Epic Games Goes To Court To Challenge Google's App Store Practices (cnn.com) 63
Epic Games, the maker of the popular game "Fortnite," has launched a battle against Google in federal court in a closely watched antitrust showdown that could reshape how smartphone users get Android apps and pay for in-app content. From a report: Epic's lawsuit in the US District Court in California's Northern District targets the Google Play Store, focusing on Google's fees for in-app subscriptions and one-off transactions, along with other terms that app developers such as Epic say helped Google maintain an illegal monopoly in app distribution.
The legal battle follows a years-long debate about whether app store operators such as Google and Apple foster an open, competitive app ecosystem. The two companies argue their app stores help unlock billions in revenue for small businesses, while ensuring that Android and iOS users benefit from security oversight that the technology giants provide. The jury may hear high-profile witnesses testify from both sides, including Google CEO Sundar Pichai and Epic CEO Tim Sweeney.
The court fight traces back to 2020, when Epic launched Project Liberty, a plan to circumvent Apple and Google's app store terms. That move by Epic forced a confrontation with the tech giants. Epic updated the Fortnite app to encourage players to pay for in-app content directly through Epic's own website -- rather than through Apple and Google's in-app payment systems. That gambit triggered a violation of the app stores' developer terms. The move also prompted both app stores to remove the Fortnite app from their platforms.
The legal battle follows a years-long debate about whether app store operators such as Google and Apple foster an open, competitive app ecosystem. The two companies argue their app stores help unlock billions in revenue for small businesses, while ensuring that Android and iOS users benefit from security oversight that the technology giants provide. The jury may hear high-profile witnesses testify from both sides, including Google CEO Sundar Pichai and Epic CEO Tim Sweeney.
The court fight traces back to 2020, when Epic launched Project Liberty, a plan to circumvent Apple and Google's app store terms. That move by Epic forced a confrontation with the tech giants. Epic updated the Fortnite app to encourage players to pay for in-app content directly through Epic's own website -- rather than through Apple and Google's in-app payment systems. That gambit triggered a violation of the app stores' developer terms. The move also prompted both app stores to remove the Fortnite app from their platforms.
what is wrong with America? (Score:2)
Fortnite app to encourage players to pay for in-app content directly through Epic's own website. The move also prompted both app stores to remove the Fortnite app from their platforms.
I'm confident these tech companies just replaced the ways of the mobster. How is this legal? You will use our payment system or you're banned. Also, we are the only way you can reach are users.
FDR would have never let this bullshit happen. At least the racists back then were smart enough to at least get something out of their politicians.
Re:what is wrong with America? (Score:4, Insightful)
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Well, it's kinda impossible to sidestep those platforms, unless the EU finally gets into gear.
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It's expensive, not impossible. Just build a better cell phone ecosystem than either of the existing two.
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The key feature of US antitrust law is the phrase "in restraint of trade". At some point, the current players will be reminded forcefully of that via a dictated consent decree. AT&T would have loved to enforce terms like these.
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Cell phone networks are hardly as fundamental as wheels. There are lots of variations you can do, lots of levers to pull. You just have to find a design that people like more than the existing two and then market the heck out of it. And if you're Epic, you have the resources to do it, if you're inclined.
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Do I have to?
I mean, I can see myself run Linux. Windows, if I really have to. But Fortnite?
Re:what is wrong with America? (Score:4, Insightful)
Nothing except the walled garden effect. There's only one app store for iOS, and they expect to be paid in perpetuity for providing services once. I consider this abuse of monopoly power. Epic doesn't want or need Apple's payment processing services and should not have to pay for them if it's not going to use them. I know Epic signed up for one thing and then complained, but I'm pretty sure they felt at the time that the contract terms were unconscionable. I believe a judge is going to see that no benefit is being provided by Apple or Google once the download is complete. They should get paid for what they do, but they should not have the ability to grow tendrils into everything and tax it forever while they do nothing.
they have an yearly dev fee but 30% of in app sale (Score:2)
they have an yearly dev fee but 30% of in app sales or subs is way to much and they don't even host the content.
Now if say apple hosted netflix content takeing 30% of the sub fees looks good but take 30% just to process payment is way to much. Now on PPV movies that apple rents much on that cost do they get to keep?
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Did you build all the houses? I'm no fan of either of these companies but you can't turn up at a market someone else has made and expect free and full access. Let's put it a different way, I built a mall, if you want a store in it you have to pay rent and whatever other stipulations I set. If that's worth it to you is your business decision not mine.
This. Exactly this. Great analogy!
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OK. Nice that you want to protect me, but I prefer no protection. Let me sideload what I want, and I accept that risk.
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At least in the case of Android, you can. Google does nothing to facilitate that process though.
Re: what is wrong with America? (Score:3)
Google made changes in Android 12 to make third party app stores better able to compete. So yes, Android facilitates that, and Google did it on purpose.
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I'll freely admit that change flew under my radar. Though there's a difference between third-party apps stores and sideloading apks.
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Sounds like you need a Pine Phone.
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I have one. But one person alone doesn't change the world.
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If you want it in a phone form factor, pretty much any Android device allows sideloading or even running of unsigned firmware.
IME only somewhere around half of Android devices permit bootloader unlocking. My Moto G Power 2021 doesn't, for example. Luckily it's still working at 100%. I get like five days of battery life, I don't want to screw with that anyway.
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FDR would have never let this bullshit happen.
I must have missed that time that FDR forced the Sears catalog to include any and all products anyone wanted to list without giving Sears a cut.
Not Going to work out for Epic (Score:1)
Re:Not Going to work out for Epic (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm actually behind Epic in principle. I don't believe that either Apple or Google should receive what amounts to a permanent tax on every transaction if Epic is willing to do the payment processing itself. Giving them "taxes" for the first 30 days might be fair, but not forever.
Re:Not Going to work out for Epic (Score:5, Insightful)
Apple's cell phone hardware platform is based on their desktop platform whose software is based on... BSD 4.3, BSD 4.3-lite, and BSD 4.4-lite. The underpinnings of NeXTStep were Mach (from CMU) and BSD. And those are still the underpinnings of MacOS. Apple didn't build that.
But that's actually irrelevant to the basic point, which is that Apple is tying, and they have made themselves a little monopoly where they are the only ones who can deliver software to devices owned not by Apple, but by consumers. Users are not renting these devices from Apple, they are buying them, and therefore they have a vested interest in what they are allowed to do with them.
Epic doesn't care about users' rights, only about their own profits, but they're still right to sue Apple for what is obviously illegal restraint of trade based on an effective monopoly position.
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Apple's cell phone hardware platform is based on their desktop platform whose software is based on... BSD 4.3, BSD 4.3-lite, and BSD 4.4-lite. The underpinnings of NeXTStep were Mach (from CMU) and BSD. And those are still the underpinnings of MacOS. Apple didn't build that.
This just reinforces the parent's point. Epic has the resources and technical know-how to take some open source software and make their own mobile operating system.
But that's actually irrelevant to the basic point, which is that Apple is tying, and they have made themselves a little monopoly where they are the only ones who can deliver software to devices owned not by Apple, but by consumers.
As a consumer, this is a feature, not a bug. For devices where I want to be able to install whatever random software I can, I use *nix.
If there are enough people who don't like the restrictions placed by Apple and Google on their mobile devices, then Epic would be well positioned to pursue that market.
Epic doesn't care about users' rights, only about their own profits
Exactly. Which is the reason they're not dist
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As a consumer, this is a feature, not a bug.
That's nonsense. Convincing yourself that it's true is also a bug. I have the choice whether or not to sideload, add app stores, etc. to my Android phone. If I don't use that functionality, it's not harming me.
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So it sounds like Google made the product that's right for you. Why do you think Apple shouldn't be allowed to make the product that's right for me?
These complaints would have a lot more merit if they came from actual Apple users. My choice may not make sense to you, but there's a large market of like-minded individuals. It doesn't make sense to make iOS function like Android just because Android users and Epic don't like the same functionality iOS users prefer. I would never claim that Android should get r
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So it sounds like Google made the product that's right for you. Why do you think Apple shouldn't be allowed to make the product that's right for me?
Why do you think that Apple giving choice to other users who are asking for it affects you in any way? The functionality to allow sideloaded software is already in the OS, Apple just has it locked down with signatures and hardware — it's user-hostile computing.
These complaints would have a lot more merit if they came from actual Apple users.
They do! At least, many of them do. And I used to be an Apple user, was for years in fact, but they became more and more user-hostile so I got over it before getting to iDevices. Thankfully, in fact, because I never got trapped in their walled g
Blinded by greed... (Score:4, Interesting)
Had Apple and Google priced the stores closer to that of the credit card merchant fees... or even closer to 5%, with the ability to support direct payment (be the equivalent of cash in a store) I don't think we'd be having this conversation.
There is a cost to running the stores. I don't think anyone disagrees with that. And, early on - it probably was rather expensive as Apple and Google built out the infrastructure necessary to support this. But, over time, those fees should have decreased as the run-rate costs came down as efficiencies and scales increased. That the fees haven't come down to 'reasonable' levels is Apple/Google's own fault. As such, they will be forced to open things up, rather than keeping it reasonably priced and quiet. Like Money talks by AC/DC.
I will probably remain on Apple/Google payment ecosystem - especially for vendors that are harder for me to vet out. But, for large companies - Epic Games, Microsoft, Adobe, Walmart, Target, etc. I would feel comfortable with making payments directly with them. Will I see a change in pricing? No - but it allows them to continue with current prices longer.
What do you think would happen if the US Fed owned the only mobile device marketplace - that all payment had to go through them? All in the name of 'securing the money supply against bad actors'? Business would immediately popup along the beltway selling pitchforks and torches (with stickers asking you to peacefully protest). But, that is EXACTLY what's being done in repressive countries... China, Russia, etc.
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Power Imbalance (Score:2)
If there are legitimate alternatives to the Apple and Google app stores you'd see a race to the bottom, like companies shopping around their HQ mailing address to the country with the lowest tax rate and stable government.
There is clearly a power imbalance when companies routinely prevent pricing transparency or alternative payment methods to provide customers with information and choice. They are 2 functional players in the mobile app market, Apple and Google.
Congratulations to them, they have reached th
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There are several alternatives to the Google Play Store and what's more, since Android 12 they can serve as first tier stores even when installed by a user. The user simply gives them permission and then they can do all the same stuff the Play Store does, like unattended upgrades. In prior versions of android you needed root for that. So while Apple is preventing them entirely, Google has actually made changes to enable them...
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These companies understand the power of default choices and pay billions to keep it that way. They want to stifle potentially disruptive newcomers, the likes of which they once were.
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Yeah, of course they do. They're corporations. Their goal is to make money. That's what some of us are pointing out constantly. Corporations are inherently evil, they will do anything to anyone for a buck. That's why humans have to make and enforce laws to keep them operating in the public interest. Originally, all corporations had to show a public interest to justify their existence. Now you just fulfill some basic requirements and pay some money and they give you a charter.
But Google has figured out that
Sideloading will kill this I think (Score:3)
To me, the main thing they will have a problem with is Google allowing sideloading. Apple doesn't allow that, so the Apple store is the only viable way to get software into iPhones. Google on the other hand allows other stores (does Amazon still have a store?) and even direct sideloading on apps. If you want to go through the Google store, then yes you will have to follow their terms, but there is nothing forcing you through the store. That all said, I do think the Google terms are onerous and take too much, but that is entirely different than forcing people into the store.
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Sideloading isn't really an option for most Android users. Only the most technically savvy even know that such a thing exists.
I'm with Google on that one (Score:5, Interesting)
Hell, they could even release an
Even the older Chromebooks had a, IMHO, cool feature that you could open them, physically move a screw and unlock dev mode. Anyone could do it if they really wanted, but it was a decent barrier for 'n00bs' to not mess up the locked doen system, which is one of the selling points of Chromebooks.
Apple, on the other hand, doesn't allow any sideloading whatsoever and runs a completely sealed off walled garden.
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No, sideloading isn't equivalent to allowing third-party app stores. Only the most technically savvy among us even know how to sideload. And you are completely on your own with respect to avoiding malware, a problem that particularly blights apps that require sideloading.
Third-party appstores would make it much easier for regular people to install apps that aren't in Google's appstore, and would also give them a measure of security, assuming they trust the third-party appstore.
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Epic already does exactly that. It provides download and directions:
https://www.fortnite.com/mobil... [fortnite.com]
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What I said was, side-loading isn't equivalent. If it were, then Epic wouldn't be suing Google.
There are third party app stores (Score:2)
Amazon and Samsung have their own app stores for Android. I think anyone can side-load apps - you download an APK, open it, and it asks you whether you want to grant permission to install it.
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When you say "anyone" can side-load apps, you need to visualize the kind of person who struggles to figure out a TV remote control. That kind of user cannot side-load.
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Google doesn't have to make it as simply to sideload apps as using the app store. There is a cost to the app store because they vet the apps (minimally, but still) and make it easy to find and load the apps. They allow not only other app stores, but sideloading. Yes, sideloading is not as easy, but if you want the ease of the app store, then use the app store and deal with the cost. They allow people to do it (as opposed to Apple that does not). It seems like like Epic wants the benefits of the store but do
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They allow not only other app stores
Google does not allow other app stores. Yes, Amazon has one, and Samsung has one, but that only happens because each of those companies altered Android to allow their own app store. Epic Games wants to have their own app store, but Google will not allow this, and this conflict has led to a series of lawsuits between the two companies. No, Epic doesn't want Google to pay for the operation of Epic's app store, they just want Google to allow them to have one and run it on their own.
There is a cost to the app store because they vet the apps (minimally, but still) and make it easy to find and load the apps
If Google were to allow thir
Re: There are third party app stores (Score:2)
You can install the Amazon app store on a stock Android phone. It doesn't depend on the OS being modified.
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No, you can't. Show me a link to the app in the Google Play Store. It's not there. And when you search for it, what you get is the Amazon Shopping app.
Re: There are third party app stores (Score:2)
You're moving the goalposts. It isn't in the Play Store, but you can easily download it from Amazon with no modification to Android required: https://www.amazon.com.au/gp/m... [amazon.com.au]
I'm pretty sure you haven't actually tried installing an app from an APK file given how hard you think it is. You just click the link, then confirm you want to install it after the download completes.
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OK, so your solution is...side load.
Yes, I've actually side-loaded the Amazon app, an act which required me to disable security safeguards. What I found was that every app *it* installed also required disabling those security safeguards. Not exactly ideal.
I'm with Google on that one (Score:2)
So why is Android/Google always dragged down to the same level as Apple in these lawsuits? Apple runs a completely locked-down ecosystem and explicitly does NOT allow any sideloading, let alone alternative app stores.
Amazon has its own store in Android (Score:2)
Remember when... (Score:2)
Game companies had to produce DVDs, floppy disks, and cartridges; package them; and distribute them to brick and mortar stores who would expect to make money on the sale. They no longer have to do this which has to save them a ton of money. Quit complaining.