Please create an account to participate in the Slashdot moderation system

 



Forgot your password?
typodupeerror
×
The Courts United States

Bees Are 'Fish' Under Calif. Endangered Species Act - State Court (reuters.com) 130

Bumblebees are eligible for protection as endangered or threatened "fish" under California law, a state appeals court held in a win for environmental groups and the state's Fish and Game Commission. From a report: The Sacramento-based California Court of Appeal reversed a lower court's ruling Tuesday for seven agricultural groups who argued that the California Endangered Species Act (CESA) expressly protects only "birds, mammals, fish, amphibians, reptiles, and plants" -- not insects.

While "fish" is "commonly understood to refer to aquatic species, the term of art employed by the Legislature ... is not so limited," Associate Justice Ronald Robie wrote for the appeals court. CESA itself does not define "fish," but the law is part of the California Fish and Game Code. The code's definition includes any "mollusk, crustacean, invertebrate (or) amphibian," Robie wrote. All those categories "encompass terrestrial and aquatic species," and the state legislature has already approved the listing of at least one land-based mollusk, the opinion said.

This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Bees Are 'Fish' Under Calif. Endangered Species Act - State Court

Comments Filter:
  • by the_other_one ( 178565 ) on Friday June 03, 2022 @09:49PM (#62591610) Homepage

    What bait should I use?

    • Re:hmmm I wonder... (Score:4, Interesting)

      by rsilvergun ( 571051 ) on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:10PM (#62591640)
      I think this entire story is far better bait than any you could procure.
    • The summary and title are wrong. The law says "invertebrate" so it's nonsense for the title writer to say "bees are fish". It's turning a normal story into click-bait for the anti-regulation types.

      • The title and summary are actually correct, for a change. It is you who are trying to make this political. The Fish and Game regulations define "fish" as stated to include invertebrate. “Fish” means a wild fish, mollusk, crustacean, invertebrate, amphibian, or part, spawn, or ovum of any of those animals. The court here has determined that in the context of the regulations "invertebrate" carries the broad definition including non-aquatic species. Therefore according to the court, the game regula
        • by Entrope ( 68843 )

          ... and people say courts don't apply laws blindly in ridiculous ways, as an argument against automating legal processes or against silly arguments like "it says invertebrates are fish, so that must mean bees are fish!"

          Conversely, the Supreme Court of the United States has held that fish are not tangible objects [cornell.edu], so if you get caught with undersized bees in your boat, you can throw them overboard with breaking federal law.

      • by hey! ( 33014 )

        *Legally*, "fish" in many contexts are any economically valuable animal -- e.g. lobsters, clams, oysters and potentially whales are "fish" with respect to regulations. For example, check out this NOAA Inforgraphic [noaa.gov].

        I once knew a biologist who testified in an Islamic court in favor of the notion that sea turtles should be considered fish *for the purposes of Islamic law*. While sea turtles are undoubtedly *reptiles* for the purposes of scientific taxonomy, law -- religious or secular -- doesn't necessarily

    • Pollen.
  • California is endangered of being to costly to live

  • by rsilvergun ( 571051 ) on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:09PM (#62591638)
    right here [youtube.com]

    Also if you're not watching Beau's coverage of the Ukraine war you should be.
    • Or one could just read the ruling itself [ca.gov].

      The short of it is that the legislature, perhaps when drunk, decided to define invertebrates as fish in the law instead of just adding them separately. This court decided that "invertebrates" should be interpreted broadly, rather than limiting the term to aquatic vertebrates, so now bees are "fish" as far as this law is concerned.

      Yes, they should probably fix the wording because this is confusing and absurd.

      • The law was written that way intentionally in order to direct enforcement to be a function of the Department of Fish and Game.

        The court ruling follows the logic of the law... even if the logic is a bit twisted.

    • by mjwx ( 966435 )

      right here [youtube.com]

      Also if you're not watching Beau's coverage of the Ukraine war you should be.

      Just in case you don't feel like watching the video, it's because California's wildlife protection law lists invertebrates under the category of fish. Bees are invertebrates ergo falling under the legal classification as fish. This is not the first time that a land invertebrate has been protected in this fashion. It has been proposed to Californian legislators that invertebrates should be their own classification, but they've stated that it would be "more confusing".

      I'm generally a fan of California, the

  • by SlashDotCanSuckMy777 ( 6182618 ) on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:24PM (#62591666)

    Look it up.

    • by Brain-Fu ( 1274756 ) on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:38PM (#62591704) Homepage Journal

      Of course fish exist. I saw one buzzing around the other day and was afraid it might sting me.

    • You're confusing fish with birds. It's an easy mistake to make what would the government replacing all the birds with robots to watch over us years ago
    • I think you mean "there's no such thing as a fish". It's because in a monophyletic view of life on earth, every quadruped that descended from fish, from salamanders to dinosaurs to us, should count as a fish, if there is in fact such a thing as a fish.

      A polyphyletic view is more flexible, allowing for cutouts on the tree of life. It's less logically consistent, though.

    • by mjwx ( 966435 )
      I think what he's saying is there is no such thing as a fish.

      It was reported (some years ago, so things may have changed/been clarified) that after a lifetime studying fish the biologist Stephen Jay Gould concluded that there was no such thing as a fish. He reasoned that although there are many sea creatures, most of them are not closely related to each other. For example, a salmon is more closely related to a camel than it is to a hagfish.
  • by SvnLyrBrto ( 62138 ) on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:28PM (#62591678)

    Q: Doctor, before you performed the autopsy, did you check for a pulse?
    A: No.
    Q: Did you check for blood pressure?
    A: No.
    Q: Did you check for breathing?
    A: No.
    Q: So, then it is possible that the patient was alive when you began the autopsy? A: No.
    Q: How can you be so sure, Doctor?
    A: Because his brain was sitting on my desk in a jar.
    Q: But could the patient have still been alive, nevertheless?
    A: Yes, it is possible that he could have been alive and practicing law somewhere.

  • by ClickOnThis ( 137803 ) on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:35PM (#62591694) Journal

    Unfortunately TFS cuts off the text that follows in TFA:

    “Accordingly, a terrestrial invertebrate, like each of the four bumblebee species, may be listed as an endangered or threatened species,” Robie wrote, joined by Acting Presiding Justice Cole Blease and Associate Justice Andrea Lynn Hoch.

    [emphasis mine.] Let's spell it out:

    - CESA does not define what a "fish" is, so the definition of this term falls to the California Fish and Game Code (CFGC)
    - CFGC defines "fish" as "mollusk, crustacean, invertebrate (or) amphibian" with no specific requirement that the organism live in water
    - bees are terrestrial invertebrates
    - therefore bees may not be fish in the customary sense, but definitionally they fall into the bailiwick of the CFGC and CESA

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by emc ( 19333 )

      While you are technically correct, it is the spirit of the law that is more important than the letter of the law. Nobody in their right mind would use the word "fish" and intentionally mean "bees".

      This case is now opening up, with a clear precedent, a lot of latitude for people to argue that laws that apply to "men" do not apply to women. That a law that applies to "people" does not apply to a "person", etc.

      I agree with the goals of their ruling, but their means to legislate via court ruling are laughable

      • by Waffle Iron ( 339739 ) on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:08PM (#62591766)

        Nobody in their right mind would use the word "fish" and intentionally mean "bees".

        Likewise, nobody in their right mind would use the word "fish" and intentionally mean "invertebrate". This follows from the fact that fish, by definition, are vertebrates. However, the law in question explicitly states that the term "fish" includes "invertebrates".

        We can only conclude that the lawmakers who wrote this were not in their right minds.

        Since laws are passed by a simple vote, without the requirement that the authors were actually in their right minds, the court correctly determined that the bees are fish under the laws in force.

        • We can only conclude that the lawmakers who wrote this were not in their right minds.

          I'm inclined to agree with Freedom Bug, who said this in a comment below:

          [T]hey use the word "fish" rather than writing "fish, mollusk, crustacean, inverterbrate, amphibian etc" over and over again. You'd do the same./quote>

        • Exactly. This is what disturbed me the most. The California legislature was too stupid to include insects in the endangered species law. What else did they fail to include? What else did they fail to exclude? Invasive species?
      • Technically correct is the best form of correct.

      • Arguments about the meaning of "person" already happen all the time in court rooms; that's one of the favourite topics of the sovereign citizen [wikipedia.org] fringe movement. But unlike this case, where a judge decided to essentially hotfix an oversight by legislators who enumerated a bunch of things when they should've just said "animals," those never go anywhere, because they pertain to fairly robust concepts about which legal professionals have a strong consensus. (Or, at least, until sentient AIs start demanding righ

        • But unlike this case, where a judge decided to essentially hotfix an oversight by legislators who enumerated a bunch of things when they should've just said "animals,"

          The judge did nothing of the kind. The law has its own definition of "fish" and so that definition is used for the purposes of this particular law instead of a dictionary definition of "fish". The definition of fish in the law includes invertebrates, which includes bees.

          The judge merely applied the law as written.

      • While you are technically correct, it is the spirit of the law that is more important than the letter of the law. Nobody in their right mind would use the word "fish" and intentionally mean "bees".

        Do you honestly believe that the spirit of a law to protect endangered species is that only certain classes of animals should be eligible for protection?

        • Yes, the Department of Fish and Game is supposed to be regulating, let's see.... it's around here somewhere.... oh right, "Fish and Game", of which bees are neither.

          This is a power-grab expansion of their authority, which the lower court saw through to the obvious, that the intent of the law was to allow them to regulate fish and other fish-like creatures which live in underwater, but was poorly drafted, not that the legislature intended to widen the scope of "Fish and Game" regulations to every insect, but

      • Nobody in their right mind would use the word 'fish' and intentionally mean 'tetrapods', and yet:

        "Fishes are a paraphyletic group: that is, any clade containing all fish also contains the tetrapods, which are not fish (though they include fish-shaped forms, such as Whales and Dolphins or the extinct ichthyosaurs, which acquired a fish-like body shape due to secondary aquatic adaptation, see evolution of cetaceans)."

        Moreover:

        "However, traditionally fish (pisces or ichthyes) are rendered paraphyletic by exclu

    • The summary is click bait. Again we see a lot of commenters in here who never made it past the title.

      Molluscs aren't fish either. But if a lobster can be protected under that law then so can bees.

    • Let's spell it out: "You need a Stupid-Law / Human dictionary if you ever want to fight against them".

  • Legally, at least in CA, bees are fish, for species protection reasons, like the SCOTUS ruled that tomatoes, which are botanically fruits, are vegetables, for tariff protection reasons [businessinsider.com]. Seems like legislatures could have simply amended the laws rather than twisting things to suit, but I guess they're lazy.

    • by emc ( 19333 ) on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:40PM (#62591718)

      vegetable is defined as: a plant or part of a plant used as food, typically as accompaniment to meat or fish, such as a cabbage, potato, carrot, or bean.

      vegetables and fruits are not mutually exclusive, and more importantly, the word vegetable has absolutely zero meaning botanically.

      • Let's see what the Reagan administration has to say on the subject, the standard upon which modern conservatives strive.
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]

      • The tariff law in this case specifically applied to vegetables and not fruits. Botanically, tomatoes are fruits, but someone wanted their money, so they ignored the that. Not saying you're wrong about the culinary aspect of vegetable and tomato, but that wasn't what the case was really about.

    • by fermion ( 181285 )
      Legally anything can be true, even if from the pers-e time of recognized truth it is isnâ(TM)t. SCOTUS decided in Dried Scott that black peoples were not human in the same way as white people. Executive order in the US said that ketchup is a fully nutritional vegetable. States in the US have tried dto define the trancedental value pi as 3.14. SCOTUS, as mentioned, has also said the tomato is a vegetable. It is interest. Read Liebers book can animals and machines be persons.
    • Bees and fish are both known to the State of California to cause cancer, birth defects or other reproductive harm.

      Just sayin.
  • by robbak ( 775424 ) on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:39PM (#62591710) Homepage

    ..and failed. Now the courts try to fix that by shoehorning the things they forgot into the categories they remembered. It is highly unlikely they meant to exclude endangered insects, they just forgot them.

    Now a sane response would be to amend the act and replace the comprehensive list with a more generic statement that includes all living things.

    • I think this is a pretty sane response: clearly the law is there to protect endangered animals. Corporations are trying to find loopholes "technically the law says fish only and they're not fish so you must let us slaughter endangered species work abandon" and the court's response is "cute. No.".

    • by Entrope ( 68843 )

      Yes, but the job of courts is not to fix logic errors in statutory laws. They can interpret a law to ignore/correct drafting errors [wikipedia.org], but this decision is contrary to the interpretive canon of noscitur a sociis [bnblegal.com].

      As you say, the same -- and legally required -- solution is for the legislature to amend the law instead of courts defining a bee to be a fish.

      • by robbak ( 775424 )

        I see your argument - but when the legislature is bogged down in politics these things fall to the courts. And they didn't define the bee to be a fish - they decided that the laws written definition of 'fish' includes insects.

        The law's lumping of molluscs and invertebrates as 'fish' makes as much sense as including insects. Well, as written, it clearly includes insects, because it explicitly includes larvae of invertebrates, like dragonfly larvae!

        • by Entrope ( 68843 )

          The lower court ruled what I think is correct: The legislature intended "invertebrate" here to mean aquatic or littoral invertebrates like quahogs or fiddler crabs, and not terrestrial ones like bees. It's not the job of courts to rewrite laws because "well, the legislature would have included this, but they didn't think about it" -- that does not give the public clear notice of what the law is, and it is effectively an ex post facto law.

          • I agree that the court probably interpreted the term "fish" broadly because it aligned with the policy preferences of of judges--but it is also very defensible from a textual perspective. Rephrasing your interpretation of the courts' mandate: It's not the job of courts to rewrite laws because "well, the legislature would have *excluded* bees by adding the word 'aquatic,' but they didn't think about it." The law says that the term "Fish" includes invertebrates, bees are invertebrates and the legislature can

            • by Entrope ( 68843 )

              Yates v United States was a criminal case, which is why the rule of lenity makes such a strong appearance in what you quoted. This case isn't a criminal one, and you haven't engaged with the canons that would apply (such as noscitur a sociis).

              A normal reader would not see "fish" and think "yeah, that includes bees" -- even given the statute's definition of the word "fish".

              • But what a normal reader would expect (ie the plain meaning) is irrelevant when the legislature has defined the term as is done here. True I haven't engaged with the cannons, and haven't read either opinion--but I trust both courts walked through the cannons of construction and reached the result they thought was best, maybe making this a fun case study for those interested i such things.
  • Clickbait nonsense (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Freedom Bug ( 86180 )

    The act itself defines the term "fish":

            ‘[f]ish’ means a wild fish, mollusk, crustacean, invertebrate,
            amphibian, or part, spawn, or ovum of any of those animals.”

    In other words, they use the word "fish" rather than writing "fish, mollusk, crustacean, inverterbrate, amphibian etc" over and over again. You'd do the same.

    It's fun making fun of California, but this is a complete non-story.

    • by ceoyoyo ( 59147 )

      You'd think a bunch of supposed techies would recognize the use of a macro.

      • Yeah, techies always enjoy finding code like:

        #define ADD_1(x) (x == 1 ? 2 : x > 5 ? x * x - 3 : sqrt(x))

        • by ceoyoyo ( 59147 )

          Lawyers put stuff like that in documents for the same reason programmers do. Job security.

          Your example is pretty tame though. Your macro doesn't even include another macro.

    • In other words, they use the word "fish" rather than writing "fish, mollusk, crustacean, inverterbrate, amphibian etc" over and over again. You'd do the same.

      No, typically in this scenario most sensible people would pick a generic term that actually fits - such as in legal contracts where they start off with a statement along the lines of:

      "In the document below it is understood that "We", "The Company", "The Guarantor" all refer to ACME Holdings LLC"

      Rather than attempting a bizarre redefinition of a well-known word like "fish" in a manner seemingly intended to invite ridicule, they could have used a term like "included species" or "classes of life forms" or "Vul

    • I wonder why they include "mollusk" and "crustacean" when they're covered by "invertebrate".

      • Because what they meant for the "Fish and Game" department to regulate were to be inclusive of "things which live underwater", even if they're not technically a fish, not "every insect no matter what". If they'd wanted to cover all insects, they would've just said "insect".

        • What I meant is they could've just said "invertebrates" and "fish". They didn't need to say mollusks and crustaceans, because they are already invertebrates. Invertebrates covers everything that's not a mammal/reptile/bird/amphibian/fish. Basically they're being the department of redundancy department.

  • whatever you want it to be, whenever you need to make something up it to fit your needs. Oh yea that instills trust. But then all laws and regulations are optional so who cares.
  • by rossdee ( 243626 ) on Saturday June 04, 2022 @12:18AM (#62591848)

    I will need a fish license for my pet Eric the half a bee.

  • Bumble bees indeed should be protected. Courts should not make up laws. Calif Democrats have a supermajority in both houses of the legislature. They should fix the law, not punt it to the courts who make a mockery of the law.

  • The California legislature is busy trying to define what a woman is. And a "shoulder thing that goes up".

  • Does a California fishing license now allow me to hunt down and kill bees?

    • by Nkwe ( 604125 )

      Does a California fishing license now allow me to hunt down and kill bees?

      Yes, you can hunt to your limit of up to 4 bees per day, assuming you have purchased and mark your tag appropriately.

  • I heard a fun but probably apocryphal story. Back in the day, Venezuela was inhabited mostly by Catholics. The Pope said you couldn't eat meat on Fridays. However, South America has lots of capybaras (think 50 kilo guinea pigs), which live in marshes and wetlands. The Venezuelans decided capybaras were fish so they were OK to eat on Friday.

    It's amazing what we can rationalize when it's in our immediate best interest to do so.

    • by Megane ( 129182 )
      In Japan, rabbits use the same counting suffix as birds. One story has it that this came about to get around a religious proscription against eating any meat except for birds.
      • In Japan, rabbits use the same counting suffix as birds.

        Wait, what? In Japanese, you use different suffixes depending on what you're counting? Wow, I never heard that before.

        If I were creative, I'd start writing sitcom scripts centered around someone using the wrong suffix. The comedic potential seems unbound.

  • Here you go, you just gave the Fauz nooz blatherers each a whole show !
  • And the law considers a Tomato a vegetable, even though (by definition) it's a fruit. Legal Definitions and Scientific Definitions are two completely different things.

  • But when lawyers are involved, logic does not necessarily apply.

"How to make a million dollars: First, get a million dollars." -- Steve Martin

Working...