Call Center-Pranking 'Scambaiters' Amass Millions of Fans on Social Media (theguardian.com) 85
The Guardian reports on "a new breed of scambaiters...taking over TikTok and YouTube."
And one of them has more than 1.5 million followers across both video platforms. "Three to four days a week, for one or two hours at a time, Rosie Okumura, 35, telephones thieves and messes with their minds," reports the Guardian: For the past two years, the LA-based voice actor has run a sort of reverse call centre, deliberately ringing the people most of us hang up on — scammers who pose as tax agencies or tech-support companies or inform you that you've recently been in a car accident you somehow don't recall. When Okumura gets a scammer on the line, she will pretend to be an old lady, or a six-year-old girl, or do an uncanny impression of Apple's virtual assistant Siri. Once, she successfully fooled a fake customer service representative into believing that she was Britney Spears. "I waste their time," she explains, "and now they're not stealing from someone's grandma...."
Batman became Batman to avenge the death of his parents; Okumura became a scambaiter after her mum was scammed out of $500... Thankfully, the bank was able to stop the money leaving her mother's account, but Okumura wanted more than just a refund. She asked her mum to give her the number she'd called and called it herself, spending an hour and 45 minutes wasting the scammer's time. "My computer's giving me the worst vibes," she began in Kim Kardashian's voice. "Are you in front of your computer right now?" asked the scammer. "Yeah, well it's in front of me, is that... that's like the same thing?" Okumura put the video on YouTube and since then has made over 200 more videos, through which she earns regular advertising revenue (she also takes sponsorships directly from companies).
"A lot of it is entertainment — it's funny, it's fun to do, it makes people happy," she says when asked why she scambaits. "But I also get a few emails a day saying, 'Oh, thank you so much, if it weren't for that video, I would've lost $1,500.'" Okumura isn't naive — she knows she can't stop people scamming, but she hopes to stop people falling for scams. "I think just educating people and preventing it from happening in the first place is easier than trying to get all the scammers put in jail...."
The Guardian also describes Jim Browning, a Northern Irish YouTuber with nearly 3.5 million subscribers who's been posting scambaiting videos for seven years. "Browning regularly gets access to scammers' computers and has even managed to hack into the closed-circuit TV footage of call centres in order to identify individuals. He then passes this information to the 'relevant authorities' including the police, money-processing firms and internet service providers...."
And they also tell the story of an American software engineer who joined with friends to convince a scammer he'd been offered a high-paying job — only to end up stranded in Laos after paying for a 600-miles flight.
"He was crying... that was the one where I was like, 'Ah, maybe I'm taking things a little too far.'"
And one of them has more than 1.5 million followers across both video platforms. "Three to four days a week, for one or two hours at a time, Rosie Okumura, 35, telephones thieves and messes with their minds," reports the Guardian: For the past two years, the LA-based voice actor has run a sort of reverse call centre, deliberately ringing the people most of us hang up on — scammers who pose as tax agencies or tech-support companies or inform you that you've recently been in a car accident you somehow don't recall. When Okumura gets a scammer on the line, she will pretend to be an old lady, or a six-year-old girl, or do an uncanny impression of Apple's virtual assistant Siri. Once, she successfully fooled a fake customer service representative into believing that she was Britney Spears. "I waste their time," she explains, "and now they're not stealing from someone's grandma...."
Batman became Batman to avenge the death of his parents; Okumura became a scambaiter after her mum was scammed out of $500... Thankfully, the bank was able to stop the money leaving her mother's account, but Okumura wanted more than just a refund. She asked her mum to give her the number she'd called and called it herself, spending an hour and 45 minutes wasting the scammer's time. "My computer's giving me the worst vibes," she began in Kim Kardashian's voice. "Are you in front of your computer right now?" asked the scammer. "Yeah, well it's in front of me, is that... that's like the same thing?" Okumura put the video on YouTube and since then has made over 200 more videos, through which she earns regular advertising revenue (she also takes sponsorships directly from companies).
"A lot of it is entertainment — it's funny, it's fun to do, it makes people happy," she says when asked why she scambaits. "But I also get a few emails a day saying, 'Oh, thank you so much, if it weren't for that video, I would've lost $1,500.'" Okumura isn't naive — she knows she can't stop people scamming, but she hopes to stop people falling for scams. "I think just educating people and preventing it from happening in the first place is easier than trying to get all the scammers put in jail...."
The Guardian also describes Jim Browning, a Northern Irish YouTuber with nearly 3.5 million subscribers who's been posting scambaiting videos for seven years. "Browning regularly gets access to scammers' computers and has even managed to hack into the closed-circuit TV footage of call centres in order to identify individuals. He then passes this information to the 'relevant authorities' including the police, money-processing firms and internet service providers...."
And they also tell the story of an American software engineer who joined with friends to convince a scammer he'd been offered a high-paying job — only to end up stranded in Laos after paying for a 600-miles flight.
"He was crying... that was the one where I was like, 'Ah, maybe I'm taking things a little too far.'"
It's a real shame (Score:5, Insightful)
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It's a real shame that so many Indian scammers have ruined the reputation of India. A lot of people ... don't think of the great space program, the improvements in infrastructure, etc.
There is an expression for that. [google.com]
Re:It's a real shame (Score:4, Insightful)
Trump cared for the workers much more.
ROFL
That's not to say Biden is perfect.
Have a look in the mirror and see the kook!
Re: It's a real shame (Score:2)
All I can see are the low unemployment rates (for minorities in particular) pre-Covid.
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I'm going to post a little factoid which may shock you to your core: Private enterprise supported by our capitalist system supplies many more jobs than government subsidies.
Re:It's a real shame (Score:4, Insightful)
Trump cared for the workers much more.
lol
Biden got in and started doing the bidding of the liberal billionaires right away.
When Trump got in he started doing the bidding of the conservative billionaires right away. He gave a notional tax break to the poor which lasted for exactly one tax cycle, and he gave massive tax breaks to the rich which are still with us — and which caused the latest leap in the national debt, and the need to raise the debt ceiling, which the republicans are opposing even though that's republican debt.
If you don't understand these very simple things then no one should give two fucks what you think on any issue because you are clearly too dumb to be worth listening to.
This explains why you posted as AC. You know what you posted was dogshit.
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There should be a law that Congress has to pass a budget every year.
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The US takes in almost $4T a year, so insufficient taxes are hardly the issue. It's runaway congressional spending that is the real problem.
The EU takes in 6.23 trillion Euros (7.24 trillion USD) for 447.7 million people, or $16,171 per person. The U.S. takes in $12,139 per person. Congressional spending isn't the problem. Inadequate tax revenue is.
There should be a law that Congress has to pass a budget every year.
There is a law [wikipedia.org] that Congress has to pass a budget every year. Are you serious?
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He slipped two things in with very little reaction from the media. He did it early on, in the first 100 days. Part of a long speech of his. He took out inheritance tax and he took out the alternative minimum tax. Barely got a reaction, but there it was. Craven.
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Biden made money printer go brrrr, which caused inflation, and inflation via money printing is a regressive tax on everyone, which affects the poor and middle class more than the wealthy. It's like putting extra taxes on food and fuel. The wealthy are barely inconvenienced, while the poor are crushed.
I would argue that it isn't regressive except to the extent that all taxes are inherently regressive because the wealthy can pay them without noticing. Inflation via money printing increase the amount that the wealthy must pay for stocks, not just for normal purchases, so it's not like a sales tax that affects most of what poor people spend money on while affecting very little of what rich people spend money on.
And arguably, it affects the value of saved income as well (ignoring international stocks), so i
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Biden made money printer go brrrr, which caused inflation, and inflation via money printing is a regressive tax on everyone, which affects the poor and middle class more than the wealthy. It's like putting extra taxes on food and fuel. The wealthy are barely inconvenienced, while the poor are crushed.
Jerome Powell, who was hand picked by Trump to be the chair of the Federal Reserve, made the money printer go "brrrr" in 2020.
Who was President in 2020? Trump.
Why did the money printer go "brrrr" in 2020? Because Trump screwed up and didn't take Covid-19 seriously, telling everyone "We have it totally under control. It’s one person coming in from China. We have it under control. It’s going to be just fine.” and tweeting "“The Coronavirus is very much under control in the USA. We are
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It's even worse for Indian immigrants that work at the tax office or police department. If they need to call people about something, everything thinks they're being scammed.
The only good thing is well, the government still does things the old way so if they can't call you to raise an issue, they will always send a letter in the mail. Basically there are very few things that have deadlines of basically "immediately". Anything important like taxes, courts, etc., generally have deadlines measured in months. Mi
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Millenials and and GenZ do not answer their phones anyway.
I never answer the phone. It goes straight to voicemail, which I never, ever check. I read the voice to text if it exists and get the gist from there.
The government is going to have to figure out another way to communicate urgent matters.
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I just turned off my voicemail entirely. I'm Gen X.
Letters are okay, email is preferred. Or at least it is in the UK. When I was living in Ireland I used to answer the phone and leave my voicemail on because the people calling me were actually helpful. I put in a for a refund from the tax office, and the tax man called me up to apologise for overcharging me, send me the right form and give me his details to send it back to him personally. My mind was blown.
Re: It's a real shame (Score:2)
the tax man called me up to apologise for overcharging me, send me the right form and give me his details to send it back to him personally.
In Nigeria?
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Re:It's a real shame (Score:5, Insightful)
India's reputation went into the toilet the minute western companies started outsourcing customer service there. That's why the "Scams" work so well. Users think they're talking to outsourced idiots and let their guard down.
If India want's to turn this around, they should either
a) close down all call centers that don't service the domestic India market.
b) require that companies that have call centers in India also be serving the domestic market.
That will keep fraud at a much lower level as there is a place held responsible.
The same goes for The Philippines, which is another place that Western companies outsource customer service to.
And before I repeat again why outsourcing your core services is a stupid and foolish idea, it takes an Indian or Filipino call center work 10 seconds to write down your account verification information, and as soon as you have up with them, they call their buddy somewhere else in the call center posing as you and wreck havoc on the account. If the call center only serviced domestic individuals, there is actual criminal activity they can be held accountable for. But as it exists now, crimes done in a call center in a foreign country are just ignored, as nobody but the call center owner can take ownership of it, and a call center will just shut down and reopen under another name and repeat.
And before you think it's purely Indians doing this, no, any country with a significant english-speaking population can, and has, done this, including Americans to other Americans. Scam-baiting has been a tactic used for now decades to take the law into peoples own hands and disrupt criminal networks by being a nuisance, and knowing that the actual law enforcement in those countries aren't going to help them.
I can't help but feel bad for the few people who were not aware they were engaging in crimes and just wanted out, but overall these people can rot in jail.
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They are also a nuclear power that is just as interested in countering China as the US is.
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Maybe that's a route that may result in the Indian authorities finally doing something about this - if their legitimate businesses take a hit because of th
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What's old is new again (Score:2)
Reminds me of when I was at school - every few years there'd be a new yo-yo fad, followed by a repeat of the marble fad, then a rehash of cat's cradles for the millionth time, then back to the start as the new kids worked their way up through the grades. Tiktok is today's YouTube, which was that day's rehash of flash memes.
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Indeed, it's not new - but now it's on Youtube (I'm rather surprised it's not news because it's on TikTok - youtube is a bit passe these days)
My personal favourite was to try and "sell" the caller Firefox. "Well, most people use Internet Explorer, but Firefox is faster, more secure and it's free too - would you like me to talk you through downloading it? Perhaps there's someone else in your team who'd like to hear about it instead?". It used to cause enough confusion that it seemed worth it, and hey, if it
As if law enforcement is more credible? (Score:5, Insightful)
YouTube isnâ(TM)t alone in expressing reservations about scambaiting. Jack Whittaker is a PhD candidate in criminology at the University of Surrey who recently wrote a paper on scambaiting. He explains that many scambaiters are looking for community, others are disgruntled at police inaction, while some are simply bored. He is troubled by the âoehumiliation tacticsâ employed by some scambaiters, as well as the underlying âoeeye for an eyeâ mentality. âoeIâ(TM)m someone who quite firmly believes that we should live in a system where thereâ(TM)s a rule of law,â Whittaker says. For scambaiting to have credibility, he believes baiters must move past unethical and illegal actions, such as hacking into a scammerâ(TM)s computer and deleting all their files (one YouTube video entitled âoeScammer Rages When I Delete His Files!â has more than 14m views).
Sorry, but that's a myopic and naive point of view. People take matters into their own hands because of a lack of accountability or justice. If the "rule of law" were actually followed through, countless victims would recover what they lost, and the perpetrators would be in jail. If you want people to stop baiting scammers, then do your fucking job and shut down the scammers. If these scambaiters can find the thieves this easily but "official channels" somehow can't, that means they lack either the ability or will, and any sense of credibility to be lecturing others on the rule of law.
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Ethically, if laws are absent, or do not cover a situation then people are entitled to fight for themselves or to make law. That is how laws originated in the first place in the ancient world.
In this case, there is no law against Indians scamming people in other nations - it is not illegal in India*, which is why the Indian police do nothing about it. The Indian police did put on a show when the BBC Panorama show covered Jim Browning's exposure of a call centre, but the thousands of other
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But I don't think it is clear cut. You could probably nail them on technicalities, but the complaint must be made in India (so the victim would need to travel there) and there would be legal arguments about where the crime was committed (if, legally, there even was one). It is very difficult to prove thet the victim did not really have a "virus" removed (as many
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People take matters into their own hands because of a lack of accountability or justice. If the "rule of law" were actually followed through, countless victims would recover what they lost, and the perpetrators would be in jail. If you want people to stop baiting scammers, then do your fucking job and shut down the scammers. If these scambaiters can find the thieves this easily but "official channels" somehow can't, that means they lack either the ability or will, and any sense of credibility to be lecturing others on the rule of law.
Exactly.
Of course that goes for lots of things - e.g. immigration. If the respectable politicians won't enforce immigration laws or deal with out of control immigration, then the public will turn to un-respectable politicians, or to vigilantism.
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Exactly this. Vigilantism always arises to fill a vacuum. If the call centers were local to the people being scammed, there would be baseball bats and torches involved. There's a reason why problem houses in ignored neighborhoods are so fire prone.
If law enforcement doesn't want that, the answer is to enforce the law.
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There's a quote by C. S. Lewis that I read years ago, something to the effect that if the government fails to provide protection to the law-abiding from various sorts of two-legged predators, sooner or later, the law-abiding are going to be forced to avail themselves of something more primitive than the King's Justice.
"News"... (Score:2, Interesting)
LITERALLY my grandma told me about this.
Almost a year ago.
Forsooth, hot newse thou bringeth forth, Sire Doth of Slashe!
In the worst of times (Score:5, Funny)
Heros emerge and attack the evils that surround us.
If only there were some people with access to hellfire missiles from drones that could help out these people on their holy mission.
Automate scam baiting with Lenny (Score:3, Interesting)
I ususally fail (Score:2)
But, when my time permits, I feel it's worth keeping them occupied and away from the more gullible.
When time does not permit I will ask them if their mother is proud to have born and raised a criminal, this will typically end in them hanging up
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>I keep them occupied
>I waste their time
https://i.imgur.com/Ye6eDRj.jp... [imgur.com]
Riiiight.
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I used to get a few dozen of these calls a week. Some times I would just lead them on till it came time to actually pony up. Then just hang up.
Then I created some personas and wrote some scripts that I kept nearby. Gary the Gay Geriatric Gigolo, Mel, who runs the bull seaman collection center looking to hire someone. (Son, how would you like some honest work? Have you ever jacked off a bull?) . Then there is Uncle Phil who just needs a few member to join his cult. I even answered a few times "suici
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I would be more inclined to believe that it's something more legislative than my, admittedly, juvenile banter with these crooks. But still if I can keep one of these fools tied up for a few minutes it cuts in to their profit margin. The more expensive we can make it for them the better.
If the authorities did more... (Score:2)
If the authorities in countries like India did more to go after scammers and throw them in jail, it would create a big disincentive to continue running these scams (I don't know what Indian jails are like but I can't imagine they are somewhere that would be all that nice to spend time in)
If a random guy from half-way around the world with a few computer skills (and no ability to do things like compel providers to hand over logs and information or to go and raid facilities and seize hardware) can infiltrate
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If the authorities in countries like India did more to go after scammers and throw them in jail, it would create a big disincentive
In India itself there is no clear law against Indians scamming people in other nations which is why the Indian police do nothing about it. It is very difficult to make a case against these scammers. The Indian government need to amend Indian law to cover this, and Western governments need to pressurise them to do so.
Not Quite (Score:2)
To take this a step further, if it was Americans scamming the rest of the world, I'm pretty sure the US government would do very little about it, other than perhaps pass a CANSPAM type law which provides a way for the scamming to continue, so long as the scammers do so whilst wearing long trousers.
As an example of how US enforces laws in other countries - as a US citizen, it is illegal to bribe an official in another country, even if it's *legal to do so* in that country. The US government will prosecute you for it. A bunch of HP and Walmart execs got hit with jail time, as well as a sitting US congressman.
So, I don't think committing international wire fraud would go down to well, either.
Re: Not Quite (Score:2)
It's called the FCPA [wikipedia.org]. And it's purpose is to direct all political contributions into the pockets of US politicians. Where such contributions are protected as "speech".
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From my understanding there is also a Robinhood sort of vibe going on here. People living in poverty stricken countries don't see that it is all that bad that people in far wealthier nations are being defrauded. After all the rich people live in a land of milk and honey where you can't help but amass mounds of wealth.
Why do it by hand? (Score:3)
Lenny [youtube.com] does a very good job on its own.
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I admit it, I have watched these (Score:2)
But I know I shouldn't. Well, not the ones being made rather obviously for profit, anyway.
How easy would it be to set up a fake scammer op and put on a show for the ad revenue? I have no idea, but on the Internet, no one knows you're a dog.
New? (Score:2)
Guardian just discovers what many of us have been following for years.
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Guardian just discovers what many of us have been following for years.
Kitboga.
So there IS a use for those Tiktok "celebrities"? (Score:2)
If they can keep the scammers busy, at least they're not a total waste of precious oxygen.
Where the Scammers get their Training (Score:3, Interesting)
I won't deal with call operators with Indian accents - or rather I play them along and/or give them hell. I kept one going for 40 minutes once - I got them logged into a honeypot VM on my PC where all they found was porn*. I changed from a phone company and an ISP which had Indian call centres. Even if I realise a caller is legitinate (I had one from my local hospital recently) I grill them hard to prove their legitimacy.
Indian caller from hosptital:
I first need to ask some questions to confirm who you are.
Me
You got that wrong. You called me and might be a scammer, so I first need to ask some questions to confirm who you are.
If everyone refused to deal with Indian call centres the billion dollar scamming business would collapse.
* White guy on Indian girl porn.
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That's lacist!
I LOVE it!
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I won't deal with call operators with Indian accents - or rather I play them along and/or give them hell. I kept one going for 40 minutes once - I got them logged into a honeypot VM on my PC where all they found was porn*. I changed from a phone company and an ISP which had Indian call centres. Even if I realise a caller is legitinate (I had one from my local hospital recently) I grill them hard to prove their legitimacy.
Indian caller from hosptital:
I first need to ask some questions to confirm who you are.
Me :
You got that wrong. You called me and might be a scammer, so I first need to ask some questions to confirm who you are.
If everyone refused to deal with Indian call centres the billion dollar scamming business would collapse.
* White guy on Indian girl porn.
Amazon.com's support is all outsourced to India, but yet they still try to suck at the public American tit every time they want to open a new location. Spineless politicians never seem to want to point that out....
Scambaiting isn't new (Score:2)
They named 4 people and not the original one. (Score:3)
Kitboga is the best known and first one, he's been doing this for like 4 or 5 years. He's had Jim Browning on his show. [twitch.tv]
Also the music created by fans from clips of the show. is fucking great.
I often leave his stream on while I'm at work. It's hilarious and he's essentially an improv comedy character actor. I don't like any improv but his.
Mac surprise (Score:5, Funny)
My wife kept a "your-windows-has-been-hacked" scammer on the line for over an hour one time. First she claimed her computer was super slow and took 15 min to turn on. Then it had to install some updates. Then it had to restart again. Eventually she told him everything was booted up. He instructed her to go to the start menu. She acted confused that she couldn't find the start menu, and eventually says "does it matter that my computer is made by Apple? Are my windows still ok?"
The scammer hung up.
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First she claimed her computer was super slow and took 15 min to turn on.
does it matter that my computer is made by Apple?
How many old-timers here remember that old copypasta? Probably the best part about it was that Macs really were that slow once... back in the '90s, with that Quadra and Centris crap.
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My best card is that I use an IBM Model M keyboard which has no Windows key. The scammers ask you to press the Windows key and "R" AFAIR in order to get a command line, and saying that I can't find it floors them. "Sorry, I've got a gap between the Ctrl and the Alt keys". So. I have to help them do a work-around. Get them off their script and they are helpless.
GOOD and this is why: (Score:2)
Anything that damages scammer operations, wastes their time and causes them additional stress is good because they are attempting to fleece innocent victims.
There can be no ethical issues with creatively attacking scammers because they are without worth. "Ethicists" are just people seeking agency they would not otherwise have if they could not con others into following their lead. They are not there to help fight the enemy and should be ignored.
Stranged in *Lagos* (Score:2)
TFA says that the scammer named Omar was stranged in Lagos, not Laos. But neither place is one where most people would like to be stranded.
I'll excuse the editors for this one in the off chance the error was in the original and has since been silently corrected.
Golden Rule. (Score:2)
And they also tell the story of an American software engineer who joined with friends to convince a scammer he'd been offered a high-paying job — only to end up stranded in Laos after paying for a 600-miles flight.
"He was crying... that was the one where I was like, 'Ah, maybe I'm taking things a little too far.'"
Golden Rule: Do unto others as you have them do unto you.
Haha (Score:2)
When I think of India, I think of obsequious tech support morons who don't know shit, but go on and on about how pleased they are to help me.
When i think of India, I think of all the dirt cheap generic drugs exported to the US that are not properly supervised, and which the FDA fails to check, as well as the Indian drug companies who have been banned from the US drug market for poor practices.
When I think of India, I think of all the incompetent programmers who have create garbage code for American companie
Crosses the line (Score:2)
For me, this crosses a line. Someone calls you? They're fair game. You go out of your way to call someone? Maybe you're the bad guy.
Blame Tech (Score:2)
Some of the cell carriers are starting to validate handoffs which is nice, but ANY time the technology changed, the common carriers could have put their foot down and required a handshake or no call goes through.
There is no bringing these people to justice as they can call for anywhere. If foreign (and virtual) phone carriers had real punitive actions to basically 'ban' (even in the laziest way poss
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It isn't that simple though. There are laws in place that state that phone carriers must accept calls from other carriers. It's in order to prevent Verizon from saying "Only other Verizon customers can call you unless they pay a fee." Or any other carrier for that matter. That law has prevented carriers from implementing filters to stop the calls that originate off of their own network, even if they're certain they are spam/scam calls. The FCC is finally putting steps in place to allow carriers to bloc
Kitboga (Score:2)
What? No mention of Kitboga and his 2.05M subscribers or even the classic 419eater.com/?
Like A Movie (Score:1)