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School Custodian Refuses To Download Phone App That Monitors Location, Says It Got Her Fired (www.cbc.ca) 231

Michelle Dionne, a former employee at a cleaning company in Darwell, Alberta, says she was fired for refusing to download an app that would check her location and ensure she was working her scheduled hours. CBC.ca reports: Dionne says she was thrilled to get the job last fall -- responsible for things like disinfecting door handles, light switches and bathrooms to prevent possible spread of the coronavirus. When her boss told her to download the app, Dionne says she was concerned about her privacy. The app would go on her personal phone and, she says, her boss didn't clearly explain how it worked or what would happen to any data it collected.[...] The app, called Blip, generates a geofence -- a virtual boundary, created by the employer using GPS -- that detects when an employee enters or leaves. The app registers a signal from the worker's cell phone, when their "locations" setting is turned on, so the boss can tell whether an employee is on site and how many hours that person works. It only registers an employee's location when they enter and exit the geofence and doesn't track their specific movements. It's not clear where that data is stored, or whether any other employee information might be included.

Go Public reached out to the maker of the app, U.K.-based BrightHR. Spokesperson Natalie Shallow said, although the app collects data, that data "belongs to the customer organization" -- meaning, the company using the app -- and therefore is subject to the company's own policies. The data's protection "complies with all applicable laws, including Alberta's Personal Information Protection Act," Shallow said. Dionne worried about where the information might end up. She knew apps like Instagram, Facebook and others had been breached. She says no one told her how securely the information would be protected.

Dionne's former boss admits she didn't know where the data generated by Blip would be stored when she introduced the app to her workforce last fall. "I never asked that question and it never came up in my mind to ask," said Hanan Yehia, founder and owner of H.Y. Cleaning Services, which operates cleaning services for eight locations in northern Alberta. She says after Dionne raised concerns, she went back to BrightHR for more information and was told employees' movements within the geofence are not specifically monitored. Yehia says she shared that information with Dionne. The app was a solution to a problem, says Yehia -- she was looking for a way to simplify payroll by easily tracking hours and making sure employees who claimed they were working were actually on the job. "We had some issues in some locations where they would say they were on site, that they were working, but they weren't," she said, clarifying that attendance was not an issue with Dionne. She also says Dionne's refusal to download the app wasn't the sole reason she was fired.

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School Custodian Refuses To Download Phone App That Monitors Location, Says It Got Her Fired

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  • by Joe_Dragon ( 2206452 ) on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @06:23PM (#61270442)

    do they pay for an data plan / phone plan + at least an basic phone if they want some to use an on line app the pushers data all the time?

    • They'd likely be on the school wifi if they're at the school. No need to use wireless data.
      • by jbengt ( 874751 ) on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @06:50PM (#61270524)
        Still, if they asked me to install it on my phone, I'd let them know I haven't received my work phone, yet.
        I have refused to install work e-mail and other attention-grabbing stuff on my personal phone. I want to keep work separated from personal items.
        • by WankerWeasel ( 875277 ) on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @08:18PM (#61270788)
          So they give her a work phone and ask her to carry it with her at all times when at work. Argument solved. The point is that this isn't really different than what many Fortune 500 companies have been doing for years and people don't complain. You don't see people refusing to scan a badge to enter their building because their employer will know if they are or aren't at work, despite it communicating that exact information and more.
          • by NateFromMich ( 6359610 ) on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @08:44PM (#61270878)

            You don't see people refusing to scan a badge to enter their building because their employer will know if they are or aren't at work, despite it communicating that exact information and more.

            That's because the badge is company property and is a completely different situation. This is about being forced to install some random app on your phone that is designed to spy on you. I think anyone that isn't concerned in that situation is foolish.
            If they provided a work devices or maybe a gps tracking badge for work, then fine.

            • That's cool. So your issue is installing it on your own phone. That's fine. Plenty of companies do that now too. Asking employees to install 2FA apps in order to access all types of company systems. Many of them are offered company devices but most aren't.
            • It’s also much better to use a badge because it hoovers up the absolute minimum amount of data - you badged in at X time, you badged out a Y time. Unlike a phone where it knows exactly where you are at all times.
      • They'd likely be on the school wifi if they're at the school. No need to use wireless data.

        LOL. Given they are the employees of a contractor, they surely do not fit the criterion to be given access to the school wifi, which is probably turned off at night "to save money"...

        • They'd likely be on the school wifi if they're at the school. No need to use wireless data.

          LOL. Given they are the employees of a contractor, they surely do not fit the criterion to be given access to the school wifi, which is probably turned off at night "to save money"...

          And hopefully blocks access to malware sites, like this tracking company.

  • by phalse phace ( 454635 ) on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @06:33PM (#61270464)

    She should have told him that she doesn't have a smartphone.

    • Re:No Smartphone (Score:5, Insightful)

      by currently_awake ( 1248758 ) on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @06:43PM (#61270494)
      Her phone wasn't part of her job. What they wanted to do is equivelent to telling her to use her car to drive her boss around (work). If they want her running spyware they can provide the phone and data plan.
      • If they want her running spyware they can provide the phone and data plan.

        I love that idea, unfortunately none of the laws currently on the books support that view. What they wanted to do is the equivalent of you driving to work. No one argues that your car is your property, no one argues that your phone is your property. However, when your car is on your employers property they've got every right to search it, tell you to move it, and so on. Likewise is the current argument that courts in several states have come to the conclusion. Once your phone is on your employers prope

        • Comment removed based on user account deletion
        • by sjames ( 1099 )

          So the app would disappear as soon as her shift ended? Or were they insisting on "borrowing" it 24/7?

          Would you loan your car to your employer? How about if they didn't have any sort of insurance and couldn't or wouldn't say exactly what they will do with it?

        • Re:No Smartphone (Score:5, Insightful)

          by garett_spencley ( 193892 ) on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @10:21PM (#61271090) Journal

          Once your phone is on your employers property, they have every right to tell you to start running their spyware.

          How do you figure ? Just because you are on company property does not give them any right to make alterations to your personal possessions. Just imagine telling female employees that they must add a transparent window to their purses so people can see what is inside for security purposes. We're not even talking about using a company-issued purse but demanding that they must make this alteration to their existing purse that they bought themselves outside of work for non-work purposes.

          I suppose the employer could try and make it a contractual agreement and you are free to not bring your purse to work or not work there at all ... but on what planet do they have the *right* (your word) to demand that you (tell you to) alter your personal property?

          The most they can do is make it part of the contract that part of your job duties require you to use "a" mobile device that has said software installed on it and that the employee is responsible for procuring and configuring this device at their own expense. The closest analog I can think of is when employees need to purchase their own uniforms. I wouldn't accept such an employment offer but I would agree the employer has the right to try and find people who would voluntarily agree to such a ridiculous clause.

        • unfortunately none of the laws currently on the books support that view

          While this is true, it is also true that there is no law currently on the books that requires one to provide personal property in service of employment without prior agreement. If at the time the employment contract was offered and accepted there was no requirement for the provision of personal cell phone services to be used by the employer, then that cannot be made a condition of the contract by unilateral amendment. It may only be added as a condition of the contract by agreement between the parties to

        • by Gimric ( 110667 )

          If they want her running spyware they can provide the phone and data plan.

          I love that idea, unfortunately none of the laws currently on the books support that view. What they wanted to do is the equivalent of you driving to work. No one argues that your car is your property, no one argues that your phone is your property. However, when your car is on your employers property they've got every right to search it, tell you to move it, and so on. Likewise is the current argument that courts in several states have come to the conclusion. Once your phone is on your employers property, they have every right to tell you to start running their spyware.

          I know a lot of people do not like that and by all means, everyone is free to go speak to their local lawmakers about the situation. As it stands, your employer can tell you to turn on the spyware, you can tell them you won't, and they can tell you that you are fired. And that's about the skinny of it as it stands.

          What "laws currently on the books" support an employer's right to require installation of a tracking app on an employee's phone?

          And no, this isn't like having to drive to work. It would be like requiring an employee to put advertising on their car when they drive to work.

        • by rossz ( 67331 )

          Put down the crack pipe. They have no right to search your car. You must work for some shitty company that has somehow convinced you they are allowed to do that.

    • by Sebby ( 238625 )

      She should have told him that she doesn't have a smartphone.

      In which case they should've provided one to run that app, since it's apparently a "requirement of employment" (she got fired for not running that app on her personal device).

      • Of course, if a "spy device" was provided by the employer, there is no requirement for the employee to carry the thing about when not being paid to do so. Unless the contract was extremely carefully worded either (a) the employer would have to pay the employee 24x7x365 or (b) the employee should just leave the employers' device in on the employers' premises.

        Personally, I would be happy to carry around the employers "spy device" for no charge while working on the employers premise. However, "transportation

        • by Luckyo ( 1726890 )

          When you're "happy to get a shitty cleaning job", you're not going to be in a position to make any such demands.

    • Re:No Smartphone (Score:5, Insightful)

      by geekmux ( 1040042 ) on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @06:48PM (#61270520)

      She should have told him that she doesn't have a smartphone.

      And would you have stayed at the job, if they handed you a company provided phone?

      The phone, isn't really the main issue here. Free citizens accepting and allowing this corporate spyware bullshit to infect many other jobs, is. And the sad part we're not reading about, are the eight locations full of cleaning service employees who installed said spyware without hesitation or question.

      Talk about fighting a losing battle.

      • by Sebby ( 238625 )

        And would you have stayed at the job, if they handed you a company provided phone?

        The phone, isn't really the main issue here. Free citizens accepting and allowing this corporate spyware bullshit to infect many other jobs, is.

        I don't really see this as 'spyware' in the sense that the employer wanted to verify that employees were, in fact, doing their job at the location/times they were supposed to (a sort of 'digital punch clock') - they simply went about it really badly (they impelented this because they had problems with other employees) - it shouldn't have been a requirement to run it on her own device (she got fired for refusing to install it), and they could've instead provided other means to monitor her during her work hou

      • by Ken D ( 100098 )

        Sure! I'd have kept the phone in my on-site employee locker for safe keeping.

    • by Gimric ( 110667 )

      Or "I tried to install it, but it wouldn't work on my Nokia 6210."

  • by Sebby ( 238625 ) on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @06:39PM (#61270484)

    If it's a requirement for the job (or else you get fired because this), then it's up to the employer to provide the smartphone (or really, ankle bracelet apparently) to run the app on.

    It shouldn't fall on the employee to foot the cost of the device (and the employer certainly shouldn't assume they already own one) and/or any data usage for such an app, especially if this requirement wasn't communicated prior to being hired.

    • by jbengt ( 874751 )
      Such an easily defeated surveillance, too. Unlike the aforementioned ankle bracelet, I wouldn't doubt she could just leave the phone within the required boundaries while out having her 3 hour, 2 martini lunch.
      • by Sebby ( 238625 )

        she could just leave the phone within the required boundaries while out having her 3 hour, 2 martini lunch.

        I don't know anything about the app itself, but I would presume that it likely detects/verifies movements within that geofence, or else anything that makes sure the device doesn't stay completely stationary during the verified time period.

        • by CubicleZombie ( 2590497 ) on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @08:03PM (#61270734)

          she could just leave the phone within the required boundaries while out having her 3 hour, 2 martini lunch.

          I don't know anything about the app itself, but I would presume that it likely detects/verifies movements within that geofence, or else anything that makes sure the device doesn't stay completely stationary during the verified time period.

          Then rotate which co-worker carries all the phones around while everyone else takes a 3 hour lunch.

        • 2 sided tape, and a roomba.

          Problem. Solved.

        • she could just leave the phone within the required boundaries while out having her 3 hour, 2 martini lunch.

          I don't know anything about the app itself, but I would presume that it likely detects/verifies movements within that geofence, or else anything that makes sure the device doesn't stay completely stationary during the verified time period.

          That's what model trains are for. Put your phone on it. Let it run in circles. Movement detection satisfied.

    • If it's a requirement for the job (or else you get fired because this), then it's up to the employer to provide the smartphone (or really, ankle bracelet apparently) to run the app on.

      It shouldn't fall on the employee to foot the cost of the device (and the employer certainly shouldn't assume they already own one) and/or any data usage for such an app, especially if this requirement wasn't communicated prior to being hired.

      The issue isn't the cost, it's the tracking.

      The app maker claims "employees' movements within the geofence are not specifically monitored" but how is that enforced? Employees only have the app maker's word to go on. And realistically, the app maker has a lot of incentives to keep a much more extensive record of the employee movements so I wouldn't trust that more detailed information isn't stored in their database.

      • by Sebby ( 238625 )

        The app maker claims "employees' movements within the geofence are not specifically monitored" but how is that enforced?

        That sounds like a shitty app then, and an equally shitty choice/decision by the employer to use it. A punch clock at the location(s) seems like a better solution.

        • The app maker claims "employees' movements within the geofence are not specifically monitored" but how is that enforced?

          That sounds like a shitty app then, and an equally shitty choice/decision by the employer to use it. A punch clock at the location(s) seems like a better solution.

          Ok, you design the app. How do you assure the user that you're not collecting anything other than whether or not they're in the geofence?

          If your app is secure as it should be then it's encrypting communications, and if it's encrypting communications then no one can verify that you send nothing but whether the user is in or out of the geofence.

          I don't think the app designer or the employer is up to anything particularly sketchy, but what they can do is unfortunately limited.

    • by fermion ( 181285 )
      Ideally the terms of employment would be set at hiring. Normal stuff like you buy appropriate clothes and pay for transportation to wok, food, etc are a given in most cases. If there are any extraordinary requirements like maybe $20 for your McDonaldâ(TM)s uniform, that should also be discussed.

      The mistake here was not clarifying all aspects of the job. The employee had a right to not accept the employment given what might have been onerous work conditions, but the employer, given that any person o

  • If a company requires an employee to run an app as part of their job, they should supply the phone to run it on. Then the employee can turn it on when they get to work and turn it off when they leave.

    • Then what's the point? They should have used an old punch-clock or similar time-keeping system.
      • by geekmux ( 1040042 ) on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @07:16PM (#61270622)

        Then what's the point? They should have used an old punch-clock or similar time-keeping system.

        Gee, if only there were some easy way to tell if a cleaning crew, did their cleaning job, and cleaned.

        I guess we'll just have to wait for Captain Obvious to be re-born again to verify, along with Common F. Sense and Jesus H. Christ.

    • by PPH ( 736903 )

      Then the employee can turn it on when they get to work and turn it off when they leave.

      Leave the company phone in my locker at work. I must be on the job 7x24.

  • But really, if her employer wanted her to run an app on a smartphone, her employer should have provided the phone and data plan!

    Man, Slashdot, why does it take so long for people to speak up about these common sense ideas?

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by geekmux ( 1040042 )

      But really, if her employer wanted her to run an app on a smartphone, her employer should have provided the phone and data plan!

      Man, Slashdot, why does it take so long for people to speak up about these common sense ideas?

      Employer provides the phone. Problem solved? Hmm..I wonder how a somewhat pessimistic outlook, might play out.

      * 45 seconds from now *

      (CNN Breaking News)"In a rather shocking announcement, every major cellular carrier in America is now offering every major corporation in America, a completely free and unlimited cellular plan for every employee, including the latest hardware."

      * 12 hours later *

      (Corporate HR)"Your brand new corporate smartphone will be issued to you soon, along with a revised copy of the Emp

    • her employer should have provided the phone and data plan!

      It's in Canada, home of the most expensive data plans in the known universe...

      • her employer should have provided the phone and data plan!

        It's in Canada, home of the most expensive data plans in the known universe...

        Probably all the more reason they want to saddle the employee with the cost of monitoring themselves.

  • by tmmagee ( 1475877 ) on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @06:59PM (#61270558)

    The one time in my adult life I have been fired was because of a phone that tracked my location. I had to clock in and out from worksites. One day, my boss asked me if I visited a client the day before. I said I had. She said my clock in showed I was at home. And it did! I asked them to send me the exact location from my clock in, and it was precisely from my home. But I had actually clocked in from a client site an hour away.

    The truth is, this is probably not what I was fired for. After my boss informed me, I went to HR and asked for an investigation. I wanted them to contact the client to confirm my location, and I wanted them to investigate how this could have happened. I just could not imagine how the location data could be so incriminatingly wrong. Someone from HR said they would investigate, and then they fired me the next day.

    The real lessons from this experience: never trust phone tracking software, and never ever go to HR.

    • I've had GPS flake out on my phone before, showing some previous location and frozen, refusing to update. I'd have to hard reboot the phone to get it to reset to the proper location. This is on an i-device, not some ancient 60 dollar android phone. If I'd logged my location at those points in time, it would totally have been wrong.

      First lesson: if a boss wants to fire you, they will find a reason.

      Second lesson: This boss did you a favor. Any job that will fire you because of a single electronically-
    • by kriston ( 7886 )

      The real lesson is that your employer was looking for an easy way to fire you. Best bet is to reflect on what would have prompted them to do that, e.g., high pay prompting the hire of a new, cheaper replacement employee; personality conflict; other perceived (right or wrong) problem?

    • by labnet ( 457441 ) on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @10:57PM (#61271146)

      The real problem is Americas 'At Will' employment culture.
      In more civilised countries, there is due process to follow, or the employer could be in big trouble.

  • by awwshit ( 6214476 ) on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @07:31PM (#61270668)

    "We're not thieves. We don't need an ankle monitor.", she told Go Public.

  • by sconeu ( 64226 ) on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @07:58PM (#61270718) Homepage Journal

    Or they could, you know, treat their employees like adults, and assume that they are actually doing their job... Like they did before ankle bracelets^W^W tracking apps became available.

    • Re:Or.... (Score:4, Informative)

      by jroysdon ( 201893 ) on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @08:17PM (#61270786)

      I know reading the article is overrated, but it states even in the summary that they have problems with employees lying and saying they are on site working when they are not.

      The solution is to spot check each employee handful of random times a year. Then go after the problems with criminal charges with wage theft. Folks tend to line if they know there is jail time behind forging work hours on a time card. But then supervisors would actually have to get off their butts and actually go into the field and .... supervise.

      • *walk the line

      • All this does is raise the bar on who can still forge the timesheet.

        I assume this is on Android, because Apple would have red tape a mile long on sideloading this shitshow.

        So-- Get one of the several hundred location API spoofing apps, disable the GPS, then press the "build information" button in the settings menu a shitload of times to turn on developer mode, and turn on location api diagnostics/spoofing.

        Now you can make it look like your phone is happily wandering around inside the place you are supposed

  • This is a solution that won't work. Any slackers will just buy a cheap phone to run the app. Show up to work, put in an hour, leave the cheap phone on site, and go take a 4 hour lunch, come back, work a couple of hours, and then take the cheap phone home.

    • You can't just leave the phone in one place. You have to attach it to the work truck or wheelbarrow of someone that will be on site.

      • Nope, it's just a geofence showing either on the work site or outside of the work site. Not tracking movement within.

  • by hoofie ( 201045 )

    I find it ironic that it's a British company selling this app.

    Employment law in the UK is extremely strict and any business asking it's employees in the UK would be on a one way trip to an Employment Tribunal expecting a big financial slap.

    It was also a British company that was selling desk sensors that detected whether you were sitting at your desk. One newspaper installed them and very quickly had to rip them out again when it was pointed out how many laws they had just broken.

  • Shock collars to go along with the "invisible fence".

  • Hello (Score:5, Insightful)

    by sjames ( 1099 ) on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @10:29PM (#61271104) Homepage Journal

    Please install this random app you've never heard of on your personal smart phone. It's written by the best offshore programmers who weren't good enough to get an H1B that money can buy. We know that because the low bidder we are paying for this says so and their salesman has a nice suit. We pinkie swear it won't hoover your contacts and banking info, mine bitcoin, track you after hours, or inject extra ads (Nice suit guy said so)!

    Of course the administration won't be installing it on their phones, why would they?

  • Why do they need to monitor her location ? Surely if nobody sees her at school all week and stuff isnt done shouldnt that be a measure of her work ? How does knowing her location prove she actually did anything ?
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