Lawmakers Urge Congress To Make Daylight Saving Time Permanent (wsj.com) 188
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Wall Street Journal: It's time to Spring Forward again, as most of the U.S. shifts Sunday into daylight-saving time. If it were up to some lawmakers, the lost hour of sleep every March would be but a fixture of the past. The tradition of setting clocks forward in the spring and backward in the fall has been a source of debate and consternation for decades. Efforts to make daylight-saving time -- or, in some cases, standard time -- permanent have bubbled up in state houses over the years. But the bipartisan cause to stop the time changes has gained renewed momentum recently (Warning: source paywalled; alternative source), with lawmakers citing studies identifying the negative effects of clock changes on people's health and the economy.
Eighteen states have passed legislation or resolutions in the past four years making daylight-saving time permanent, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures. In 2022, 28 states are weighing bills regarding the time changes, according to the group, which tracks state laws. The majority of the 68 measures seek to make daylight-saving time the permanent standard -- making the changes less likely to be swiftly enacted. Under current federal law, any state can choose to observe standard time year-round. But states can't move to follow daylight-saving time permanently without changes to federal law.
A bipartisan group of senators, including Marco Rubio (R., Fla.) and Ed Markey (D., Mass.), reintroduced legislation in March 2021 to make daylight-saving time the year-round standard. The legislation would allow similar laws passed in states including Florida, Georgia, Delaware, Oregon and Louisiana to take effect. But the bill hasn't made much progress in the past year. "Switching in and out of daylight-saving time is outdated," Mr. Rubio said in a video message Thursday, renewing calls for action. "Let's just lock the clock once and for all and put all this stupidity behind us." [...] Lawmakers hoping to make daylight-saving time permanent say it would reduce car accidents, risks for heart attacks and reduce energy use. Some researchers, however, have questioned the role that time change plays in energy conservation and its correlation to negative health impacts.
Eighteen states have passed legislation or resolutions in the past four years making daylight-saving time permanent, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures. In 2022, 28 states are weighing bills regarding the time changes, according to the group, which tracks state laws. The majority of the 68 measures seek to make daylight-saving time the permanent standard -- making the changes less likely to be swiftly enacted. Under current federal law, any state can choose to observe standard time year-round. But states can't move to follow daylight-saving time permanently without changes to federal law.
A bipartisan group of senators, including Marco Rubio (R., Fla.) and Ed Markey (D., Mass.), reintroduced legislation in March 2021 to make daylight-saving time the year-round standard. The legislation would allow similar laws passed in states including Florida, Georgia, Delaware, Oregon and Louisiana to take effect. But the bill hasn't made much progress in the past year. "Switching in and out of daylight-saving time is outdated," Mr. Rubio said in a video message Thursday, renewing calls for action. "Let's just lock the clock once and for all and put all this stupidity behind us." [...] Lawmakers hoping to make daylight-saving time permanent say it would reduce car accidents, risks for heart attacks and reduce energy use. Some researchers, however, have questioned the role that time change plays in energy conservation and its correlation to negative health impacts.
Please (Score:4, Insightful)
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Not a poll, but yes. As FPs go, to the point.
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Humans don't have a fixed clock all year round, and forcing them to have one does not do well to human health. Before there were clocks everywhere, humans didn't care, as their sleep rhythm was determined by their dai
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but then I couldn't see it very well . . .
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Daylight saving forever please!
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Why? Because when winter came, and there was less daylight, parents complained that it was unsafe for their children having to go to/from school in the dark.
This is exactly the reason that I always thought that permanent DST a non-starter. However, I think it can be made to work if the law needed to institute this also includes a provision prohibiting schools from the current trend of scheduling absurdly early start times.
When I was a kid five decades ago, my elementary school started at 9:00 am. The schools in my area now start almost two hours earlier than that. With permanent DST, in early January the sun wouldn't even peek out until the kids are well into t
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Few things are more depressing than having an alarm go off when it's still pitch black.
That never phased me much, but getting dark mid afternoon is brutal. When I worked in an office I truly hated it - it was always dark by the time I left work, which just made work feel like even more of a drag than it usually was. The winter months are miserable. Shifting the sunlight to a more useful time would help a lot.
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Why? Because when winter came, and there was less daylight, parents complained that it was unsafe for their children having to go to/from school in the dark.
This is exactly the reason that I always thought that permanent DST a non-starter.
The switching between regular and DST makes sense for people in middle latitudes. As you note, the wild swings in day and night can be a nuisance. Already, the early dawn in March is a nuisance for my sleep schedule. Keeping that in the summer would waste many hours of productive possibility for people who don't go to bed at 6 PM.
And permanent DST as you note would make the morning commute or work take place long before it gets light out.
For people living nearer the equator, the DST shift probably soun
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Because when winter came, and there was less daylight, parents complained that it was unsafe for their children having to go to/from school in the dark.
I went to school in the dark for most of my life. Neither me nor anyone in my class, nor anyone I've ever heard of had any kind of injury, abduction, kidnapping, falling-down-uncovered-manholes or whatever else because of the darkness.
This is just the most irrational people on the planet (parents) being irrational about something that's a non-issue.
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yes there's less daylight in winter, it has no relation to what time we artificially set our clocks to, shocker
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"every year some children die getting hit by a car walking to school in the dark."
Why are cars driving on the footpath??
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And with that, why are cars driving on the footpath, at night, without using headlights?
I mean... WTF?
Please explain?
Why are kids going to school getting mowed down by cars?
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Why are kids going to school getting mowed down by cars?
Because bullets are reserved for the mass shootings at school.
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Yeah, it IS nice to live in a 1st world country, Australia, where we have footpaths, lights and kerbs and people often wear clothing that's not black, nor do they walk to school when it's dark (since... school doesn't open until 8:30am or later, i.e broad daylight... so... wtf?)
If it's foggy, misting or lots of bushes, you slow down to drive according to the conditions. The speed limit is the maximum, not the minimum - you adjust your driving so that you can be safe and not kill people - this is... uh... I
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Much of Australia is close enough to the tropic of Capricorn where an hour here or there doesn't matter too much. But the closer you get to either of the poles, the shorter days get in winter.
An example of being in the wrong time zone is Spain, in permanent day-light saving 1 hour ahead of London. From personal experience, yes, the sun is only starting to rise at 8:30am in winter in the northwest of the country, i.e. Asturias and Galicia whose coastal cities are further away from the equator than Hobart.
Re: Please (Score:2)
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Easy. If kids are dying during those hours and conditions, just make it illegal to drive during those times. If the conditions are so treacherous that a momentary distraction is killing kids, then it is a no-brainer to stop all driving where there are not secure pedestrian walkways. /s
Blaming the changing amount of sunlight during the 20 days it takes for the sunrise/sunset to catch up with the DST change is like shaking your fist at the sun and expecting results.
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...
I am not, thankfully, a parent, but if I was I wouldn't be dressing my kids in dark clothing, nor sending them to school in the dark (and... why would they be going to school at night???) on a route which has traffic.
Just me, sorry, while I don't have or really like kids, I would rather not have them killed by morons who can't stay on the roads - and I'm not at all sorry to call a driver who can't keep their vehicle on the actual road a moron.
If kids are not on a road, they shouldn't be killed by cars -
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Look, I've spent time in Australia. When 6pm hits, it goes dark. When 6am hits the sun appears high in the sky. But in other places (say Scotland), you have sunset/sunrise at 8am/4pm in the winter and 4am/10pm in the summer. You can pretty much go to work/school in the dark and come home in the dark, even working non-stupid hours (school starts at 9am and finishes at 4pm). You could start school later, but that just means its even darker when walking home in the evening. Its just the way life is when you do
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Look, I've spent time in Australia. When 6pm hits, it goes dark. When 6am hits the sun appears high in the sky
Ha, you couldn't have spent very long there if you think the sun rises and sets at the same hour year round. That's straight up impossible unless they shorten and lengthen their day based on what time of year it was and I know they don't do that.
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Politics et al (Score:2)
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That's right up there with "the only reason we have to wear these masks is so the government can have power over us"
I doubt anything will be done (Score:4, Insightful)
Every year or two we hear this same story, hear about how the momentum for change is growing, hear about how congress-critters are lining up behind the idea... then we hear absolutely nothing further for another year or two, until the exact same story comes back to the fore.
I imagine this may eventually happen - about the same time that fusion energy becomes commercially feasible.
The difference is brick and mortar is dying off (Score:2)
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You need a significant amount of momentum to get a change like this done. It happens. I have zero doubt it'll happen. Your story is identical to that in many places in the world which dropped daylight savings.
Give it a few years.
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Same ole crap (Score:3)
Every single year.
They're never gonna do it, who knows why. Every year for the last several decades same exact news cycle when we spring forward or fall back.
Since they're never going to do it, I'd support legislation to ban news articles discussing it.
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I think you’re wrong. Unlike the stories from a decade ago, the last few years have seen several, individual states pass laws that are set to go into effect over the upcoming years, as well as more and more prominent politicians at the federal level calling it out. The number of states passing such laws has increased rapidly and if not for COVID and the last few years being so insane, we might have seen federal legislation already pass. We’re finally seeing a build up to when this thing breaks.
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the last few years
Isn't it pathetic that full-time politicians need that much time for something so simple?
This is not a complicated law. Decide which time you want to stay on, then write what's two sentences at most, vote on it, done.
Any group of halfway competent people could get that shit done in an hour, tops.
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This is not a complicated law.
Laws are not complicated. Agreeing on the law in a way that suits all parties representing all their consti... vested interests is complicated.
It's a sign of a functioning system that they don't chop and change important shit on a whim.
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Agreeing on the law in a way that suits all parties representing all their consti... vested interests is complicated.
Of course it's not the writing that's tricky.
Pretty much NOBODY likes the system where twice a year we throw everyone a spinner. The only interests are staying on summer or winter time. It shouldn't be hard to find a solution to that, if someone gave a fuck.
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As someone who does not observe DST, while living in a location that generally does observe it, it is my conclusion that the switch is the only thing that makes DST even moderately effective. If we went to 100% DST year round (like the article suggests), then people would eventually adapt and just do things later. They would get to work an hour later, eat lunch at 1pm instead of noon, stay at work later, and eat dinner from 7-8 instead of 6-7, etc. It's only the switch, where for part of the year the day
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the last few years
Isn't it pathetic that full-time politicians need that much time for something so simple?
Ah, no. That is not the pathetic part.
The pathetic part is watching Mass Ignorance fail to recognize a Representatives duty to distract.
That's not a nuisance. They're at work.
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Every single year. They're never gonna do it
Until they do do it. Your complaint is identical to that of people in every country which has abolished daylight savings. It takes time to build the critical mass needed for change, and in the runup to that change you see an endless string of comments like yours.
Since they're never going to do it, I'd support legislation to ban news articles discussing it.
Self-fulfilling prophecy? Hard to build momentum for change when you're not allowed to discuss it. Are you sure you're not part of a false flag operation funded by Big TimeChangers?
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Every year for the last several decades same exact news cycle when we spring forward or fall back. Since they're never going to do it...
The Uniform Time Act was passed in 1966 in the US, to align the DST standard established in 1918. Want to know what DST "Freedom" looked like before then?
"Iowa once had 23 different pairs of start and end dates throughout the state."
You know that old saying about giving a man enough rope? Yeah, well there ya go.
And today, two states (Hawaii and Arizona) do not observe DST (haven't since the 60s), as well as the commonwealths of Puerto Rico and the Northern Marina Islands; the U.S. Virgin Islands; Americ
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Arizona claims they don't observe DST, but that's because they try to ignore the Navajo Nation in their NE corner. DST is observed there.
Well, not sure what the Navajo Nation has against their home state rule, but you've probably highlighted yet another layer of complexity on any decision to change this; Culture.
Just leave on standard time. Forget DST (Score:2)
We recently had a referendum on the issue in Alberta. Nearly everyone opposes a time change twice a year, but since the question was whether we should keep DST year round, a slim majority of voters shot that down. That doesn't mean they wanted to keep changing the clock. But rather they didn't want DST, which by the way is the exact same as changing our time zone from MST to CST.
The real issue is that time zones are rarely lined up such that solar noon is at 12pm. Often things are skewed quite far already
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That doesn't mean they wanted to keep changing the clock. But rather they didn't want DST, which by the way is the exact same as changing our time zone from MST to CST.
It doesn't even necessarily mean that. Over here in New Jersey, EVERYONE complains about how much they hate Daylight Savings Time, and they wish we'd get rid of it. But if you ask them why, it's because they hate how early it gets dark in the winter.
People here hate Standard Time, but they don't understand how time zones work. "Daylight Savings Time" just means "changing the clocks" to most people. They want to be in Daylight Savings Time permanently, but they don't know how to express it, so things stay as
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In Trenton, NJ [timeanddate.com] there's about 9 1/4 hours of daylight on the shortest days, with the daylight hours stretching between 7:17am and 4:36pm. You could get more light later in the day, but that would just make it darker earlier. There's only about 4.5 hours on eith
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Yes. Finally, someone who gets it. From a practical perspective, the DST change mainly affects two things - work times and school times. Both of those developed based on solar noon being roughly 12 PM. It would be absolute idiocy to go to "permanent DST." Of course, it's idiocy to use DST at all. If people want an extra hour of sunlight after work, convince the boss to let you work 8-4 instead of 9-5.
Maybe we can also finally give Pi a fixed number? (Score:2)
If we just legislate that it could save a lot of electricity that gets wasted on calculating it. lol (yeah, that's a paraphrase of what I read in a Heinlein story)
P.S. Instead of going for making DST permanent, just say we're ending it. If we want to make that happen then that difference, which isn't a difference, can make a difference.
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Pi is already a fixed number. You're thinking of something else about Pi.
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Pi is already a fixed number. You're thinking of something else about Pi.
I’m afraid of numbers that can’t be expressed as a fraction. It’s an irrational fear...
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Split. The difference (Score:3)
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Every timezone revolves around hours. You are talking about a whole new can of worms.
I can't imagine living in a new timezone UTC-4.5 that is 30 minutes behind. It would be 10:15am in one state, but 9:45am in the one that is offset 30 minutes. Coordinating appointments would be a nightmare.
People keep forgetting why we have it (Score:3)
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I live in a state that stretches north to 15 lattitude and south to 35 lattitude. Ish.
We always vote NO to daylight saving as it's blatantly stupid for a state with such a huge, 20 variance in lattitude and hence dawn/sunset times.
One political party managed to get a law passed that we'd suffer it for 3 years and then have vote on it.
That vote shot it down, again.
Currently that partie's elected representatives can commute to work on a single motorbike... (though this is a decade or so after that DST vote -
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Daylight savings is good for everyone in France, Germany, UK and the USA north of about Boston plus all of Scandinavia and Canada.
No, it isn't.
We have a similar discussion in Germany and not one voice is strongly in favour of it. Everyone hates the switching of times.
It WOULD be a ton easier to have school start an hour later in winter. Not that it really matters so much, how many kids are walking to school through unlit forest anyway?
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> how many kids are walking to school through unlit forest anyway?
Not as many as there used to be. Fortunately, the candy-house witch was caught and prosecuted, so it should be safer now.
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> You can't suddenly make school start at 9:30 because it throws off all the daycare and everyone's work schedules.
Nonsense. Many businesses have summer and winter hours. In fact, most of them outside the pajama class.
People with advanced degrees can learn to cope with reality too.
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I live in Saskatchewan (Canada), and we don't have DST, and the only real problem growing up was that TV programs kept bouncing around twice a year as other places changed their time. Sure, it was dark when we went to school. It just wasn't a problem.
My friends in other provinces complain about DST twice a year, and we just carry on with life. Heck, even the Yukon (right up beside Alaska) got rid of DST recently. They're slightly north of Michigan.
The only times I've had issues with DST have occured when I
Better Solution (Score:2)
Why not just do "Fall back" every year? I need that extra hour of sleep, and I hate losing an hour of sleep in the stupid "spring forward" stupidity. Just have fall back for fucks sake!
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And, in just 24 years, we'll have had an extra day of sleep! It's a well-rested win-win!
Yep (Score:2)
Do it boys and girls in DC, get that law passed. I don't think there is a person in the planet that wants daylight savings
proof of failure (Score:2)
This thing, which has been going on for years and years, is evidence that our political system is a failure.
The evidence is in, popular opinion is clear (nobody likes the time switching), the only open issue is a minor item (whether to stay on winter or summer time) - and yet, the people we pay to manage stuff like this can't get it done.
Why?
My best guess: There's no powerful lobby interest behind it. Since nobody stands to profit from this law, except of course, all of us, there's no real interest in movin
DST fatigue (Score:2)
How many times a year to I have to hear about this?
Oh..right..
Permanently gone? Awesome. (Score:2)
Permanently on?
Talk to sleep professionals about it first An extra daylight hour in the evening is ultimately just a convenience that is certainly nice to have, but losing an hour of daylight in the morning, particularly in the winter and in areas further from the equator than about 40 degrees or so, will have very serious health repercussions that are considerably longer in duration than the ill health effects caused by a biannual time shift.
I'm not suggesting that we keep turning our clocks back and
No! Never leap forward again! (Score:4, Insightful)
Either compromise by making a half hour change and then never changing again, or never leap forward again. Do not keep DST permanently.
Getting up at night and not having the sun come up for 1-2 hours is murder on me. Every year as spring forward approaches, my circadian rhythm starts to get more normalized right before the stupid 'leap forward' and is then thrown off horribly for almost two months until we get back to that same morning sunrise time.
Looking at this year's sunrise times, I have a wake-up time that at least lets me see twilight as I'm getting ready 232 days out of the year with regular old DST, with one very negative sleep phase adjustment and one neutral-positive adjustment.
If we just got rid of DST, it would be 287 days out of the year, but zero adjustments.
If we had permanent DST, it would only be 182 days, but zero adjustments.
It's trivial to stay up past sunset (which would be as late as almost 8pm with no DST), but it is excruciating to get up at night to start my day. Please just eliminate DST. Do not adopt it permanently.
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The real fix is to change the way we work so that people can get up when it suits them. Many businesses already have flexitime with core hours that employees can work around as they choose.
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Thanks to COVID many of us live that reality - it's called Working from Home.
Heck, a colleague of mine is absent for several hours for weekday tennis during 9-5 and no one from management gives a darn as long as that employee does their fair share over a 7 day average.
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Plenty of jobs for which flex time will never be desirable: skilled nursing, for example.
It's that time again; FOOD FIGHT! (Score:2)
Meanwhile, Major Zulu and Captain UTC sit quietly in the back of the cafeteria while the semi-annual food fight breaks out again.
(Major Zulu) "Do you think they'll ever consider eating at our table to avoid this?"
(Captain UTC) "Not sure, Sir. We've ate here for decades now. They seem to...enjoy this."
No... (Score:2)
Long Overdue (Score:2)
Who The F#K is Preserving Our Present DST? (Score:2)
No one has any interest to change. (Score:2)
All the politicians want to be busy bodies and do nothing. All the championing groups want to tell others what to do. Between these two, it's just a ritualistic headline grabber every year. You just c&p last year's article and move on.
The easiest solution is to amend the old law to allow states to decide if they are on permanent DST. This maybe hard to do but it's easier than the other wasted efforts.
The next easiest option is to get rid of DST all over and let states decide if and when they want to
They show the science every year and it's ignored (Score:2)
The science has been here for years.
For weeks after the time shift there is an increase in:
Heart attacks, Pulmonary embolisms, Strokes, Car accidents, Trauma.
There is a decrease in productivity,
This has been the argument for years to stop this madness, and every year their are lawmakers who bring it up, it makes news for a week and then dies without a vote. Then every year the movement "gains more steam" per the press.
Report it when it actually goes to a vote.
2 static timezones makes the most sense for the US (Score:2)
the twice-annual conversation... (Score:2)
...is right on schedule, just as it is every year since /. first started.
I was wondering... (Score:2)
Stupid trash is stupid (Score:2)
The only thing (Score:2)
The only thing that is going to be permanent is the semi-annual discussions about making DST permanent.
Please no (Score:2)
I like it how it is.
I am not a cow, I can adapt to clock changes.
Always the same story, won't happen (Score:2)
One third want DST to be permanent, one third want it to get rid of it, and one third are fine with the current situation. Reaching an agreement is essentially impossible, even though the majority want things to change.
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all will adjust their "begin" times an hour later, so DST will be nullified.
The problem is that the "begin" time will not be synchronized. Some businesses and schools will switch starting times on a different date than others, which will cause confusion and problems for carpoolers and parents who drop off students on their way to work.
The obvious solution is for the government to set the "change start time" date by law.
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The obvious solution is for the government to set the "change start time" date by law.
Uh, they did. The Uniform Time Act was passed in 1966 in the US, to align the DST standard established in 1918. To give you an example of how bad it was before then, Iowa once had 23 different pairs of start and end dates throughout the state.
So if that's still a problem today, it's because people/states have chosen to ignore it.
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Was tried. Turned out to be massively unpopular in practice. Was quickly repealed.
Might not be the same this time, but don't count on it.
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It's amazing how hysterical people get about that. We actually did stay on DST for a while one year when I was in the second grade. It didn't actually create much of a problem, but to see the news reports you'd think it killed 1/3rd of the population of something.
But don't worry, there's enough pointy hairs out there who consider opening an hour later to be a bigger sin than breaking all 10 commandments at once to prevent your scenario from coming to pass.
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Around here, the kids usually are waiting around in the dark in the middle of winter anyway. When you've only got about 8 hours or so of daylight, you're either going to school/work in the dark, going home in the dark, or both.
I'm in the standard time all year round camp, but I'll happily take permanent DST over the idiotic time change twice a year.
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George is on a train traveling from to Cleveland, leaving Boston at 12:00 noon and traveling at 70mph. His friend Bill in Pittsburgh sends him an invite to a Zoom meeting that starts at 1:00 pm, according to Bill's clock.
A: What will the time be on George's clock when the meeting starts? What will his offset from UTC be at that point?
B: How many minutes into the train ride will this actually be.
C: (extra credit) How much do these answers change if we take Einstein's theories of special and general relativit
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D: George has a smartphone with GPS and enough computing power to do all the necessary calculations and pop up a properly timed reminder.
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He'll need the phone anyway to join the conference call, so I fail to see the problem.
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Do you know that in "true solar time", the length of a day is not constant but drift at most half a minute from mean solar day throughout the year?
Well, installing an app that reports true solar time in your phone can be fun, but only for fun.
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We stop changing the clocks twice a year. We avoid all the confusion, health issues, etc that happen every time the clock changes. And winter afternoons stop being so miserably dark and depressing.
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"And winter afternoons stop being so miserably dark and depressing."
I'll take that any day over winter mornings where the sun won't rise until 9am thanks.
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Its larks vs night owls. Those of us who arn't bone idle and can get our backsides out of bed before 7am don't want to spend the next couple of hours in darkness in winter. Vs the dossers who roll out of bed at 10am and then expect the daylight to match their screwed up body clocks.
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As an essential worker that starts at 5am every day, the time I start doesn't really matter. We don't depend on the clock jumping forward, that just makes it feel like I now have to get up even earlier in the dark.
Want daylight after work? Go to work earlier. Your job doesn't allow it? Find a different job or start your own business (ya'll are Gods are on here, right?).
Time change is a solution in search of a problem.