School Custodian Refuses To Download Phone App That Monitors Location, Says It Got Her Fired (www.cbc.ca) 231
Michelle Dionne, a former employee at a cleaning company in Darwell, Alberta, says she was fired for refusing to download an app that would check her location and ensure she was working her scheduled hours. CBC.ca reports: Dionne says she was thrilled to get the job last fall -- responsible for things like disinfecting door handles, light switches and bathrooms to prevent possible spread of the coronavirus. When her boss told her to download the app, Dionne says she was concerned about her privacy. The app would go on her personal phone and, she says, her boss didn't clearly explain how it worked or what would happen to any data it collected.[...] The app, called Blip, generates a geofence -- a virtual boundary, created by the employer using GPS -- that detects when an employee enters or leaves. The app registers a signal from the worker's cell phone, when their "locations" setting is turned on, so the boss can tell whether an employee is on site and how many hours that person works. It only registers an employee's location when they enter and exit the geofence and doesn't track their specific movements. It's not clear where that data is stored, or whether any other employee information might be included.
Go Public reached out to the maker of the app, U.K.-based BrightHR. Spokesperson Natalie Shallow said, although the app collects data, that data "belongs to the customer organization" -- meaning, the company using the app -- and therefore is subject to the company's own policies. The data's protection "complies with all applicable laws, including Alberta's Personal Information Protection Act," Shallow said. Dionne worried about where the information might end up. She knew apps like Instagram, Facebook and others had been breached. She says no one told her how securely the information would be protected.
Dionne's former boss admits she didn't know where the data generated by Blip would be stored when she introduced the app to her workforce last fall. "I never asked that question and it never came up in my mind to ask," said Hanan Yehia, founder and owner of H.Y. Cleaning Services, which operates cleaning services for eight locations in northern Alberta. She says after Dionne raised concerns, she went back to BrightHR for more information and was told employees' movements within the geofence are not specifically monitored. Yehia says she shared that information with Dionne. The app was a solution to a problem, says Yehia -- she was looking for a way to simplify payroll by easily tracking hours and making sure employees who claimed they were working were actually on the job. "We had some issues in some locations where they would say they were on site, that they were working, but they weren't," she said, clarifying that attendance was not an issue with Dionne. She also says Dionne's refusal to download the app wasn't the sole reason she was fired.
Go Public reached out to the maker of the app, U.K.-based BrightHR. Spokesperson Natalie Shallow said, although the app collects data, that data "belongs to the customer organization" -- meaning, the company using the app -- and therefore is subject to the company's own policies. The data's protection "complies with all applicable laws, including Alberta's Personal Information Protection Act," Shallow said. Dionne worried about where the information might end up. She knew apps like Instagram, Facebook and others had been breached. She says no one told her how securely the information would be protected.
Dionne's former boss admits she didn't know where the data generated by Blip would be stored when she introduced the app to her workforce last fall. "I never asked that question and it never came up in my mind to ask," said Hanan Yehia, founder and owner of H.Y. Cleaning Services, which operates cleaning services for eight locations in northern Alberta. She says after Dionne raised concerns, she went back to BrightHR for more information and was told employees' movements within the geofence are not specifically monitored. Yehia says she shared that information with Dionne. The app was a solution to a problem, says Yehia -- she was looking for a way to simplify payroll by easily tracking hours and making sure employees who claimed they were working were actually on the job. "We had some issues in some locations where they would say they were on site, that they were working, but they weren't," she said, clarifying that attendance was not an issue with Dionne. She also says Dionne's refusal to download the app wasn't the sole reason she was fired.
do they pay for an data plan / phone plan + at lea (Score:5, Insightful)
do they pay for an data plan / phone plan + at least an basic phone if they want some to use an on line app the pushers data all the time?
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Re:do they pay for an data plan / phone plan + at (Score:5, Insightful)
I have refused to install work e-mail and other attention-grabbing stuff on my personal phone. I want to keep work separated from personal items.
Re:do they pay for an data plan / phone plan + at (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:do they pay for an data plan / phone plan + at (Score:5, Insightful)
You don't see people refusing to scan a badge to enter their building because their employer will know if they are or aren't at work, despite it communicating that exact information and more.
That's because the badge is company property and is a completely different situation. This is about being forced to install some random app on your phone that is designed to spy on you. I think anyone that isn't concerned in that situation is foolish.
If they provided a work devices or maybe a gps tracking badge for work, then fine.
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Re:do they pay for an data plan / phone plan + at (Score:5, Insightful)
an easily replacable, bottom of the pile, minimum wage cleaner
Yeah, fuck those people! They don't deserve any of the privacy or protections that us higher-earning types get!
(...that is what you meant, yeah?)
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They'd likely be on the school wifi if they're at the school. No need to use wireless data.
LOL. Given they are the employees of a contractor, they surely do not fit the criterion to be given access to the school wifi, which is probably turned off at night "to save money"...
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They'd likely be on the school wifi if they're at the school. No need to use wireless data.
LOL. Given they are the employees of a contractor, they surely do not fit the criterion to be given access to the school wifi, which is probably turned off at night "to save money"...
And hopefully blocks access to malware sites, like this tracking company.
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No, they don't. Nor are they legally required to.
It is not illegal for an employer to require you to have a cell phone as a condition of employment. Nor is it illegal for them to require you to install an app.
I'd still consider it a dick move. They can provide me with work phone if they want to require me to have one and/or a specific app on it.
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but they can't force you to pay the cost of either without prior agreement/compensation
Well first, no one can force you to do anything. Second, the phone thing is treated like the car thing, if your lack of one prevents you from meeting whatever bar is required for your continued employment, that's on you. Third, compensation isn't mandatory, which if your employer isn't compensating you can file that on your taxes according to the rules there.
ShanghaiTroll
You know if anyone thinks the current rules are unfair, write your local law makers about the issue.
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So you wouldn't have a problem with your employer demanding you install a GPS tracking device on your car?
No Smartphone (Score:3)
She should have told him that she doesn't have a smartphone.
Re:No Smartphone (Score:5, Insightful)
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If they want her running spyware they can provide the phone and data plan.
I love that idea, unfortunately none of the laws currently on the books support that view. What they wanted to do is the equivalent of you driving to work. No one argues that your car is your property, no one argues that your phone is your property. However, when your car is on your employers property they've got every right to search it, tell you to move it, and so on. Likewise is the current argument that courts in several states have come to the conclusion. Once your phone is on your employers prope
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The Fascist States of America by the sound of it.
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So the app would disappear as soon as her shift ended? Or were they insisting on "borrowing" it 24/7?
Would you loan your car to your employer? How about if they didn't have any sort of insurance and couldn't or wouldn't say exactly what they will do with it?
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Your individual insurance isn't going to cover commercial use (at least not in the U.S.).
Re:No Smartphone (Score:5, Insightful)
Once your phone is on your employers property, they have every right to tell you to start running their spyware.
How do you figure ? Just because you are on company property does not give them any right to make alterations to your personal possessions. Just imagine telling female employees that they must add a transparent window to their purses so people can see what is inside for security purposes. We're not even talking about using a company-issued purse but demanding that they must make this alteration to their existing purse that they bought themselves outside of work for non-work purposes.
I suppose the employer could try and make it a contractual agreement and you are free to not bring your purse to work or not work there at all ... but on what planet do they have the *right* (your word) to demand that you (tell you to) alter your personal property?
The most they can do is make it part of the contract that part of your job duties require you to use "a" mobile device that has said software installed on it and that the employee is responsible for procuring and configuring this device at their own expense. The closest analog I can think of is when employees need to purchase their own uniforms. I wouldn't accept such an employment offer but I would agree the employer has the right to try and find people who would voluntarily agree to such a ridiculous clause.
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unfortunately none of the laws currently on the books support that view
While this is true, it is also true that there is no law currently on the books that requires one to provide personal property in service of employment without prior agreement. If at the time the employment contract was offered and accepted there was no requirement for the provision of personal cell phone services to be used by the employer, then that cannot be made a condition of the contract by unilateral amendment. It may only be added as a condition of the contract by agreement between the parties to
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If they want her running spyware they can provide the phone and data plan.
I love that idea, unfortunately none of the laws currently on the books support that view. What they wanted to do is the equivalent of you driving to work. No one argues that your car is your property, no one argues that your phone is your property. However, when your car is on your employers property they've got every right to search it, tell you to move it, and so on. Likewise is the current argument that courts in several states have come to the conclusion. Once your phone is on your employers property, they have every right to tell you to start running their spyware.
I know a lot of people do not like that and by all means, everyone is free to go speak to their local lawmakers about the situation. As it stands, your employer can tell you to turn on the spyware, you can tell them you won't, and they can tell you that you are fired. And that's about the skinny of it as it stands.
What "laws currently on the books" support an employer's right to require installation of a tracking app on an employee's phone?
And no, this isn't like having to drive to work. It would be like requiring an employee to put advertising on their car when they drive to work.
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Put down the crack pipe. They have no right to search your car. You must work for some shitty company that has somehow convinced you they are allowed to do that.
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She should have told him that she doesn't have a smartphone.
In which case they should've provided one to run that app, since it's apparently a "requirement of employment" (she got fired for not running that app on her personal device).
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Of course, if a "spy device" was provided by the employer, there is no requirement for the employee to carry the thing about when not being paid to do so. Unless the contract was extremely carefully worded either (a) the employer would have to pay the employee 24x7x365 or (b) the employee should just leave the employers' device in on the employers' premises.
Personally, I would be happy to carry around the employers "spy device" for no charge while working on the employers premise. However, "transportation
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When you're "happy to get a shitty cleaning job", you're not going to be in a position to make any such demands.
Re:No Smartphone (Score:5, Insightful)
She should have told him that she doesn't have a smartphone.
And would you have stayed at the job, if they handed you a company provided phone?
The phone, isn't really the main issue here. Free citizens accepting and allowing this corporate spyware bullshit to infect many other jobs, is. And the sad part we're not reading about, are the eight locations full of cleaning service employees who installed said spyware without hesitation or question.
Talk about fighting a losing battle.
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And would you have stayed at the job, if they handed you a company provided phone?
The phone, isn't really the main issue here. Free citizens accepting and allowing this corporate spyware bullshit to infect many other jobs, is.
I don't really see this as 'spyware' in the sense that the employer wanted to verify that employees were, in fact, doing their job at the location/times they were supposed to (a sort of 'digital punch clock') - they simply went about it really badly (they impelented this because they had problems with other employees) - it shouldn't have been a requirement to run it on her own device (she got fired for refusing to install it), and they could've instead provided other means to monitor her during her work hou
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Sure! I'd have kept the phone in my on-site employee locker for safe keeping.
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Or "I tried to install it, but it wouldn't work on my Nokia 6210."
Employer should provide the smartphone (Score:3, Interesting)
If it's a requirement for the job (or else you get fired because this), then it's up to the employer to provide the smartphone (or really, ankle bracelet apparently) to run the app on.
It shouldn't fall on the employee to foot the cost of the device (and the employer certainly shouldn't assume they already own one) and/or any data usage for such an app, especially if this requirement wasn't communicated prior to being hired.
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she could just leave the phone within the required boundaries while out having her 3 hour, 2 martini lunch.
I don't know anything about the app itself, but I would presume that it likely detects/verifies movements within that geofence, or else anything that makes sure the device doesn't stay completely stationary during the verified time period.
Re:Employer should provide the smartphone (Score:5, Funny)
she could just leave the phone within the required boundaries while out having her 3 hour, 2 martini lunch.
I don't know anything about the app itself, but I would presume that it likely detects/verifies movements within that geofence, or else anything that makes sure the device doesn't stay completely stationary during the verified time period.
Then rotate which co-worker carries all the phones around while everyone else takes a 3 hour lunch.
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2 sided tape, and a roomba.
Problem. Solved.
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This is a school. You're not getting your phone or roomba back.
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she could just leave the phone within the required boundaries while out having her 3 hour, 2 martini lunch.
I don't know anything about the app itself, but I would presume that it likely detects/verifies movements within that geofence, or else anything that makes sure the device doesn't stay completely stationary during the verified time period.
That's what model trains are for. Put your phone on it. Let it run in circles. Movement detection satisfied.
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If it's a requirement for the job (or else you get fired because this), then it's up to the employer to provide the smartphone (or really, ankle bracelet apparently) to run the app on.
It shouldn't fall on the employee to foot the cost of the device (and the employer certainly shouldn't assume they already own one) and/or any data usage for such an app, especially if this requirement wasn't communicated prior to being hired.
The issue isn't the cost, it's the tracking.
The app maker claims "employees' movements within the geofence are not specifically monitored" but how is that enforced? Employees only have the app maker's word to go on. And realistically, the app maker has a lot of incentives to keep a much more extensive record of the employee movements so I wouldn't trust that more detailed information isn't stored in their database.
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The app maker claims "employees' movements within the geofence are not specifically monitored" but how is that enforced?
That sounds like a shitty app then, and an equally shitty choice/decision by the employer to use it. A punch clock at the location(s) seems like a better solution.
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The app maker claims "employees' movements within the geofence are not specifically monitored" but how is that enforced?
That sounds like a shitty app then, and an equally shitty choice/decision by the employer to use it. A punch clock at the location(s) seems like a better solution.
Ok, you design the app. How do you assure the user that you're not collecting anything other than whether or not they're in the geofence?
If your app is secure as it should be then it's encrypting communications, and if it's encrypting communications then no one can verify that you send nothing but whether the user is in or out of the geofence.
I don't think the app designer or the employer is up to anything particularly sketchy, but what they can do is unfortunately limited.
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The mistake here was not clarifying all aspects of the job. The employee had a right to not accept the employment given what might have been onerous work conditions, but the employer, given that any person o
They should supply the phone (Score:2)
If a company requires an employee to run an app as part of their job, they should supply the phone to run it on. Then the employee can turn it on when they get to work and turn it off when they leave.
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Re:They should supply the phone (Score:4)
Then what's the point? They should have used an old punch-clock or similar time-keeping system.
Gee, if only there were some easy way to tell if a cleaning crew, did their cleaning job, and cleaned.
I guess we'll just have to wait for Captain Obvious to be re-born again to verify, along with Common F. Sense and Jesus H. Christ.
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Gee, can they give employees a count down timer too, so they can see how many more seconds they remain stationary before it's brought to someone's attention?
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Then the employee can turn it on when they get to work and turn it off when they leave.
Leave the company phone in my locker at work. I must be on the job 7x24.
I can't believe I'm the first... (Score:2)
But really, if her employer wanted her to run an app on a smartphone, her employer should have provided the phone and data plan!
Man, Slashdot, why does it take so long for people to speak up about these common sense ideas?
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But really, if her employer wanted her to run an app on a smartphone, her employer should have provided the phone and data plan!
Man, Slashdot, why does it take so long for people to speak up about these common sense ideas?
Employer provides the phone. Problem solved? Hmm..I wonder how a somewhat pessimistic outlook, might play out.
* 45 seconds from now *
(CNN Breaking News)"In a rather shocking announcement, every major cellular carrier in America is now offering every major corporation in America, a completely free and unlimited cellular plan for every employee, including the latest hardware."
* 12 hours later *
(Corporate HR)"Your brand new corporate smartphone will be issued to you soon, along with a revised copy of the Emp
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her employer should have provided the phone and data plan!
It's in Canada, home of the most expensive data plans in the known universe...
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her employer should have provided the phone and data plan!
It's in Canada, home of the most expensive data plans in the known universe...
Probably all the more reason they want to saddle the employee with the cost of monitoring themselves.
I was fired because of a faulty location tracker (Score:5, Interesting)
The one time in my adult life I have been fired was because of a phone that tracked my location. I had to clock in and out from worksites. One day, my boss asked me if I visited a client the day before. I said I had. She said my clock in showed I was at home. And it did! I asked them to send me the exact location from my clock in, and it was precisely from my home. But I had actually clocked in from a client site an hour away.
The truth is, this is probably not what I was fired for. After my boss informed me, I went to HR and asked for an investigation. I wanted them to contact the client to confirm my location, and I wanted them to investigate how this could have happened. I just could not imagine how the location data could be so incriminatingly wrong. Someone from HR said they would investigate, and then they fired me the next day.
The real lessons from this experience: never trust phone tracking software, and never ever go to HR.
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First lesson: if a boss wants to fire you, they will find a reason.
Second lesson: This boss did you a favor. Any job that will fire you because of a single electronically-
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The real lesson is that your employer was looking for an easy way to fire you. Best bet is to reflect on what would have prompted them to do that, e.g., high pay prompting the hire of a new, cheaper replacement employee; personality conflict; other perceived (right or wrong) problem?
Re: I was fired because of a faulty location track (Score:2)
Re:I was fired because of a faulty location tracke (Score:5, Insightful)
The real problem is Americas 'At Will' employment culture.
In more civilised countries, there is due process to follow, or the employer could be in big trouble.
best quote (Score:3)
"We're not thieves. We don't need an ankle monitor.", she told Go Public.
Or.... (Score:3)
Or they could, you know, treat their employees like adults, and assume that they are actually doing their job... Like they did before ankle bracelets^W^W tracking apps became available.
Re:Or.... (Score:4, Informative)
I know reading the article is overrated, but it states even in the summary that they have problems with employees lying and saying they are on site working when they are not.
The solution is to spot check each employee handful of random times a year. Then go after the problems with criminal charges with wage theft. Folks tend to line if they know there is jail time behind forging work hours on a time card. But then supervisors would actually have to get off their butts and actually go into the field and .... supervise.
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*walk the line
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All this does is raise the bar on who can still forge the timesheet.
I assume this is on Android, because Apple would have red tape a mile long on sideloading this shitshow.
So-- Get one of the several hundred location API spoofing apps, disable the GPS, then press the "build information" button in the settings menu a shitload of times to turn on developer mode, and turn on location api diagnostics/spoofing.
Now you can make it look like your phone is happily wandering around inside the place you are supposed
Solution won't work - easily defeated (Score:2)
This is a solution that won't work. Any slackers will just buy a cheap phone to run the app. Show up to work, put in an hour, leave the cheap phone on site, and go take a 4 hour lunch, come back, work a couple of hours, and then take the cheap phone home.
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You can't just leave the phone in one place. You have to attach it to the work truck or wheelbarrow of someone that will be on site.
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Nope, it's just a geofence showing either on the work site or outside of the work site. Not tracking movement within.
Daft (Score:2)
I find it ironic that it's a British company selling this app.
Employment law in the UK is extremely strict and any business asking it's employees in the UK would be on a one way trip to an Employment Tribunal expecting a big financial slap.
It was also a British company that was selling desk sensors that detected whether you were sitting at your desk. One newspaper installed them and very quickly had to rip them out again when it was pointed out how many laws they had just broken.
Next up... (Score:2)
Shock collars to go along with the "invisible fence".
Hello (Score:5, Insightful)
Please install this random app you've never heard of on your personal smart phone. It's written by the best offshore programmers who weren't good enough to get an H1B that money can buy. We know that because the low bidder we are paying for this says so and their salesman has a nice suit. We pinkie swear it won't hoover your contacts and banking info, mine bitcoin, track you after hours, or inject extra ads (Nice suit guy said so)!
Of course the administration won't be installing it on their phones, why would they?
WHY ? (Score:2)
Faraday pouch (Score:2)
It is your friend.
Re:If it is a condition of employment, she is wron (Score:5, Insightful)
Not necessarily.
The school isn't her employer, a private company that the school/district has hired is. That said, it may be possible that local laws do not allow an employer to mandate that an employee has a personal cell phone or to mandate any sort of disclosure of the number, or of anything to do with a personal cell phone.
Hopefully a local labor lawyer is well versed on that sort of law there. Their firing her for refusing to put their app on her phone seems like an easily challenged circumstance.
Either offer to provide her with a work-issue phone that she is to have on her person during work hours, providing a place at the jobsite to stow/charge the phone when she's off the clock, or offer a stipend to her to pay her for the use of her cell phone, but be prepared for her to decline the latter. Especially if she's hourly, they have no business keeping any sort of tabs on her when she's off the clock.
Re: If it is a condition of employment, she is wro (Score:2)
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School policy might still run afoul of labor laws though.
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Re:If it is a condition of employment, she is wron (Score:4, Informative)
If this is a condition of employment
If you read the article, it wasn't stated when they hired her, only after:
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If this is a condition of employment
If you read the article, it wasn't stated when they hired her, only after:
I'm certainly not saying this company did, but if a company were to deploy such a program properly and legally and with existing staff, the employee handbook and AUP would have probably been the first documents to get updated and agreed/re-agreed to, by every employee.
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I'm certainly not saying this company did, but if a company were to deploy such a program properly and legally and with existing staff, the employee handbook and AUP would have probably been the first documents to get updated and agreed/re-agreed to, by every employee.
Indeed. I'm not sure about Canadian laws, but I think this would be considered a change in the employment contract (something that would have required what you outlined).
Apples vs Kangaroos (Score:4, Interesting)
Comparing scanning a work-provided-badge into a workplace-scanner for entry, exit, and general locations is not remotely similar to installing an unknown/insecure-phone-app that could very well leak or breach personal information from the phone including banking, financial, non-work contacts, passwords, etc.
Does the badge-scanning also do payroll such that scanning-in starts the clock on hours paid & scanning-out stops the clock on hours paid?
I've done lots of badge scanning, but there were explicit laws that prevented those from being used for paid work hours.
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You're conjecturing that this software is an unknown/insure app.
As any thinking person should.
Re:Apples vs Kangaroos (Score:5, Informative)
This app, if breached, has access to a wealth of personal data on the device plus potential capability to capture ongoing as the phone is used - online banking details, your social media accounts, email accounts, text messaging, MFA hijacking. They could steal all your money if not your entire identity.
One of these is not in any way like the other.
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Google and Facebook can't fire you unless you work for them.
Re:Countless Of Us Have Long Done Similar (Score:5, Informative)
But when a badge is read by a scanner you know where the badge really is. There's a limited range that they work...
Whether it's my phone or Google, I've always been astounded by the number of times my location history shows me "being at" a neighborhood down the street from my house. We're talking 1/3 of a mile location error.
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This article says nothing more than it reports when she enters the geo zone and when she enters. No more. Anything else is simply conjecture.
You must be the biggest fool I've ever heard of. "Oh, the company says it's totally secure and fine. It must be!"
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Being forced to install spyware (that should appeal to most of the audience here) versus being a woman and being her fault for getting fired. Neck beards and autists: discuss.
Just when exactly no one is bringing up any type of sexist concern, you walk in with this stupidity.
GTFO with that bullshit.
Discussion over.
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I’m surprised for this job they actually track hours - not sure if each employee has only 1 location or more, but a good worker might take only 45 mins to do work that another person might take an hour or more to do.
I’d think they’d pay flat rate per location (doesn’t matter how long it takes, as long as it’s done properly
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I know someone that worked as a home caregiver for the elderly. She was provided with, not an app, but some kind of dedicated device to use to clock in. It did basically the same thing as this app: Log a time-stamp and a GPS coordinate. It's not meant to substitute for supervision, it's meant to substitute for a timeclock.
It's meant to raise the bar for stealing company time from "Forging a timesheet in 45 seconds" to "Going to the jobsite and staying there all night." In that second scenario, some percenta
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I'm kinda concerned about the faulty GPS locations when working inside a poured-concrete building, and any building below-grade. The GPS readings are faulty by design in that situation.
Anyone who would fire someone based on this faulty information had at least two other reasons they wanted that someone fired.
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It depends on the circumstances of the work being done. Where I live, basically nobody lives in poured concrete, and buildings don't extend below grade due to flooding. I've never seen GPS be more than a block off from my real location, and even that's rare. But even if a specific building glitched the GPS, it would glitch it for anyone that went there. They would notice that quickly.
And with the jobs I've seen/worked using this, placing you in the vicinity is good enough. Nobody's going to commute all the
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These people are stupid.
Why do you think it’s called "manglement"?
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Alberta isn't part of the UK, although I suppose at one time it was in the Commonwealth.
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You are correct. Where the fuck did I read UK?
Sorry, old and confused here.
I retract what I said.
Excuse me, gotta go wash this egg off my face.
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You are correct. Where the fuck did I read UK? Sorry, old and confused here. I retract what I said.
Excuse me, gotta go wash this egg off my face.
The app is made by a company in the UK. You probably looked at their site like I did.
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Bullshit.
This is the UK we're talking about. People who DON'T specifically think about how it can be abused are absolutely NUTS for this kind of privacy-invading crap. And any pushback is Not Allowed. And must be punished.
Can you think of a country where this software could have been made that you'd trust it?
Because I cannot.
Re: (Score:2)
Can you think of a country where this software could have been made that you'd trust it?
Trust? None, especially not any Five Eyes member state or ally of any of them.
Least Risk? Most formerly Soviet states.
Re: What if bad guys find the worker's app showing (Score:2)
"bUt wE aRe tRuStEd bEcAuSE wE hAvE tEh gOlD"- just ask anyone at Charter cable.