agree that wo

      • Providing you various options is not "Enshitification", it's the exact opposite of it.

        What are you smoking? People don't have the option to buy things anymore.

        I have no options if companies reserve the right to change things after I "buy" them, revoke my license, or otherwise pull the rug out under my feet at any time for any reason. All under binding arbitration, to boot. LOL.

    • by rossdee ( 243626 )

      "I have bought my music on vinyl.
          I have re-bought my music on CD."

      That probably means you aren't young.

      • by mspohr ( 589790 )

        Yes, I am old.
        My music is old.
        I don't listen to anything newer than the 60s

        • Missing out on 60 years worth of music? Still pinning for that 50s Christmas no doubt.

          • by mspohr ( 589790 )

            It's just that nothing compares to the music of the 60s and 70s.
            Sorry... Justin Beber just doesn't do it for me.

    • I have bought my music on vinyl.
      I have re-bought my music on CD.
      I keep paying for my music on streaming.
      I'm done paying.

      I have bought my music on vinyl.
      I have re-bought all my music on CD.
      I continue to buy CDs, mostly used but occasionally new, and rip them so I can listen to them anywhere.
      Paying for streaming is not going to happen.

  • The other half ... (Score:5, Informative)

    by Snert32 ( 10404345 ) on Wednesday November 20, 2024 @11:38AM (#64959995)
    ... pirate because of the commercials overlaying the video, the embedded advertising interrupting and blocking the content, and the mandatory login/tracking that goes with every presentation. Even watching TV, I record it first so I can fast-forward over the commercial breaks, but I can't suppress when they resize the screen to show banner advertising on the sides, bottom, or overlay part of the show.
  • by battingly ( 5065477 ) on Wednesday November 20, 2024 @11:53AM (#64960027)

    Since when is "I can't afford it" justification for misappropriating something you're not entitled to?

    • by Lennie ( 16154 )

      I've seen a religious leader say it's excusable for very basic necessities like bread if you can't afford it.

      But I think in the case of the media it's more a matter of: what is considered a reasonable price.

      TV meant cable for most people, you had a pretty simple pricing system in most European countries over a decade ago, you got 1 price for the basics and could pay pay more for a large package (nothing to choose). Most people choose the large package, because the basics were really basic. Then many years l

      • For pure entertainment media, any price the creator decides is appropriate because you don't need to consume that content. If consuming that content is that important, then fucking pay for it. It's not like that content just popped into existence. No, it cost another person(s) time and probably money to produce that content. So really, by not paying, you are stealing someone else's productivity. Zero justification for this. Hence, it's entitlement.

        We're not talking about stealing baby formula so your child

    • by Ksevio ( 865461 )

      In the case of music, the music still exists, piracy doesn't deprive anyone of it

    • by Rinnon ( 1474161 )

      Since when is "I can't afford it" justification for misappropriating something you're not entitled to?

      Taken in isolation it's pretty easy to agree with you.

      I would suggest that the way we have structured our society has engrained a sense of "make money any way you can get away with"; just look at any successful person/business and ask if they can (or would even bother to) justify all the actions they take in the pursuit of money. When the winners of society don't seem to have a sense of morality as it pertains to money, why should the average person hold themselves up to a higher standard?

      I'm not refuting y

      • When the winners of society don't seem to have a sense of morality as it pertains to money, why should the average person hold themselves up to a higher standard?

        Looking at the state of the world today, it is hard not to come to the conclusion that morality is altogether irrelevant.

    • Nobody cares (Score:5, Insightful)

      by abulafia ( 7826 ) on Wednesday November 20, 2024 @12:48PM (#64960133)
      To take this a little seriously, people distinguish between rival and nonrival when thinking about morality. Even "honest" people cheat sometimes when they don't think it harms others, but wouldn't dream of picking someone's pocket.

      But the actual answer is, if you're looking for sympathy for this view, go hang out with anti-porn crusaders. They know where this goes - nobody cares until you have to the power to make people stop looking.

      A different answer is that not all human enterprises should be for-profit, at least as that's modeled by western markets. To pick particular things, education and medicine all scale super poorly. You will never get market-acceptable results over the long term doing them well, so running them as market participants is a terrible idea.

      The Idiot Box is not as important as education or medicine, but it suffers from the same problem - the market demands growth that is simply impossible at some point. So managers have to continually squeeze just a little more more juice, which means less of what customers want for more money.

      It'll never happen, but I personally like the idea of giving copyright different teeth. Keep offering the limited monopoly for whatever time period folks can agree on, but on expiry, reproduction rights automatically assign to a public trust which "licenses" works on a FRAND basis for just enough funds to keep running the trust and secure and maintain the library.

    • by ewibble ( 1655195 ) on Wednesday November 20, 2024 @01:11PM (#64960201)

      Is it moral to take from the public domain and never give back? Laws and what is morally right are not the same thing, these laws have be bought and sold to the people who can pay the politicians the most.

      Is it moral to charge some $100 that cost you $1 to make. I get it there are fixed costs however at some point you have recovered those and made a profit (or need to cut your loses) is it morally justified that you keep charging people indefinitely even though you have made your money back?

      I actually think the attitude that says it is moral to screw people over as much as I can is one of the major reason for the moral decline in society, this even extends to letting people die because they can't pay for health care. I think that is much more immoral than pirating a few movies that you couldn't have afforded to pay for (direct answer to your question) in the first place, and costs the producer nothing.

      • Is it moral to take from the public domain and never give back? Laws and what is morally right are not the same thing, these laws have be bought and sold to the people who can pay the politicians the most.

        Is it moral to charge some $100 that cost you $1 to make. I get it there are fixed costs however at some point you have recovered those and made a profit (or need to cut your loses) is it morally justified that you keep charging people indefinitely even though you have made your money back?

        I actually think the attitude that says it is moral to screw people over as much as I can is one of the major reason for the moral decline in society, this even extends to letting people die because they can't pay for health care. I think that is much more immoral than pirating a few movies that you couldn't have afforded to pay for (direct answer to your question) in the first place, and costs the producer nothing.

        No mods points today but your post is spot on. Many (most) other people's goal in life is to screw you as much as they can. Your goal in life, should you choose to accept, is to screw them back every chance you get. Anyone who told you life is fair was lying. It's dog eat dog. Bon Appetit.

    • They don't justify it, they just do it. Many people are unprincipaled in that they don't consider the moral implications of their actions.

      Many people look at the producers and publishers/rights holders for said video content and ask themselves: are they making enough money to survive and produce more content? And if the answer appears to be yes in both cases, they pirate without concern.

      Doubly so for those priced out of the market.

      • I don't think anyone even considers your second line. They could give two shits if the content creators are "surviving" or not. They got theirs in that moment and nothing else matters. If in the future no more new content is available, well, someone else is probably making something and I can go not pay them for that as well.

        Sadly, our society seems to be continuing down the path to rock bottom in behavior.

        I'd also argue that if you can't afford a lousy $20 for a streaming service (you don't need them all a

    • Since when is "I can't afford it" justification for misappropriating something you're not entitled to?

      I am sure, if they are ever in a situation where their living depends on things they created, they'll be OK if people simply take it for free because tehy think the price is too high.

      • by rbrander ( 73222 )

        That's actually an accurate description of what AI companies are doing with all the content. Just taking it because having to *BUY* rights to every single word, would be too expensive.

        • That's actually an accurate description of what AI companies are doing with all the content. Just taking it because having to *BUY* rights to every single word, would be too expensive.

          It will get interesting when someone finds out a way to use AI to give up its data to train another AI tool.

    • Since never.
      Yet it seems that the losses incurred by the "thieves" apparently capable watching content through the window, as it were, aren't hurting the major players in any significant way. Consider it "pirate" music tape recording, which was going to kill music altogether, back then, according to some.
    • by sjames ( 1099 )

      One wrinkle there. When you steal a necklace or a pair of shoes, the owner is deprived of it. When you copy a movie you couldn't have afforded anyway, the owner literally loses nothing.

      • I was under the impression a lot of these streaming services are actively losing money. If that's true (I've no idea), then every time someone pirates from them, they are literally contributing to that companies losses. If that continues, peoples' jobs will be at stake. If that's a publicly traded company, they may eventually go bankrupt. Now you've contributed to many people losing their jobs and other people's 401k plans are now taking a hit.

        I get it though. You can watch your content for free and that's

        • by sjames ( 1099 )

          Actually, I'm not flying the Jolly Roger. I can afford the streaming, so I can't argue that there's no money on the table in my case. I'd just like a more objective view of what is really happening here and a sense of proportion.

          How is the streaming company losing money because of people who do fly the Jolly Roger? If they couldn't afford streaming, they couldn't contribute to the company's success if they wanted to.

  • >Half of young Norwegians find online piracy acceptable when streaming services are too expensive,

    Because they think access to streaming services is necessary for life.
    • That point is extremely important and valid. Nevertheless, the act of protest against the asymmetry in power and the partially real bad intentions of streaming services is a compelling one, which is why they choose to do it.
  • by mi ( 197448 )

    We could argue, whether a thief is justified stealing food for his hungry baby. But there is no possible justification for theft of entertainment.

    If you find it too expensive, just don't watch it. Go for a walk, read a book (from the free public library), whatever.

    Or, if you're stealing it, at least, don't post excuses blaming the victims on Slashdot...

    And, yes, they are victims — of your theft — and we know this, because, when we talk of independent [slashdot.org] photographers [slashdot.org], for example, Slashdot's sympat

    • by ArchieBunker ( 132337 ) on Wednesday November 20, 2024 @12:20PM (#64960071)

      Difficult to feel bad for an industry that has an accounting method dedicated to screwing people over. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]

      Hollywood was built on infringement and theft. https://www.inverse.com/articl... [inverse.com]

    • by czth ( 454384 ) on Wednesday November 20, 2024 @12:59PM (#64960171) Homepage
      We're talking about unapproved copying here, not theft; do try to keep up.
      • by mi ( 197448 )

        unapproved copying here, not theft

        That's a distinction without difference, as argued rather convincingly by various victims of it over the years [google.com]. Whether you're offering someone else's content to others (a form of theft known as "plagiarism"), or just consuming it yourself without the creator's permission, it is theft for all intents and purposes.

        Had the 10 Commandments been a "living and breathing document" — like the US Constitution is alleged to be by your kind [uchicago.edu] — the "Though shalt not copy co

        • by czth ( 454384 )

          I am entertained. Tell me more about "my kind." While you're doing that, look up the difference between rivalrous and non-rivalrous goods.

          Note that plagiarism is not unapproved copying, but copying and representing the copied work as your own. I doubt the Norwegians are trying to claim authorship of the copied shows.

    • They clearly want to register some sort of protest, but you're definitely right. They can even stream movies for free from the library through services like Kanopy, www.kanopy.com
    • there is no possible justification for theft of entertainment.

      I can actually afford whatever content I want, but he MAFIAA is evil and the abject enemy of a free internet so I very much enjoy fucking them every chance I get. Till they die in a fire that is as good as it gets.

      • If they are evil, why are you consuming their content then? Shouldn't you be boycotting all MAFIAA content? I'm sure there are a few independent content creators that don't let those people publish for them. Heck, I know https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com] Stick Figure straight up started his own record label and even has it printed on the CD jewel case that other people may make copies (never seen that before but it's there).

        So you don't have to consume MAFIAA content. You just won't be consumer "popular" st

        • I don't want to avoid them. They are the enemy and I want to destroy them. Obviously that won't happen, but it still feels good being one of thousands of tiny cuts. It is for a good cause.
  • "I'm entitled to the work someone else produced and not paying them for it. Because . . . reasons."

    That is what this boils down to. That streaming costs money is just another in a long line of excuses. They, and others on here as well, believe they are entitled to all the work and effort someone put into creating a product, and not compensating that person or company. Which is highly amusuing considering just yesterday, this comment [slashdot.org] in a story about Coca-Cola using AI to create its commercial mentio
    • by kmoser ( 1469707 )
      It's only a lost sale if the person doing it *would have* purchased it. At those prices, they're unwilling to purchase a subscription. The market has spoken: don't want piracy? Then lower your prices.
  • I would've expected 80% or something. Hah, conformists!

  • by SysEngineer ( 4726931 ) on Wednesday November 20, 2024 @01:05PM (#64960189)
    Simple economic substitution. When price get too high, consumers will substitute an other product.
    Making it illegal is artificially inflating the cost of the first product.
    If there was no piracy, *no ability for substitution" then price gouging will happen, like medicines in America.
  • In the 1980s, you had bootleg copies of movies and illegal copies of games were the way young teenagers would get the things they didn't have the money for. The real key is, do people have enough money to buy the things they want or need, and then, they have to decide if the risk of getting caught is too high for what they are doing. Streaming is what they were asked about, but you could just as easily ask if people illegally download games, and get a similar response.

    The older people get and the more t

  • Humans are the most adaptable creatures known. We copy others from the day we're born. I recall a "Pirate" political party from Sweeden that came about when The Pirate Bay was in its prime, along with the false arrests, Sea Land Passports, and other drama surrounding it. No surprise that the Norwegians, Sweeden next door neighbors, might also share similar views. To help explain the core of idea that the Piracy is Copying and Copying is the most human trait, please check out this video from Vsauce2 that dis

  • Try "half the fucking planet" feels this way.
  • These kids should stop streaming and go make some noise.

    Yeah, duh, you can't afford luxury goods that your grandparents can.

    That's how it works.

    A decent prophylactic is about $1.

  • This is a pure case of people feeling entitled to content that they cannot afford.

  • I thought all Norwegians were essentially middle class and they are bitching about a couple hundred dollars for streaming services? Do they know you don't need them all?

Dennis Ritchie is twice as bright as Steve Jobs, and only half wrong. -- Jim Gettys

Working...