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Germany To Let Citizens Store ID Cards On Smartphone (apnews.com) 95

Posted by BeauHD from the move-into-the-21st-century dept.
Germany says its citizens will be able to use smartphones to store their government-issued ID cards and prove their identity online. The Associated Press reports: The Interior Ministry said Wednesday that from this fall, citizens will be able to use the electronic ID stored in their smartphones together with a PIN number to prove they are who they claim to be when communicating with authorities or private businesses. Separately, the ministry said the Cabinet has agreed on a bill that will make government-generated data openly available to businesses and private individuals where possible, to spur the development of new applications.

Germans are frequently required to present credit card-sized cards featuring their photo and personal details, such as when applying for benefits, opening bank accounts or registering a vehicle. While there are already ways of doing this online, the physical card and a card reader are currently required.
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Germany To Let Citizens Store ID Cards On Smartphone More

Germany To Let Citizens Store ID Cards On Smartphone

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  • Sell more cell phones (Score:3)

    by linebackn ( 131821 ) on Thursday February 11, 2021 @08:34PM (#61054270)

    And the next step will be outright requiring cell phones because everyone loves their cell phone so darn much.

    • Re:Sell more cell phones (Score:5, Interesting)

      by NateFromMich ( 6359610 ) on Thursday February 11, 2021 @08:58PM (#61054336)

      And the next step will be outright requiring cell phones because everyone loves their cell phone so darn much.

      They aren't required now? Around here you have to call when you arrive at a lot of doctors and dentist offices before they'll even let you in.
      How would you do that without a cell phone?

      • Oh Nate you stupid, stupid man. (Score:2, Funny)

        by Anonymous Coward

        Have you not heard of a PAY PHONE? Duh! Just call from there.

        • I haven't seen a pay-phone downtown in almost a decade.... They just stopped being profitable a long time ago.

          • In that case send a telegram! Just go to your nearest telegraph office and a clerk will take down your message and get that telegram on its way. Your doctor should get in on the same day. Isn't technology wonderful?
          • According to Google, there are about 20 pay phones in London. Now how you would find one if you don't have a smartphone to look up the location, I have no idea.
          • The only payphones I've seen in the US in probably the last 10 years have been at airports and by the bathrooms in one particular shopping mall.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Misagon ( 1135 )

          Around here the company that owned the pay-phones was also a major cell provider so they discontinued the pay-phones to make more people get cell phones. That was fifteen years ago.
          Land-lines started to get discontinued ten years ago, and are now available only in major cities.

      • knock on the damn door, works great

      • "They aren't required now? Around here you have to call when you arrive at a lot of doctors and dentist offices before they'll even let you in."

        How cute, I do the very same in my home.

      • They aren't required now? Around here you have to call when you arrive at a lot of doctors and dentist offices before they'll even let you in. How would you do that without a cell phone?

        More and more I make it5 a point to leave my cell phone at home when I can, etc.

        I haven't found it holds me back from anything yet....and when I get to Dr.s office, most all still let me in just normally, it is just that they now schedule better so as not to have a waiting room filled with people.

        But I suppose if I had do

    • India does it already (Score:5, Informative)

      by junglee_iitk ( 651040 ) on Thursday February 11, 2021 @10:18PM (#61054536)

      Indian government provides a cloud based app called digilocker which holds your Driving license etc. It is legally permissible to present it in lieu of papers. I suppose good news from India normally doesn't reach west.

      • Re:India does it already (Score:5, Informative)

        by rnbc ( 174939 ) on Thursday February 11, 2021 @11:19PM (#61054652) Homepage

        Portugal does it already also, since two years ago. ID card, Driving License, and a few other documents, in a Android/IOS app. The app also generates QR codes traceable to a government online service so that another user of the app can verify the authenticity of the document in a centralized fashion, so it's basically impossible to falsify the document.

        • it's basically impossible to falsify the document. Until such a time as someone makes an app which screencaps the QR code and inserts falsified text and photo.

          • It's not complicated:

            1. Your app to government online service: Give me a one-time-code to view my ID.
            2. Government online service to you app: Here's a random one-time-code, valid for 10 minutes
            3. Your app to other app: Here's a QR of the code.
            4. Other app to government online service: Can I view the ID associated with this code?
            5. Government online service to other app: Here's the ID matching that code (including a photo).

            The UK uses a similar scheme for driving licenses, so car hire companies can check you

        • Re:India does it already (Score:4, Insightful)

          by cayenne8 ( 626475 ) on Friday February 12, 2021 @09:35AM (#61055750) Homepage Journal
          I have no desire to hand my phone over to government or law enforcement officials on a regular, voluntary basis....period.

          The reasons should be readily apparent.

      • I think Denmark introduced such a system 20 years ago. Germany is generally not on the forefront of new technology.

    • Comment removed based on user account deletion

    • The *azis had pieces of flair that they made the Jews wear.

  • What could possibly go wrong?!

    • Papers, please! Whole new level of Thought Police coming now that people can be positively identified online. You think China's Social Credit Score is bad, the Germans will take it to a whole new level.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by khchung ( 462899 )

      What could possibly go wrong?!

      The US could fall further behind the rest of the world, and become a place where tourists visit to experience how life was in the 20th century.

      • Well, given that life in the 20th Century was vastly superior to anything that the 21st has offered thus far, you just might be on to something.

    • Probably nothing. What goes wrong right now when people lose their ID cards? Also very little.

      • Probably nothing. What goes wrong right now when people lose their ID cards? Also very little.

        A solid point. My reluctance to climb on board with the E-ID (or, Apple's inevitable "iD") is based on the fact that it is stored on an Internet- connected device that contains known and unknown security holes. My wallet doesn't have any of those vulnerabilities. BTW, if you're reading this, Apple: I claim all rights to the moniker "iD", but I will sell them to you for a reasonable price ;-)

  • Wait people actually store personal (Score:3)

    by oldgraybeard ( 2939809 ) on Thursday February 11, 2021 @08:42PM (#61054296)
    stuff on cell phones they carry around? Guess my risk tolerance level is just a wee bit different.

    • You trust a piece of leather more than a small digital safe with encryption?

    • stuff on cell phones they carry around?

      My phone is password protected.
      My wallet is not.

      Guess my risk tolerance level is just a wee bit different.

      Carrying your physical ID is a far greater risk than carrying an easily replaceable password-protected photo of that ID.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Misagon ( 1135 )

        But how can you prove that the copy of your ID is a genuine ID?

        While you could use cryptography in both your phone and a ID reader connected to some server infrastructure, that would not work without a reader, or if the reader is off-line.

        A physical ID works off-line: it is hard to forge and has your photo, so that all that is require to verify it are a pair of human eyes (one eye would suffice, actually).

    • Of course, why not. Don't tell me you don't have an encrypted and locked cell phone...

      Next you're going to tell me you don't take your drivers license with you when driving because you're afraid you may lose it or be asked to see it by a police officer.

      • Yes I have an encrypted?(by whom, for whom) and lockable cell phone. It is a few years old and I have yet to install any 3rd party apps or use any of the default installed apps email, etc for anything I consider important.
        It is for me to use to make calls and texts, mostly just 2 factor auths and touching base with the wife. I rarely answer any incoming calls since they are mostly spam calls now. Irks the wife but my phone rarely makes it out of my brief case.
        BTW I am an Apple Developer(in addition to my

  • yah (Score:4, Informative)

    by hjf ( 703092 ) on Thursday February 11, 2021 @08:42PM (#61054298) Homepage

    Argentina has been doing this for a few years now. It's called "DNI Digital"

    But in Argentina you need to present your ID card (DNI) for any credit or debit card transaction (this is required by law), so we're used to carrying our ID card everywhere most of the time.

    • Argentina has been doing this for a few years now. It's called "DNI Digital"

      But in Argentina you need to present your ID card (DNI) for any credit or debit card transaction (this is required by law), so we're used to carrying our ID card everywhere most of the time.

      That sounds somewhat inconvenient. I assume you can still fill your car using your card, but you also have to scan your ID or something?

      • Re:yah (Score:5, Informative)

        by hjf ( 703092 ) on Thursday February 11, 2021 @09:28PM (#61054414) Homepage

        We neither self serve nor have readers integrated into pumps. An employee fills your tank then swipes your card in a standard credit card terminal. He takes a look at your ID and checks your name against the card, and checks for your photo. In practice this never happens. Many places don't care and will just take your card (especially a Maestro card which has a PIN anyways).

        The DNI was supposed to have a chip built into it that would have your bus card and all but i think it never materialized. For machine reading it has a PDF417 barcode at the front, and a MRZ at the back (the LAST>NAME >> FIRST > NAME >>>>>>> thing on passports). It doesn't have a magnetic band.

        The DNI, interestingly enough, is not a passport but it can act as one for most countries in south america. If I fly to Colombia, I don't need a passport. I just use my national ID card.

  • "Germany says its citizens will be able to use smartphones to store their government-issued ID cards and prove their identity online"

    Let me be the first to say that I see nothing that could possibly go wrong here, especially since we all know that phones are super-secure.

    • Let me be the first to say that I see nothing that could possibly go wrong here, especially since we all know that phones are super-secure.

      You're not the first. Americans have been living in the digital ID/payments dark ages for years under a shadow of irrational fear and paranoia. We've had digital ID and payments in Australia for years. Whatever boogeyman you're hiding from hasn't appeared here yet Digital is not fraud proof, but it's a lot less prone to fraud than analog.

    • Let me be the first to say that I see nothing that could possibly go wrong here, especially since we all know that phones are super-secure.

      You'd be right. Little to nothing goes wrong right now when people lose their IDs either. Though I'm sure you have some weird contrived idea that somehow an ID becomes more critical on account of being on the phone.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by v1 ( 525388 )

      Let me be the first to say that I see nothing that could possibly go wrong here, especially since we all know that phones are super-secure.

      My cell phone is a lot more secure than my wallet, where my ID currently resides.

      Here in Iowa anyway, we're already allowed to carry our proof of auto insurance on our phones.

      The only problem I see here is a lot of places want to see a "government issued photo id" to identify you personally, and storing it electronically on a device you control would seen to make it easi

      • to be loaded onto a phone app that is made by the phone manufacturer.

        I don't want any apps on my phone from the manufacturer! This is exactly what's wrong with this idea: it's the beginning of the end of the freedom to be different. Sure, we still have paper ID for now...

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by v1 ( 525388 )

          I don't want any apps on my phone from the manufacturer!

          uhh.... your phone already has dozens of "apps" on it by the manufacturer, along with running several hundred smaller programs they wrote running the background.

          • Why would you assume that? Just because you left your phone the way it came?

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by v1 ( 525388 )

              No assumptions necessary. You might be able to remove most of the regular apps the phone comes with (the ones you see on the main home screen) but some functions simply have no downloadable counterpart, such as the Settings apps for most phones.

              And it's basically impossible to get rid of most of the "apps" that are on the phone running in the background, unless you prefer to carry around a paperweight that can't do what it was made for. To demonstrate, delete even one of the wrong system files on your com

  • Last year when we (as a househld couple) renewed the car licensing, we found out that the printed paper for the car document licensing was no longer needed: there is an officially issued app (for android and iphone) that will receive and display the car papers. But, along with that, the same app calls the electronic drivers-license version. And the drivers license is an official ID around here, as any other, besides carrying the official numbers for other required documents.
    The app authentication is done t

  • smart, but, needs a slight change (Score:3)

    by WindBourne ( 631190 ) on Thursday February 11, 2021 @11:57PM (#61054716) Journal
    In particular, they need to give 2 PINS to the card owners. 1 is used for proving that they own it. The second appears to be correct, but notifies authorities that there is an issue. IOW, think of it as a discrete 911.

    • The second appears to be correct, but notifies authorities that there is an issue. IOW, think of it as a discrete 911.

      Distress codes have been tried before. They tend to result in too many false positives to be worthwhile.

    • Why? Do you think your current ID card has a magic "notify authorities that someone stole my wallet" function?

      Why do people constantly come up with massively contrived situations which have no basis in the current reality? You people watch way to many spy movies.

  • Dumb dumb dumb (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Stonefish ( 210962 ) on Friday February 12, 2021 @07:01AM (#61055336)

    Phones are just computers that you lug along with you. Relying upon them for a digital identity is dumb. Governments, if you want to do a good job use smartcards, no they're not sexy but they are more secure and can be accessed via a most smartphones. Digital identities on smartphones is all about surrendering your citizens identities to corporate entities who's sole motive is to provide a return to their shareholders.

  • just what an ID card is and what it is used for. Mostly because it gives me the opportunity to say - Why the hell did they think it was necessary to explain what an ID card is? Is there an even remote chance that any of their readers are unfamiliar with the concept?
  • "Do you have your papers?" is a lot more intimidating than "Do you have your cell phone?"
  • Don't you know you need to be able to identify yourself at all times? An orderly society is a well-functioning society. How are the police and your other social superiors supposed to know what orders to give you? How are they supposed to know whether you're authorized to be going where you're going? From the bread line to the transport line, it only makes sense to bring your documents with you.

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