Consumer Reports: Tesla's In-Car Cameras Raise Privacy Concerns (reuters.com) 86
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Reuters: Tesla's use of in-car cameras to record and transmit video footage of passengers to develop self-driving technology raises privacy concerns, influential U.S. magazine Consumer Reports said on Tuesday. Consumer Reports said the usage potentially undermines the safety benefits of driver monitoring, which is to alert drivers when they are not paying attention to the road.
"If Tesla has the ability to determine if the driver isn't paying attention, it needs to warn the driver in the moment, like other automakers already do," said Jake Fisher, senior director of Consumer Reports' auto test center. Automakers such as Ford Motor and General Motors, whose monitoring systems do not record or transmit data or video, use infrared technology to identify drivers' eye movements or head position to warn them if they are exhibiting signs of impairment or distraction, the magazine said. Last week, the Chinese government restricted the use of Tesla's vehicles by military staff and employees of key state-owned companies, citing concerns that the data collected by the cars could be a source of national security leaks.
Elon Musk responded by saying that Tesla would be shut down if its cars were used to spy.
"If Tesla has the ability to determine if the driver isn't paying attention, it needs to warn the driver in the moment, like other automakers already do," said Jake Fisher, senior director of Consumer Reports' auto test center. Automakers such as Ford Motor and General Motors, whose monitoring systems do not record or transmit data or video, use infrared technology to identify drivers' eye movements or head position to warn them if they are exhibiting signs of impairment or distraction, the magazine said. Last week, the Chinese government restricted the use of Tesla's vehicles by military staff and employees of key state-owned companies, citing concerns that the data collected by the cars could be a source of national security leaks.
Elon Musk responded by saying that Tesla would be shut down if its cars were used to spy.
Of course Tesla cameras are spying (Score:1, Insightful)
Prove that they aren't!
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The proof is in the last line of the summary: Elon Musk responded by saying that Tesla would be shut down if its cars were used to spy.
Oh right Elon Musk said it so it must be true, it's not like he's lied numerous times about Tesla in the past and has a vested interest in doing so.
He also has a vested interest in having Tesla continue to operate in and sell cars in China. The biggest car market in the world.
Then the question to ask is, is his greed stronger than whatever hypothetical gain he might get from spying in China?
Do you think he would risk it? Knowing China would be all too happy to ban him and confiscate his shiny new factory.
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Tesla themselves use the cars to spy sometimes. When there is an accident and someone blames the car they don't hesitate to pull all the logged data off it, to use in their own defence.
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So, it is an opt-in privacy concern, unless they can activate it without notifying the user. In that case, I'm going to have to buy a black-out sticker for the camera in my model 3.
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I'd be concerned about the exterior cameras and GPS as well.
If they are using the data to train their self driving system then they will need images, coordinates, speed, acceleration and more.
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I'm okay with the data being used in the event of an accident, what I'm not okay with is that data being shared with the car manufacturer as a matter of course.
In GDPR countries they would need very explicit opt-in permission with a clear explanation of what they intend to do with the data. I don't know if Tesla asks for that or not.
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That said, I'd done a lot of reading up on how they use data to train their driver assist and self-driving algorithms. I know that part of the reason they pay for my 4g data access is so that they can upload data off of my car to help with training.
They did send me an invitation to be part of the beta-test program and that required additional data sharing approvals from me if I wanted to partici
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Tesla themselves use the cars to spy sometimes. When there is an accident and someone blames the car they don't hesitate to pull all the logged data off it, to use in their own defence.
Most everything sold in at least the USA has an EDR in it https://www.edmunds.com/car-te... [edmunds.com]
So if people believe that any data system in their vehicles is spying on them, they aren't going to like this.
They can sometimes have issues too. A few years ago, my truck stopped dead. I had to get towed to the dealer. They reported back to me that the EDR reported I had rolled the truck over. Which I obviously did not.
There is a switch that opens if a vehicle goes inverted in order to cut all the electricity t
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The difference with most EDRs is that they are not connected to the manufacturer's servers and sending back data.
In Europe cars have to have a system that notifies emergency services if the airbags deploy. It sends GPS coordinates to them. It's strictly for emergencies only though.
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The difference with most EDRs is that they are not connected to the manufacturer's servers and sending back data.
In Europe cars have to have a system that notifies emergency services if the airbags deploy. It sends GPS coordinates to them. It's strictly for emergencies only though.
Yet if a witness saw a car that looks like yours, the police can subpoena the device. One of the things I learned long ago is that I leave as many track as I can wherever I go. I wave to the cameras at the convenience store, I have every purchase I make at the ready to prove where I was. Credit card info and ApplePay at the ready. Cross referenced to the cameras.
Let's call it "Naropia", the reverse of paranoia. Because the information one can provide as an alabi, digital proof of where you were is so mu
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How would a subpoena help? It doesn't log, it just calls the emergency services with your current location when the airbags deploy.
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How would a subpoena help? It doesn't log, it just calls the emergency services with your current location when the airbags deploy.
I'm not talking about whatever the emergency requirement is in Europe. I'm talking about if a car that looks like yours was seen in the area where a crime occurred, you might get a search warrant. And if they have a warrant, they will execute it.
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OK, what does that have to do with anything in the comments you're responding to? Someone saw a car driving that's similar to yours so... they'll get a warrant to search your car.... which has, what, nothing to do with GPS systems that are powered up only when your airbags are deployed. So why mention it?
Long story short - I was answering Amimojo, who mentioned the airbag system. I had been speaking of the EDR system, - which isn't part of that system. But we were just conversing. Gotta have a little leeway here, because you know - conversations go where they go. Or perhaps you can have an adult beverage or substance of your choice, and relax, maybe?
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But really, an EDR, which is the equivalent of the airplane's black Box, which is very similar to Tesla's data collection system, is there to analyze issues and troubleshot problems.
Which is more likely to help you rather than harm you.
The significant difference between a black box and the Tesla system is the transmission of the data to Tesla. That doesn't happen for car black boxes or airplane black boxes. The recording of the information is not an issue. It's the transmission that's problematic.
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But really, an EDR, which is the equivalent of the airplane's black Box, which is very similar to Tesla's data collection system, is there to analyze issues and troubleshot problems.
Which is more likely to help you rather than harm you.
The significant difference between a black box and the Tesla system is the transmission of the data to Tesla. That doesn't happen for car black boxes or airplane black boxes. The recording of the information is not an issue. It's the transmission that's problematic.
Why though? What is happening that you must have nothing that you are doing be transmitted anywhere? Your location is being transmitted and recorded if you have a cellular phone. You could turn it off and put it in a metal case I suppose. People have been exhonerated by recording device data https://www.digitalinnocence.c... [digitalinnocence.com] https://www.cbs46.com/investig... [cbs46.com]
What amazes me is that it has taken so long for the legal system to understand that tracking devices are on almost every one of us.
Of course, if
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Why though? What is happening that you must have nothing that you are doing be transmitted anywhere? Your location is being transmitted and recorded if you have a cellular phone.
There are people who don't like the idea of being tracked via cell phone location info. I'm not one of those people. However, put a camera on my face where a company gets to record, monitor, and use that recording however they wish. That's freaky, and I would feel much more uneasy about that. I might have forgotten to shave or comb my hair. I might be picking my nose. Maybe I have a huge zit on my face. Even if the camera isn't on, just thinking that someone is watching me makes my drive much less en
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Why though? What is happening that you must have nothing that you are doing be transmitted anywhere? Your location is being transmitted and recorded if you have a cellular phone.
There are people who don't like the idea of being tracked via cell phone location info. I'm not one of those people. However, put a camera on my face where a company gets to record, monitor, and use that recording however they wish. That's freaky, and I would feel much more uneasy about that. I might have forgotten to shave or comb my hair. I might be picking my nose. Maybe I have a huge zit on my face. Even if the camera isn't on, just thinking that someone is watching me makes my drive much less enjoyable.
Do like we do with computer cameras - tape over it. Or opt out if you can.
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You had to opt in for the data to be sent.
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You had to opt in for the data to be sent.
Well hell, so the whole privacy concern is pretty much about nothing then.
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Seems like the Chinese cell phone tech is getting blocked in the USA for the same reason... an information limiting treaty is in order..
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Seems like the Chinese cell phone tech is getting blocked in the USA for the same reason... an information limiting treaty is in order..
You aren't going to like the fact that some 96 percent of cars sold in the USA have Event Data Recorders (EDRs) and yes they collect data, and yes, the dealers, manufacturers and law enforcement can and do access that information as needed. And they have been there for many years.
That black box on the airliner apparently triggers the Slashdot Privacy Brigade too, it's similar, only more extensive. There are things to worry about, and things not to worry about. Cars taking data is pretty low on the list.
BFD (Score:2)
Cars aren't big enough to get laid in anymore, so its not a great loss if they're watching you all the time.
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Re:BFD (Score:4, Insightful)
Did cars get smaller or did you and your sex partners get older and less flexible?
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Did cars get smaller or did you and your sex partners get older and less flexible?
The phrase you're looking for is Americans got fatter.
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Yeah, I'm much heavier than when I was 20, 150lbs and owned a 78 Trans Am...and no we tried to do it inside...wasn't possible. On the other hand, the back seat of my '12 Charger works just fine for my fat ass.
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Cars aren't big enough to get laid in anymore
Did cars get smaller or did you and your sex partners get older and less flexible?
Both.
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Cars got smaller. A LOT smaller. Try sitting in say a '75 Lincoln or a '71 cadillac, the difference is like sitting on your couch. New cars cram you into some bucket shaped thing like a baby seat. I haven't gotten any bigger or lost flexibility in 30 years because I don't work in an office, never have. But in the old cars, I could stretch out almost full length (6 feet) on the front seat. Try that in anything that was made in the last 10 years.
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Cars didn't get smaller. Small cars have always existed.
Cars got bigger. There's a lot more room in a '21 Escalade than in anything Cadillac made in `71. Same goes for a '71 Lincoln anything and a '21 Navigator.
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Escalade = Navigator
Escalade != CAR
Navigator != CAR
We're not talking about SUVs here.
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Cars don't offer flat bench seats anymore.
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Cars aren't big enough to get laid in anymore
A twin mattress lies flat in my minivan.
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Dude, I did it in a 75 Dodge Colt. I mean, I was 18, and more flexible, but that thing had less room inside than a 65 Bug.
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Dude, I did it in a 75 Dodge Colt. I mean, I was 18, and more flexible, but that thing had less room inside than a 65 Bug.
So you're just going to leave us hanging?
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Tesla doesn't have commentary onboard and Facebook doesn't collect biotelemetry.
Yer gonna have to explain your logic on that one.
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Vacuuming up all data they possibly can through always-on internet-connected sensors, storing it eternally, for any and all uses conceived of now or in the future? It seemed obvious enough to me. Facebook not tracking eye movements (although there are reports they do, from front-facing cameras) and Tesla selling you a car along with the surveillance is beside the point.
Re:Musk is credible (Score:5, Informative)
As a man who was charged with security fraud, and had to step down, I believe
It must have been a tough time for you. What job did you have to step down from?
Musk as I would great men like Madoff
Madoff was an out-and-out scammer, who never did any of the things he claimed to do. Musk is definitely guilty of promising things before he is able to deliver, but he has multiple companies that are actually getting things done. Nobody else can deliver stuff to space as cheaply as SpaceX can. Nobody else has cars as advanced as Tesla.
So, your comparison makes total sense to me. Of course Musk is equally credible to Madoff! +1 Insightful!!!
Cameras cost money. Servers cost money. Transmitting data cost money. Tesla is upload gigabytes of data from some drivers, daily.
I'm afraid I'm not clever enough to follow your thread here. Cameras cost money, and therefore... what?
And Tesla is running the LTE radio for hours, daily, uploading data from some drivers? ("gigabytes" of data... 2 GB at LTE upload speeds would take over 11 hours) How do you know this? In fact, why should I even believe you?
They really need to be transparent and state exactly how the data is used. If Tesla is going to be Facebook they should at least be honest about it.
I have no objection to Tesla being made to be transparent about what data they collect and what they do with it. They have already shared some details in blog posts, but something more formal would be fine with me.
Unlike you, I trust Tesla so far. Someone could become famous and rich by successfully leaking evidence of Tesla doing something nefarious; if Tesla really is doing something bad, they haven't been caught yet. Either they are really good at being evil, or else maybe we can trust them after all.
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Enough high level people have left Elon's companies that if an iota of the shit claimed were actually true, we'd have heard and seen evidence of it long ago. Conspiracy theory all you want, but it's a fact that secrets are hard to keep beyond just a couple of people, and these things would have required hundreds of them.
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Hey, but Musk gave people the absurd and unrealistic idea that Tesla stock would be over $420.
Oh, wait, no, the SEC is just a bag of dicks.
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Musk gave people the absurd and unrealistic idea that Tesla stock would be over $420.
Heh. Adjusted for the split, the current price is something like $3000, and the highest stock price seen to date was over $4000.
It does seem that Musk did not have any funding secured when he wrote "Funding secured" on Twitter, so I guess it's appropriate that the SEC slapped his wrist.
Ironically, Musk bought some Tesla stock [electrek.co] to make the company whole after the SEC fine, and the stock price shot up so much that he made a w
What criteria? (Score:2)
This implies advanced is good and states that Tesla is advanced. I'm not sure what your criteria are, but what I see Teslas doing seem to be more aesthetic choices (e.g. touchscreen controls) than useful.
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I said "Nobody else has cars as advanced as Tesla."
I'm not sure what your criteria are
Tesla cars are designed from the ground up as BEVs, and every component is on an Ethernet network and individually addressable... and the "MCU" computer ("media control unit" I think) can therefore control everything, and also therefore the Tesla phone app can.
And Tesla has over-the-air updates that add entire new features, which they can do because just by writing software they can turn on or off features of the car. An
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Ground-up BEV (Score:2)
An example of a new feature: "Dog Mode", where the car is locked but the aircon runs to keep the temperature comfortable and the MCU screen shows a message telling people that the pets inside the car are not being roasted alive. That was very simple for Tesla to add... is there any other electric car that even has the capability to add a simple feature like that?
Renault Zoé (and thus, I suspect, Nissan Leaf given that they run on the same platform, but I have zero experience with those).
Having a remotely controllable aircon/heating is actually a rather standard feature of "ground-up BEV" as it saves on the battery: better using the electricity while still plugged into the grid to pre-heat/pre-cool the car, rather than increase consumed kWh while the car is driving (even more so if the car needs to boost the aircon/heating during the first few minutes of driv
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First of all, thank you for taking the time to write a long reply to my posting.
I asked "is there any other electric car that even has the capability to add a simple feature like that?"
Renault Zoe (and thus, I suspect, Nissan Leaf given that they run on the same platform, but I have zero experience with those).
Do I understand correctly that you are claiming that the Zoe and the Leaf can have over-the-air software updates that add new features? If so, I am astonished.
I thought only Tesla had it, and VW is a
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You asked "does anyone else have anything close to the Tesla self-driving hardware suite?". They responded, and you're challenging the response by saying it isn't a BEV.
You asked if any other manufacturer could add a simple feature like "dog mode". They gave an answer, and you're challenging the response on the basis of whether a new feature like that could be deploy
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You need to either be more careful about your wording, or stop moving the goalposts when people give examples that challenge your assertions:
Or, I guess just not post on Slashdot. I already spend too much time writing my posts, and then something I thought was clear turns out not to be clear.
I hate when anyone moves the goalposts and I don't ever want to do it myself. But in this case I don't think I did. After I didn't find a Volvo BEV with self-driving I specifically said that I then moved on to consid
Re: Musk is credible (Score:2)
I think we are so burnt out on big companies, big business, big everything that we will rag on something not fully understanding what/who we are ragging on.
I've slipped up too in this manner from time to time.
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Tesla uses the cameras as part of its self driving car programme. The car runs beta software, pretending to drive and noting when its decisions differ from the driver's significantly. It also keeps an eye out for situations that cause error conditions and the like. When detected some data (Tesla won't say exactly what) is sent back to HQ.
That's why Tesla keeps claiming that it has millions of miles of test data in its programme. A bit misleading to say the least.
Anyway, the other way they monetize your car
Breaking!: (Score:1)
Cameras connected to the internet can be pwned! News at 11!
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I would be safe. I now work at a job where the speed limit between home and work never exceeds 45 mph.
That's what Huawei said... (Score:2)
> Elon Musk responded by saying that Tesla would be shut down if its cars were used to spy. ... but the US government banned them anyway.
I know which government I trust more, and it isn't the US one!
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Then you're a moron.
Insurance companies will LOVE it (Score:2)
What and why. (Score:2)
If drivers enable the cabin camera, Tesla says it will capture and share a video clip of the moments before a crash or automatic emergency braking (AEB) activation to help the automaker “develop future safety features and software enhancements,” according to Tesla’s website.
The privacy angle seems bullshit since it needs to be enabled. Honestly, it seems like the point of the camera is to cover Tesla's ass legally when an inattentive driver allows the autopilot feature to plow into something and sues.
Consumer Reports, on the other hand, is insisting that the camera be activated to monitor the driver's attention (which requires computational power) and Tesla isn't currently doing. It's not a bad idea but it makes me wonder why they are only making it an issue now.
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> why they are only making it an issue now.
because they don't like (they dont buy ads) Tesla.
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So the car is always watching but it only stores the video in the event of a crash or braking. NIce.
I guess the rest of the time is only streaming.
Toddler's pants changed in vehicle (Score:1)
So an baby, infant, or toddler having their pants changed in the vehicle and being filmed and recorded is ok?
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How would it be different if you were were in any other public place that happens to be video monitored?
Remember the ad for Jaguar in Crazy People? (Score:2)
Wow (Score:1)
>"Tesla's use of in-car cameras to record and transmit video footage of passengers to develop self-driving technology raises privacy concerns, influential U.S. magazine Consumer Reports said on Tuesday."
Really? Wow. We wouldn't have thought of that without Consumer Reports saying something. I know I would never think of being concerned about a camera staring at me while connected to a data network, doing things outside my control or knowledge. Or keeping track of where I am going all the time. Or mo
Their review downgraded autopilot for no camera (Score:1)
Consumer Reports ADAS Review [consumerreports.org]
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Tesla's system is cloud connected, that's what CR is complaining about. All the others have driver monitoring cameras that process the images onboard and warn the driver that way. No images are stored or transm
New invention. (Score:2)
I'm in the process of inventing a new kind of thick, rubbery, and opaque black tape that can not only make it easy to splice and insulate wires, but can be used to cover things like camera lenses to prevent this kind of spying. The world has never seen an invention like this before.
I am so glad I thought of this brand new wonderous 21st century invention. I already submitted my design to the patent office, and I'm sure I'll make millions when people get wind of how practical my new kind of tape is.
yees (Score:1)
Fixed it! (Score:1)
There, fixed it with a small square piece of PVC tape. The car doesn't seem to mind.
Big Data Collection (Score:2)
Even if I had the money to buy a Tesla, the Big Data Collection would put me off -- unless I can disable it.