Tesla Faces Even More Union Trouble In the EU (msn.com) 177
Long-time Slashdot reader destinyland writes: Friday Tesla decided to appeal a U.S. National Labor Relations Board ruling that it violated America's labor laws, reports Reuters. And they're even appealing its order that Elon Musk delete a 2018 tweet which the Board said "coercively threatened" workers considering unionization with the loss of stock options.
But Tesla is also facing growing unionization efforts in other countries. Tesla is building a giant plant in Germany, but "it hasn't yet made nice with the mighty auto union" IG Metall, reports Business Insider, noting that a battle with the union "could threaten Tesla's ambitious plans for the European market."
And this union is especially motivated, Stephen Silvia, a professor at American University researching comparative labor relations, tells Business Insider: Allowing a massive non-union plant to build cars in Germany would set the dangerous precedent that companies don't need to engage in collective bargaining, he said. It would also mean thousands of members would potentially go without the contractually enforced job security, wages, and benefits the rest of the industry enjoys. Moreover, IG Metall stands to lose bargaining power with other automakers if it can't get Tesla to play ball, said Arthur Wheaton, an automotive industry expert at Cornell University's School of Industrial and Labor Relations. It's especially crucial that IG Metall preserve all the sway it can at a time when carmakers are pivoting to EV production, which, Wheaton said, requires roughly 30% fewer workers than traditional auto manufacturing....
Silvia, who has spoken to the union about its plans, anticipates a public relations campaign and protests to exert political and social pressure on Tesla to "be a good corporate citizen."
"It's very difficult to force a completely unwilling company," Silvia said. "They'll just have to make [Tesla's] life as uncomfortable as possible..." Wheaton, however, thinks IG Metall's main weapon for putting the squeeze on Tesla is blocking the completion of the factory altogether. IG Metall could work with environmentalist groups to slow down construction, he said.
But Tesla is also facing growing unionization efforts in other countries. Tesla is building a giant plant in Germany, but "it hasn't yet made nice with the mighty auto union" IG Metall, reports Business Insider, noting that a battle with the union "could threaten Tesla's ambitious plans for the European market."
And this union is especially motivated, Stephen Silvia, a professor at American University researching comparative labor relations, tells Business Insider: Allowing a massive non-union plant to build cars in Germany would set the dangerous precedent that companies don't need to engage in collective bargaining, he said. It would also mean thousands of members would potentially go without the contractually enforced job security, wages, and benefits the rest of the industry enjoys. Moreover, IG Metall stands to lose bargaining power with other automakers if it can't get Tesla to play ball, said Arthur Wheaton, an automotive industry expert at Cornell University's School of Industrial and Labor Relations. It's especially crucial that IG Metall preserve all the sway it can at a time when carmakers are pivoting to EV production, which, Wheaton said, requires roughly 30% fewer workers than traditional auto manufacturing....
Silvia, who has spoken to the union about its plans, anticipates a public relations campaign and protests to exert political and social pressure on Tesla to "be a good corporate citizen."
"It's very difficult to force a completely unwilling company," Silvia said. "They'll just have to make [Tesla's] life as uncomfortable as possible..." Wheaton, however, thinks IG Metall's main weapon for putting the squeeze on Tesla is blocking the completion of the factory altogether. IG Metall could work with environmentalist groups to slow down construction, he said.
Shows just how "environmental" some env groups are (Score:5, Insightful)
IG Metall's main weapon for putting the squeeze on Tesla is blocking the completion of the factory altogether. IG Metall could work with environmentalist groups to slow down construction
Can't say I hold in very high regard any "environmental" group that would take action to slow the production of electric cars, to protect a union.
Re:Shows just how "environmental" some env groups (Score:5, Informative)
What an ignorant comment.
Those groups already exist, IG Metall or not, and they don't have a problem with electric cars.
They had/have a problem with that "Giga factory" being huge and it being built right in the middle of a forest, i.e. they aren't happy with the deforestation and messed up ecosystems and with Tesla's original estimate of needing close to 900 million gallons of water per year that have to come from somewhere.
Re:Shows just how "environmental" some env groups (Score:5, Informative)
900 million gallons of water per year that have to come from somewhere.
Germany gets 40 inches of rain annually.
900 million gallons is the amount of water that falls on 335 hectares.
There are parking lots bigger than that.
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Annually doesn't mean it rains every day. Germany is not the UK.
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Yes. The last few summers have been exceptionally dry, destroying harvests and forcing the communes to ban lawn watering.
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Great, now store the water and use it.
99% of the water Los Angeles needs falls on the city every year as rain but it runs off into the ocean immediately because LA is about 99% paved.
The water being there doesn't mean anything on its own.
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While the principle of your comment is right, it's quite disingenuous to compare LA (a 1300 square kilometer slab of concrete) with basically anything in Germany. That rainfall in LA runs to the ocean because *it's designed and engineered to do so*. Presumably you'd engineer it differently if your goal was to store the water.
Imperial or US? (Score:2)
900 million gallons is the amount of water that falls on 335 hectares.
Would that be imperial gallons (4.5 litres) or US gallons (3.8 litres)? This is why in Germany and the rest of the planet the metric system reigns for rains.
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Germany may get 40 inches of rain annually, but, as indicated in a ZDF story on the Berlin/Brandenburg GigaFactory [www.zdf.de], the area is in a drought [www.ufz.de]. Also, the site is reportedly above a high point in an aquifer, but I can't find a link to cite on that.
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IG Metal and others have nothing to do with environmentalists anyway.
And most Germans agree that environmentalists in this case are simply idiots.
The forrest in question is a PAPER and WOOD plantation and not a FORREST by any means of the word forrest. On top of that Tesla has agreed to plant a new and bigger "real forrest" not to far away. A real forrest as recreational area for the local population, and obviously as it is not a managed forrest, with wildlife. How an environmentalist can be against that: n
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It's in the middle of a tree farm, not a forest. A tree farm is not a forest. [cortescurrents.ca]
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Actually, that web site is wrong as it is a BC web site where tree farm has a specific meaning, mainly a forest that some company or where I live, the town, has rights to the forest. From https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/con... [gov.bc.ca]
Tree Farm Licences
A tree farm licence (TFL) is an area-based tenure that grants virtually exclusive rights to harvest timber and manage and conserve forests, recreation and cultural heritage resources on a specified area of land.
Many places, a tree farm is more like a regular farm and we would need to see the local interpretation of what a tree farm is.
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Not to mention that Europe has a much higher population density than the United States. This makes every bit of land much more valuable, and needs to be treated with far more care than in the United States. In the US, if you need 1000 acres, then you can probably find a place that has it, and you can use it for nearly whatever you want, because even if you pollute to a point where it is unlivable, there is plenty of other land to build and develop. While in Europe, that 1000 acres, needs to be carefull
Re:Shows just how "environmental" some env groups (Score:5, Interesting)
In San Francisco, it took a long court battle to overcome "environmentalist" objections to bike lanes: https://sf.streetsblog.org/201... [streetsblog.org] . Really? Bikes will pollute more than cars?
Same with Tesla. They were blocked on "cutting down the forest", while it was a tree farm, not a forest. i.e.: the pine trees were planted to be cut down to become cardboard in the first place: https://megaphone.upworthy.com... [upworthy.com] . But the environmentalists and the media hype were reporting as if they were cleaning out the Amazon rainforests.
I really believe we need to be good stewards of the environment. But I don't like environmental rules to be co-opted to block actual progress.
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The people who pushed for environmental regulations could be very different from the people who are now abusing it for their own agenda. If there really is no case for blocking it on environmental grounds, it's up to the government's regulatory body to decide that, and I doubt they'd be easily fooled by the media. Moreover, if Tesla does not like the results, it can always switch to a different location or even to another country within the EU.
Re:Shows just how "environmental" some env groups (Score:5, Informative)
Rob Anderson is not an environmentalist, he's a douchbag who hates bike lanes and bike parking because they take away space from cars. He only used the environmental rules because they were all he had, and of course he eventually lost.
As for the tree farm, artificial or not the point is that it's become a habitat for various species now. Cutting it down will displace them, there is no getting away from that.
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Actually, a young regenerating forest has much more wildlife in it then an established forest. Small trees with lots of other vegetation in between, things like berries for the bears, grass and young tree shoots for the deer etc, whereas an established forest has most of its life in the canopy.
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If you look at Tesla Marketing, they don't do much marketing effort in showing how Green their cars are, but how fast, powerful, smart, comfortable they are. Also their mission statement "Tesla's mission is to accelerate the world's transition to sustainable energy. " Is towards sustainable energy, not necessarily clean energy.
In terms of marketing (excluding whatever Musk is ranting about) Tesla keeps themselves distance from being considered the product for the environmentally conscious. I think mainly t
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Remind me again how many weeks annual leave the average American worker gets?
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Workers with no experience get on average 2 weeks of vacation, workers with more experience average 3 weeks, people with more than 5 years average 4-5 weeks. That is on top of the national holidays.
Note these are averages, I get 6 weeks per year but can carry over 6 weeks so I could get 3 months of vacation in one year.
These numbers all assume someone is with the same company for years. As a contractor, I’ve never had more than a few hours of paid vacation. Would be nice to find a company that would pay me for weeks off of work but that’s rare for most Americans.
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Your post confuses me.
A contractor doesn't get "paid vacation"....you generally calculate what bill rate you need to cover your vacation/sick leave (you don't work you don't get paid), medical insurance, retirement, etc....
It's actually one of the nice things about being a contractor, the company doesn't tell you how much time you can take off nor when you
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This article indicates that the US average number of vacation days used is somewhere around 18 days/year pre-covid. Down from the historical average of 21 days. Every person who gets 4, 5 or 6 weeks of paid vacation is being offset by people who are getting less than 3 weeks. And this compares with the state manda
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It is good for MY environment thank you very much.
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I guess we all know you are a fucking idiot with no integrity or honesty left in your bones. Hey why worry about due process, when people like you can just invent outcomes on innocent people because of your feelings. Go jump off a cliff.
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Clearly written by someone who imagines that they have any leverage with their employer, assuming they're employed.
The GOP has nearly destroyed union, and employee protection in the US, because that's what the 1% and the companies are paying them to do.
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I reason the other way around:
Someone who argues carefully and reasonably probably has an agenda that may or may not be transparent. That makes me suspicious.
Someone who is passionate is likely to be honest. Quite possibly wrong, but honest.
(Also didn't read the shouting)
Re: Union power and money (Score:2)
It's bold text, not caps. I agree with you but the person's reply may be sarcasm. Next thing you know, anything in italics means your views are skewed.
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I completely disagree.
Did you miss the last president of the US? Have you missed a couple decades of conservative talk radio and fox news? Never been exposed to an evangelical preacher?
Tons of people use emotion and passion to cover their agenda, and get people working on emotion and not logic and reason. Your position is the exact opposite of a sensible one. Instead of judging an argument on the content, you're judging on the window dressing.
This is exactly what's wrong with the US today. Focus on the cont
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I guess I could be interpreted as suggesting that one should trust one or the other, but that is not what I meant.
Some people fall for calm reasoning, others for passionate agitation. I tend to instinctively do the former, so I am working on being more skeptic in those situations. When someone is agitated they are likely to be either irrational (even if honest) or bullsh*ing you (yeah I forgot about those), so the guards are (should be) automatically up.
On this side of the pond, the evangelic preachers are
What nonsense ... (Score:5, Interesting)
Allowing a massive non-union plant to build cars in Germany would set the dangerous precedent that companies don't need to engage in collective bargaining,
Unions don't work like this in Europe. Every plant is "non union". The workers are in a union and thats it.
The unions negotiate with companies though, and that leads to contracts. A company can do absolutely nothing about workers being in a union or not. And it can do absolutely nothing when workers go on strike of the company behaves ill.
The American union law is just a joke, and the reason why nothing there is working properly. Historically the first unions there were run by the MAFIA and you could not get a one day work hire if you would not pay to the union - erm MAFIA - and now look at the mess you have now.
Re:What nonsense ... (Score:5, Insightful)
The unions negotiate with companies though, and that leads to contracts. A company can do absolutely nothing about workers being in a union or not. And it can do absolutely nothing when workers go on strike of the company behaves ill.
The environment that companies in the EU and in Germany in particular is unrecognizable to the average American. Workers are accustomed to rights and treatment that would make the right-wing crowd scream for their congressmen to vote to take away health care from everybody again because socialism.
There is nothing wrong with people in Germany wanting Tesla to operate the same way other successful car companies in Germany operate. Audi, Mercedes, Porsche, VW. All hugely successful consistently albeit not without problems. I am a big Musk fan, but if I thinks he is going to call his own shots there he is in for a rude awaking.
But I doubt that is the case. Regardless of what he himself thought he tends to hire and listen to very competent and experienced people who would have explained everything to him. This "trouble with unions" story is probably just trumped-up clickbait.
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Citation needed. On narrow technical matters, sure. But when it involves telling him he's wrong about something?
Re:What nonsense ... (Score:5, Informative)
The environment that companies in the EU and in Germany in particular is unrecognizable to the average American.
The average American no, but in academia, especially economics the system in Germany is well-known. It is named appropriately, The German Model. You can read about it in Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_model
A short summary;
The term German model is most often used in economics to describe post-World War II West Germany's means of using (according to University College London Professor Wendy Carlin) innovative industrial relations, vocational training, and closer relationships between the financial and industrial sectors to cultivate economic prosperity.
Industrial relations
Under the German model, unions are organized at the industry level and co-exist with works councils at both the plant and company levels. These unions negotiate wage determination with employers' associations. The strength of this setup is the cooperation among unions and management councils. This is unique among Western countries, which have been marked by either substantial weakening of union powers (such as in the United States and United Kingdom) over the last twenty years, or consistent union conflict (such as in France and Italy, where unions have remained strong).
Consensus model
As in relations between unions and employers, the German model also seeks to harmonize relations between regulatory bodies and affected parties, as well as between individual companies to prevent ruinous competition within the scope of applicable antitrust law. Considered an outgrowth of the non-confrontational culture of postwar Germany, finding a common denominator was often the main goal in such relationships.
Vocational education and training
The system of vocational education is perhaps the most important component of the German model, and is still very prevalent in the German educational system. In Germany, there is a much heavier emphasis on apprenticeships for skilled positions, taught by expert worker-instructors. It has been made possible through long-term politics, focusing on establishing stronger links between the dual vocational education and training system and institutes of higher education, on improving integration into vocational training through basic skills and permeability and on establishing national coverage of branch-specific regional initial and continuing training centres.
As such, there is a lower percentage of university students in Germany when compared to other Western countries, and a much lower percentage of persons entering the workforce for on-the-job training.
Re: What nonsense ... (Score:2, Informative)
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Giving employees stock options in Tesla is surely better than some split the limited pie up union negotiated pay rise.
Stock options are very weird and unpredictable. It's almost impossible to safely predict their real value. They may be useful in executive pay but, even there, because their value tends to be quite short term and period specific, they can be quite distorting with the people involved attempting to push up the short term share price at the cost of the long term survival of the company.
Employee share purchase schemes, where the employer contributes some of the purchase price, may well be better for what you a
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I mean, I think that if people are concerned about volatility, they should definitely not buy our stock. I’m not here [on an earnings call] to convince you to buy [Tesla] stock. Do not buy it if volatility is scary. There you go.
- Elon Musk, 2018
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The difference in approach here is that at Tesla, every employee gets stock options. I doubt that factory floor peons at Audi get stock options.
https://electrek.co/2020/07/06... [electrek.co]
The stock options of factory floor workers at Tesla have made many of them very, very wealthy ( their standard 20K in options has grown to hundreds of thousands of dollars ) due to how fast Tesla has grown... it has been, to date, demonstrably superior to any union-negotiated compensation scheme.
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Re:So no business allowed to operate differently? (Score:4, Informative)
What is wrong with some or even most car manufactures being union. And couple or even one not being union? Should competition with the union be encouraged?
It's a breach of the fundamental right to freedom of association. If a bunch of people want to join an organisation, there should be no possible right to stop them. If a bunch of people don't want to join an organisation there should be nothing to stop them. If a company attempts to stop people joining an organisation, like a union, then that company is no longer a company, it is an organised crime syndicate and, if they won't come peacefully, then the entire senior management of that company should be taken out.
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Forgive my ignorance, but despite it being as you say and the company has no right to interfere with workers ability to join a union what forces the company to deal with the union?
Does a company not have the right to say we wish only to deal directly with those we are looking to hire, and not their unions, lawyers, or mother-in-laws?
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To clarify, I don't mean they would choose not to hire the union person, only that they would refrain from collective bargaining if they wished to contract directly with the person.
Um.. the first Unions go back to the 1700s (Score:3)
Yes, they did stick their nose into organized labor. They did the same for real estate, gambling and booze but I don't hear anyone blaming those for the decline of America...
See, this is what I hate about America (besides how we fall for the Southern Strategy & get distracted by wedge issues). We get something, it does a lot of good, it has problems, and instead of saying "gee, we should fix those problems so we can continue enjoying the benefits of this
Re:What nonsense ... (Score:5, Informative)
Unions don't work like this in Europe. Every plant is "non union". The workers are in a union and thats it.
The unions negotiate with companies though, and that leads to contracts. A company can do absolutely nothing about workers being in a union or not. And it can do absolutely nothing when workers go on strike of the company behaves ill.
In the US:
1. Unions negotiate contracts with employers on behalf of employees
2. Federal law prohibits companies from preventing employees from forming unions, or threatening reprisal if they do so. That is specifically what Elon Musk is in hot water for doing, in fact.
3. Employers cannot stop employees from going on strike.
There are so-called 'right to work' states that specifically prohibit contracts that require an employer to only use union labor, and in those states employers are far more free to just hire replacement workers or take other measures to get around the strike, but even in that case nothing prevents actions like picket lines off of company property.
Historically the first unions there were run by the MAFIA and you could not get a one day work hire if you would not pay to the union - erm MAFIA - and now look at the mess you have now.
Organized crime didn't develop a foothold in labor unions until well into the 20th century, and even then it generally used its muscle to extort money from employers, not employees. Not that it justifies their behavior, but this is generally how the Italian mafia always worked, at least in the US - extortion was aimed at business owners primarily. It minimizes the number of people who might cause problems and maximizes their ROI.
FALSE (Score:2, Interesting)
They were not run by the Mafia!
They were *undermined* by agents provocateur moles, in injected by Rockefeller et al! To then point at and go "unions BAD"
In fact that is how the Mafia grew in the first place!
They just then pointed to the unions and said OMGMAFIA when it came out! Conveniently leaving out that it was their guys that they injected there in the first place.
Funnily, that is eactly the same strategy the N@zis used agsinst the French resistance, the NSA used againt Occupy, Tet Party, and 43 groups
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The American union law is just a joke, and the reason why nothing there is working properly. Historically the first unions there were run by the MAFIA and you could not get a one day work hire if you would not pay to the union - erm MAFIA - and now look at the mess you have now.
First of all, the ones that still exist today are not run by the mafia. It's far too hard to hide organized criminal activity at that scale when every single person has a tracking device on them, cameras are everywhere and public support for it is basically zero.
Second, it's not an issue with laws at all. Yes, there are laws that protect unions, such as laws banning the firing of people for trying to unionize, but there's nothing wrong with them. In fact most of the developed world has very similar, if not
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The businesses you're talking about signed contracts with unions that prevents them from using non-union labor or force non-union hires to contribute to the union.
And this is in Germany impossible.
Both the company as well as the workers have the right to hire and/or work for whom ever they want. A union can not prevent a company to hire a non union worker. Contracts that contradict the constitution are impossible.
They could've kept enough money in the bank to ride through any strikes and negotiated differ
Slowing down just to slow down (Score:2)
So the IG metal is slowing down Tesla building a factory just to make it comply with it slowing down the production of car ???
Build the German plant somewhere else? (Score:2)
I don't understand the tap dancing around the German auto workers' union. I'm sure that being in Germany has its advantages, but there are many other countries within a very short distance that potentially offer similar accommodations without the gratuitous labor union forced down their throat.
Re:Build the German plant somewhere else? (Score:4, Insightful)
Then you are mistaken.
Then Germany is in the heart of the EU and all "close by countries" are in the EU, too.
And there is nothing forced down your throat anyway.
Re: Build the German plant somewhere else? (Score:2)
From tfa, maybe not forced, but I wouldnâ(TM)t say they have an idle hand in it, would you?
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You're completely mistaken on this being a German thing. The concept of a collective arguing on behalf employees against a business (not really the same as a union in the USA) is not unique to Germany, in fact all of its neighbouring countries operate the same way to varying degrees.
This is also not unique to blue collar workers. I'm an engineer and I'm covered. As is our administrative assistant, and our janitorial staff, or fitters, electricians, operators, accountants, and lawyers.
It's a very different s
Re: Build the German plant somewhere else? (Score:3)
If you want the best metal workers in the world, you want Germany. It's like where do you want to build if you want the best bakery in the world. (Hint: We are a bread & beer country. This stuff is *serious* business here.)
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I’ve lived in Switzerland, spent a fair bit of time on the road in Germany, and currently live in Denmark. The further north you go, the better the bakeries get - sorry. ;P
But you do have some dark breads down there that are pretty amazing! The Black Forest area is kind of an aberration to that further-north rule. ;)
Even more nonsense (Score:3)
Wheaton, however, thinks IG Metall's main weapon for putting the squeeze on Tesla is blocking the completion of the factory altogether. IG Metall could work with environmentalist groups to slow down construction, he said. ...
And why the funk would IG Metall do that? What an idiot
So ... (Score:3)
Union strategy = mob strategy? (Score:2, Insightful)
Play nice, pay us our cut or we'll make your life as difficult as possible by doing like things like sabotaging your construction projects?
WTF? Since when are companies obligated to deal with unions, even if they hire employees who don't want a union? If a private company threatened to do what the unions are threatening, they'd be hauled into courts on anti-trust or other similar charges. But it's ok for unions to behave like this?
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It's Germany. Germany != America. Their Constitution is based on the Wiemar Constitution, which was written by thee Social Democrats.
Tesla is going to pay the Union contract rate because it's illegal to hire an autoworker for less than the negotiated rate. Their employees are going to join the Union, and pay some minimal union dues, and nobody in the Constitutional Court system is going to protect them because the en tire country (up to and including all the Churches) is built this way.
Re: Union strategy = mob strategy? (Score:2)
How do I hook up to that gravy train? How does one start a union in German and receive this monopoly protection from the government, forcing employees to join my union? Maybe there is room for Electric Vehicle Manufacturing Union? Or, if automotive is overarching because EVs are autos, then perhaps I can start a "workers who get paid" union and take over their membership (other than unpaid volunteer auto workers)?
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For one thing, the answer to that question is obvious: Same way you'd "take over the membership" of the US Government: clone yourself enough times that you have a majority of the votes, and arrange that the clones have the right to vote, then wait for the election...
For another, angel'o'sphere has a much more better explanation of why this is silly butthurt from Tesla stans. It's bloody Germany man. You ask them to work for a different contract rate than the other auto workers they don't go "great I'm speci
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Wait, what? Are you saying all the unions in Germany are government institutions? Or are you saying that people vote in the elections which unions get monopoly on what jobs?
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Unions don't have monopolies on jobs.
No idea what you want to say.
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Tesla is going to pay the Union contract rate because it's illegal to hire an autoworker for less than the negotiated rate.
No it is not illegal. They can pay what ever they want if the worker accepts it and it is above minimum wage, however: they will hardly find anyone who accepts less than the agreed wage with the union.
Their employees are going to join the Union, and pay some minimal union dues
No, they are not. Only a small faction of workers are members of unions. But that is enough to talk for all work
Re: Union strategy = mob strategy? (Score:2)
Weimar. Not Wiemar.
Re: Union strategy = mob strategy? (Score:2)
The mob in the 1920s US was LITERALLY caused by Rockefeller's union breakers.
They literally murdered people for trying to balance that market by organizing just like the employers.
They injected moles to act as agents provocateurs and make unions look evil, and that is the literal actual origin of the "unions BAD" tales.
Are you fucking serious??
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How dare Tesla follow the same laws in Germany that everyone else does. I mean what the fuck... I know in the USA you pay a bunch of lobbyist money and things magically go your way but you're saying that isn't so in the EU?
IG Metall (Score:3)
These are the Youtube Union [industriall-union.org] guys.
I'm also fairly sure that the prof cited in the article doesn't understand how unions work in Germany. The union contract is sector-wide, so there's no such thing as a non-union plant. Either you're an auto company who pays the same as all the other Auto companies, or you don't get to make cars. That's it. There's no strikes, there's no strike-breakers, there's just a contract that covers 100% of the industry and if your anti-union ass was too ideological to show up to the meeting where the contract was negotiated you have zero input on what you're paying your employees.
Re:IG Metall (Score:4, Interesting)
That is only half right.
Every company is free to either join the contractor not. In other words the concept that a company is "unionized" does not exit.
There's no strikes, there's no strike-breakers
Of course there are. But only when the normal negotiations don't work, and the unions go for a strike.
Then the workers in the unions usually strike, and the workers not in unions are strike breakers - because if they do not work they get no wages. And the workers in the union get their wages from the union.
The concept is actually: exactly that simple.
The rationale for unions is workers ... (Score:3)
... are forced to work at a plant, they have no other options. But if the plant doesn't exist, how come they have no other options?
Balance of power (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: Balance of power (Score:3, Informative)
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Go fuck yourself, you worthless cocksucker.
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Re:Musk (Score:4, Insightful)
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To be fair, the current government is working really hard to make Australia a very poor copy of the US.
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There are signs of that, but Australia is still a paradise compared to the USA.
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They do not even have something there that resembles what we call vacation.
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I just love how you invent things i have never said, i guess thats american justice and honesty in action for you. Thena gain i forget that america is the land of bullshit with all that advertising.
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Musk is just another corporate dickhead but he's running industries we need in order to move forward. In my book that means he's still an asshole, but he's the kind of asshole we need right now.
Ideally we'd get to a point where we don't need assholes, but that's the system we've created.
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No continuing the current addiction to travelling for everything in a car is not moving forward. You completely fail to see that this is a problem.
> In my book that means he's still an asshole, but he's the kind of asshole we need right now.
Is there something wrong with you that you cant see the problem of mass commuting ? Surely you can see the idea is fucking stupid. Prevention is always bett
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Is there something wrong with you that you cant see the problem of mass commuting ?
There is definitely something wrong with you if you can't see that we live in the really real world where ideas don't win simply because they're technically superior.
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No the problem is you have already admitted defeat, instead of accepting that the commute everywhere lifestyle is stupid, harmful to mental and physical health, an enormous waste of time, and bad for the Environment.
Theres no shame in admitting this is the problem that should be given priority. Never claied it can be solved perfectly b
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You're flapping your face to no effect.
I've probably spent more time championing public transportation on Slashdot than you've spent posting here in total.
That doesn't change the fact that it's easier to sell an incremental improvement, especially in a nation of such self-centered people.
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yet again you are seeing the words but you arent reading the content.
Im not arguing against ONLY cars, im saying all forms of transport are overused.
> That doesn't change the fact that it's easier to sell an incremental improvement, especially in a nation of such self-centered people.
Not discussing the sell, im simpl discussing the identification of the problem, something you
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You cant even tell me that americans travel too much for basic life activities.
They don't, except for work. And even that problem could be mitigated with effective public transport systems. In fact, with better public transport, less people would need to own cars, so they could afford to live closer to work.
However, better public transport systems are a very hard sell in America, so while I still support them I also support EVs.
Re:Musk (Score:4, Insightful)
Without Tesla selling electric cars you'd never see Ford, Audi, Mercedes. Porsche etc etc selling electric models. Tesla proved there is a market.
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So you never leave your moms basement? Got it. Shut down the auto industry, AlexHilbertRyan doesn't need a car so neither does anyone else.
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Re: Musk (Score:2)
Well, I researched where our current wealthy class came from.
And they are all lirerally desendents of former royalty.
Not by blood necessarily. But it's one direct chain of proteges from the old royals over the first children of them who built the first factories to the current wealthy class.
The whole "from nothing" tale is a lie. It's a rare exception that only happens if you become the protege of a wealty person.
Rich, yes but not wealthy.
The difference being: Some sports star may be rich. But he is not we
Re: Musk (Score:2, Interesting)
Would be funny to see the fatcats actually be required under punishement of death, to work exactly as much as they are paid. At standard hourly rates for real-work jobs.
Say making $20 million a year with $20 an hour.
(You cannot make more than ~175k that way, even if you work weekends and do not sleep or rest... ever.)
If there ever is a revolution, I hope that will be our equivalent to the guillotine. Forcing them to work for what they stole, until they die from it. As a big show for everyone.
Of course I'd n
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Your uneducated rant makes pretty clear that you are obviously an American.
Is it not interesting that a company like Tesla sets up a factory in union infested anti free labour market socialist horror Germany?
That should make you think, not rant.
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A huge number of workers in America are treated in a way most of the rest can't comprehend given the wealth of the nation. Virtually no annual leave, limited worker protections, no or limited healthcare, terms changed or outright firings without explanation or compensation, incomprehensibly low minimum wages. Take a look at j
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It is always the more numerous and dangerous jobs that require unionization, and the more 'white collar' jobs sitting at a desk that don't. Of course, those non-union employees usually have something that makes them more rare, and therefore more valuable and harder to replace. For me, it's my education and expertise in a field with very few people it in. Therefore I don't need a union, as the compan
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Who paid you for this stream of absolute shit? Walmart?
Because if there's anyone more emblematic of needing a union to check their abuses, it's them. Biggest employer in the US, and far too many of their employees need government assistance to not starve to death, while they make billions.
You really need to stop shilling, or if this is your honest position, you need to get an education about what labor in the US and around the world really looks like.
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You're a complete jackass. You actually know nothing about real unions, nor about what companies do.