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Government Privacy

Snowden Warns Governments Are Using Coronavirus To Build 'The Architecture of Oppression' (vice.com) 107

Posted by BeauHD from the heed-thy-warning dept.
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Vice: Snowden is the first guest in the new 'Shelter in Place' series debuting on VICE TV on Thursday at 10 p.m. EST, which looks at the global response to COVID-19 and its lasting impact around the world. VICE co-founder Shane Smith will discuss these themes, as well as how to survive quarantine, with a host of thinkers from science, entertainment, economics, and journalism. In the premiere episode, Smith talks to Snowden, who blew the lid off of the National Security Agency's surveillance of the American people in 2012. In the interview conducted from Smith's home in Santa Monica over video chat, the two tackle topics including the lack of preparedness in the face of a global pandemic, how long this will be a threat to humanity, and whether the power we're handing to global leaders will come back and bite us in the ass.
[...]
It seems that [coronavirus] may be the greatest question of the modern era around civil liberties, around the right to privacy. Yet no one's asking this question. As authoritarianism spreads, as emergency laws proliferate, as we sacrifice our rights, we also sacrifice our capability to arrest the slide into a less liberal and less free world. Do you truly believe that when the first wave, this second wave, the 16th wave of the coronavirus is a long-forgotten memory, that these capabilities will not be kept? That these datasets will not be kept? No matter how it is being used, what' is being built is the architecture of oppression. Snowden said intelligence agencies knew a pandemic like this was coming "because they used to read the reports had been planning for pandemics."

Asked about if we can trust the numbers coming from China, Snowden says "I don't think we can," adding that autocratic regimes like China aren't doing things better than democratic ones. "I mean, there are arguments being made that China can do things that the United States can't. That doesn't mean that what these autocratic countries are doing is actually more effective."

You can watch Shane Smith's full interview with Snowden here.
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Snowden Warns Governments Are Using Coronavirus To Build 'The Architecture of Oppression' More

Snowden Warns Governments Are Using Coronavirus To Build 'The Architecture of Oppression'

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  • Patriot Act Permanently Took Some (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Vandil X ( 636030 ) on Friday April 10, 2020 @03:46PM (#59929874)
    We never got back some of our privacy and "freedom" after 9/11 and the Patriot Act, all for the sake of "terrorists will never use airplanes again!"

    I wonder how much we lose with COVID-19, all for the sake of "we'll be safe from future pandemics."

    • Re:Patriot Act Permanently Took Some (Score:5, Interesting)

      by tramp ( 68773 ) on Friday April 10, 2020 @03:53PM (#59929912)
      As an example Google and Apple teaming up for a Corona API to make detecting of nearby contacts easier will be part of this new infrastructure. Of course its use is only for "(future) pandemics" but the API will never disappear.

      • As an example Google and Apple teaming up for a Corona API to make detecting of nearby contacts easier will be part of this new infrastructure. Of course its use is only for "(future) pandemics" but the API will never disappear.

        The API won't be very useful for other tracking purposes. You should read about it: https://blog.google/documents/... [blog.google]

        • As an example Google and Apple teaming up for a Corona API to make detecting of nearby contacts easier will be part of this new infrastructure. Of course its use is only for "(future) pandemics" but the API will never disappear.

          The API won't be very useful for other tracking purposes. You should read about it: https://blog.google/documents/... [blog.google]

          More technical specifications linked from here: https://blog.google/inside-goo... [blog.google]

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by rtb61 ( 674572 )

          Yeah we aint fucking stupid, just wait until the next fucking update, more and more invasive each cycle. Could they have even sold windows anal probe 10, ten years ago or would a more aware public rebelled. Yeah, we know the sick anal retentive control freaks. Drop Google now, or have them control your live for ever.

          You temperature up or not, they have the control to decide whether it is or not, confine you to your home and cut you off from the internet, refuse and prison. That is not the life of a free pe

          • Yeah we aint fucking stupid, just wait until the next fucking update

            At least for Android, the core implementation will all be in AOSP. You'll be able to see exactly what it does.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by epine ( 68316 )

            You should check out the equally effective peer-to-peer oppression among the made men on The Sopranos. They're horrible shits to each other, and still find time for so much more to trickle down.

            And yet: dangerous and aggressive gun-toting young adult males (sheeple type A) continue to volunteer to become bottom-feeder wannabe "soldiers" in this sordid organization:

            Soldiers can earn a lot or they can earn a little, but the majority won't earn much because any money earned is passed up the tree. They will sti

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by AHuxley ( 892839 )
        Back with PRISM tech. For the NSA and medical use this time :)

      • The tracking technology has been in use for many years, but hidden in the shadows. Now it is coming out into the light. How society will respond remains to be seen.

    • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

      by fermion ( 181285 )
      Bush built the basis of all socialist oppression, a department of homeland security, and bribed all citizens with a socialist welfare check. Trump has the socialist welfare check coming, and has already Collectivization the farm with previous socialists checks to the farmers he likes, including the Brazilians. It just remains to be seen if he gets to form his personal security to protect him from the rest of us, the dreaded Proletariat.

      • Re:Patriot Act Permanently Took Some (Score:5, Interesting)

        by SirAstral ( 1349985 ) on Friday April 10, 2020 @05:00PM (#59930168)

        Bush only built one part of it, like everything else... the citizens just have been busy looking the other way for so long that each time something happens the "pussy ass american wimps" keep expecting government to make sure nothing bad can ever happen again.

        9/11 proved that Americans can be controlled through fear and terror. People are going to die, that is just life and there is nothing you can do to stop it. Because there is one simple rule... if a pandemic or terrorist plot is not going to kill you... your government will kill you under the guise of protecting you instead. There is evil in the world... and they are going to be killing people whether is is under the guise of fighting a foreign enemy or a domestic one.

        Governments of man have killed more people than all the pandemics, epidemics, and disasters of nature combined.

        • Everyone likes the free money, as long as they get some of it. So welfare is bad, because it's other poor people who don't deserve it, but the tax rebates are great because it goes to everyone as long as they're poor like me. It's all about branding.

        • 9/11 proved that Americans can be controlled through fear and terror.

          The human race knew that long before 9/11. In brief, you'll find throughout history that an authoritarian's playbook follows this pattern:

          1. Create (or exploit) fear, anger, or confusion in the populace.
          2. Point the finger at an external cause.
          3. Present yourself as the only solution to the problem.

          The parallel to current events is left as an exercise to the reader.

        • When future historians look back on the era that began with the Bushbama presidency, they will refer to the period as "the Terror".

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by lgw ( 121541 )

        Bush built the basis of all socialist oppression

        Well, Bush was surely a big government Republican, but he didn't write the PATRIOT act. John Kerry did. Kerry bragged about it on his election web site, proud of the accomplishment.

        So, the wonderful 2004 election was between two big-government establishment politicians who went to the same university at the same time, belonged to the same secrect society, got the same grades, and were basically interchangable.

        When the general election is between two establishment candidates, the voters have already lost.

    • There is a silver lining at least.

      We'll now be allowed to wear masks in public (outside of Halloween).

      • I plan on going tgo the drug stgore and getting some black construction board paper, rolling it up into a cone and putting it over my face.

        • I plan on going to the drug store and getting some black construction board paper, rolling it up into a cone and putting it over my face.

          Buy yourself a long cane too.

          It would suck if you had to call 911 for help because you can't see and can't find your way home anymore.

      • The mask thing is probabaly wrecking total havok on the AI face recognition programs.

        • On the contrary, it's providing the algorithms with another handy dataset of the same faces when they are trying to conceal their identity so will end up more effective than ever.
    • American's have been giving up their rights for YEARS before 9/11. It amazes me, they are ok with having their constitutional rights violated by the patriot act. One of the many reasons I refuse to fly anywhere. When this version of the flu came along, the one world order/globalist hit on an idea that if we make everyone shelter in place, we can destroy the economy, make everyone more dependent on government for their food/safety & security. Wreck the economy, scare the crap out of people too ignoran

    • I wonder how much we lose with COVID-19, all for the sake of "we'll be safe from future pandemics."

      That would be a bad argument, because tracking doesn't prevent *future* pandemics at all.
      - It's only useful while there is a pandemic in progress and you want to slow down the spread by tracing contact and quarantining only the exposed people instead of reaching the point where you lock down the whole country.

      And unlike the security theater show at airports, I think the average citizen *is* clearly able to understand that and would vote/petition (well at least in countries that have true democracies) for so

    • Quite right. But when Soviet Russia inflicted oppression people did not work as hard, productivity dived, shortages. But they did not have to worry much about fair elections. But USA has elections - for now - and they also need money for the deficit, and the rich stay on top RELATIVE to the rest. They keep this up, the Burnie set will get into power.

  • Building? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by SuperKendall ( 25149 ) on Friday April 10, 2020 @03:46PM (#59929880)

    They already had it all built. They are using the virus to give the oppression architecture a shakedown before full deployment.

    I have to say, I always felt a lot of sympathy for the police before. But seeing images of paddle boarders being arrested, pulling people off busses because they are not wearing masks... most of my goodwill towards state security has evaporated.

    Someone on Twitter said there are no libertarians in a pandemic, but I've become way more libertarian and intolerant of authority than I even was before.

    • Someone on Twitter said there are no libertarians in a pandemic, but I've become way more libertarian and intolerant of authority than I even was before.

      They don't have the same Facebook friends I do obviously

    • Re:Building? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by russotto ( 537200 ) on Friday April 10, 2020 @03:57PM (#59929934) Journal

      They already had it all built. They are using the virus to give the oppression architecture a shakedown before full deployment.

      Came here to say just that. The governors are having a ball, ordering people around. The cops, breaking people's faces for holding weddings or being (alone) in a park without a license, are overjoyed. And of course, from the public, thunderous applause.

      • If America survives this panic without losing our republic to dictatorship, we must implement drastic political reform. Never again must a handful of governors and officials be allowed to imprison the entire country. While it's _possible_ such extreme measures might be needed some day in the future, they should only be undertaken after a vote by the Congress and the state legislatures.

    • Stay home, asshole, this isn't about you.

    • ... because they are not wearing masks.

      This is the same behaviour as refusing all vaccinations. Somehow, I doubt you're so protective of anti-vaxers' rights to endanger their children and the rest of society. There are 2 differences: 1) The police do Something when they identify an arsehole denying medical advice for This disease; 2) Responsibility to the community and setting an example (of how to protect You), be dammed.

      ... intolerant of authority ...

      If you were, I would understand but that's not happening. You're saying those people behaving badly, have more rights

    • Although it's a shame it had to happen this way, I'm glad you've seen the truth about the law enforcer thugs who have long oppressed the American people. Hopefully you also can see that our kangaroo courts, the gulag, and the badlaws they brutally enforce are all one and the same.

      We must all join together in solidarity - across party lines, class lines, cultures, and ideologies - to end this prison state before we loose our republic to dictatorship. And to ensure that NEVER AGAIN can such a tyrannical state

  • Meh, Terrorism was working just fine (Score:5, Insightful)

    by rsilvergun ( 571051 ) on Friday April 10, 2020 @03:51PM (#59929900)
    COVID-19 doesn't even accelerate it all that much. The reason problem isn't individual disasters, it's the way inflation + stagnant wages creates a slow, steady decent into poverty for the middle class.

    The best way to oppress people is to keep them occupied with survival. You need a certain level of material wealth before freedom becomes an issue. Until then you're struggling so hard to stay afloat that it doesn't even come up in your thoughts.
    • You always post that inane crap, but prior to all of this real median income was at the highest point it had ever been. No doubt there's going to be another big dip just like after 2008, but the average person was doing better than they had at any point in U.S. history.
    • What economy are you describing? Pre-pandemic, US wages were increasing far faster than inflation. The last time wage growth was below the inflation rate was January 2017.

  • Maybe we will get a new Megadeth album out of it...

  • In the interview conducted from Smith's home in Santa Monica over video chat, the two tackle topics including the lack of preparedness in the face of a global pandemic, how long this will be a threat to humanity, and whether the power we're handing to global leaders will come back and bite us in the ass.

    *cough* [slashdot.org]

  • Things that we can't do (Score:5, Insightful)

    by hackingbear ( 988354 ) on Friday April 10, 2020 @04:14PM (#59929994)

    Asked about if we can trust the numbers coming from China, Snowden says "I don't think we can,"

    A response I read on the trustworthiness of the Chinese number:
    - if the Chinese number lies, we are doomed because even such restrictive measures can't stop the virus;
    - if the Chinese number is true, we are doomed because we can't implement such restrictive measures.

    adding that autocratic regimes like China aren't doing things better than democratic ones. "I mean, there are arguments being made that China can do things that the United States can't. That doesn't mean that what these autocratic countries are doing is actually more effective."

    For all my respects to Mr. Snowden, the real reasons that China can do things (these restrictive) are not their autocracy or authoritarianism or any other political reason, but because of the following systems that have been in China for long times:

    1. pervasive amount of private security personnel: if you go to China, you can every housing site, village, school, factory, office building, mall, subway station, and what not is guarded by uniformed people. No they aren't Chinese police but private security guards. Look, that's what authoritarian state has. No. Private security has been prevalent in China since the 1990s because property crimes were real problem there until a few years ago. It also has to do with relative cheap labor cost, so even poorer communities can pool together enough salary to hire private security. it's a market-oriented solution to a social problem. Now, in the days of an epidemic, those private security can provide effective access controls [thenextweb.com].
    2. the massive package and take-out delivery services: since the boom of mobile era, China has developed massive online shopping and restaurant take-out industry. The accompanying shipping services immediately fill in the role of last mile delivery of essential groceries [time.com] to the quarantined public. (The packages are typically delivered to the front entrance and the private guards will call the buyer to come down to pick it up, without physically interacting with the delivery guy.)
    3. mobile payment apps and pervasive QR code: these facilitate contact-free transactions end-to-end during the epidemic.
    4. freaking of the public: after SARS and bird flu, Chinese and other Asians have deep fear of viral epidemic, unlike that in US and Europe; and they understand well from their recent experiences that social distancing and wearing face masks are the effective and likely the only way to survive for individual.

    It's clear that Mr Snowden, like most Americans, have never actually lived in China and only got biased information from their western media outlets. China is mostly about practicality rather than politic.

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by Kjella ( 173770 )

      A response I read on the trustworthiness of the Chinese number:
      - if the Chinese number lies, we are doomed because even such restrictive measures can't stop the virus;
      - if the Chinese number is true, we are doomed because we can't implement such restrictive measures.

      It's time to forget about China. Really. There's plenty of other countries now that are past the peak, like for example here in Norway they now estimate the R = 0.7, in other worlds we can beat it down. But we've also had the most invasive measures since WW2, more or less stripping the country down to bare survival mode. The question now is what's the end game, if we snuff it out at massive expensive with 5-10% population immunity then what? If we restore normal social contact it'll just blossom up again at

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Zumbs ( 1241138 )
        South Korea is following a containment strategy, which appears to be working very well for them. Given how well Norway has corona virus under control, maybe that is the next step?

      • The obvious solution is a permanent military-medical state of emergency. Only then will we be able to crush the human spirit under the iron boot... er, sorry, I mean save ourselves from the Mexican Beer virus!

    • 1. pervasive amount of private security personnel: if you go to China, you can every housing site, village, school, factory, office building, mall, subway station, and what not is guarded by uniformed people. No they aren't Chinese police but private security guards. Look, that's what authoritarian state has. No.

      That your business is required to pay them for protection does not automatically imply that you are their boss, or change the fact that those uniformed personnel answer to the government, not private business.

      Strange that an autocratic government would be so successful at so many other types of control that other countries can't implement, and yet they're powerless to prevent property crime or hire police, leaving the glorious People to police themselves. It seems somewhat less likely than other, more obvio

    • Comment removed based on user account deletion

  • Oh really? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by jrbrtsn ( 103896 )

    I had the same thought myself. Only more specifc:

    his may sound conspiratorial, but please humor me long enough to read this post.

    Trump's endgame all along has been declaring nationwide martial law, because when this happens he will in effect become a dictator.

    Prior to this pandemic, the plan was to foment civil war for this purpose; thus the sabre rattling such as, "our side has things that go boom."

    With a pandemic in full swing, civil war will not be necessary. Instead, all he has to do is wait for condit

    • Re:Oh really? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by SirAstral ( 1349985 ) on Friday April 10, 2020 @05:12PM (#59930204)

      Seriously? We are no where near to a position where a President can use Martial law to stay in power. It was just as assinine when the conservatives were bitching about this stupidity when Obama was in power. Do you seriously think there are no loads of edge lords out there just waiting for a president to try something like this for real? If Trump actually tries to do anything like this you will find that his own base will be split asunder and he will have only succeeded in causing civil war. While I would not put the idea past a self entitled prick like Trump, if such a thing were possible, I don't think he is that fucking dumb. Congress loves its power too much, they would definitely remove any President if they tried this.

      There are still more than enough guns in the hands of people to make any sitting president seriously think about trying something like this. Not only would they be likely assassinated if congress failed to remove them but they would also lose 1/2 of their own military and states in the attempt. That is a lot of shit to consider before trying to take power like this considering the structure of the US government.

      • What if 1/2 the people think it's ok? I thought when "King" Obama was criticized for all his "illegal" actions, that it was stupid and incorrect. It's not likely that a constitutional scholar will do anything illegal because he knows how to "bend" the rules.

        With our current prez being a narcissist if not being a megalomaniac, we have someone who's only concept of the constitution is what some influencers on certain TV shows tell him. And, of course, every time someone uses "tricks", as Obama did, it is used

    • Trump's endgame all along has been declaring nationwide martial law, because when this happens he will in effect become a dictator.

      Why do we get this nonsense prediction with every president? Don't you remember predicting that it would happen with Bush?

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by lgw ( 121541 )

        Obama too! People were seriously predicting that Obama, the most milquetoast president in my lifetime, would not hand over power.

        • Clinton didn't go out easy; his staffers stole the W keys from all the White House keyboards before they left.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by lgw ( 121541 )

            Those W keys were clearly documented as feeling depressed, and chose to take their own lives by jumping off their keyboards.

    • Stopped reading after the third sentence. Stop the pretext of not wanting to sound like a conspiracy theorist when you reach conclusions based purely on speculation.

  • This is sensationalist nonsense. Even freedom-loving western governments have always had special powers for situations like this. Are there privacy issues that should be kept in mind? sure. Is that a reason to curtail emergency powers during a pandemic? no.

    We also already know that informing the public about why stay-at-home orders are necessary is MUCH more effective than trying to "force" them to do it. It is really startling how many people in the US don't understanding that citizens in a free socie

    • Comment removed based on user account deletion

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by AHuxley ( 892839 )
      That was to track the sick and find all who had contact with the sick.
      Like South Korea, Taiwan, Japan did as a gov to look after their own citizens.

      Western nations are using the private sector to push new brand of apps down on smartphones to track people under the cover of "health".
      Thats ad brands and US brands that are happy to work with and fully invest in Communist nations.
      Want a gov health worker tracking back over a sick citizens past?
      Big tech working with other big tech sharing citizens movement

    • Only a worldwide prison state will save us all from the Mexican Beer virus! IT'S PERFECTLY NORMAL!! Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeee3eeeeeee!

  • Businesses are under the thumb of government too (Score:4, Insightful)

    by vinn01 ( 178295 ) on Friday April 10, 2020 @04:49PM (#59930138)

    Aside from personal freedoms, the state and local governments are exercising enormous control over businesses. A lot of businesses are being given a death sentence, even those that could operate with masks, social distancing, and ever other current government recommendation.

    After things are supposed to "open up", we're going to see a lot of business that never open again.

    • I tried to keep my âoenon-essentialâ business open even though the Governor ordered businesses closed. I only allowed one customer in the store at a time and disinfected after each person left. People on social media found out I was open and threatened to call the police and health department. I see the same thing for anything people see where they think people are âoebreaking the rulesâ. A protest at the statehouse, I looked like people were still maintaining distance from each other, 2

      • TL;DR countries all over the world are turning into police states because of COVID-19, and the Internet enables its own citizens to replace Big Brother at no cost. All at the cost of a single-digit loss of lives averaged over the planet. Well played, NWO.

  • As they always say: (Score:3)

    by nospam007 ( 722110 ) * on Friday April 10, 2020 @05:18PM (#59930224)

    Never let a good crisis go to waste.

  • Snowden is far from wrong (Score:3)

    by Rick Schumann ( 4662797 ) on Friday April 10, 2020 @05:20PM (#59930232) Journal
    Once the open, pervasive tracking of everyday citizens is in place, it will never be stopped until everyone bands together and demands it be dismantled -- and even then they'll probably keep doing it on the sly. The only way we'll stop it on an individual basis is not carry any mobile phone, or at least put them in 'Airplane Mode', turn them 'off' completely (i.e. remove the battery), or put them in a mobile Faraday cage.

    Said this elsewhere, repeating it here: You will know we're all completely junglefucked when they make it a LAW that you have to own and carry a smartphone with you at all times. Beware of this. Small chance it can be stopped if they try it.

    In the meantime: consider getting rid of your smartphone. Get a cheap plastic dumbphone, or at least a smartphone with a removable battery. Then you can have some modicum of privacy while travelling.

    • No phone will let you have privacy. They can all be tracked via TDOA. And most old school phones can be longer be used since they don't support modern frequencies.

      • Blah blah blah same old FUD. Try tracking my $40 dumbphone when I pull the battery out of it. Also try tracking any phone when you don't take it with you everywhere.
    • Nobody will want it to stop, they will say âoeitâ(TM)s for the greater goodâ. They say itâ(TM)s to track criminals, you didnâ(TM)t commit any crimes did you? Are you trying to hide something? Itâ(TM)s for tracking the virus, see? Even if itâ(TM)s flat out spying on you, people are apathetic and lazy, well how else will I get on Facebook? What can you do?

  • ...with a host of thinkers from science, entertainment, economics, and journalism.

    Well one out of four isn't bad...

  • Hungary is the prime example... (Score:3)

    by ClarkMills ( 515300 ) on Friday April 10, 2020 @07:43PM (#59930724)

    From: https://www.theguardian.com/co... [theguardian.com]

    The Hungarian parliament, which has a two-thirds majority in favour of the prime minister, Viktor Orbán, passed a bill on Monday 30 March that extended his already strong powers. The bill, not supported by most opposition MPs, gives parliamentary authorisation to prolong the state of emergency the government declared on 11 March in light of the coronavirus pandemic. As a result, the few remaining checks and balances in Hungary will cease to exist, with the government ruling by decree with hardly any legal supervision. No elections and no rallies can be held. Hungary has become a textbook case of how coronavirus can be abused for authoritarian ends.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by AHuxley ( 892839 )
      Gov health care to find sick citizens and get the support they need is not what the brands is the West are suggesting.
      That normal emergency powers in Hungary.
      Find the sick, people who had contact with the sick.
      Ensure citizens in Hungary get masks, medical support and PPE as needed without the EU and other nations saying no.
      Normal emergency medical laws every normal advanced nation has to look after their own citizens.
      Re "no rallies " why would Hungary do what France, Italy and Spain allowed and let
  • Did he include Putin's Russia in his critique of the countries implementing or ratcheting up the "architecture of oppression"? Or just the west?

    • Do you have to specify that water is wet? I don't think anyone needs to be told that Russia, China or North Korea will jump to the occasion of implementing or ratcheting up the "architecture of oppression".

  • It's good to have your expert opinion and concern for civil liberties beamed all the way from the totalitarian state you're hiding away in.

  • As if he's some kind of expert on this? Sorry, nothing to see here.

  • Anyone else ever see the BBC series "Utopia"? Yeah, worse.

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