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Bitcoin Government

Arizona Senator Introduces Bill To Make Bitcoin Legal Tender In the State (bitcoinmagazine.com) 88

Posted by BeauHD from the let's-try-this-again dept.
State Sen. Wendy Rogers (R-AZ) has introduced a set of bills aimed at making bitcoin legal tender in Arizona and allowing state agencies to accept bitcoin. Bitcoin Magazine reports: The proposed legislation (PDF) aims to recognize bitcoin as a legal form of currency in Arizona, allowing it to be used to pay for debts, taxes and other financial obligations. This would mean that all transactions that are currently done in U.S. dollars could potentially be done with bitcoin, and individuals and businesses would have the option to use bitcoin as they see fit. Specifically mentioning bitcoin alone, the legal tender bill defines bitcoin as, "the decentralized, peer-to-peer digital currency in which a record of transactions is maintained on the Bitcoin blockchain and new units of currency are generated by the computational solution of mathematical problems and that operates independently of a central bank."

The acceptance bill is more broad, saying that, "A state agency may enter into an agreement with a cryptocurrency issuer to provide a method to accept cryptocurrency as a payment method of fines, civil penalties or other penalties, rent, rates, taxes, fees, charges, revenue, financial obligations and special assessments to pay any amount due to that agency or this state." The report notes that Sen. Rogers introduced the same amendment in January 2022, but it "died by the second reading."
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Arizona Senator Introduces Bill To Make Bitcoin Legal Tender In the State More

Arizona Senator Introduces Bill To Make Bitcoin Legal Tender In the State

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  • Makes sense... (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward

    Makes sense, because when the dollar does a Zimbabwe style hyperinflation due to the debt ceiling issues, there is a stable, secure currency to fall back on, to prevent total government collapse.

    • Last time I checked BTC fell well before cash inched down, and we haven't seen a real crash yet. Plus if the internet goes down, so did the BTC network, stick with gold

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by Anonymous Coward

        stick with gold

        In a societal collapse established means of commodity trading are also going to fail. It's not unreasonable to suppose that at some point an economy will emerge that values gold and gemstones but in the immediate aftermath you want to be the guy holding canned food who can eat it or set the terms for trading it for gold or gems (for the long term) or whatever else you need. You'll get a better exchange this way than if your holding gold and hoping someone else a. wants that more than the food they have and

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by guruevi ( 827432 )

          Just because the government falls away doesn't mean the zombie apocalypse is next. Trade will still happen, you'll still report to work, you just need a new currency, if anything without regulation and taxes everything will become cheaper and people will start focusing more on what is happening in their immediate area and environment rather than expecting a benevolent skydaddy (the government) to fix everything.

        • I agree with this. Gold will be a great fallback if the dollar collapses but we don't turn to anarchy (which would be unlikely.)

          If that time comes, I'd rather have a stockpile of weapons and food then a stockpile of gold.

          • I agree with this. Gold will be a great fallback if the dollar collapses but we don't turn to anarchy (which would be unlikely.)

            If that time comes, I'd rather have a stockpile of weapons and food then a stockpile of gold.

            Guys who stockpile gold don't even really stockpile gold. They own a little record on a website -- maybe a piece of paper -- from an investment bank that says they own gold, rather than having it in their possession. Additionally, even supposing possession, how long do you figure the average Slashdotter is going to be able to hang on to his gold when some warlord decides he wants it (supposing some societal collapse)? Goldbugs are all dumber than pigshit.

            • Additionally, even supposing possession, how long do you figure the average Slashdotter is going to be able to hang on to his gold when some warlord decides he wants it (supposing some societal collapse)?

              That was always my thought too. I figure I would be more a target with gold therefore less safe

      • Cool. And what do I buy gold with? Fiat currency? BTC? Monopoly money?
    • Do I get a discount if I pay cash now, today? Why bitcoin, why not gold, tesla shares or corn furtures? Because if they drop 10% tomorrow then the body has 10% less in its budget.What if the county body has 20% of its retirement funds safely locked up in FTX? During GFC, many state bodies lost their shirts in '100% safe mortgage loan parcels'. These sh**s have no memory of GFC losses. They should be fired.

      • Re: Makes sense... (Score:5, Insightful)

        by ShooterNeo ( 555040 ) on Thursday January 26, 2023 @02:50AM (#63241539)

        So theoretically you can accept payments in crypto where when you accept it you immediately cash out.

        What I don't know how you handle is the fluctuations in value during a transaction.

        Say you want to pay a 10k tax bill. During the minutes the transaction takes, by the time the state can cash it it might be 9950 or 10050.

        • I don't know if you can cash out bitcoin in just minutes, that is foldable bankable USD. I thought is could take hours, days, of in FTX's case much longer. Someone fill in the details. Also the 'account' you have at a broker, does not come with deposit insurance.
          • The actual blockchain transaction might take longer but you can certainly find a financial institution that would give you instant cash out. Basically you transfer the BTC to them and then, for a fee, they will give you cash right away and then do the conversion. Unless of course they have another customer who wants to buy BTC in which case they don't even have to bother. I believe this was part of Silvergate Capital's business.
        • You're also not going to do that transaction in minutes. Unless you're willing to pay a huge premium to have somebody crunch those numbers quickly think hours. That's why there's a ton of silly little Bitcoin style projects built on top of Bitcoin designed to make it faster to transact. They don't work. They're full of holes and security vulnerabilities and other assorted problems that make it easy to exploit them or do massive amounts of currency manipulation. Other than that or they're just centralized se
          • Mod Up. Lets see 1) Instant - No. 2) Trusted - No; there is a clearing time. 3) Safe - no - the extras defeat the purpose. 4) High transaction fees. My understanding is 5% or more of bitcoins get 'lost'. That means if there was an honest exchange - fees would be unnecessary. I would trust the Chinese govt coin more, but am waiting people to be caught and executed for stealing 'savings account' money. See https://www.abc.net.au/news/20... [abc.net.au]

      • Budget problems are a boon for them. There's a Democrat as governor, so they'll start screaming about fiscal responsibility. The crowd will go wild. What caused the budget deficit is beside the point. Their voters don't care about that.

    • It would make more sense to accept Canadian dollars as legal tender. Or pesos, or literally any other stable currency. Which economy would we then be doing the most trade with, theirs, because there isn't a Bitcoin economy.

    • Re:Makes sense... (Score:5, Informative)

      by Opportunist ( 166417 ) on Thursday January 26, 2023 @03:52AM (#63241585)

      Poe's Law [wikipedia.org] is strong in this one...

      • JHC. Do we need another one of these effing internet âlawsâ(TM). I followed your link hoping to be enlightened by some aspect of human behavior. Seems like sarcasm to me. And you might say, like a patent troll, âyeah, but Iâ(TM)ve added the internet.â(TM) We need a law for that?

        • Yes, we need a law for that. We have arrived at the point where there's enough lunatics running rampart that it's simply no longer possible to tell sarcasm and irony from someone actually being seriously suggesting something outlandishly inane.

    • there is a stable, secure currency to fall back on

      So you're ruling out Bitcoin then.

    • Re:Makes sense... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Joce640k ( 829181 ) on Thursday January 26, 2023 @06:35AM (#63241693) Homepage

      Makes sense, because when the dollar does a Zimbabwe style hyperinflation due to the debt ceiling issues, there is a stable, secure currency to fall back on, to prevent total government collapse.

      You think the Bitcoin ledger will hold together in that scenario and Bitcoin will be worth something?

      Bitcoin only works so long as the "system" holds together. The ledger becomes worthless the moment the big mines start going off the grid. Anybody who thinks Bitcoin will be worth something in the apocalypse is an idiot.

      • The ledger becomes worthless the moment the big mines start going off the grid.

        What? Why? All you need is enough computers to record new transactions on the blockchain. If there are fewer computers in the pool, then recording new transactions becomes (computationally) easier. All that is required is that everyone agrees on the contents of the blockchain (consensus).

    • Makes sense, because when the dollar does a Zimbabwe style hyperinflation due to the debt ceiling issues, there is a stable, secure currency to fall back on, to prevent total government collapse.

      This does exist, and it's called gold. If regular currency colllapses, do you think you can survive by throwing ones and zeroes at the feet of an angry mob?

    • LOL, you forgot the sarcasm tags. Crypto currency being "stable, secure currency", I almost wet my pants laughing so hard.

  • That's unconstitutional (Score:5, Informative)

    by Ken_g6 ( 775014 ) on Thursday January 26, 2023 @02:18AM (#63241497)

    Article I, Section 10 of the Constitution says: "No State shall...make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts..."

    So they can do gold coin or silver coin but not Bitcoin.

    • Re:That's unconstitutional (Score:4, Funny)

      by ChunderDownunder ( 709234 ) on Thursday January 26, 2023 @02:33AM (#63241517)
      Anticipating such a move, they named their crypto fork Bitcoin Gold

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by thsths ( 31372 )

      The law doesn't. It says they "may" accept bitcoin. Which does not make it legal tender.

      They may accept pretty much anything, but you cannot force anybody to accept bitcoin.

      • Isn't that what "legal tender" literally means? "You can use this to settle public and private debts, meet financial obligations, blah blah blah..."?
        • Legal tender means people _have to_ accept it for payment of any debt.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by dryeo ( 100693 )

          Not completely, witness how many small stores won't break a hundred. In America, it is good for settling debts, but even then a contract might override it. Here in Canada, there are also limits on coinage, 25 cents in pennies, or $40 in toonies as examples.

        • Legal tender means the creditor MUST accept the tender as payment.
          There is a difference between "the debtor can offer" and "the creditor must accept".

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Anonymous Coward

      This.

      Morons are gonna moron.

      Elect stupid politicians, receive stupid bills. A more specific iteration of: Play stupid games, win stupid prizes

    • Well, I'm no expert on constitutional law, but if it weren't unconstitutional they wouldn't need to introduce a bill, would they?

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by crtreece ( 59298 )
      Can you point me to any city, county, state, or federal government office that will take gold or silver for payment? It's been nearly 50 years since you could get the government to exchange those fancy green pictures of dead presidents for gold or silver.

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by davidwr ( 791652 )

        Sometime in the 2000s or early 2010s some state made noises about minting its own gold coins that would be legal tender "at face value" which of course would be much less than the melt-down value. I think this was somehow related to "prepper" (prepare for the zombie apocalypse) movement, but don't quote me on that.

        At least some modern United States precious metal coins are legal tender at face value [usmint.gov]: "All American Eagle Coins are legal tender coins. Although their face value is largely symbolic, it provid

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by dryeo ( 100693 )

        Most all have to take it if you show up with actual silver dollars or gold eagles minted by the US government, it's legal tender.
        I also saw someone on YouTube who claimed to be buying rolls of 50 cent pieces and finding silver coins in the rolls, though that was likely a bank rather then government office, still possible to get change from a government office and it being silver.

    • Re:That's unconstitutional (Score:4, Informative)

      by phantomfive ( 622387 ) on Thursday January 26, 2023 @09:54AM (#63242085) Journal

      The summary is wrong. The law doesn't establish legal tender, it lets you pay taxes (or fines or whatever) to the state in Bitcoin. It also doesn't require any state agency to accept it: it allows the agencies to accept it if they want to.

    • He probably holds a bunch of Bitcoin and this is going to bump the price a little as it works its way through the news cycle. I'm sure he's perfectly aware that this can't ever be passed. It's not supposed to be passed. It's supposed to help pump and dump.

      Bitcoin and crypto in general is completely unsuited as a currency. The lack of regulation and the fact of its value is largely found it on Ponzi schemes and money laundering coupled with the technical challenges of securely and safely transferring it

  • Well... (Score:5, Informative)

    by 93 Escort Wagon ( 326346 ) on Thursday January 26, 2023 @02:44AM (#63241529)

    I'm guessing it'll surprise no one that Senator Rogers is one of those "Stop the Steal" Trumpistas - and she also believes the latest Arizona governor's race was rigged. So her relationship with facts and logic is tenuous at best.

    • Re:Well... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Baron_Yam ( 643147 ) on Thursday January 26, 2023 @07:43AM (#63241785)

      Any politician backing proposed legislation like this should not be allowed within a thousand miles of any financially-related policy.

      But then, there are a lot of them that shouldn't be allowed to be involved in policy at ALL, so it's kind of like a subset of the overall issue.

    • True. Absolutely nothing squirrelly happened in the last Arizona election. It was a text book example of how to run a clean trust worthy election. Anyone who wants to even look at it is insane and stupid.

      • The "Cyber Ninjas" team didn't find any bamboo fibers in their forensic analysis. What are you complaining about?

    • To quote old Monty Python: "She's a loony!"

  • How do you know a fad is over? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Opportunist ( 166417 ) on Thursday January 26, 2023 @03:50AM (#63241581)

    Politicians jump on it.

    • Or they start a sitcom about it: "Coming this fall to NBC is Bitcoin Bro's, a wacky group of crypto techs and their hilarious adventures!"

  • Feds will stop it (Score:3)

    by imunfair ( 877689 ) on Thursday January 26, 2023 @04:32AM (#63241605) Homepage

    The second any type of law like that gets passed by a state the Federal government is going to sue them and take it to the Supreme Court, who will overturn the state's attempt to mint their own currency or make anything other than the dollar a legal currency in the US. They're incredibly protective about that, and there are clauses in the constitution to slap down anyone who tries.

    • Normally I'd be 100% with you, but with this Supreme Court? Eh. They might just as well demand the state move to Scaliabucks or Ginnybucks.

  • I live in Arizona and constantly am asked to explain Kirstyn Sinema, Wendy Rodgers, etc.

    **Here you go**:
    We're one of the 50 states.
    We have reasonable people. We have stupid idiots. The majority of the state is stupid aka "red".
    Don't judge all of us based on the few of them.

    Wendy is a FUCKING MORON. Bitcoin WILL NEVER BE ACCEPTED FOR ANY DEBT PUBLIC OR PRIVATE.
    Wait did I say MORON because technically she just may be a FUCKING IDIOT.

    Either way this will end up her liker 2022-Jan Bill: dead on arrival.

    Nothi

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by DarkOx ( 621550 )

      She is probably crazy like a fox. More than likely she has a bunch of BitCoin or friends (of one kind or another) who do.

      I can think of a better way to divest large quantities of BitCoin than to pay taxes with it, valued in current dollars because we all know its going to $0, what better bag holder than government.

  • The crypto bubble has finally burst, demonstrating at last that it never made any sense and never had any value. So, why do this?

  • Article I, Section 10 US Constitution:

    No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.

    On a totally separate note, thanks to modern technology, we have a viable solution for cash that is both backed by real assets AND convenient

    • There are 4 states where these are legal, voluntary currency.

      As long as both parties of the transaction treat it as currency, it is, for all practical purposes, currency for that transaction.

      Let me list a few:

      Wooden nickles, "[Renaissance-]Faire bucks", unopened packages of cigarettes (in WWII battle fronts), etc.

      Now, if you meant that the state government would accept "Aurum notes" for payment for taxes or other services, well, say so.

  • How much Bitcoin does she have?

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