Oregon County Seeks To Hold Fossil Fuel Companies Accountable For Extreme Heat 220
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Ars Technica: Northwest Oregon had never seen anything like it. Over the course of three days in June 2021, Multnomah County -- the state's most populous county, which rests in the swayback along Oregon's northern border -- recorded highs of 108, 112, and 116 degrees Fahrenheit. Temperatures were so hot that the metal on cable cars melted and the asphalt on roadways buckled. Nearly half the homes in the county lacked cooling systems because of Oregon's typically gentle summers, where average highs top out at 81 degrees. Sixty-nine people perished from heat stroke, most of them in their homes. When scientific studies showed that the extreme temperatures were caused by heat domes, which experts say are influenced by climate change, county officials didn't just chalk it up to a random weather occurrence. They started researching the large fossil fuel companies whose emissions are driving the climate crisis -- including ExxonMobil, Shell, and Chevron -- and sued them (PDF).
"This catastrophe was not caused by an act of God," said Jeffrey B. Simon, a lawyer for the county, "but rather by several of the world's largest energy companies playing God with the lives of innocent and vulnerable people by selling as much oil and gas as they could." Now, 11 months after the suit was filed, Multnomah County is preparing to move forward with the case in Oregon state court after a federal judge in June settled (PDF) a monthslong debate over where the suit should be heard. About three dozen lawsuits have been filed by states, counties, and cities seeking damages from oil and gas companies for harms caused by climate change. Legal experts said the Oregon case is one of the first focused on public health costs related to high temperatures during a specific occurrence of the "heat dome effect." Most of the other lawsuits seek damages more generally from such ongoing climate-related impacts as sea level rise, increased precipitation, intensifying extreme weather events, and flooding. [...]
The Multnomah County lawsuit says that Exxon, Shell, Chevron, and others engaged in a range of improper practices, including negligence, creating a public nuisance, fraud, and deceit. The suit alleges that the companies were aware of the harms of fossil fuels and engaged in a "scheme to rapaciously sell fossil fuel products and deceptively promote them as harmless to the environment, while they knew that carbon pollution emitted by their products into the atmosphere would likely cause deadly extreme heat events like that which devastated Multnomah County." "We know that climate-induced weather events like the 2021 Heat Dome harm the residents of Multnomah County and cause real financial costs to our local government," Multnomah County Chair Jessica Vega Pederson said in a statement. "The Court's decision to hear this lawsuit in State Court validates our assertion that the case should be resolved here -- it's an important win for this community." In the suit, officials in Portland's Multnomah County said that they will ultimately incur costs in excess of $1.5 billion to deal with the effects of the 2021 heat dome.
"We allege that this is just like any other kind of public health crisis and mass destruction of property that is caused by corporate wrongdoing," said Simon, partner in the law firm of Simon Greenstone Panatier. "We contend that these companies polluted the atmosphere with carbon from the burning of fossil fuels; that they foresaw that extreme environmental harm would be caused by it; that some of them, we contend, deliberately misled the public about that."
"This catastrophe was not caused by an act of God," said Jeffrey B. Simon, a lawyer for the county, "but rather by several of the world's largest energy companies playing God with the lives of innocent and vulnerable people by selling as much oil and gas as they could." Now, 11 months after the suit was filed, Multnomah County is preparing to move forward with the case in Oregon state court after a federal judge in June settled (PDF) a monthslong debate over where the suit should be heard. About three dozen lawsuits have been filed by states, counties, and cities seeking damages from oil and gas companies for harms caused by climate change. Legal experts said the Oregon case is one of the first focused on public health costs related to high temperatures during a specific occurrence of the "heat dome effect." Most of the other lawsuits seek damages more generally from such ongoing climate-related impacts as sea level rise, increased precipitation, intensifying extreme weather events, and flooding. [...]
The Multnomah County lawsuit says that Exxon, Shell, Chevron, and others engaged in a range of improper practices, including negligence, creating a public nuisance, fraud, and deceit. The suit alleges that the companies were aware of the harms of fossil fuels and engaged in a "scheme to rapaciously sell fossil fuel products and deceptively promote them as harmless to the environment, while they knew that carbon pollution emitted by their products into the atmosphere would likely cause deadly extreme heat events like that which devastated Multnomah County." "We know that climate-induced weather events like the 2021 Heat Dome harm the residents of Multnomah County and cause real financial costs to our local government," Multnomah County Chair Jessica Vega Pederson said in a statement. "The Court's decision to hear this lawsuit in State Court validates our assertion that the case should be resolved here -- it's an important win for this community." In the suit, officials in Portland's Multnomah County said that they will ultimately incur costs in excess of $1.5 billion to deal with the effects of the 2021 heat dome.
"We allege that this is just like any other kind of public health crisis and mass destruction of property that is caused by corporate wrongdoing," said Simon, partner in the law firm of Simon Greenstone Panatier. "We contend that these companies polluted the atmosphere with carbon from the burning of fossil fuels; that they foresaw that extreme environmental harm would be caused by it; that some of them, we contend, deliberately misled the public about that."
Can we sue Multnomah County? (Score:3, Insightful)
Some folks need fossil fuels to, you know, not die in the cold etc. This legal aggression is classic tortious interference.
Re:Can we sue Multnomah County? (Score:5, Insightful)
There is a difference between judiciously using fossil fuels knowing it's not benign and using them freely because you fell for a propaganda campaign convincing you it's harmless.
Had more people understood the harm, or at least not been fooled by the oil companies and their sock puppets, more effort would likely have gone in to less harmful sources of energy to keep people warm.
Re: (Score:2)
They didn't "fell", they just didn't care. All those solutions had their own issues, among the most that they require people to alter negatively their QOL to work.
Re: (Score:2)
Like better insulation. With really good insulation you need barely any heat to keep warm. Then the problem is air quality.
Re: (Score:2)
It's not just that, The airport is there, and a quick search shows that in last December,
"Portland International Airport is expecting about 730,000 passengers during these last two weeks of December."
So they are all offended by CO2 emissions until they want to go somewhere.
Re: (Score:3)
By burning stuff and wearing dead animals
Re: (Score:2)
Oh yeah, dead animals too. The anti-fur crowd woulda hated those guys.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
As restitution...how about the "evil" energy companies just agree to quit selling any and ALL products they are being sued over?
So, no more gasoline, no more plastics, no more natural gas.
That should make them happy, no?
Re: (Score:2)
By lighting fires and uh living in caves. And they died. A lot.
Re: (Score:2)
They didn't keep warm. Cavemen lived outdoors and were exposed to the elements as soon as they left their shelters for their regular hunting and gathering activities. The only time they were warm was when they were next to a fire.
Re: (Score:2)
They burned wood in open fires which the EPA claims produced unacceptable levels of air pollution. Also there is a question as to whether there is enough forest land available to provide firewood to Oregon's current population, especially if you are going to forbid fossil fuels to be used to transport the wood.
Re:Self-sue (Score:5, Insightful)
A gasoline tax would make more sense but be politically unpopular.
Political grandstanding and virtue signaling will win more votes.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
There are already plenty of gasoline taxes.
Hell, a large percentage of the cost of fuel when you fill your car us IS from taxes.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
A gasoline tax would make more sense but be politically unpopular.
Private companies love a tax rise, it means they can hide a price rise along with the tax rise and the government gets 100% of the blame. There's a reasons the UK's fuel duties have been frozen for years, not even accounting for inflation, it's because the petrol giants will use it as an excuse to rip people off knowing the govt will be the one who gets it in the neck.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Self-sue (Score:5, Insightful)
It's true that practically everyone shares some portion of blame. But bu launching massive decades long propaganda campaigns to convince people global warming was a hoax, the oil companies took up a large extra share of blame for themselves.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
its not that global warming itself is a hoax, its all those retarded predictions that were made in decades past about imminent doom, which never actually occurred, which were the hoax.
Here's something you may not have realised - history is not over yet. There's plenty of time for imminent doom to arrive, especially given the rate of change that's becoming visible.
To the contrary society is a thermodynamic system, and attempts to remove the energy from the system, does more harm than the side effects of the energy consumption itself. Not only that, but I tend to dislike ice ages, and I would prefer if we skipped the next one. Moreover more atmospheric CO2 is actually beneficial, considering that geochemistry tends to bury both carbon and oxygen, which us lifeforms need to survive.
Where to start with that little lot? Perhaps by removing the stuffing of the strawman argument that we're trying to remove the energy from the system, when any honest person would admit that we're trying to change how we get the energy we use.
Then there's the rubbish argument that CO2 is beneficial as if having some is g
Re: (Score:2)
Sorry to burst your liberal bubble.
In 2022, the European Union (EU) consumed 37,771 petajoules (PJ) of energy, which was 3.9% less than in 2021. This is an 8.9% decrease from the peak of 41,447 million tonnes of oil equivalent (Mtoe) in 2006
Who knew that trying to be efficient was a bad thing? Aside from the fact that energy use can be affected by external events, such as Russia turning off the supply of gas (or them weaning themselves off it), there's been a couple of fairly warm winters, and clearly they've been working on doing more with less for some time if the peak was in 2006.
Wonder why the European union's economy has lagged behind the US? Or why the climate alarmists want us to behave like europe and keep talking about the Paris Accord?
Mate, your arguments are all over the shop. And you have it arse-about - the EU's economy has lagged and is lagging behind the US for many reasons, and the d
Re:Self-sue (Score:5, Insightful)
Practically all of the predictions were for EVENTUAL doom. Characterizing them as predictions of imminent doom was an insidious part of the propaganda campaigns.
That's not to say there weren't any psycho-ceramics actually predicting imminent doom, but that was not mainstream anything.
Re: (Score:2)
Practically all of the predictions were for EVENTUAL doom. Characterizing them as predictions of imminent doom was an insidious part of the propaganda campaigns.
That's not to say there weren't any psycho-ceramics actually predicting imminent doom, but that was not mainstream anything.
Trying to make the few, speak for all is their tactic. That's why we have denialists referencing an almost 50 year old Time magazine article that kindasorta claimed that we were entering an ice age, as if the article was scientifically settled truth.
All in service of pointing out the extreme so that you are justified in taking the opposite extreme. Which if we think about it for a few seconds, makes the denialists very manipulable.
We have people in here on the other end that want us to take drastic m
Re: (Score:3)
That's why we have denialists referencing an almost 50 year old Time magazine article that kindasorta claimed that we were entering an ice age, as if the article was scientifically settled truth.
It is scientifically settled truth, it's just on a much, much longer timescale than AGW.
Re: (Score:2)
Practically all of the predictions were for EVENTUAL doom. Characterizing them as predictions of imminent doom was an insidious part of the propaganda campaigns.
Nope. Almost all these doomsday predictions had dates. "Florida could be flooded by date X", etc. All of the doomsday predictions came and went. It's been the modern equivalent of the boy who cried wolf. And the same people in media and government that told us Florida would be underwater are still rushing to pay insane prices for that same beachfront property. Climate doomsaying is simply the latest mutated variant of anti-human bullshit that academics have been spewing starting with Racheal Carson and Pau
Re:Self-sue (Score:4, Insightful)
And contrary to popular opinion, global warming will result in more net farmland, as a result of siberia and canada warming
Growing season and temperatures are only part of what’s needed for farmland, soil is integral to the process. Rendering farmland unusable and then getting more acreage with poor soil isn’t going to be a net gain, not at first. It takes a lot of time, effort, and money to build up soil and improve it. Just like changing around which crops grow best where is going to cause massive problems, there isn’t the knowledge and infrastructure to take advantage of it properly. We all have seen what happens when the farmland everyone depends on is given to people with poor experience or knowledge, hopefully we can learn from history.
Re: Self-sue (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
The massive amounts of CO2 we have released into the atmosphere is acidifying the oceans. The oceans are the base of the food chain, maybe you've heard of them?
Re: (Score:2)
The massive amounts of CO2 we have released into the atmosphere is acidifying the oceans. The oceans are the base of the food chain, maybe you've heard of them?
If you are worried about ocean acidification, what do you think about purposely acidifying the atmosphere which will end up acidifying the oceans much more than CO2, which is the difference between carbonic acid and sulfuric Acid - or hydrochloride acid if you plan on injecting aerosols via salt water spraying.
Re: (Score:3)
Next you'll blame PCB manufacturers for people landfilling old transformers and having them leak, or for dumping them into the Hudson River?
How is your logic working there? I'm arguing that the people burning the fuel, knowing that it releases CO2, are responsible for their actions not the people making the fuel. So, following the same logic, those dumping transformers would be responsible for the environmental damage - indeed the fact that you are arguing against this that logically means you are the one who would blame the manufacturers for the damage that resulted in people dumping their products irresponsibly.
Big Oil has known and suppressed climate information for decades and they've done nothing to make their product less harmful.
If they could do that I might
Stop importing oil (Score:3, Insightful)
Stop the state of Oregon from contributing to the climate disaster.
No more oil.
Re:Stop importing oil (Score:4, Insightful)
The fact that the transition away from oil was delayed by decades due to climate change denial funded by fossil fuel companies is one of the things they are liable for.
Ideally the money would be used to help speed up the transition now.
Re: (Score:2)
What exactly would we have transitioned to? Solar and wind didn't become massively available until recently. I agree they denied climate change.
Re: (Score:2)
Solar and wind would have been developed earlier if we were not so content to burn fossil fuels instead.
Re: (Score:2)
Solar and wind would have been developed earlier if we were not so content to burn fossil fuels instead.
And we would have dealt with the wind and solar pimps purposely delivering crippled consumer product, or only sell panels to the mega-corp electric companies so they can profit and fund corporate bonuses while bitching about how “poor” they are, and need taxpayer subsidies to deploy their massive solar panel arrays, after litigating millions away for years on NIMBY red tape arguments about said solar arrays.
Stop pretending solar or wind, are or ever would have been magically free of greed or cor
Re: (Score:2)
It's not a freedom of speech issue, it's a liability issue. The fossil fuel companies knew that they were causing climate change, they studied it and came to that conclusion. They just chose to keep quiet about it, i.e. they chose to carry on knowingly doing damage and costing other people money.
That's also why the tobacco companies lost. They knew, and chose to carry on selling known dangerous products with no warnings anyway.
As an Oregonian (Score:5, Informative)
I must say that this nominee is a judicial activist, who is contorting the laws. Fossil fuel sales and consumption is a matter of federal jurisdiction under the interstate commerce clause to the US constitution, yet this judge decides to completely ignore that part of the legal analysis, and come to the conclusion that a small gas station was defrauding customers and the state of oregon by not telling them about climate change, therefore they should be subject to suit in a state court where most judges are some sort of political appointee, and the state will ignore federal preemption.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Except that their suppliers are always out-of-state.
Re:As an Oregonian (Score:4, Insightful)
These lawsuits are getting around that by including a couple of local mom and pop gas stores in the lawsuit. By doing that they are able to show it is not federal issue and keep it in the local courts. that has already happened with this case and why it is in the news this month.
I don’t mean to attack any small business, but what exactly is a “Mom and Pop” argument with selling a federally regulated product again? Let’s stop pretending Grandpa is out behind the gas station plowing acres for corn, and Grandma is in the kitchen cooking up another fresh batch of ethanol here.
At some point “Mom and Pop” becomes a senseless bullshit argument. I feel we’ve long past that with those selling gas. And basically everyone works to put food on the table. Doesn’t matter if you’re a Pop business owner or a Mom working for Microsoft. Size is an irrelevant metric and defense.
Re: (Score:2)
Fossil fuel sales and consumption is a matter of federal jurisdiction
State and local governments can levy taxes on gasoline and other fuels in addition to the federal excise taxes.
According to Google, Americans paid $53B in state and local fuel taxes last year.
As an EV owner, I am a big fan of gasoline taxes.
Re: (Score:2)
states have the power to levy sales taxes, they do not have the power to ban products regulated by the federal government, or to displace the federal regulations with state regulations.
Re: (Score:2)
Right like all other EV owners you are keen dump your costs on others. Let them pay for the roads you drive on, and let them enjoy the higher electric bills to cover the cost of grid modernization and infrastructure enhancements need to support your specific application.
You should like the typical EV owner, alright.
Re: (Score:2)
How does the interstate commerce clause apply for a gas station that purchases gas from a local distributor? Just because I import widgets from Kentucky to build gizmos, that doesn't subject me to the interstate commerce rules unless the case is specifically related to the widgets. I might not even know where the widgets come from, because I am likely to purchase from a local supplier.
Re: (Score:3)
The Clean Air Act, its called "field preemption"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Electric_Power_Co._v._Connecticut
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I must say that this nominee is a judicial activist, who is contorting the laws. Fossil fuel sales and consumption is a matter of federal jurisdiction under the interstate commerce clause to the US constitution, yet this judge decides to completely ignore that part of the legal analysis, and come to the conclusion that a small gas station was defrauding customers and the state of oregon by not telling them about climate change, therefore they should be subject to suit in a state court where most judges are some sort of political appointee, and the state will ignore federal preemption.
A greedy lawyer likely came up with this bullshit scheme to make money.
Try not to manufacture excuses as to why we should tolerate greedy lawyers or bullshit tactics. It just attracts more greedy lawyers and makes the problem even more profita, er I mean worse.
Re: (Score:2)
You would also think that state of Oregon's lawyers would be smart enough to tell the difference between weather and climate. You can't really sue Big Oil for a temporary weather event that only lasted a few days.
Re: (Score:2)
In theory all of our state court judges are supposed to be elected, but in practice a judge resigns to that they can be replaced by a political appointee, and when the elections come voters just vote for whomever is currently the judge, because they cant be bothered to look at their record.
They will win because of the location. (Score:2)
While going to the trial they will fill up their cars with gas sold by Space Age Fuel, a family run company that has convenience stores in that area.
How do Oregonians heat their homes? (Score:5, Insightful)
How do Oregonians heat their homes? 37% natural gas, 54% electricity, the rest wood, oil, LP, other
Where does the electricity come from? 22% coal, 35% gas, 39% hydro, 9.3% wind
They should be holding themselves accountable, not the companies that provide the energy that keeps them alive
https://www.statista.com/stati... [statista.com]
https://www.oregon.gov/energy/... [oregon.gov]
Re: (Score:2)
Important to note that the blend of sources for home heating electricity could be vastly different than that of the overall state blend. For example, all the coal might be used in manufacturing.
Re: (Score:2)
Bingo.
Re: (Score:2)
How do Oregonians heat their homes? 37% natural gas, 54% electricity, the rest wood, oil, LP, other Where does the electricity come from? 22% coal, 35% gas, 39% hydro, 9.3% wind
They should be holding themselves accountable, not the companies that provide the energy that keeps them alive
https://www.statista.com/stati... [statista.com] https://www.oregon.gov/energy/... [oregon.gov]
Just Stop Oil is awarding a Masters degree in Hypocrisy? And here I didn’t even know they were accredited.
Re: (Score:2)
Would it be that mix if the fossil fuel companies hadn't kept lying about climate change for decades? I think not, likely we would be much further along with the transition. Now it's urgent and there are additional costs, both to transition and to mitigate the already felt effects of climate change.
Re: (Score:3)
If you look to the source he linked to, you see he just made a simple typo; it should have been 25% gas.
Re: (Score:2)
No, https://www.oregon.gov/energy/... [oregon.gov] clearly states that it is 39% hydro. The mistake is that it should be 25% gas, as I said.
Damned if you do/ Damned if you don't. What to do? (Score:5, Insightful)
OK, Suppose many years ago the oil companies had said, "We think global warming is coming spurred on by burning our product. So we are unilaterally withdrawing it from the market starting when the gas station pumps run dry after this announcement." They would have been raked over the coals by their (former) customers, the governments involved, and the news media not to mention what the field day in the courts would cost them over their fiduciary duties to their shareholders. So, they kept on pumping and people kept on burning BECAUSE NOBODY MADE A CONVINCING CASE. More on that later.
Now, because they elected to avoid the above blood bath and both you and I continued our polluting ways (as did China to a MUCH greater degree), the citizens of Multnomah County, Oregon are suing because they could not stop themselves from burning that ever so addictive oil. It's not the citizen's fault for purchasing and burning. Somehow it is the fault of the oil company trying to prevent their own bloodbath in courts. Right er rather that's left. Leftie greenie "see what you made me do" politics. Come ON guys, get real.
As for the convincing case, I remain unconvinced for a simple emotional reason. I see the science. I agree with the science at a deeper level than most people. But, I still do not "believe". The reason is really very simple. It is reaction to idiots thinking we can stop it all "if only blah blah blah..." AND NOT A ONE OF THEM SEEMS TO BE WORKING ON A CONVINCING PROJECT TO DEAL WITH THE PROBLEMS THE WARMING WILL CREATE. Until that effort is made in a way that feels real, this whole this is perceived as a thing cooked up by politicians wanting more hobnails in the boot they have planed firmly on our necks. Of course, many/most of us react against that, especially when I note they are not biting the bullet and admitting this is gonna be expensive because we have to build dikes, deal with shifting fertile regions, put out more and nastier fires, and in general deal with those and all the rest of the real effects of the real warming.
If f..king isn't real until it is dealt with rather than used as an excuse to make my life miserable. Thus spake (most of) J. Q. Public.
{^_^}
Re:Damned if you do/ Damned if you don't. What to (Score:5, Insightful)
Well . . . it's the part where they actively chose to be dishonest. Not just failing to volunteer the information in question but actively attempting to hide it. Y'know, they might've been forgiven their product showing up in ice samples from Antarctica if they'd only been honest about it. They blew their credibility right there, same as the tobacco companies did on that whole "nicotine is good for you and not addictive" thing.
So, yeah, sue 'em. I fail to respect them more than I fail to respect the state of Oregon, and they really did make choices with an absolute and complete disregard for the collective survival of intelligent life on Earth, all so that they can vacation down in Barbados when the weather turns foul here in the real world.
Re:Damned if you do/ Damned if you don't. What to (Score:4, Insightful)
>they really did make choices with an absolute and complete disregard for the collective survival of intelligent life on Earth
Take your meds, for every dollar increase of a barrel of oil, there will be thousands that will go hungry and starve. Where do you think all the energy, water pumps, and food processing comes from?
Re: (Score:2)
Where do you think all the energy, water pumps, and food processing comes from?
The Sun ,
Its just taken a few Million years for that Energy to be stored in the form of Hydrocarbons that can we burn to convert the Energy into motion to drive the above machines.
We really should be bypassing the Million years bit and using the Energy directly from the Sun to drive the above machines.
Re: (Score:2)
It's not up to you to prove your activity is legal, it's up to a regulator to show it is illegal. This isn't smoking. They weren't purposefully adding addictive substances to their product while knowing it was bad for you.
You can sue who you want, but it's unlikely to succeed. No one is required to volunteer information beyond that which is asked for by the laws. Yeah they hid that it caused global warming, but look where we are now: everyone knows beyond any doubt that it does cause global warming yet they
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
There's plenty of ways people could deal with elevated CO2 levels, but a county in Oregon suing a local mom n' pop gas station (or a multinational oil company, or whatever) probably isn't one of them.
Re: (Score:2)
BECAUSE NOBODY MADE A CONVINCING CASE
The case has been incredibly convincing for ages. The problem is you cannot convince the unconvincable no matter how compelling your argument. You won't talk a flat earther out of their beliefs. You cannot convince a space nutter that no the latest instance of the perpetual motion machine reactionless drive is junk.
And you certainly can't convince people when they stand to lose a lot of money by accepting reality.
What BS (Score:2)
Metal melting from heat? (Score:4, Informative)
The "METAL" melted from the heat? I don't know of any metal we use in its solid form with a melting point low enough for the sun to melt it. We're not making gallium alloy cables. The story says "power cables" melted. The cable sheath melted.
markets (Score:2)
This is how markets are supposed to work. Externalities must be paid for. Capitalism is a wonderful tool that gets misused a lot.
Re: (Score:2)
And how much of the cigarette tax is used to offset cigarette expenses, vs how much if it is pilfered for reasons completely unrelated to cigarettes. Thanks for pretending that money taken by the government is being used for its intended noble uses.
Re: (Score:2)
> This is how markets are supposed to work. Externalities must be paid for.
Fuel taxes are far less messy than a web of lawsuits. This may not be resolved for fifteen years.
Then agajn, maybe lawyers on both sides are in cahoots.
Anyway, they won't dedicate any settlement to remediation so it's a scam.
Find the real criminals (Score:2)
Agreed: This was caused by vested interests lying to the politicians, politicians doing nothing and voters choosing those do-nothing politicians. If you want to find the real criminals, people of Oregon, look into a mirror.
Finger-pointing and fines won't prevent another heat dome: If the people of Oregon really care, they should plan making such weather bubbles, less likely. Yes, that's a planet-sized problem, and nothing will happen until people start saying everyone needs to change. Greta Thunberg
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
This was caused by vested interests lying to the politicians, politicians doing nothing and voters choosing those do-nothing politicians.
This point is, frankly, delusional
Underpinning *every* environmental issue we face is the sheer mass of excess humanity, each with its own demands on energy, space, sustenance, entertainment and each contruibuting to environmental degredation - Primarily in the name of "freedum" but mostly the grand capitalist market because when the consumer base starts to shring.. .well that's just awful!
Pointing fingers at the supply side and the gutless politicos who have a vested interest in not alienating their voter
Re: (Score:2)
>We really have to stop shifting the blame elsehwere and start owning our personal committment to self-destruction.
So what is the .... final solution .... to the climate change problem?
Re: (Score:2)
So what is the .... final solution .... to the climate change problem?
self-destruction.
Remember tobacco (Score:2)
That precedent punished the providers of the public health hazard for their deception. The debate is about how far this is the case here as well.
Wow, it really WAS hot (Score:2)
"Temperatures were so hot that the metal on cable cars melted..."
Hmmm. Which metal has a melting point below 50 degrees Centigrade?
"Metals with low melting points include gallium, cesium, and mercury. Gallium, for instance, can melt in the palm of a hand. Mercury is unique as it is liquid at room temperature". https://www.metalsupermarkets.... [metalsupermarkets.com]
Now which of those were used in constructing those cable cars?
Re: (Score:2)
I suspect this will go nowhere legally (Score:2)
Sure, let's sue companies providing a product we have not only deemed legal but that we as a government have built our energy dependent society on, all the while actively subsidising said product so that people can use it cheaply.
These lawsuits are so trendy, like all trends they will disappear - when they all get struck down.
Funny thing - heat domes require clear skies (Score:4, Informative)
Oregon profits as much as Exxon (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
The gas tax plus other user fees only cover 77.9% of the cost of Oregon's roads. [taxfoundation.org] So their gas tax isn't high enough to make a profit.
The economic benefit to Oregon of those roads far exceeds the other 22.1% of the cost. But if you want more direct fees then direct tax the EV owners who are currently freeloading.
Re: (Score:2)
Does it? Because dirty air costs us up to $1600 per person per year [fullerton.edu] in medical costs, lost income and so on, and that was back in 2008 so it's probably about $3,000 now.
My recommendation on first lawsuit... (Score:2)
My recommendation to every fossil fuel vendor (Gasoline, Natural gas, propane) on the date of the first filed lawsuit is to close the doors, stop sales and tell the state of Oregon the sales will resume the moment the lawsuit is dropped. Until then, anyone wishing to complain should contact the State of Oregon legal team that filed the lawsuit. Id have it posted on the front door of every gas station, propane vendor, on the home page for every natural gas company and on the paper and electronic bills for na
Portland has temps over 100 for over 70 years (Score:2)
Absurd! Suing companies that keep people alive (Score:2)
From a state that won't even let you pump gas (Score:2)
Fair enough... (Score:2)
...If at the same time they sue Greenpeace and Union of Concerned Scientists for preventing us from implementing large-scale carbon fixes.
Just a reminder (Score:2)
Hypocrites (Score:2)
Why haven't we shut down Exxon? (Score:2)
Exxon mobile knew about climate change in the 70s then lied and lobbied saying it wasn't a thing for almost half a century.
In the U.S. we have many laws governing people and harsh sentences; hence the largest percentage of prison population per capita of any western style democracy and 6 overall [wikipedia.org] . It's really sad. Yet regulations which are only laws that apply to companies instead of actual people are few, and without adequate oversight, enforcement, or penalties. What enforcement there is brings relativel
Nope (Score:2)
the metal on cable cars melted
What is shown on the linked Twatter page is damaged insulation. Possibly due to not being spec'd for current ambient temperatures. Current-carrying conductors have to reject resistive loss generated heat into the surrounding environment. Which necessarily generates a temperature gradient across the insulation.
Alternatively, suspended conductors will sag more at higher temps. Possibly resulting in them contacting structures and abrading insulation.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Not Complicated (Score:4, Informative)
The picture in the linked article clearly shows plastic insulation that appears to have been penetrated by abrasion on a threaded part of a frame. Typical industrial insulation has to be good for temperatures that would almost boil water, often 90c. It looks like someone did a very poor job of routing wires and the warm weather possibly made the cable easier to abrade, hastening what was likely an impending failure anyway.
Re: Not Complicated (Score:3)
Maybe the cable cars are made of gallium? :)
Or more likely they are using "melt" as shorthand for something else.
Found a source. Power cable insulation melted and failed, and overhead lines sagged: https://www.sfgate.com/weather... [sfgate.com]
https://x.com/pdxstreetcar/sta... [x.com]
Re: (Score:2)
Maybe the cable cars are made of gallium? :)
Or more likely they are using "melt" as shorthand for something else.
Found a source. Power cable insulation melted and failed, and overhead lines sagged: https://www.sfgate.com/weather... [sfgate.com]
https://x.com/pdxstreetcar/sta... [x.com]
Do they use that same power insulation in Arizona? Or any other place in the first world that got hotter than an Oregon summer? We should ask the obvious questions to separate fact from bullshit.
Re: (Score:2)
agree that our current system of capitalism is suicide?
No, of course not. All countries pollute, regardless of their political and economic systems.
The commies were responsible for Chornobyl, the destruction of the Aral Sea, and other environmental catastrophes.
In China, the socialist state-owned enterprises are the worst polluters.
Re: (Score:2)
Let's not forget these gems:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
Re: (Score:2)
Re: Can we all (Score:2)
But that wasn't real capitalism.
Re: (Score:3)
We can implement a leftist capitalist system where individuals still own the industry and means of capital however the state heavy regulates them, directs what and how much they can produce, and also assigns people to work for them.
I know this is gonna rankle for some folks, but how about we try something a little less extreme? How about we try, oh I don't know, just having some enforced regulations that have true consequences for crossing the line. And maybe make the consequences be more than a political theater committee appearance, a public wrist-slap, then billions of taxpayer dollars shoveled into the corporate coffers after the fact? Maybe we could try something other than flat-out crony capitalism? I know the extremes look real
Re: (Score:3)
There is a reason why communist countries are known for famines.