What's Worse Than Setting Clocks Back an Hour? Permanent Daylight Savings Time (usatoday.com) 195
"It's that time again," writes USA Today, noting that Sunday morning millions of Americans (along with millions more in Canada, Europe, parts of Australia, and Chile) "will set their clocks back an hour, and many will renew their twice-yearly calls to put an end to the practice altogether..."
Experts say the time changes are detrimental to health and safety, but agree that the answer isn't permanent DST. "The medical and scientific communities are unified ... that permanent standard time is better for human health," said Erik Herzog, a professor of biology and neuroscience at Washington University in St. Louis and the former president of the Society for Research on Biological Rhythms...
Springing forward an hour in March is harder on us than falling back in November. The shift in spring is associated with an increase in heart attacks, and car accident rates also go up for a few days after, he said. But the answer isn't permanent daylight saving time, according to Herzog, who said that could be even worse for human health than the twice-yearly changes. By looking at studies of people who live at the easternmost edge of time zones (whose experience is closest to standard time) and people who live at the westernmost edge (more like daylight saving time), scientists can tell that health impacts of earlier sunrises and sunsets are much better. Waking up naturally with the sun is far better for our bodies than having to rely on alarm clocks to wake up in the dark, he said.
Herzog said Florida, where [Senator Marco] Rubio has championed the Sunlight Protection Act, is much less impacted by the negative impacts of daylight saving time because it's as far east and south as you can get in the U.S., while people in a state like Minnesota would have much more time in the dark in the morning.
The article also reminds U.S. readers that "No state can adopt permanent daylight saving time unless U.S. Congress passes a law to authorize it first." Nevertheless... Oklahoma became the most recent state to pass a measure authorizing permanent daylight saving time, pending Congressional approval, in April. Nineteen other states have passed laws or resolutions to move toward daylight saving time year-round, if Congress were ever to allow it, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures...
Only two states and some territories never have to set their clocks forward or backward... [Hawaii and Arizona, except for the Navajo Nation.]
Springing forward an hour in March is harder on us than falling back in November. The shift in spring is associated with an increase in heart attacks, and car accident rates also go up for a few days after, he said. But the answer isn't permanent daylight saving time, according to Herzog, who said that could be even worse for human health than the twice-yearly changes. By looking at studies of people who live at the easternmost edge of time zones (whose experience is closest to standard time) and people who live at the westernmost edge (more like daylight saving time), scientists can tell that health impacts of earlier sunrises and sunsets are much better. Waking up naturally with the sun is far better for our bodies than having to rely on alarm clocks to wake up in the dark, he said.
Herzog said Florida, where [Senator Marco] Rubio has championed the Sunlight Protection Act, is much less impacted by the negative impacts of daylight saving time because it's as far east and south as you can get in the U.S., while people in a state like Minnesota would have much more time in the dark in the morning.
The article also reminds U.S. readers that "No state can adopt permanent daylight saving time unless U.S. Congress passes a law to authorize it first." Nevertheless... Oklahoma became the most recent state to pass a measure authorizing permanent daylight saving time, pending Congressional approval, in April. Nineteen other states have passed laws or resolutions to move toward daylight saving time year-round, if Congress were ever to allow it, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures...
Only two states and some territories never have to set their clocks forward or backward... [Hawaii and Arizona, except for the Navajo Nation.]
Incredible stupidity (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Incredible stupidity (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Incredible stupidity (Score:5, Insightful)
Your solution to the timing problem is none. It's just a case of "If I don't see it, it ceases to exist." Children overcome this at age 2 or 3. You apparently didn't.
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Well, it's safe to assume that everyone would have a problem with their kids walking to school in the dark, so yes, our lives work because we agree on some fixed points in space and time, but it should be easy to come to agreement to have school start at a time when kids don't have to walk through the dark instead of fiddling with the clocks - at least if people were sane and would prefer simpler solutions.
Re:Incredible stupidity (Score:5, Insightful)
>"Well, it's safe to assume that everyone would have a problem with their kids walking to school in the dark"
How many kids "walk to school" nowadays?
Even when I was a kid, we walked a block to a school bus stop. And even with time changing twice a year, IT WAS OFTEN STILL DARK THEN.
The argument about "save the children" with "walking to school in the dark" is way, way overblown.
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Certainly in Scotland, which is about the same distance north as southern Alaska, in the winter it was dark until about 11am, so the only time I saw daylight was during lunchtime. In the summer it was only dark for a couple of hours around midnight.
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Well, it's safe to assume that everyone would have a problem with their kids walking to school in the dark, so yes, our lives work because we agree on some fixed points in space and time, but it should be easy to come to agreement to have school start at a time when kids don't have to walk through the dark instead of fiddling with the clocks - at least if people were sane and would prefer simpler solutions.
Using the olde children walking to school in darkness meme is irrelevant.
One of the issues with fiddling with the clocks is that the earth is a spheroid, and its rotational axis is tilted. so making local light/dark cycles the metric of building your society is something that went out the window ages ago.
We orbit the sun, so the tilted axis of rotation causes dramatic shifts in daylight/darkness times.
So what does that all mean? Dark on one side while the other is lit, and twilight areas, always shi
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But we're talking about school administrators here, so that's out.
Re:Incredible stupidity (Score:5, Insightful)
There is that problem with people working together. They have to agree on a point in space and time (or spacetime) within their rules of cooperation. It's always easy to schedule your own time if you don't have to consider other people. Some people call this Freedom. They totally forget that this type of Freedom is only made possible by other people being on call for 24 hours, 7 days a week. Your freedom is made possible by outsourcing your timing problem to service personnel and first responders. They have to adhere to a strict time schedule with shifts and rotations to pay for your life style.
Your solution to the timing problem is none. It's just a case of "If I don't see it, it ceases to exist." Children overcome this at age 2 or 3. You apparently didn't.
His point is that rather than force everybody to change their clocks, that smaller circles - companies, schools, and individuals - can change their schedules, if they feel a need to.
Is it a perfect solution? No. But neither is forcing everyone to change their clocks.
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Frankly, the headaches that would arise would not be worth it. Because you are *constantly* needing to coordinate with people not in your "smaller circles." Your bank. Restaurants. Trains. Busses. Stores. Government offices. "Forcing" everybody onto a common clock is the only way to make it all work.
Re: Incredible stupidity (Score:5, Insightful)
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Yes, but that doesn't change anything.
If you are in a silly DST zone you can permanently start the school hours later and have a fixed schedule.
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Re: Incredible stupidity (Score:2)
Even young children aren't fooled by setting their alarm clock ahead versus moving their wake-up alarm back. We all know we're getting up an hour earlier, and going to bed before we're tired. We all feel it.
Thats the point, we're already doing this so you can keep doing it without DST. Or don't, but they still have to deal with winter coming.
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"businesses further from the equator can even have summer hours and winter hours to align with sunshine"
The hardware store already does. This is an agricultural area and winter business is slow, summer is busy and starts early.
The grocery store opens at 6 for the donut trade, most other stores open at 8, a few not until 10. My former job was 7:30 to 4, but there was also the rotating shifts going 6 to 6.
So yes, leave the clocks alone and change store hours.
The real driver for DST is the retail business. The
Re: Incredible stupidity (Score:3)
Re: Incredible stupidity (Score:2)
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Removing DST doesn't alter any of this for anyone.
Instead, it removes many people from having to reset their bio clock twice per year for No Good Reason. Some states are divided among time zones, some following one region, the rest following another. Add AZ (and a few other spots) that don't change, or have strange shifts, and it's an unwarranted mess.
Not many children even walk to school any more. If they do, put reflective clothing on them. Equip them with a rechargeable flashlight. Let them wear layers.
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The local school district could change school hours to suit the daylight situation in their district. They don't need the Federal government to tell them to switch it by one hour on a specific date.
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Using time zones IS good presentation and causing the least confusion.
Sure. And if someone wants to not use time zones, a 24 hour UTC system works well.
Having time changes is stupid.
Now you lost me. Here in Pennsylvania, not even that far north, the seasonal light/dark cycles vary tremendously. From getting light at 4 in the morning to Yesterday, when I went to work at 7 AM, and it was still dark.
And one thing is weird as well. If changing the clocks by an hour is murdering people, which means that it will kill you if you ever change your schedule, then we should see people killed by the inability to e
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Adjusting a few minutes every day is much less hard on people physiologically and psychologically than waiting until an hour accumulates and doing it all at once.
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But think of all the exercise you'd get running around your house every day for 30 days changing all the clocks by two minutes!
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Fun Fact: In 1973, before some of you were born, congress passed a law putting the U.S. on permanent Daylight Saving Time. It was signed into law by president Richard Nixon and there was widespread approval by the public. It was repealed one year later, because of various complaints.
Oh come on, this is the US, just because a law change failed drastically the first time doesn't mean we can't try it again and again and again until it suddenly magically starts to work. See the War on Certain Drugs as a prime example of this strategy.
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Mostly complaints from people looking for some reason to clutch their pearls. I was in the 2nd grade and walked to the bus stop (not that far). It was dark-ISH and I had a flashlight, not because it was necessary but because when you're 7 it's fun to take a flashlight to school and then I had an excuse.
Re:Incredible stupidity (Score:4, Funny)
"Why don't we just pass a law requiring the earth to change the way it is tilted so that we have the same amount of daylight year-round?"
If you vote for the MAGA party, they might do just that.
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That's exactly how I feel when people say, "omg, my children will have to walk to school in the dark!" ... what!? No, you morons, have your kids walk when it's light. People are so fixated on the time on a clock; Businesses, schools, and people can operate at whatever time they want.
So, instead of everyone changing their clock, businesses and schools will change the hours that they are open and everyone will change the time that they go to work/school/whatever. How is that any different? Do you really think there won't be complaints about that?
Oh yes. There will be a lot of complaints. Because everyone adapting to the local light/dark cycle will be chaotic.
But the old "won't someone think of the children walking to school" meme is irrelevant. Won't work anyhow. In spring in my location, they'd be going to school at 4:00 AM
Which of course means that everyone has to go on the weird variable time life. Talk about chaos. In say Miami Florida, where daylight/dark cycles don't change a lot, calling up a business associate in Canada with huge swing
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would require knowing the day/night cycles in that part of Canada at the specific day and time you wanted to call.
Don't make unsolicited phone calls to people, that just disturbs them unnecessarily. If you want to talk to them, send them a message asking for a mutually convenient time to do so. This would work perfectly well with everyone following UTC.
we're going to have to put up with local adjustment.
This is a problem made much worst by DST.
Knowing that someone is 2 hours ahead of you is quite easy to calculate. Knowing that someone is sometimes 2 hours ahead or sometimes 3 depending on the time of year just adds unnecessarily complexity and more errors in calculatio
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would require knowing the day/night cycles in that part of Canada at the specific day and time you wanted to call.
Don't make unsolicited phone calls to people, that just disturbs them unnecessarily. If you want to talk to them, send them a message asking for a mutually convenient time to do so. This would work perfectly well with everyone following UTC.
Not to put too fine a point on it, I deal with people worldwide. And with the time zone differences, and knowing their work schedule, it hardly uses any brain cells to know where they are, their local time, and mentally converting that to your time. So simple that I would think slashdotters wouldn't have any problems at all.
And in accommodating fashion, I always try to contact them on their schedule.
But having everyone alter the clocks based on their local light/dark cycles, which say where I am in the
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"Time" is a human invention, you can start work, school, businesses, at whatever "time" you want, you absolute fuckwits.
This. According to TFS logic, the US Military using Zulu time on our own troops is psychological warfare at best and murder at worst.
About the only people seriously affected by it are those waking up to a rooster (who ironically doesn’t use a watch), or those so fragile they are trigged by strong farts and beige crayons.
Besides, we already carved up this planet into two dozen time zones. If Florida wants to abolish DST, then fucking do it. It’s called States Rights. Why are we waiting for Da
Re:Incredible stupidity (Score:5, Informative)
If Florida wants to abolish DST, then fucking do it. It’s called States Rights. Why are we waiting for Daddy Congress approval here? That’s a grown-ass State in a country spread across 9+ time zones.
If we’re waiting on Congress, we might as well wait on the UN or NATO then. If this is such a health issue, perhaps the WHO should decide. Otherwise, maybe States should grow the fuck up and make a decision that best suits them in their time zone. Hawaii did.
Hawaii does not operate all the time on DST, it operates all the time on Standard Time. This is allowed by Congress in the Uniform Time Act. The Act gives the states the option to either observe DST or exempt themselves from DST. It does not give the states the option to use DST outside of the prescribed period.
The reason Congress has power over this issue is that it's considered a matter of interstate commerce. The Commerce Clause in the US Constitution explicitly gives power to regulate matters of interstate commerce to the Congress.
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The reason Congress has power over this issue is that it's considered a matter of interstate commerce. The Commerce Clause in the US Constitution explicitly gives power to regulate matters of interstate commerce to the Congress.
In a country that maintains 9 official time zones and 13 unofficial ones, “commerce” is about the level of bullshit excuse I would expect from Congress on this issue.
By comparison, the highly profitable 24/7/365 issue of abortion is left to States to decide, but changing clocks twice a year somehow justifies a Federal stranglehold. That’s fucking rich.
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"Noon", of course, coming from the Latin word nonus, meaning ninth, and originally meaning the ninth hour after sunrise. One can only imagine English speakers in the 12th through 14th centuries had similar arguments as the meaning of "noon" shifted three hours earlier.
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>""Noon", of course, coming from the Latin word nonus, meaning ninth, and originally meaning the ninth hour after sunrise"
When/where did the sun rise at 3am? That seems a bit strange.
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"Noon" originally named a midafternoon point for prayers, around what we would now label 3 p.m. That's why I mentioned it shifting three hours earlier.
Although if you go far enough north, the sun will rise at 3 am at some point in the year. Even farther north, it will not fully set for six months.
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Their day was split into 12 hours between sunrise and sunset, and they didn't have times for the hours of darkness. Sundials don't work in the dark.
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Carlo Carlucci: In Italy, the lunch hour is from one to four.
Wendell Armbruster: *Three hours* for lunch?
Carlo Carlucci: Mr. Armbruster. Here we do not rush to drugstore for chicken sandwich and Coca-Cola. Here, we take our time. We cook our pasta, we sprinkle our Parmigiano, we drink our wine, we make our love...
Wendell Armbruster: What do you do in the evening?
Carlo Carlucci: In the evening, we go home to our wives.
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Re: Incredible stupidity (Score:2)
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"Time" is a human invention, you can start work, school, businesses, at whatever "time" you want, you absolute fuckwits.
Whether we adopt permanent standard time or permanent DST, over time behaviours will adapt to have 'start of day' and 'end of day' where people find them comfortable, just with a different number on the clock. But that does take time for behaviours to adapt and in the meantime it isn't insane to suggest that issues could arise.
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insults are a human invention too, insults speak volumes about the insulter
Re:Incredible stupidity (Score:4, Informative)
>"you can start work, school, businesses, at whatever "time" you want"
No, "I" can't. I am not in charge of when those things are timed, and neither are you. And here is a clue for you.... if you hold time constant all year and then change the times things start/open twice a year, we are not much better off than before.
>"you absolute fuckwits."
Because everyone who would disagree with your worldview must be, right?
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"Time" is a human invention, you can start work, school, businesses, at whatever "time" you want, you absolute fuckwits.
All in preparation to live as a useful citizen in the modern world. Time doesn't matter when you're in the sticks, but it does when you're living where there's cars and trucks and planes and trains and other things that require timing, or mayhem happens.
Let's see you run a railroad without time, or control a busy airspace, or cook, or take pictures, or anything else that requires timing
Your thinking only works if you're in a place completely isolated from civilization. Sucks, but them's the chips.
I love c
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"Time" is a human invention, you can start work, school, businesses, at whatever "time" you want, you absolute fuckwits.
Say that to someone that works the night shift's face. Time is an abstraction of our circadian rythym. There are consequences to doing the "whatever" part.
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The problem is too many fuckwits in management that won't bend on start times. It's actually easier to move the clock out from under them than it is to get them to bend to practicality.
TFS introduces factual errors not in original (Score:5, Interesting)
While it is true that Daylight Saving (no ending s) Time exists in part or all of the USA, Canada, Europe, Australia, and Chile (possibly going by another name such as summer time), it is not correct that the time is changing this weekend in all of those places, as TFS implies. In much of Europe, it ended for the year on October 27. For Australia and Chile, not only are the dates of the change different in the latter half of the year (first weekend of October and September, respectively), the direction of the change is different. Since those are southern hemisphere countries, they have recently started, not ended, DST, since it's spring on that side of the planet. TFA doesn't even mention these countries, so these errors are introduced by TFS.
What a stupid thing to say (Score:3)
Florida [...] is much less impacted by the negative impacts of daylight saving time because it's as far east and south as you can get in the U.S., while people in a state like Minnesota would have much more time in the dark in the morning.
And of course, this has nothing to do with Minnesota being also a lot further UP NORTH than Florida...
I live at 67 degrees north latitude and I can tell you, DST or no DST makes zero difference here: when the official time changes, it's dark in the morning and dark in the afternoon. It's moonlight saving time for us, and all it does is annoy the hell out of everybody who has to readjust their alarm clocks twice a year.
Re:What a stupid thing to say (Score:5, Informative)
DST only really makes even a modicum of sense at a certain latitude band. That band is probably from about 30 degrees to 50 degrees or so. Maybe a little outside that range. But go too close to the equator or poles and DST doesn't do much besides annoy people.
Unfortunately, the majority of CONUS is in that latitude band, so a lot of people who live there think that DST is a good idea, so it continues year after year.
Interestingly, time zones themselves tend to drift west of their natural locations. Take a look at this world map of time differences between local and solar time [wikimedia.org]. The value is essentially what time is it when the sun is at its highest point in the sky compared to noon. +2 means 2pm, -2 means 10am. That map shows the difference in standard (non-DST) time. Add another hour for DST. But you can see how wacky some time zones are. The UK and France are basically north/south of each other, but France is an hour later (and in the same time zone as Poland). Same thing with Argentina and Bolivia. Of course China is just crazy having only one time zone for a country that spans 5 natural time zones, and is also not that far from the equator.
What's my point? Probably nothing other than that people and societies are very weird and irrational about time and our clocks. I always hope for rationality, but never expect it. :)
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Not as far north, but yes.
I remember as a school kid hearing arguments in favor... While traveling both to and from school in the dark.
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And of course, this has nothing to do with Minnesota being also a lot further UP NORTH than Florida...
The part of the summary you quoted says this. Without the sarcasm.
Europe consultation on stopping DST (Score:4, Insightful)
We Europeans were consulted several years ago and massively voted to abolish DST. 5 years later it is still there.
Applying the decision seems very complicated. How can our politicians achieve anything anything significant if *this* is something complicated.
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It isn't that it is complicated, but that there isn't a consensus in abolishing it, despite popular support. The Commission (which certainly is in favour of abolishing, since it proposed that in the first place) won't show any text the Council if it knows it has no chance of approval. Here is the latest statement from the EC:
2023-02-06 Daylight saving time – follow-up https://www.europarl.europa.eu... [europa.eu]
"Is [the Commission] planning to set out a clear agenda for both itself and Parliament so as to move forward on this issue once and for all?" -- Benoît Lutgen (Belgium; Parti Populaire Européen)
2023-04-12 Answer given by Ms Simson on behalf of the European Commission https://www.europarl.europa.eu... [europa.eu]
"The proposal was last discussed by the transport ministers under the Finnish Presidency in 2019, as there was no sufficient support among Member States to discuss it further. The discussions have not made progress in the Council since then."
For reference, the results of the public consultation in EU, with 4.6 million respondents, about 85% in favour of abolishing (2018): https://eur-lex.europa.eu/lega... [europa.eu]
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We Europeans were consulted several years ago and massively voted to abolish DST.
No we didn't. A vote was taken in public consultation. An embarrassing number of people couldn't give a shit or didn't realise it was happening. Less than 1% of the population voiced their opinion. The majority of the reject voters came from a single country where a special interest group ran an anti-DST campaign.
No we Europeans didn't say anything. I agree DST is shit, but I don't proclaim that Europeans voice any official opinion on the matter.
Applying the decision seems very complicated.
It's absolutely not. DST was abolished in EU. It's no longer a
Local problems seem idiotic from afar (Score:2)
A visitor from a distant country talked about how they hate the country next door and vice-versa. From where my colleagues and I sat it seemed idiotic because both were a miniscule angle apart from each other when seen from afar.
Locally, it was always pitch dark in the winter when preparing to go to school which was a bit far away. It seemed idiotic up-close too.
I always though jeez why don't people just say business or school will open at different hours in the fall, like the lakeside hamburger shack would
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p.s. and don't get me started on "is that country on holiday now..." yes calendar import is a thing, but countries change holidays more often than you'd think and the country or OS vendor should suck it up and maintain a f*ing official calendar that your PC and phone can import automatically. Even if google knows it is a local holiday it still can't tell me if a restaurant's hours have changed.
Who needs "daylight savings" anyway? (Score:5, Interesting)
As a kid, I always thought the whole idea of tinkering with clocks was silly. Here in the south of the UK, no matter what you do, there's still too much daylight in summer (16 hours, but it's light for longer) and not enough in winter (8 hours in late December). I go to bed early, get up early, and used to struggle getting to sleep in the summer when the clocks went forward. I've never been woken by an alarm clock, as I'm a natural early riser.
So, 25 years ago, I decided I would stay on GMT year round. It worked wonders, no more trouble sleeping. To me, in the summer, it was a case of going into work an hour earlier and coming home an hour earlier, and as still I used daylight savings time at work (no missed meetings for me), it was as if every day was like a day trip to France!
I can't say I'll ever go back to tinkering with clocks, but what I will say is that you really shouldn't need the government to tell you to go to bed an hour earlier in summer, which is what daylight savings time means.
Unsolvable problem (Score:2)
50% want permanent DST, 50% want permanent standard time, 50% want to keep time changes. Yes it is more that 100%, some people can't make up their mind.
No matter what you are doing or not doing, some people will have a problem, not everyone has the same sleep cycles, the same jobs with the same working hours. Personally, I think clock change is a way to match wake up time with sunrise, which makes sense even without the energy saving considerations, but of course, it is debatable.
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>"50% want permanent DST, 50% want permanent standard time, 50% want to keep time changes."
I literally don't know anyone, personally, that wants to keep time changing. Not one. My guess is more like 90%+ want to stop the insanity of time changing.
However, you are right that there is no clear majority on whether than means permanent DST or permanent standard time. And, thus, there is paralysis on actually getting rid of time changing.
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I didn't even notice. What is the problem again?
"Experts" (Score:5, Informative)
>"Experts say the time changes are detrimental to health and safety, but agree that the answer isn't permanent DST. "The medical and scientific communities are unified ... that permanent standard time is better for human health,"
"Experts!" I don't care what these "Experts" say, I support year-round DST. I would MUCH rather have additional daylight at the end of my workday, when I can make use of it. At least they got the part about time CHANGING being always bad.
>"Waking up naturally with the sun is far better for our bodies than having to rely on alarm clocks to wake up in the dark, he said."
In the dead and late of winter, on standard time (not DST), IT IS STILL DARK WHEN I HAVE TO WAKE AT 6:45AM, which is around when most people I know must wake (between 6 and 7am). Yeah, there is less of waking in dark over the year, but, again, it is not like it makes that go away, and it is still far less DEPRESSING than it being dark when I wake AND dark when I get home on non-DST for a good part of the year.
Screw you. I don't like 418pm sunset in MA (Score:2)
And if the cost of having sunset after 5pm for a few winter months is having sunrise after 7am, that's fine by me.
Some dipshit "expert" sitting in the middle or western end of his timezone knows jack shit about what's good for me in the northeastern end of the eastern timezone.
States rights (Score:2)
It should be up to each individual state to decide:
What time zone it wants to be in
Whether or not to change the clocks twice a year.
And it should be decided by a referendum of the citizens of the state, not just the legislature.
The only role for congress should be deciding which date to change the clocks.
Time to waste time complaining about time? (Score:2, Insightful)
Morning people (Score:2)
All these bi-yearly discussions do is remind me how much I hate morning people :)
Hilarious debate (Score:2)
Screw the experts, I contiguous sunlight hours (Score:3)
How much time do you spend awake in the morning before going to work? How much time do you spend awake after work?
More sunlight should be given to the longest contiguous time that you're free from work or sleep.
For many, it means the sun needs to set later.
Oh my god the sky is falling! (Score:3, Funny)
Twice yearly slashdot clickbait for the small minority of overly vocal antagonists who shout to high heavens about how DST raped and killed their sister.
Really obvious answer (Score:2)
Split the difference. At the center latitudes of the time zone, when the sun is at its zenith, the time is 11:30 AM.
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correction: longitude. But you knew what I meant...
We already HAD one of you. (Score:2)
The problem is not the choice of zero point (Score:3)
The problem is insistence on doing things at the same time
My solution would be to use UTC everywhere and adjust local schedules locally
Instead of forcing everybody to start work at 8:00, choose start times locally
We already deal with timezones, so this is not a totally impossible idea
It never made sense (Score:3)
School? Today's kids couldn't care less. Parents? If you don't work, getting your kid to school is easy light or dark, and if you do work, the time change is just one more hassle in a world of hassles.
Needless Deaths for Daylight Savings Time (Score:2)
WE tried it - it failed (Score:3)
Being outside the USA, we call in summer time. It doesn't save any daylight..
We tried permanent summer time once. It was an impressively stupid idea that made life very difficult for half the country. The sunrise where I come from was after 10 o'clock. This idea had to be the result of having our capital in such an insane place as London! Towards the end of the year, there is over an hour difference. Perhaps, as the USA is entirely south of the UK it won't be so bad?
The logical answer to all this is to keep the same time on the clock and businesses can have the option to open when they want!
Perhaps everyone should use UTC. This would be technically simple and the only difficulty would be people in the USA would have to learn the 24-hour clock.
Just what I need (Score:2)
You know what's worst than permanent DST? (Score:4, Insightful)
Switching the god damn clocks back and forth. DST serves absolutely no purpose. If you are on the east side of your time zone, fuck you. If you are on the west side of your time zone, fuck you. Neither of your perspectives or opinions are important. Pick one, stick with it, get over it.
Play pretend time (Score:3)
It's called a standard for a good reason... (Score:3)
Daylight saving time has always been a horrible idea.
If you want an extra hour of daylight in the evening then you can get up an hour earlier if you want to but don't force an entire nation to share in the delusion that you somehow saved time by doing so.
Now that we're back on STANDARD time we should stay put.
Re:There's a lot of nothing in that article (Score:5, Interesting)
From the summary:
"By looking at studies of people who live at the easternmost edge of time zones"
That's a statement of actual studies existing. They do, you can find them if you try.
Re: (Score:2)
Yes, but the studies don't say changing the clocks is bad.
What they say is that getting up too early is bad.
We'd be better off if the standard workday were 10 to 6 instead of 9 to 5.
Re: There's a lot of nothing in that article (Score:2)
Depends on if you ate a morning or evening person.
Re: There's a lot of nothing in that article (Score:5, Funny)
I'm never that hungry.
Re: (Score:3)
You are what you eat after all.
Re:There's a lot of nothing in that article (Score:5, Insightful)
This is a weird objection, but you see it a lot in these biannual daylight savings complaint fests. The numbers on a clock are just numbers on a clock. When someone talks about "changing the time" what they're talking about is really changing the timing of the whole set of societal obligations, e.g. when you have to be at work. Changing the standard workday to 10 to 6 instead of 9 to 5 is the same as "changing the time" from daylight savings to standard.
When the studies compare the eastern side of a timezone to the western side they're comparing standard workdays that are offset by about an hour, say 9:30-5:30 in the east and 8:30-4:30 in the west, times relative to the centre of the timezone. When people talk about instituting permanent daylight savings time they're talking about moving the standard workday one hour earlier in the winter, i.e. from 9-5 to 8-4.
We do this with daylight savings time in the summer because people like getting off work "early," at 4 (standard time) and having extra daylight in the evening. There isn't much cost for it physiologically because it's summer and the sun is coming up early anyway, so starting work at 8 (standard time) still means you're probably waking up with as much (for most people more) light as you were before.
Proposing to implement DST permanently means going to work at 8 (standard time) all year round. So no change in the summer, but in the winter it means waking up with less light than you would otherwise. I.e. it's the opposite of the change you (and the research) suggests would be good. I don't think there are any places with permanent daylight savings time. In the US, Nixon implemented it, with ~80% public support, but it only lasted through the first winter, when everyone realized it was awful. China, famously, is one big timezone, which is standard for the eastern seaboard but is effectively permanent DST in the middle part of the country and double DST in the west. Care to guess where the political power in China is located?
There ARE lots of places with permanent standard time and it seems to be fine. Winter is the same, but you sacrifice that extra hour of evening light in the summer. Thus the article's assertion that there's only one thing worse than changing to DST in the summer: having permanent DST. And yet, pretty much all the proposals to eliminate time changes propose to institute permanent DST rather than permanent standard. Because people think they like DST better. Until they get their wish and have to get up an hour earlier in the winter, that is.
PS: complaining that you don't have permanent DST is kind of ridiculous. Even if everyone else is observing a time change, there aren't going to be many complaints about a contrarian maintaining standard time, which just means they fail to fall back in the fall and spend their winter waking up an hour earlier than everyone else.
Re: (Score:2)
Or here's a novel concept, just go home a bit earlier.
Re: (Score:2)
He might not be able to due to inflexible bosses or the need to coordinate with others.
My parents liked having early arrival and leaving when they could though just for avoiding traffic.
Re:Yearly retards (Score:5, Interesting)
Yup. I laid in bed an extra half hour before deciding to roll out before 5 AM (DST). Have my breakfast, post on /., read the news, clean the dishes, and get ready for the rest of the day. That extra hour allowed me to get things done so I have free time.
Maybe if people went outside rather than sitting on the couch all day this time change wouldn't be so "traumatic". Sunlight resets your body clock, as does movement. Get out of bed and do something.
Re: (Score:3)
Um, no. Europe set their clocks back last week. We had an extra hour in bed.
Australia, on the other hand, is in spring not fall so they would put their clocks forward.
Re:Perfectly demonstrates how much gov hates you (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Perfectly demonstrates how much gov hates you (Score:5, Funny)
Everyone single human hates changing the clock. Every single human wants this nonsense to end.
Now now, you know I've told you 20,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times not to exaggerate like this.
Re: Perfectly demonstrates how much gov hates you (Score:2)
Dst isn't worse. It's the change that's worse. Dst is in effect almost 8 months out of the year. Making the eastern timezone permanently utc-4 or utc-5 is a purely subjective judgement. And I vote for utc-4 because I hate early sunsets more than I hate late sunrises. And absolutely nothing you can say will change my subjective opinion on the subject.
Re: You don't say (Score:3)
And they're all wrong. Maybe in the west of the timezones standard time makes more sense...but all that means is that we've drawn the time zones wrong.
Re: (Score:3)
Commerce Clause.
You can do what you want. You just can't run railroads (or banking, the Internet or anything else that crosses state lines) without the involvement of the Feds.
Re: (Score:3)
Interstate Commerce Clause. The railways are an interstate system, and heavily used for commerce. To enable them to operate safely, the rules for time had to be codified.