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Government United States

Real-ID Requirement Pushed Back To 2025 (nbcnews.com) 145

Posted by BeauHD from the two-decades-later dept.
frdmfghtr shares a report from NBC News: The Department of Homeland Security announced Monday that it is extending the deadline to require Real ID-compliant identification for air travelers, pushing the start date from May 3, 2023, to May 7, 2025. The deadline for the new IDs has already been extended previously. While time extensions in the past were caused by a lack of full state compliance with the requirements for issuing the more secure driver's licenses, the deadline was previously pushed from October 2021 to this coming May, officials said at the time, because the pandemic had made it harder for people to get into state motor vehicle departments to obtain the new identifications. "For those who aren't aware, this requirement came about after the 9/11 attacks way back in 2001, supposedly required to make the IDs harder to counterfeit," adds Slashdot reader frdmfghtr in a comment. "If the requirement has been pushed out repeatedly to almost 20 years after the original deadline, then it could not have been that necessary."

In 2005, the U.S. Senate passed the Real ID act 100-0. It was included in the $82 billion Iraq Supplemental Spending Bill.

In an article from 2006, Ars Technica detailed some of the financial and technological challenges associated with implementing the act.
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Real-ID Requirement Pushed Back To 2025 More

Real-ID Requirement Pushed Back To 2025

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  • Maybe we can use Real-ID to vote (Score:5, Insightful)

    by saloomy ( 2817221 ) on Tuesday December 06, 2022 @09:17PM (#63109266)
    Since, you know, that would quiet the election skeptics, and actually ensure only Citizens vote. Real-ID requires you to prove your status in the US. Just saying...
    • I am fed up with papers / ID checks. It smacks of East Germany Stasi. As the Jews found out, papers please always has unintentional scope creep. I am happy to pay for a $100 Homeland security travel pass, as long as that gets me in the express line. In other countries a 'Pass' also becomes a revenue tool for lawyers, child support and parking fines - you name it. I want any such pass to to have reasonable limitations and auditability.
      • Or the South African "dompass" ... anyway, ID checks to fly are less common in some non-US countries, and it's funny: planes aren't dropping out of the sky left and right.

      • Re:Real ID fails the 'Whats in it for me test' (Score:5, Insightful)

        by ahoffer0 ( 1372847 ) on Tuesday December 06, 2022 @11:19PM (#63109426)

        Uh, dude, I don't think you ever went to East Germany. That place was way, way different than "Real ID Land". Real ID doesn't take you into an interrogation cell, rifle through your belongings, and confiscate anything that looks political. So back-off with the Stasi comparisons.

        • Real ID doesn't take you into an interrogation cell, rifle through your belongings, and confiscate anything

          Yeah, pretty sure TSA does that anyway.

        • Re: (Score:3)

          by caseih ( 160668 )

          Perhaps you haven't read the stories here on slashdot about what goes on at US border crossings on a regular basis and the so-called 100-mile constitution-free zone, even to American citizens. It happens quite regularity. Even here on slashdot we've had stories about phones and laptops being rifled through without cause, data copied, and devices confiscated (we'll return it to you some day).

          Is this as bad as East Germany? No, not yet.

      • Re:Real ID fails the 'Whats in it for me test' (Score:4, Insightful)

        by Nkwe ( 604125 ) on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @12:23AM (#63109486)

        I am fed up with papers / ID checks.

        What papers and ID checks do you refer to? How often are you challenged and asked to show ID? The only time I need to show ID in my normal life is when I travel and even then it's not really much of a burden - I show it once when I go through security at the first airport of the day and I show it again to the rental car agency when I pick up my car - these two checks seem like reasonable times for someone to ask me to verify who I am. Yeah, you could argue that one should be able to fly anonymously, but a single ID check to get on an airplane is hardly a Stasi situation.

        • Well take Australia. Asking for ID, no troubles. Making copies and storing it for other purposes, huge red flag. Keeping it when you are no longer a customer for 7 years or longer -insane. A notorious phone carrier was in the habit of demanding 3 forms of foundation ID, say D/L Passport and Medicare Card. But no, they made copies of this ID and held it on an insecure manner (too early to say negligent or not - keeping details a secret so other companies can enjoy ransomware perhaps). Next a major health f

          • Ask anyone in the US who uses a pre-paid phone number how their banks application is going.

            No one can tell from your phone number whether it's "pre-paid" or not.

          • Ask anyone in the US who uses a pre-paid phone number how their banks application is going.

            We have prepaid TracFones. My spouse just got a car loan 3 weeks ago. So....

          • ... they made copies of this ID ...

            Anonymous phone accounts are not allowed in Australia. They keep a copy to prove they did their job and that job doesn't end when you stop being a customer. Which means almost every service you subscribe to in Australia, has a copy of your driver's license. Unlike the USA, Australian businesses aren't allowed to share that data, hence Certsy or the NPCS-registered CVCheck, which act as a private clearing house for identity checks.

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by torkus ( 1133985 )

              A lot of countries have KYC (know your customer) laws. Even smaller ones.

              There's usually some leeway - you can buy a sim/burner phone that's active for 30 days but topping up requires providing ID. Ironically it makes a great reminder to replace your burner

          • . Ask anyone in the US who uses a pre-paid phone number how their banks application is going. Not having a mobile phone on you at all times is rapidly becoming the new 'Red Flag'.

            Unless you have a contact to buy a burner phone, you have to go through all the 9/11 stuff just to get a mobile phone. No trouble getting a bank account with one.

            It's a matter of luck whether a VoIP number that supports SMS will get you a bank account.

        • I have to show it when I pick up my sons adhd meds, and when I buy alcohol at a package store. They go as far as scanning the machine code on the back.

      • I'm not sure what you mean by "as the Jews found out, 'papers please' always unintentional scope creep"? Are you suggesting that the requirenent for papers happened before anti semitism? That the Holocaust wasn't all along the intended end goal of the crack down on Jewish freedoms? That the papers requirement started out well intentioned but somehow degenerate into genocide?

        I'm not being facetious. I honestly can't draw any substance from your historical analogy.

        • They're trying to build a slippery slope uphill. It's the same argument that has built up around "antifa," a non-organization where its sole purpose in being mentioned is to deflect criticism against fascism.

      • It smacks of East Germany Stasi.

        People who have never experienced the Stasi make that comparison hap-hazardously. People who have experienced the Stasi would never show such ignorance.

      • Re:Real ID fails the 'Whats in it for me test' (Score:4, Funny)

        by Gravis Zero ( 934156 ) on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @07:37AM (#63109962)

        Real ID fails the 'Whats in it for me test'

        NOT EVERYTHING IS ABOUT YOU. Now that we have cleared that up, people are selling plastic ID cards that implement a lot of weak security features that lagging states rely on. However, the key feature of Real ID is the requirements to be issued one (documentation that you are who you claim) and the lookup/ barcode on the back that can be used to verify the authenticity of the card.

        I am happy to pay for a $100 Homeland security travel pass, as long as that gets me in the express line.

        I would be happy to hear that you took a long walk of a short peer but this topic is not about either one of us.

    • Re:Maybe we can use Real-ID to vote (Score:5, Insightful)

      by pete6677 ( 681676 ) on Tuesday December 06, 2022 @10:34PM (#63109380)

      Since, you know, that would quiet the election skeptics, and actually ensure only Citizens vote. Real-ID requires you to prove your status in the US. Just saying...

      This is the real unstated reason why it keeps getting pushed back. Tolerance of illegal immigration and ubiquitous use of Real-ID are incompatible. No more driver's licenses for illegals bullshit once Real-ID becomes law. Dems will slowly push this and push it until it eventually just goes away. As a side benefit it will make Americans less universally trackable.

      It gives both conservatives and liberals something to each love and hate.

      • Your impeccable logic is flawed. More than half of states have systems in place to issue drivers license to undocumented workers. The idea being that they're driving anyway, so might as well make sure they know the regulations, and can get insurance.

        • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

          by NotEmmanuelGoldstein ( 6423622 )

          ... they're driving anyway, so might as well make sure they know the regulations, and can get insurance.

          Yes, that helps people obey state law, even if they've broken federal law. The point of Real Id. is to make the driver's license as difficult to obtain as a passport: No more cash-only employees and no more illegals mostly contributing to the well-being of their state.

          pete6677 is correct, employers, state bureaucracies, and political activists all have a reason to kill this bill but the war on terror, MAGA and right-wing politics won't allow that. The federal government can't punish the states for faili

          • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

            by FictionPimp ( 712802 )

            My state offers you both real ID and standard ID when you go to renew your license. No one needs a real ID if they do not plan to fly. I don't see that changing even if they mandate you must have a real ID to fly. Wake me up when they make it mandatory to carry a real ID to get a job.

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by torkus ( 1133985 )

              Just use a passport or passport card when you fly. I looked at a RealID when I renewed my drivers license and it was a huge PITA.

              I have a passport so why spend extra money and greatly extra effort (clicking a few buttons online vs gathering multiple documents and going in person to wait in lines) for yet another stupid ID form.

              Until they make a functional national ID (like almost every other country has) I wont bother.

              • Honestly? I was never a fan of the Real ID thing. When it started, I remember a lot of talk about the legislation for it making the current requirements more of a "first stage" of eventually doing a digital ID that would store one's medical information and much more. That's where I'd see too much opportunity for security breaches and theft of personal information, plus government tracking more than they need to track.

                But when I was living in Maryland and needed to get a drivers' license in the state, they w

            • No one needs a real ID if they do not plan to fly.

              You will certainly need one for getting into a federal building.

      • Re:Maybe we can use Real-ID to vote (Score:5, Insightful)

        by fahrbot-bot ( 874524 ) on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @12:24AM (#63109488)

        No more driver's licenses for illegals bullshit once Real-ID becomes law.

        Ya, no. Real ID is an *optional* endorsement on a state driver license to indicate that proof of US citizenship has been provided. This allows that license to be used as federally-accepted identification for things like entrance to federal buildings and domestic air travel. You'll still be able to obtain a driver license w/o a Real ID endorsement, but will then have to use your passport as your federal id. A passport will still be required for international air travel.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by dgatwood ( 11270 )

          What I don't get is why we have to physically come to the DMV in person to provide this in the first place. Logically, if we have a passport, we should be able to fill out a form online, enter our passport number and our driver's license number, and somebody should glance at the photos and info, confirm that they're the same, and set the RealID bit on our driver's license. Any additional effort required beyond that seems absurd.

          • What I don't get is why we have to physically come to the DMV in person to provide this in the first place.

            Welcome to government 101. Make things as laborious as can be so budgets grow.

            • What I don't get is why we have to physically come to the DMV in person to provide this in the first place.

              Welcome to government 101. Make things as laborious as can be so budgets grow.

              Lol, except when it comes to voting of course. Can't vote by mail! Gotta be there in person!

          • Re:Maybe we can use Real-ID to vote (Score:4, Interesting)

            by FictionPimp ( 712802 ) on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @08:42AM (#63110086) Homepage

            It's worse than that. In my state, I had to bring in all this 'proof' that I lived where I did. Do you know what that proof was? Easily faked print outs of local phone, electric, and gas bills (because nothing is mailed anymore).

            Then after going through all that and "proving" I lived at my address. The lady asked if I wanted to make any changes to the ID before it was issued, such as my address.....

            • The lady asked if I wanted to make any changes to the ID before it was issued, such as my address.....

              They only need proof that you live in the state, not proof of your specific address.

          • Its worse than just going into the DMV. I brought them my passport and my current license. Was told the license didn't count and I'd need one more proof of citizenship, plus proof of my birth; apparently, it wasn't enough that I existed. Couldn't find my social security card and it took about two weeks to get a new one. Then I needed proof that I was actually born (instead of, you know, being a god). I thought my parents had birth certificates, but they turned out to be certificates that the hospital h
            • Now that I think about it, I did not have the original license--thats why I was getting a new one. I did have a CAC card (which is technically a Real ID), bur the DMV could not access any of the information on it.

          • Have to prove that it's actually you in possession of that passport number. At least in my state, you have to have three distinct forms of identity to link you to a driver's license: proof of identity and citizenship (i.e. birth certificate and such), social security number, and proof of residency in the state. And these have to be in a physical form that can be validated.

        • Re:Maybe we can use Real-ID to vote (Score:4, Interesting)

          by Powercntrl ( 458442 ) on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @04:40AM (#63109778) Homepage

          You'll still be able to obtain a driver license w/o a Real ID endorsement, but will then have to use your passport as your federal id.

          At least in Florida, that is incorrect. The DMV does not have an "I don't care about air travel, please just renew my license without that stupid star" option here. I had to pay a fee to have an official copy of my birth certificate mailed to me (I was born in a "blue state", up north) in order to renew my license. In other words, I'd have lost my driving privileges if I didn't provide proof I was born in the USA, even though social security, the public school system, and selective service already knew I'm 100% American.

          No, it's not the Gestapo rummaging through your stuff, but it still absolutely reeks strongly of an erosion of freedoms when you have to spend money to prove something the government should've figured out on their own end.

          • The federal government not sharing information with the state governments actually sounds like more freedom to me. More bureaucracy, yes, but more freedom. Not that the US is really a federation of semi-independent states by any means.

        • Wrong it is merely proof of residence.

          The real id requirement is that you show up with a copy of a bill that proves you live where you say you do.

          That is all. It is also easily faked as i have done so. They copy your proof but no checks are ever done to verify it.

          I faked it as i needed a new license to open a new bank account. I lived there for 5 years after that.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by torkus ( 1133985 )

            Unless the requirements for RealID vary by state (then what's the point) you are incorrect.

            A quick google for New York requires:
            - Proof of identity (license, birth cert, passport)
            - Proof of SSN (original card or W2 with SSN if you have a valid NYS licens)
            - Proof of DOB
            - Proof of citizenship
            - two different utility/mortgage bills - nothing this address will be put on your ID
            - Court of gov't proof if any names don't exactly match (marriage/divorce decree, etc.)
            - and you have to show up IRL for a new picture...

          • They copy it so that if your identity ever comes into question, they can do the research and find out that you faked it. (They probably also check small samples.) If you find that you forged it, you could be charged with felonies of forgery and lying to a government official, and possibly with causing issuance of a false identification. Depending on your state, you could face five years or more, mostly for the forgery.

      • You think the Dems are the ones who employee all the unregistered aliens? The large land owners who vote Republican hire predominantly undocumented workers. Trump used undocumented workers in his properties. It's the employers that don't want this. We have 20 million undocumented laborers in this country, and the people who exploit them want it to stay exactly that way. They aren't really against undocumented laborers, what they are against is undocumented workers having any rights. You can't pay them

    • Real ID doesn't give you the ability to cryptographically authenticate a driver's license. I'm not really sure what "Real ID" does. I think it just means the DMVs from those states didn't hand them out without lots of other papers.

      • I'm not really sure what "Real ID" does. I think it just means the DMVs from those states didn't hand them out without lots of other papers.

        That's correct, all it means is they've seen your social security card and two pieces of evidence of your address. It's just an attack on the homeless and asylum seekers.

        • There is no such thing as a national ID card in the US. Nobody would pass that into law, either, due to freedom concerns. For that matter, social security numbers have an explicit requirement that they're not to be used as an identification card.

          However, having each state implement a "national" ID by the same standards is much easier to pass. And really has the same end effect.

    • Re:Maybe we can use Real-ID to vote (Score:5, Insightful)

      by necro81 ( 917438 ) on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @07:50AM (#63109976) Journal

      Since, you know, that would quiet the election skeptics, and actually ensure only Citizens vote. Real-ID requires you to prove your status in the US. Just saying...

      It would not. The states that have the most stringent voter ID requirements also happen to be the ones with the greatest 2020 election denialism. The argument has always been "we need voter ID laws to guard against election fraud." Then., when those laws are enacted the same asshats keep whinging on and on about election fraud.

      It's almost as though they see any election their side loses as illegitimate.

      • It would not. The states that have the most stringent voter ID requirements also happen to be the ones with the greatest 2020 election denialism. The argument has always been "we need voter ID laws to guard against election fraud." Then., when those laws are enacted the same asshats keep whinging on and on about election fraud.

        It's almost as though they see any election their side loses as illegitimate.

        They don't realize how this even backfires on their own voters. My grandmother never had a drivers license and had difficulty leaving the house in her later years so she requested an absentee ballot. Republicans required a photo ID to get one. Guess what happened? She wasn't able to vote and she would have voted republican.

    • Having secure, reliable, effective national ID cards & digital IDs has so many benefits. It's really easy to get appointments, do govt bureaucracy online, verify age, open bank accounts, etc.. So far, I've seen very little downside. The worst thing where I am is that there's a 500€ fine for being out in public without your ID card. The one time I got caught out, the police just gave me a notice to produce my ID or paperwork saying that my application to replace/renew it was in process at a police s

      • Yes, there are advantages. There are also disadvantages, especially if it isn't done properly. The issue kind of becomes if the benefits are truly unique to the ID itself or just a cryptographically secure means to verify yourself.

        Me, I'm waiting a month for a 4-digit "pin code" to be mailed to me so I can pay my taxes to the IRS...

    • RealID isn't free. What you're proposing a poll tax, as well as a way to filter non-drivers out of elections (obviously a Republican tactic since non-drivers are more likely to be urban and/or poor).

      Make it free, and then work seriously to ensure every citizen gets one, and when 99.5% of voting age citizens have it then it'll be okay for states to choose to use it for voting. But since states don't actually want to ensure every citizen can vote, what we really need to do is change the incentives. A mandator

    • You don't have to get a driving license with Real-ID. Use your passport card (optional extra with passport) instead.

      No mixing of state and federal then.

  • Real ID will never happen (Score:5, Interesting)

    by WaffleMonster ( 969671 ) on Tuesday December 06, 2022 @09:23PM (#63109276)

    States rightfully don't want to comply and the federal government knows they won't be able to withstand the resulting national shit storm if they ever try to enforce it.

    • Re:Real ID will never happen (Score:5, Funny)

      by arglebargle_xiv ( 2212710 ) on Tuesday December 06, 2022 @09:25PM (#63109280)
      Naah, it will happen, I can just see it now, using my RealID card to board a hyperloop train to the LA space elevator to the Mars colonies all powered by too-cheap-to-meter nuclear fusion.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by k6mfw ( 1182893 )

        Naah, it will happen, I can just see it now, using my RealID card to board a hyperloop train to the LA space elevator to the Mars colonies all powered by too-cheap-to-meter nuclear fusion.

        hey! what about flying cars? need RealID to fly one of those?

      • You're confusing RealID with the MuskPass.

    • Re:Real ID will never happen (Score:5, Funny)

      by Lije Baley ( 88936 ) on Tuesday December 06, 2022 @09:31PM (#63109296)

      I've had an "Enhanced Driver's License" in Washington State for years. It's useful for crossing our border with British Columbia. It also satisfies the Real ID requirements.
      And no one has yet taken my guns or forced me to go to church.

    • Re:Real ID will never happen (Score:4, Insightful)

      by fermion ( 181285 ) on Tuesday December 06, 2022 @09:44PM (#63109316) Homepage Journal
      As extensive analysis at the time indicated, most of the security measures enacted at the time were security theater. But they were also huge transfer of taxpayer wealth to private hands. Bush II loved doing this, as was shown with massive funds wasted in forces school to develop and give bogus tests.

      The DHS although a total waste of money had the advantage that it provides high paying jobs to otherwise unemployable people. At our local rodeo, DHS has a booth set up that will hire anyone without a criminal record.

      And the airlines like some of this as they have been trying to stop the transfer of tickets. With ID requirements only the original purchaser can use the ticket. Which allows less risky oversale of a plane

      Real ID may be the piece of security theater that fails. It is an unfounded mute with little benefit to anyone. It will be an impediment to travel to those who only infrequently and domestically, which cuts into airline profits. A family who might travel once a year is going to pay more than someone like me who is on a tourist trip every couple or few months.

    • I got my federally approved California ID years ago.

      The whole premise is frankly evil though, it's just an ID where they have gotten some proof of address from you, and if you can't provide that you can't have one, unless you can get a letter from "any shelter, employer, non-profit, or faith-based group" willing to vouch for you as a resident. It's first and foremost an attack on the homeless, especially since you also have to provide an official ID and a social security card, and a lot of people lose their

    • Re:Real ID will never happen (Score:5, Informative)

      by Mousit ( 646085 ) on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @07:31AM (#63109952)

      States rightfully don't want to comply and the federal government knows they won't be able to withstand the resulting national shit storm if they ever try to enforce it.

      Compliance has already happened [wikipedia.org]. "As of December 2022, all 50 states, the District of Columbia and four U.S. territories were certified as compliant."

      The thing that seems to still be the stumbling block is "The Real ID Act requires that states and territories share their ID databases with each other, but this requirement was not included in the DHS certification criteria. ... As of December 2022, 36 states were participating in this system." So states are compliant per DHS, but still keeping to themselves. Which yeah I'd generally be in agreement that the panopticon can go fuck itself.

      Nonetheless states have already otherwise complied with the documentation requirements. Real ID is already generally here.

      • "The Real ID Act requires that states and territories share their ID databases with each other, but this requirement was not included in the DHS certification criteria. ... As of December 2022, 36 states were participating in this system." So states are compliant per DHS, but still keeping to themselves. Which yeah I'd generally be in agreement that the panopticon can go fuck itself.

        Yes, there have long been states that wouldn't share information with one another, and also states that would. There are real ideological differences between state leaderships that make it completely unworkable to simply hand all of the data from some to others.

    • Comment removed based on user account deletion

      • It really is a failure... with a failed premise to justify it. It is also ironically harder to get than a passport. (You also forgot rural people that don't live near a DMV in people it is biased against.)

        There were some drivers license abuses before that kind of needed to be addressed to ensure system integrity, and it would be nice to have an identification mechanism that is more useful at the same time.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by pjt33 ( 739471 )

        very, very, few Western Democracies went with ID cards before the fall of communism

        Is that true? Certainly if you look at the large western European countries, Italy has had them uninterruptedly since 1931, France since 1940, Germany and Spain since 1951. (Admittedly Spain was a dictatorship then, but it kept them uninterruptedly when it transitioned to democracy). I wonder whether it's only the common law countries which didn't see the benefit as exceeding the cost.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by tlhIngan ( 30335 )

      States rightfully don't want to comply and the federal government knows they won't be able to withstand the resulting national shit storm if they ever try to enforce it.

      Yet it's already around. RealID has been implemented in practically every driver's license for nearly a decade or more by now. And there are other forms that have the same thing for those without a driver's license.

      And while it's not required for use, it's being used where available - typically at the borders and airports.

      IN fact, chances ar

  • Connecticut (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Crowded ( 6202674 ) on Tuesday December 06, 2022 @09:30PM (#63109290)

    Connecticut put a gold star on theirs . . . several years in, I’m still surprised that my license hasn’t burst into flames from pure irony.

  • Lot of good the anti-counterfeit features did
    https://duckduckgo.com/?q=fake... [duckduckgo.com]

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by PPH ( 736903 )

      Mostly for buying booze, cigarettes and getting into bars. You would be advised not to hand one of these to a cop with a bar code reader. They fixed the drivers license number encoding of your name, birth date, etc. in my state. So that bar code on your ID had better point to the correct record.

  • Sounds like a private company collecting personal data for sale. Does not pass sniff test. Much like the Canadian vaccination passports. Data collection for sale. Nothing to do with security. This is the same as your cell number as 2fa. Completely obvious bullshit, data collection in guise of "security".

  • If the ID really was a good idea, to prevent unauthorized people from boarding planes, keep the deadline. If someone doesn't have the right ID, don't let them fly. If your state is slow, well a lot of rich people complaining about how they can't fly anywhere will probably make the legislature jump through hurdles to fix. Legislatures love catering to the rich.

  • Why force people to use true names? US politics are funny...

  • I've had a real ID from my state for almost 10 years . It ain't rocket science here....

  • Such bullshit security theater that does absolutely nothing to make us more secure and everything to take away our privacy and give government more access to our lives. Why the fuck does the government need to know who anyone is to make sure they don't bombs or weapons? It is infuriating and people buy into it because knee jerk reactions are comforting to people.

    • Because society has decided that actual punishment for criminals is not acceptable and instead are ok with a world where no one can be trusted and theft is so common that business write it off as a common expense.

      • Because society has decided that actual punishment for criminals is not acceptable

        You're accusing the US of being soft on crime? WHAT??!!
        The list of countries with more "actual punishment" is pretty short, and they're not the sort of countries we want to be emulating.

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