To Avoid Prison For Leaving Bad Hotel Reviews Online, An American in Thailand Must Apologize (nytimes.com) 292
The New York Times reports:
He's very, very sorry. But the hotel in Thailand that threatened an American guest with prison for his bad reviews may end up with bigger regrets.
Wesley Barnes, the American guest, publicly apologized on Friday for his blunt online reviews of the Sea View Koh Chang resort in Thailand. In exchange, the hotel promised it would drop the complaint that led the authorities in Thailand to file criminal defamation charges against him. More than wounded pride was on the line. In Thailand, criminal defamation charges can result in a prison term of up to two years. Mr. Barnes had already spent two days in jail after his arrest on those charges last month before posting bail.
The question now for the Sea View resort — and for Thailand's tourism industry, which is struggling under the coronavirus travel freeze — is whether it can recover from the considerable damage its reputation has suffered by threatening Mr. Barnes with prison... Mr. Barnes struck a decidedly different tone on Friday, in a statement filled with stilted official language reminiscent of a forced confession. "All of the statements that I made are completely untrue," the statement said. "These reviews and comments were written out of anger and malice. Now, I, Mr. Barnes, have regretted my actions and would like to apologize to Sea View Koh Chang, and its staff."
As required by the settlement with the hotel, Mr. Barnes also sent the statement to news outlets that covered his case, including The New York Times. He apologized "for my repeatedly false and untrue statements/reviews made to maliciously defame Sea View Koh Chang...."
In his statement, Mr. Barnes expressed gratitude to the hotel for allowing him to avoid prison.
Wesley Barnes, the American guest, publicly apologized on Friday for his blunt online reviews of the Sea View Koh Chang resort in Thailand. In exchange, the hotel promised it would drop the complaint that led the authorities in Thailand to file criminal defamation charges against him. More than wounded pride was on the line. In Thailand, criminal defamation charges can result in a prison term of up to two years. Mr. Barnes had already spent two days in jail after his arrest on those charges last month before posting bail.
The question now for the Sea View resort — and for Thailand's tourism industry, which is struggling under the coronavirus travel freeze — is whether it can recover from the considerable damage its reputation has suffered by threatening Mr. Barnes with prison... Mr. Barnes struck a decidedly different tone on Friday, in a statement filled with stilted official language reminiscent of a forced confession. "All of the statements that I made are completely untrue," the statement said. "These reviews and comments were written out of anger and malice. Now, I, Mr. Barnes, have regretted my actions and would like to apologize to Sea View Koh Chang, and its staff."
As required by the settlement with the hotel, Mr. Barnes also sent the statement to news outlets that covered his case, including The New York Times. He apologized "for my repeatedly false and untrue statements/reviews made to maliciously defame Sea View Koh Chang...."
In his statement, Mr. Barnes expressed gratitude to the hotel for allowing him to avoid prison.
Thailand (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: Thailand (Score:2)
Re: Thailand (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, an amazing country... amazing that in the 21st century you can still be charged with lese majeste for insulting King Bumfuckyface VII of Thailand, or whatever old fuckface's name is.
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I'm afraid that the lack of such incidents is not an endorsement. The general reluctance of the roughly 50% of sex based tourists to Thailand to publish their reviews with their names associated with them makes following up on complaints in reviews awkward, as does the nominally illegal nature of such services. Since the sex trades constitution at least 10% of the Thailand economy, it's not merely tolerance. A great deal of it is economic self interest.
Re: Thailand (Score:5, Interesting)
If you travel there, you're bringing money into the economy and supporting the tourism industry. You're silently supporting these laws.
No thanks, I'll take my money elsewhere, there are many other places to visit.
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While I don't personally agree with the law, I find the "I don't want to visit your country unless I can insult your king whose name I don't even know and am too lazy to look up" attitude more absurd. I don't know about you, but when picking vacation spots, "must be able to insult reigning monarch" doesn't really rank as a selection criterion. Must be an American thing.
Re: Thailand (Score:2)
It's not about if YOU want to insult the king, it's about if you want your dollars to support a regime who suppresses it's own people insulting the king. I'll pass.
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The previous king, King Rama IX - Bhumibol Adulyadej - pardoned everyone who was convicted by that law.
However it is not in the might of the King to change the law, that is matter of the Parliament. Which neglected his wishes to remove that law. He expressed every year that this law has to be removed and supported his wish by pardoning everyone suffering from it.
The new king has more urgent matters to attend to.
BTW: when I enter Thailand I usually wear one of my King Rama IX shirts: "I was born under the re
Re: Thailand (Score:5, Informative)
Username checks out.
So, you expect them to put their username for the most outrageous, antidemocratic defamation laws in the world bar none [bbc.co.uk]? People have been given 60 year sentences for words. Proper due process is not applied [wikipedia.org]. If the Thai authorities did know the username and later used it to catch them in Thailand they would have no chance. You are a sick individual.
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It's all online so have a bot do it at regular intervals.
Re: Thailand (Score:4, Informative)
Re: Thailand (Score:4, Insightful)
The king of Thailand can lick my sweaty taint.
Re: Thailand (Score:2, Informative)
You misspelled âoerightâ
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It's Democrats who are giving Amy Coney Barrett a hard time because she's Catholic.
It's the right which is supporting Israel, and the left which is supporting Israel's enemies.
And on, and on, and on...
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"Very good Mr. peater, you may have one of your children back now..." Faceless Thai Government thug
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If you read the review, it goes well beyond a simple 'negative' review. He's suggested that managers and employees are engaged in inappropriate relationships, while offering no evidence of such, for starters. The hotel's response is, perhaps, extreme, but this is hardly the case of someone being pursued through the courts for simply saying something negative, as the story seems to suggest.
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In several of the United States libel and defamation laws also include the possibility of jail time.
Re:Thailand (Score:5, Interesting)
Every country has some quirky law or thing that can get you F'd for seemingly no reason depending on where you're from. From the Thai perspective, a false review can cost the hotel owner his livelihood and future earning potential .. that's almost like being robbed. I don't agree with it, but I'm saying they have a logic too. you might think all of our laws are logical, but some people from countries such as New Zealand might find prositution being illegal weird. Someone from India might think it's odd he's not allowed to keep a slave. (Reference: https://www.bbc.com/news/world... [bbc.com] )
Re:Thailand (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re:Thailand (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Thailand (Score:5, Insightful)
Had the review been truthful, that might be a reasonable assertion. Making bizarre claims about inappropriate sexual relationships between managers and employees simply because you're pissed about having to pay an uncorking fee goes well beyond that. The general rule of thumb for reviews (especially negative ones, which are more likely to be challenged) should always be to stick to the facts, and not to make inflammatory statements you can't back up. Had he limited his criticism to these points, it's doubtful they would have a basis for advancing a defamation suit.
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This, and why would one post negative reviews about a local business in a foreign country while one was still in that country? Naive.
Perhaps not so naive, if you go by western legal standards. People carry their moral/legal assumptions with them when they go abroad. Mostly, this is harmless. The locals get used to the ignorant foreigners. It appears that, in Thailand, defamation is viewed much more severely than a westerner would expect, on a par with robbery.
If this were treated as a civil case in a western court, it would not get as far as a hearing, because one negative review can hardly do any harm. But if defamation is a crime, whic
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Most countries have laws against defamation, although this usually only applies if the allegations can be proven to be untrue.
Re: Thailand (Score:2)
Here in Brazil we have both. The local law distinguishes between three levels of bad mouthing with differing levels of punishment.
The first is when you tell a false story about someone committing a crime.
The second is when you publicly divulge something damaging to the honor or reputation of another person, even if that isn't a crime, and even if it's true.
The third is when you demean another person to someone to a third party due to some kind of prejudice, for any reason whatsoever, even if only in private
Re: Thailand (Score:5, Informative)
Truth is no defence in defamation
That depends upon where you are from. In the USA, truth is an absolute defense. Here is a general overview.
http://www.dmlp.org/legal-guid... [dmlp.org]
btw, in USA law the word malice is not the dictionary definition. Here, Malice means you knew the statement was false and said it anyway.
In the USA, You can say/write anything about anyone so long as you can prove it is true.
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Re:Thailand (Score:5, Funny)
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Granted, the .0% horror stories are what make the headlines and what you hear about, but it still would seriously concern me to know that making a mistake or doing something that I would normally consider very minor could have huuuuge consequences does and make me afraid of going there.
With laws like "insulting the king" still on the books, the prosecutor has almost unchecked power to lock you up, regardless of what you do or don't do. When something unusual happens, your fate really can rest in the balanc
Re: Thailand (Score:3)
Or worse, the USA. I know of one person, a fellow countryman, who was arrested for indecent exposure after someone walking in his private backyard saw him naked inside his house. The matter was worsened because she was trespassing with her kid.
Okay, so it was in Alabamah. Still a shithole.
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Many countries have defamation laws, not just Thailand. The thing that makes Thailand unique is a harsher maximum penalty and the extent to which they're willing to apply it. The story suggests, somewhat disingenuously, that this person has been pursued because they left a 'negative' review, while the burden for defamation requires making statements that are untrue or which can not be corroborated. Had his review been something like "I had a negative experience because I didn't like the food" or "my shower
Re:Thailand (Score:4, Funny)
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The category of "Trumps opponents" includes George W. Bush, Mittens, John McCain's widow, and I think almost every General that served in this administration, George Will, David Frum . . .
Returning to the point of the article, I kinda wonder if our foreign service is currently so full of incompetent loyalists that they couldn't fix this before it reached the news. Or maybe they are still pissed that the President called them Thighland.
Has he left Thaliand yet? (Score:5, Informative)
As soon as he leaves Thailand, people should make sure to find everyplace this hotel is listed and leave a review describing these events (in as many languages as possible because I am sure they get tourists from Europe, China, and Japan) .
Re: Has he left Thaliand yet? (Score:5, Insightful)
I know they are, rhetorical question.
Re: Has he left Thaliand yet? (Score:5, Informative)
So looks like he was a total twat to start with, but still the laws in Thailand are pretty insane.
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I believe he has been living in Thailand for the last few years. So he did post his review from his home.
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Why not wait until you are done with your vacation to write a review, good or bad?
How long is his vacation? When reviewing something the best quality reviews are those that are done shortly after the experience when you still have an emotional attachment to the experience you just had.
Are people like this that addicted to the internet?
I take it you've never been on vacation? There's a lot of downtime. Sitting in a cab, at a bus stop, waiting on a train, waiting in a queue, goddam try going to an airport some time then accuse all the people around you of "internet addiction" simply because they prefer to fill their time with something pro
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Because it is fresh in your mind, and the hotel has an opportunity to correct the situation. Public reviews have gained responses at times when private complaints do not, especially when restaurant or hotel staff elect not to mention the matter to their manager or owner.
Re:Has he left Thaliand yet? (Score:5, Insightful)
As soon as he leaves Thailand, people should make sure to find everyplace this hotel is listed and leave a review describing these events (in as many languages as possible because I am sure they get tourists from Europe, China, and Japan) .
You should RTFA, because it throws a slightly different light on the situation.
So, first, he wasn't a tourist. He's working in Thailand. Maybe not for long though.
Apparently, the issue was a $16 "corkage fee" which is (I had to look this up) when a restaurant charges you for bringing in your own wine bottle. Note that this isn't unusual, nor is it a particularly large fee, comparatively speaking.
The dispute began when Barnes stayed at the resort in June and disagreed with staff who tried to charge a corkage fee for alcohol he and a friend had brought on to the premises.
He told the Guardian that he felt the hotel’s manager was aggressive.
Barnes later submitted negative reviews of the hotel online, including one that said the resort’s foreign management “treat the staff like slaves”. Barnes, however, maintains that the review, which compared the resort to “modern-day slavery”, was never published. He said he received an email from Tripadvisor stating “we cannot publish your contribution as it does not meet our review guidelines”.
Another review, which could be seen online on Tripadvisor, said staff “act like they don’t want anyone there”.
The resort said that it had initially tried to contact Barnes directly to resolve the matter, but took legal action because multiple reviews had been posted across different platforms, weeks apart.
I have a sneaking suspicion this guy got all pissy about this $16 charge, complained to the manager (who didn't back down), and wrote a bunch of reviews over the course of *weeks* on multiple platforms. So... yeah, he was definitely going after them, and may not have been entirely truthful with his accusations.
So, I'm not sure the story is as simple as "left bad review, got thrown in jail." Sorry, but I've seen too many Karens just blow up at the slightest provocation, and flat out lie in an attempt to get their petty revenge. Multiple reviews over *weeks*. "Modern-day slavery". WTF.
Of course, I'm not going to defend throwing a guy in jail for this. The hotel manager's mistake was escalating to "go to jail", which is going to automatically generate sympathy for the guy, especially in western nations, where this would be unthinkable. Basically, the Streisand effect in action.
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"Apparently, the issue was a $16 "corkage fee" which is (I had to look this up) when a restaurant charges you for bringing in your own wine bottle. Note that this isn't unusual, nor is it a particularly large fee, comparatively speaking."
$16 Corkage is pretty piss poor. You're in Thailand, you could probably buy 4 entire bottles of wine for that price.
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Wine is very expensive in Thailand, so not likely. But this was over a bottle of gin, not wine. Typically the corking fee will vary depending on the beverage, with stronger and more expensive beverages having higher fees.
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Reviews are opinions and not statements of fact, get over it. People right crap reviews for what ever reason, so be it, such is life, get over it. The pissy reviews are dead easy to pick up on, no one cares. Extorting a customer with prison because you did not like their review, well, you done screwed up right there. Do you know the customer is allowed to include being put in prison for two days, "AS PART OF THE REVIEW OF THE HOTEL", it was a part of his experience but as the review and it's consequence was
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Reviews are opinions and not statements of fact, get over it.
Reviews are supposed to be truthful statements.
People right crap reviews for what ever reason, so be it, such is life, get over it.
Not in countries where truth and honor actually matter. It's hard to understand for entitled Americans, though.
Re:Has he left Thaliand yet? (Score:5, Insightful)
Not in countries where truth and honor actually matter.
It was Thailand, not Japan.
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Extorting a customer with prison because you did not like their review, well, you done screwed up right there.
I agree.
However, reporting harassment and defamation by someone, in breach of your country's laws? That sounds quite reasonable.
One review is different to multiple reviews over a period of several weeks.
Re:Has he left Thaliand yet? (Score:5, Informative)
I'm not so sure the hotel manager's idea was to threaten jail time; he just wanted the bad reviews gone. After all his efforts to get them taken down failed, he wanted legal action, either to force the guy to take them down or to get the review platforms to do it, and filing defamation charges with the police would have been the next step. Again, not very different from how things work over here, and for a fact there have been companies here that threatened to file (an in a few cases actually filed) charges against negative reviewers. The real question is: why was the guy arrested? Is that how things generally go in Thailand, was this simply due to an overzealous public prosecutor or police chief, or did they actually intend to prosecute this to the full extent of the law? Thailand is generally extremely careful to present a friendly face to the tourists who are so important to their economy, and they usually go soft on minor infractions; this arrest makes little sense.
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No, the manager did back down and charged him nothing.
But with that said, US$16 can be a lot in Thailand depending on the resort you're in.
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Apparently, the issue was a $16 "corkage fee" which is (I had to look this up)
I'm curious, are corkage fees not a thing in America? If so it sounds like there are cultural expectation differences that led to this conflict.
In general if I bring my own alcohol to a restaurant I fully expect to pay a corkage fee, $15 is on the high side, but not excessive considering the general markup on wine that you buy in a restaurant.
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Most restaurants here in the US won't serve alcohol that the customer brings, so they have no corkage fees. The restaurants without licenses to serve beer or wine mostly do not want alcohol on their premises (such as fast casual chains, or the occasional religious objection). As a result, you rarely find a restaurant that has a corkage fee. I can only remember two that I've been to. Curiously, the second one was locally well-known for their bring-your-own-tequila margarita mixes.
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Oh interesting. But with the liquor license that is definitely a thing in countries where licensing is required as well. You cant consume alcohol on an unlicensed publicly accessible premises normally, though that isn't a thing in most of Europe where consumption is generally permitted.
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"I'm curious, are corkage fees not a thing in America?"
They are, but only in very fancy restaurants. Most simply don't allow you to bring your own food and drink of any sort. It's not surprising that someone not accustomed to dining at such places might not have heard of it.
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I'm curious, are corkage fees not a thing in America?
As other posters have written, high-end restaurants (as in, with Michelin stars) are fairly accustomed to wine aficionados who bring their own bottles, and they charge a corkage fee (presumably to make up for the lost profitability on alcohol sales). It can be above $100 at some places. I have a wealthy friend, and he also brings wine to medium-high-end restaurants (Michelin bib gourmand, say) asking upon arrival if they will let him drink it and what the corkage fee will be. They almost always say yes;
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"The hotel manager's mistake was escalating to "go to jail", which is going to automatically generate sympathy for the guy, especially in western nations, where this would be unthinkable."
Yeah, to be thrown in jail with no real crime and no due process i the US you have to be poor.
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The article says the manager did waive the corkage fee.
Also, the hotel didn't escalate to "go to jail." They filed a complaint and the guy was charged. If convicted, one possible penalty is jail. There are lots of places, including US states, where jail is a possible penalty for defamation.
The hotel probably should have ignored him, but the headlines are kind of misrepresenting what happened, and Slashdot, in it's usual fashion, is mostly jumping straight to frothing at the mouth.
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If the death penalty existed for neighbors that let their dogs shit on your yard, I'd... get a scoop, not a camera.
Death? Meh. Now, once it changes to public evisceration, then I'm all over that camera. Also, those assholes who park on the pavement.
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What would you think if the hotel said "we have been informed that people on popular websites have been asked to slander us even more as soon
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Do you have problems with reading? I did not say to leave a fake review. I said to explain what they did, which was they sent someone to jail for leaving a bad review. That's the truth, isn't it? People have the right to know that this is the type of hotel that will put people in jail if they say bad things about them. By the way, you slandered me when you said that I said to leave fake reviews. So anyway, if you think jail is appropriate for slander then please go to your local prison and ask if you can st
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Do you have problems with reading?
Doesn't that decribe 99% of the /. user base?
Scratch Thailand off the bucket list (Score:2)
I don't know if the tourist was an ass or if the hotel was really bad. I do know that if I had any intention of visiting Thailand I'd be seriously rethinking it.
What do they plan to do with the one visit only tourists that return to their home countries and then leave a bad review, a negative Facebook comment, or just tell their besties in person that hotel X is a disgusting cesspit with horrible staff? Try to extradite?
Re:Scratch Thailand off the bucket list (Score:4, Informative)
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Like most places, with Thailand you just need to know the rules. Losing face is a big deal in Thailand, and the guy was insensitive to that.
I think it's unfortunate for us that he avoided prison time. I wonder what his review of a Thai prison what have looked like.
Now, how do they punish you in Thailand for posting a bad review of a prison . . . ?
You're already in prison, so they can't threaten you with that.
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Now, how do they punish you in Thailand for posting a bad review of a prison . . . ?
Not if it is an accurate review. In case of a jail, I'd assume that a bad review is accurate. And I think Thailand would actually want you to give accurate reviews of their jails, so people try to stay out.
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Losing face is a big deal in Thailand, and the guy was insensitive to that
This guy was insensitive about a lot of things. Who brings alcohol into a restaurant and expects not to be charged a corkage fee?
This hotel is about to learn ... (Score:4, Interesting)
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I was also thinking the exact same thing. What if he returned to his home country and then somehow an updated review was posted?
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I hope the historian runs a full article on how stupid this guy is for leaving a negative review for the completely normal practice of charging corkage for bringing your own alcohol to a restaurant.
Streisand Effect is a thing, but also not a reason let morons get away with bad mouthing you. Plus unless we name this after the hotel I'm willing to bet that no one even remembers this in a year or so.
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Cultural Sensitivity, and Getting Really Drunk and (Score:5, Funny)
I try and avoid situations like this by studying the culture, and language, of a place before going there, and not getting really drunk and bringing my own bottle into a restaurant. It's always a good idea to have a local guide, that can help mitigate any problems you might encounter, especially those caused by getting really drunk and brining your own bottle into a restaurant. Additionally, if you can study the history of a place to determine if they have Draconian laws against things like profaning the king, public disrespect, drugs, and getting really drunk and bringing your own bottle into a restaurant, I've found it to be a great way to avoid problems. Since meeting my wife in Russia (not mail order bride) studying the Russian language, history, culture, and the fact that getting really drunk and bringing your own bottle into a restaurant is socially acceptable, my life has improved a lot.
okay, how about ... (Score:2)
I'm sorry your hotel was so bad I felt the need to leave a crappy review.
This is great! (Score:3)
I wish the US had stricter defamation laws. It would be great for society.
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Did he actually lie though? Or did he just say stuff that the place didn't like?
An American tourist leaving bad reviews? It pretty much always means that they behaved like assholes and got reprimanded. It's too bad that this kind of behavior is almost always rewarded in the US.
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At least in the US telling the truth is extremely strong protection against defamation charges.
You don't want to deal with a country where that isn't true if you post things that aren't positive.
Sure you may be able to make negative posts thousands of times, but it only takes one @$$%*&# to get you screwed to the extreme.
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I don't. I've been in countries that don't have the protections against abuse the US has, and it's abused in a big way.
What kind of "abuse"? Making people follow the clearly stated rules? Oh the horror.
At least in the US telling the truth is extremely strong protection against defamation charges.
In the US it's entirely legal to defame a restaurant (or any other business) and it's pretty much impossible to hold the reviewer accountable. The so-called "freedom of speech" means that it's perfectly fine.
This is absolutely not right. It reinforces the sense of entitlement and will eventually lead to societal collapse.
Fine. Apologize. Change the review to this. (Score:4, Funny)
Rookie move (Score:2)
The Yelp effect? (Score:3)
I wonder if we need to create some new name, like "the Yelp effect" for when a business, upon threatening an unhappy customer with PRISON, suffers a backlash from other potential customers.
This isn't based on anything other than gut feelings, upon reading the story, that this is a resort I would never, ever go to.
"If you have a bad time, keep it to yourself. If you tell anyone you will go to PRISON IN A FOREIGN COUNTRY." I mean, why even take the chance?
I'd like to go to Thailand some day, but when I talk to travel services, it would be in my best interest to say "yeah, that resort that threatened to send one of their customers to prison? Not that one."
Les Hotele (Score:2)
Who died and made the hotel owner king?
Resort statement & tourist's response (Score:2)
You can find here [twitter.com] the five-page statement of the resort and the tourist's answer to the hotel's statement.
"malice" (Score:5, Insightful)
Aside from the facts of the case (which are somewhat more complicated than the summary makes you think), I'm surprised his lawyers let him put the word "malice" into his forced confession. If they did, it was an explicit demand by the hotel. I wouldn't ever, ever admit to malice. If the government or the hotel decide to press charges anyways, they now have his public statement that he was acting intentionally, and with bad intentions. If it goes to court, for whatever reason, he just sank any chances he had of winning.
Re:"malice" (Score:5, Informative)
When I read the headlines, similar to the one on slashdot, I assumed it's some sort of tourist got in trouble in backwards/draconian law place. Something like Wesley narrowly escaping capital punishment for stepping on some flowers on an alien planet.
But, actually reading more about this specific case, you see that this was in no way a tourist, it's someone who lives and works in Thailand, knows the laws fine, but got in a grudge with the resort because they wanted to charge him $16 for bringing his own alcohol (they didn't in the end, as it was their right, but he did not like their tone). Then he started posting ridiculous reviews (note plural) to get back at the perceived slight. It was definitely "malice" and so obvious he would not have a chance of winning any court anyway.
This Is A Good Reminder for US Citizens (Score:2)
Something as simple as an angry Yelp review or a snarky Tweet can literally get you thrown into jail.
Appreciate your freedom here.
Easy to fix (Score:2)
Turning it into gold (Score:2)
I still like to know what he wrote, because that must have been a very thrilling review when it got the owners to threaten you with prison. The response by the hotel sure made his review into gold no matter how shitty it was.
Just how bad are the hotels (Score:2)
A similar thing happened to me in P.R. China (Score:2)
I only had to retract the review. I did find it funny that in the next book that the author, of the text that I was critical of, wrote, a chapter was devoted to me and another person in China who had been critical of his books.
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Provide video evidence of your alleged problems.
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Pulling out of the Trans-Pacific Partnership is something that will lead to the United States running a second-place game for decades. Quite simply, History may see that as the pivotal point in the US's decline and Chinas rise.