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'How Washington Chased Huawei Out of Europe' (politico.eu) 102

Posted by EditorDavid from the Huawei-hits-the-highway dept.
Huawei "is giving up on Europe," writes Politico, saying the Chinese telecommunications company is "retrenching its European operations and putting its ambitions for global leadership on ice."

"The reasons for doing this have little to do with the company's commercial potential — Huawei is still able to offer cutting-edge technology at lower costs than its competitors — and everything to do with politics, according to interviews with more than 20 current and former staff and strategic advisers to the company." Pressed by the United States and increasingly shunned on a Continent it once considered its most strategic overseas market, Huawei is pivoting back toward the Chinese market, focusing its remaining European attention on the few countries — Germany and Spain, but also Hungary — still willing to play host to a company widely viewed in the West as a security risk.

"It's no longer a company floating on globalization," said one Huawei official. "It's a company saving its ass on the domestic market...."

Huawei's predicament was summed up by the company's founder Ren Zhengfei in a speech to executives at the company's Shenzhen headquarters in July. He laid out the trifecta of challenges the company has faced over the last three years: hostility from Washington; disruptions from the coronavirus pandemic; and Russia's invasion of Ukraine, which upended global supply chains and heightened European concerns about over-dependence on countries like China. "The environment we faced in 2019 was different from the one we face today," Ren said in his speech, which wasn't made public but was seen by POLITICO. "Don't assume that we will have a brighter future."

"We previously had an ideal for globalization striving to serve all humanity," he added. "What is our ideal today? Survival....!"

The company is also retrenching elsewhere, according to Ren. "We will give up markets in some countries," the firm's founder said in his speech this summer. "For example, we will give up markets in the Five Eyes countries and India." The "Five Eyes" refers to an intelligence-sharing arrangement between the U.S., U.K., Canada, Australia and New Zealand. All five countries have banned or are in the process of banning Huawei and other Chinese companies from their critical infrastructure because of security concerns.
Thanks to Slashdot reader fbobraga for submitting the article.
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'How Washington Chased Huawei Out of Europe' More

'How Washington Chased Huawei Out of Europe'

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  • "Nobody trusts them" (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward

    To Europeans, really anyone not from a five-eyes country, they're just about as trustable as, say, cisco or juniper. The difference is where the intelligence goes.

    Given that the US is about to shed individuality because government, academia, contractors, and so on are converting to a new religion [thedailybeast.com] where the good of the group is all that matters, that too is becoming a bit of a moot point.

    • Who knew the notion and concept of a "country" or "society" might involve people banding together to cooperate for the greater good of everyone even if individually we have to make small sacrifices?

      • Yours was the first visible comment in the trollage. Can't you at least change the vacuous Subject in quest of relevance?

        • Ignoring or just trying to suppress bad ideas does not, imo, make them go away.

          Also this AC was not really "trolling" outside of just being AC. This is a common talking point.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by shanen ( 462549 )

            I think that's a common misconception. Or rather it's only true on the long term. On the short term, the liars bury the truth in a mountain of cheap BS, while their real objective is to get the money and run away before the mess is cleared up.

            However the trolls of Slashdot are trying to become more clever about doing their damage using Subjects that basically poison the discussions. And various other techniques. You'd think Slashdot wouldn't be much of a target these years, but maybe it's for instructional

    • [Gee, I must have missed a brain fart with a vacuous Subject?]

      What bothers me about this situation is that America is apparently conceding that we cannot understand what Huawei's technologies are doing or even capable of doing. We cannot reverse engineer their devices, nor can we monitor their activities in ways that reveal any dirty doings. Or even find the suspicious features?

      "Danger, Will Robinson, danger!"

      That is exactly how a lot of the world feels about American companies and American technologies. An

      • Xi says that you get a bonus.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by shanen ( 462549 )

        I should have noted that the cloud extends to all Chinese devices, even of the Taiwanese flavor. I still buy some American devices, but there's a cloud there, too, so I prefer to source from "neutral" companies that seem less likely to get caught up in the political squabbles. Notwithstanding the focus of the article, which is mostly about how to make clouds bigger and more substantive.

      • What bothers me about this situation is that America is apparently conceding that we cannot understand what Huawei's technologies are doing or even capable of doing. We cannot reverse engineer their devices, nor can we monitor their activities in ways that reveal any dirty doings. Or even find the suspicious features?

        The communication equipment has a lot of code, millions of lines, and there are plenty of obfuscation techniques to effectively hide backdoors and beacons from code scans. It isn't a matter of understanding the tech; it is well understood to the point that we know that it can easily be compromised by either the manufacturer or a state agent.

        How do we know this? Good question. The NSA has been doing this exact thing to export technology for a long time, and why not? It is an obvious thing to do.

        Here's a

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by shanen ( 462549 )

          Basically concurrence and I read that book, among others. However I think it would be possible to recognize device features that support bad behaviors. For example, how about "extra" volatile memory that could be used to hold downloaded malware so that it will evaporate if the device is reset or otherwise poked. But, as you noted, we should have a pretty good idea of what to look for. Unless we are conceding that the Chinese are better at the games than we are...

          Minor comment on the obfuscation topic: The b

          • You can't even just dump and scan code. Hardware elements could be included that only trigger under set conditions; not at all difficult to do. Trojan shape shifter USB devices have effectively demonstrated that.

            You underestimate how easy it is to hide subversive code in complex equipment.

            Again, the reason the US government is paranoid about Huawei and other PRC suppliers is because they know from first hand experience how hard it is to detect malicious elements.

            • Having worked on HiSIlicon devices I can say they're poorly documented (in English) and as of 18 months ago the newest kernel they supported was 4.14, their libs for the HiSIlicon specific features were terrible and their security was laughable. They had hacked the kernel so you could get access to a secondary physical memory map for all of memory space if you wanted it. It did all work if you used it exactly like the examples showed but do not stray from their codepaths or bad things happened.

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by shanen ( 462549 )

              Hmm... But how would they know if they had failed to detect subversive code? I think it is more likely that they are approaching it from the other side, from the perspective of having hidden their own subversive code in devices and then seeing what the independent tiger teams can detect and fail to detect. On that basis, they could have good reason to distrust any source unless the LBJ rule is applied. https://www.quotetab.com/quote... [quotetab.com]

              Interesting coincidence. Some of my Japanese reading is a series of nonfi

      • You can have a Chinese Firewall to keep out the Five Eyes and then a Five Eyes Firewall to keep out the CCP. Maybe... the inner firewall might be calling out if your're not careful.

  • There never was any evidence (Score:3, Informative)

    by Vlad_the_Inhaler ( 32958 ) on Sunday November 27, 2022 @01:00PM (#63083268)

    Everything that was ever spouted about the company and its security risks was couched in "they could" terms, I never saw any "they are" claims - particularly none with any evidence behind them. There were enough agencies looking for evidence that I'm sure they would have found evidence for the wild claims being made, but nada. Nothing. It was all propaganda.
    Where they seriously sucked was their role in the destruction of Nortel a few years back. The two companies were supposed to be cooperating, but in reality Huawei sucked Nortel dry and left a desiccated husk.

    • There were enough agencies looking for evidence that I'm sure they would have found evidence for the wild claims being made, but nada. Nothing. It was all propaganda.

      Or they found evidence and rather than let China know it was found, remained silent so they could exploit the devices.

      • Re:There never was any evidence (Score:5, Insightful)

        by 93 Escort Wagon ( 326346 ) on Sunday November 27, 2022 @01:32PM (#63083362)

        Or they have evidence, but making it public would burn intelligence assets they don't want to burn.

        Given two very dissimilar leaders in the US have held the same hard line towards China - I have a hard time believing there's nothing behind it. Not to mention it's consistent with things we do know about China's government and the requirements it puts on its own companies.

        Of course, none of that precludes additional jockeying for political advantage on top of the real concerns...

        • Or they have evidence, but making it public would burn intelligence assets they don't want to burn.

          That was what I was getting at. Letting your opponent know you know would close down one avenue to gain intelligence. Better to remain silent and gather whatever you can for as long as you can.

        • Or they have evidence, but making it public would burn intelligence assets they don't want to burn.

          I don't think that possibility bears scrutiny in this case, because in order to spy through their devices Huawei would have had to implement spyware in either hardware or software, where it could be found and pointed out. It would be easy to show evidence of the spying without giving any information away about how it was learned about and/or found.

        • Or they have evidence, but making it public would burn intelligence assets they don't want to burn.

          In a democracy they are supposed to make it public if it is about the public interest.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by sirket ( 60694 )

      It goes beyond back doors in equipment and code. China is a dictatorship and if they decide to stop selling to you- you're screwed. You can't get new equipment or spare parts/code updates and now you have to move to another manufacturer.

      Putin and Xi have both made it clear dictators cannot be trusted- Putin with Ukraine and Xi with Hong Kong.

    • Every nation, except the 3 European, that NSA has shown evidence to, has quickly shut down these Chinese companies. Even now, the west should shut out tik-tok.
    • Calling BS on that. Huawei is Nortel technology. That they stole it is settled history now.

      "But one telecom industry veteran said that around 2004, it was clear to many that Huawei was copying Nortel's telecom hardware, and even its instruction manuals."

      search on "nortel hack globe and mail"

      https://www.theglobeandmail.com/technology/tech-news/nortel-turned-to-rcmp-about-cyber-hacking-in-2004-ex-employee-says/article534295/

      https://www.zdnet.com/article/nortel-hacking-attack-went-unnoticed-for-almost-10-years
      • Nortel's cellular technology was sold to Ericsson, who have a history of shrewd dealing worldwide. The Globe and Mail article raises the name of Mike Zafirovsky who I had the displeasure of meeting briefly, ex-Motorola, but more relevantly a disciple of Jack Welch. Nortel had been rotting for years, and Zafirovsky was the sporulating toadstool opportunistically sprouted from its mycelia. Ex-Nortel individual contributors could be competent, but anyone from any level of management in that company more than

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      It doesn't even make sense for the Chinese to backdoor Huawei products. It's not like there aren't enough flaws in Windows and every other bit if Western software to allow low grade ransomware gangs to steal vast amounts of data.

      Western intelligence agencies are dumb. They find zero day vulnerabilities and sit on them, thinking they can use them to spy on other countries. Meanwhile the people they are supposed to protect are getting screwed. They are obsessed with spying harder, instead of defending.

      What's

    • They could have released an open-source version, but no they they would rather miss out everything. They gave in to blackmail and trade protectionism. The Google Pixel is good about disclosing fatal bugs. Given what I saw, no Android phone was safe, because the closed-source Broadcon drivers needed multiple patches. If only all .cn companies were such good loosers. LG and Nokia are also in the looser club.

  • There is a simple solution... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by mikeiver1 ( 1630021 ) on Sunday November 27, 2022 @01:01PM (#63083270)
    I suspect that they would have to do as American and European companies must do if they want to play in the Chinese sand box. They could open up their code for their equipment and the chip tape outs to the various governments security arms for review. They won't though.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Whibla ( 210729 )

      Whoever(s) moderated this as Insightful would appear to be rather ignorant of reality...

      I suspect that they would have to do as American and European companies must do if they want to play in the Chinese sand box. They could open up their code for their equipment and the chip tape outs to the various governments security arms for review. They won't though.

      Except that that's exactly what they've done [ncsc.gov.uk], and been doing for the last ~decade. I don't think there's ever been a company that's had their work so thoroughly scrutinised by the security services.

      • Except that that's exactly what they've done [ncsc.gov.uk], and been doing for the last ~decade. I don't think there's ever been a company that's had their work so thoroughly scrutinised by the security services.

        Opening up the source code isn't nearly enough, you have to trust the trust the whole process [cmu.edu] of building and deploying the software. How do you make sure that the binary wasn't tampered with between compilation and the factory floor? How do you know that the compiler itself didn't inject a backdoor?

  • It's not just Washington (Score:5, Insightful)

    by sirket ( 60694 ) on Sunday November 27, 2022 @01:05PM (#63083280)

    I think the war in Ukraine removed the blinders from a lot of European countries. Putting key pieces of your economy in the hands of countries run by dictators who was to expand their influence is a decidedly bad idea. Europe gave Russia way too much power by making themselves dependent on Russian gas and it's come back to bit them pretty badly.

    Now those same countries are re-evaluating other parts of their economies- including manufacturing and things like who they buy their telecommunications equipment from. Germany has already begun rethinking their dependence on Chinese manufacturing, and the idea that other countries in Europe wouldn't want to be dependent on Chinese communications gear should hardly come as a surprise.

    Xi has made it clear that he is not interested in following the path laid out by his predecessors (e.g. Hong Kong's autonomy, or limiting himself to two terms), so Western democracies are taking the prudent step to distance themselves in case he decides to become more aggressive.

    • ^^ mod up

    • I think the war in Ukraine removed the blinders from a lot of European countries.

      The idea of enriching unstable countries is a USA bourn economic theory that has spread to the west. The idea was simple: Give the poor oppressed a taste of western goodness and money to become wealthy and education and they will themselves force democracy in their countries. It didn't work.

      It's easy to criticise European countries, but the reality is the USA did just as much in Russia (and far more in China). The only difference is the USA exported hardware, IP, and American products, while Europe focused

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by sirket ( 60694 )

        > It's easy to criticise European countries, but the reality is the USA did just as much in Russia (and far more in China).

        Investing in the Russian economy is not the same thing as making your country completely dependent on a dictator for a critical resource that your citizens depend on. And as for China- the US has a lot more power in their relationship with China than Europe had with Russia.

        > You should look into history in general. Europe's geology unfortunately doesn't support the energy security

  • Every country spies, but some spy more than others do.

    China has a reputation of both spying far more than other countries do and also a reputation of using corporations to spy for them far more than other countries do.

    Does the US and other western countries spy? Of course they do. Do they use corporations to assist them? Of course. But the reputation is that the the US is far more circumspect about it's espionage than other countries.

    China has a reputation for doing stupid, worthless crap like spying on

    • China has a reputation of both spying far more than other countries do and also a reputation of using corporations to spy for them far more than other countries do.

      Does the US and other western countries spy? Of course they do. Do they use corporations to assist them? Of course. But the reputation is that the the US is far more circumspect about it's espionage than other countries.

      LOL!

      The NSA spies more than anybody. Graphic here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]

      (note that the USA is the same color as China...)

      • Sure, maybe in technological prowess, but what has the US done with that collected data?

        I'm not making the argument of what the NSA does is right or effective, but how the US vs China utilizes that data versus their own citizens is vastly different and I haven't seen evidence of actions taken that would change that opinion.

        • Sure, maybe in technological prowess, but what has the US done with that collected data?

          I'm not making the argument of what the NSA does is right or effective, but how the US vs China utilizes that data versus their own citizens is vastly different and I haven't seen evidence of actions taken that would change that opinion.

          You need to learn about "no fly" lists, etc.

          How many people have ended up on one and have no clue why?

    • Re:Idiots ignore spies (Score:5, Informative)

      by hdyoung ( 5182939 ) on Sunday November 27, 2022 @02:06PM (#63083430)
      First off: I’m no China fan. But your sense of history is fairly off, and its better to actually understand things. Taiwan never “dumped” China. China used to be ruled by a fairly brutal government that got chased out by the communists. That previous Chinese government fled to Taiwan and took up residence. For quite a while, both China and Taiwan were ruled brutal dictators. For a long time, both claimed to be the legit rulers of China.

      Later, the Taiwan government morphed into a fairly healthy democracy while China largely kept with a line of emperors. That’s how things evolved, which goes a long way to explain why China’s current rulers have such a hate boner for Taiwan.
  • But they have plenty in China. What they do not have is open access to western Intel, except in Germany, Spain, and Hungary.

  • This moment would be an excellent opportunity for American companies (Cisco in particular) to reflect on why Huawei and other Chinese companies are being chased out of lucrative international markets.

    • Not sure. Huawei was suspected of Espionage, but Cisco has been caught red handed on multiple occations doing espionage for the US. But Europe has their own IT infrastructure companies. that are much bigger and more trusted.

      • Eventually, American companies will lose the "not as bad as China" status they have now if Chinese companies are pushed entirely out of international markets.

  • Huawei (Score:3)

    by ArchieBunker ( 132337 ) on Sunday November 27, 2022 @01:25PM (#63083340)

    People keep arguing about their telecom hardware, but I seriously want this monitor. https://consumer.huawei.com/en... [huawei.com]

    3:2 ratio at 4K. Looks like it runs $800 or so if you can find a US retailer.

  • Question: Why aren't Chinese vaccines as good as Western vaccines?

    They have all the money and brain power in the world, Don't they?

    Answer: They couldn't steal it.

    It's hard to prove a "negative", but it seems to be logical conclusion based on past performance.

    • Or the scientists at the lab that created it died from it.

      Mods, before you slam this go look up how many Chinese bio lab scientists died or disappeared from November to January when the west started to figure out something was going on.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Anonymous Coward

      It says "May have". The Dutch government are very big disinformation peddlers so take that with a grain of salt.

  • this just changes the spies (Score:3, Informative)

    by sxpert ( 139117 ) on Sunday November 27, 2022 @02:01PM (#63083426)

    so instead of being spied on by China through their companies, the EU will be spied on by the US through their companies...

    same shit, different peddler

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Anonymous Coward

      "The US, EU and China are all the same."

      "I am very intelligent"

    • Not the same at all. 5 eyes already share data with each other. So very very very different.

      • EU is not part of 5 eyes. 5 eyes members already fucked up baguetteland with the secret submarine deal between burgerland, fishnchipsland and kangarooland. Burgerland doesn't give a fuck of EU.

      • 5 eyes already share data with each other.

        As of 2020 there are no 5-eyes members in the EU. You know who the "5" are? USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and the UK. Datasharing between the USA and EU is limited to formal NATO requests, which is to say it barely happens at all.

        • Ok there's that brexit thing, true, I still think of them as EU. Mostly because brexit is none of my business or concern as a non-Brit/EU person.

          We still share with others in a less formal way and have even shared plenty of super top secret satellite data with our enemies on occasion.

          Point being, all of these countries spy on each other and everyone else and share that data when they feel appropriate as they're still allies in Europe we share with who share back.

          China is not in that club. For good reason.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Hentes ( 2461350 )

      More likely they will do their business with European companies like Nokia and Ericsson.

  • than the Yanks and the Brits, at least the Chinese are far enough away they can't really meddle in my life.
  • It's also because Huawei (like all Chinese companies regardless of actual military link), is bound by law to support the military's intelligence gathering activities.

    https://www.lawfareblog.com/be... [lawfareblog.com]
  • It's a big shame as Huawei hardware is much more secure than US hardware, the latter is full of backdoors for US agencies to use to spy on their allies. And our stupid leaders fall for the lies told by the US. The biggest security threat to the world is the US.
  • Do you trust a Russian Anti-virus company ? Along with Chinese companies, I always wondered on how to trust Kaspersky Lab based in a country full of Russian hackers and the KGB ? I have never used them.

    • Back up your computer, Run Kaspersky to find unknown viruses. If none found restore. Remember to airgap your computer while doing this if you're that paranoid

      Also some people doing this will tend to find unknown virii and tell everyone.

  • ...German voters are going to have to pull their heads out and recognize the larger consequences of blind leftism. It's 2022, that no longer get to play the diplomatic "idiot child" responsible for nothing, dedicated to picking flowers and humming a happy tune.

    Their government, in embrace of long-held leftist principles, tried HARD to ignore, whitewash, and downplay Russian aggression in Ukraine. They (and their predecessors, to be fair) have let the military rot as basically just a jobs program, and blin

  • A relevant statement in 1976, and still relevant today...

    Who profits from driving away competition in the cell phone space? Huawei, Xiaomi, and others were really starting to encroach on Apple.

    Not any more...

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