Oregon Engineer Proved Right About Traffic Lights (koin.com) 118
"Mats Järlström's emotions were clearly visible Friday morning. After years of arguing red light traffic cameras are flawed, the official Journal of the Institute of Transportation Engineers said he was right," reports a local news station in Portland, Oregon:
The ITE sets traffic policy recommendations for the United States — and they said cities should be using his formula. "It is a big deal," Järlström told KOIN 6 News. "It's the top."
Six years ago he tried to tell the Beaverton City Council there's a problem with its red light cameras. Then there was the State of Oregon, which fined him for practicing engineering without a license. He had to file a federal lawsuit to continue his research to prove drivers making turns at intersections often get caught in a dilemma when they're slowing down to make a turn and the yellow light isn't long enough.
Järlström said he used 8th-grade math skills to prove drivers have been getting tickets they can't avoid.
"It didn't take an engineering license to realize that the formula for traffic light timing was flawed," Järlström says on the Institute for Justice site. "I'm just glad that the ITE and the professional engineering community were willing to listen to an outsider, consider my work, and finally update their formula."
"The First Amendment protects Americans' right to speak regardless of whether they are right or wrong," said the Institute for Justice attorney who represented Järlström. "But in Mats's case, the ITE committee's decision suggests that he not only has a right to speak, but also, that he was right all along." The ITE's vote updates a 55-year-old equation, the site reports.
Järlström added, "We will never know how many Americans have received red light tickets for making perfectly safe right-hand turns."
Six years ago he tried to tell the Beaverton City Council there's a problem with its red light cameras. Then there was the State of Oregon, which fined him for practicing engineering without a license. He had to file a federal lawsuit to continue his research to prove drivers making turns at intersections often get caught in a dilemma when they're slowing down to make a turn and the yellow light isn't long enough.
Järlström said he used 8th-grade math skills to prove drivers have been getting tickets they can't avoid.
"It didn't take an engineering license to realize that the formula for traffic light timing was flawed," Järlström says on the Institute for Justice site. "I'm just glad that the ITE and the professional engineering community were willing to listen to an outsider, consider my work, and finally update their formula."
"The First Amendment protects Americans' right to speak regardless of whether they are right or wrong," said the Institute for Justice attorney who represented Järlström. "But in Mats's case, the ITE committee's decision suggests that he not only has a right to speak, but also, that he was right all along." The ITE's vote updates a 55-year-old equation, the site reports.
Järlström added, "We will never know how many Americans have received red light tickets for making perfectly safe right-hand turns."
Sound like something that would happen in China (Score:1, Flamebait)
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Re: Sound like something that would happen in Chin (Score:3)
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Re: Sound like something that would happen in Chi (Score:4, Informative)
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I see option 3:
#3 - Media are lying to you to influence the election.
But then you'd have to consider uncomfortable facts like the foreign ownership of various media empires and whether that constitutes 'foreign election interference'...
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: Sound like something that would happen in Chi (Score:3)
Re: Sound like something that would happen in Chin (Score:1)
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Well that's your mistake. Some uppity book-learnin' type just hanging around rubbing it in everyone's faces. The cops don't like your type, but don't often have an excuse to harass you.
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Back when he first got himself into trouble, he mailed the Engineering Board, the licensing authority, NOT the people in charge of traffic lights or having anything to do with them. Either he was trying to get fined by claiming to be an engineer or he's an idiot. It doesn't
Re:Sound like something that would happen in China (Score:5, Insightful)
In almost every state, you can not represent yourself as a Professional Engineer without a license.
He never claimed to be a PE. He said he was an "engineer". He has a degree in engineering. Most degreed engineers are not PEs.
It is the same reason that medical workers can only represent themselves as Doctor or Nurse Practitioner when they have a license.
It is more like a nurse practitioner claiming to be a nurse, and being fined for not being an RN.
Re:Sound like something that would happen in China (Score:5, Informative)
In almost every state, you can not represent yourself as a Professional Engineer without a license.
He never claimed to be a PE. He said he was an "engineer". He has a degree in engineering. Most degreed engineers are not PEs.
Full disclosure: I have an engineering degree but am not a PE. That is true, and you do not need a PE to practice engineering, in most cases a PE adds noting to your value. If you have to certify work, however, most places require a PE. I've done plenty of engineering work without a PE. I think in his case the fine was a bunch of political BS as he was not certifying some piece of work nor was there a contractual agreement where he claimed to be an engineer or PE. IMHO, he was merely pointing out his educational qualifications, as any engineer could and should be able to do. They government was just pissed he found a flaw in their revenue scheme and wanted him to go away.
It is the same reason that medical workers can only represent themselves as Doctor or Nurse Practitioner when they have a license.
It is more like a nurse practitioner claiming to be a nurse, and being fined for not being an RN.
I believe an RN is a requirement for becoming an NP, as an NP is an advanced degree for registered nurses. Anecdotally, all the NMPs I've klnpwn are also RN's and often used RN, NP (and a specialty of they had one) as an official title.
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I believe an RN is a requirement for becoming an NP, as an NP is an advanced degree for registered nurses.
Sorry, I confused "Nurse Practitioner" with "Practical Nurse".
Today I learned that they are totally different qualifications.
Obviously I don't work in the medical field.
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Er, his degree is in computer engineering. He's as much an engineer as a chiropractor is a doctor.
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I always found it odd he's called "conductor"---no orchestra would follow his lead!
Oregon government: He could not say "engineer". (Score:2)
Shocking that had to go to court!!
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There are three issues hre. The first is the idea that we may not have optimal traffic signal timing. This is obvious to anyone who drives, that such optimal timing is difficult and often non intuitive. When they put trains in my city, it took years to fine tune the signals, and it is ongoing. Right turns are something else that we can disagree on. What is safe is a ma
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The third is the idea of an engineer. This is a non trivial issue because we really can't hav people with no training going around and saying buildings are safe and the like. If someone says buildings are safe, then there has to be some consequence if they are wrong, like losing their license.
That should be skewed that way by design. While it makes sense that only a registered engineer can say "this building is safe", there should be no such restriction on the opposite, that is, there should not be a restriction on saying it's unsafe because you don't have the right ticket.
Re: Sound like something that would happen in Chin (Score:2)
Cash register justice (Score:5, Insightful)
The cameras ought to be unconstitutional as you can't cross examine your accuser.
Maybe some common sense coming in Illinois
https://www.illinoispolicy.org... [illinoispolicy.org]
Where I am it's a tax on the poor (Score:5, Interesting)
Where I mostly saw them is in the poor and lower middle class neighborhoods. Lots of 'em where I live. But if you stay on the freeways and in the ritzy parts of town you're safe from them (and most forms of "Broken Windows" policing...).
Re: Where I am it's a tax on the poor (Score:2)
Which is weird because in my youth; every night would be a local gang competition to see how many cameras would be spray painted blind. Flip that business case upside down and shove that maintenance cost back up the ladder.
They're stupidly profitable (Score:2)
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Where I mostly saw them is in the poor and lower middle class neighborhoods.
You mean, where the population is densest and the intersections busiest? Wow who would be so diabolical as to think to put them there...
Re:Where I am it's a tax on the poor (Score:4, Insightful)
> and most forms of "Broken Windows" policing...
I don't know where you are from. Where I am from that is not true. I grew up in a city that was one of the safest in the nation for its population size. It was considered upper-middle class and snobbish (which is why I left). The local police were all in on broken windows theory, if you were out after 9pm you were going to be pulled over and searched. Resist in the slightest and you'd be in cuffs. Anything 'suspicious' and you'd have a gun pointed at you from the start. When they decide to cuff you its going to be rough no matter how much you cooperate and how polite, you will have bruises. When you didn't get your legs 'should width apart' well enough that steel toe to the ankle really hurts. When you interlock your fingers behind your head and then they squeeze your fingers together it really hurts. When they hit your wrists with the cuffs it hurts, when they squeeze them on super tight it hurts. Somehow I was never arrested or even cited, just harassed. I hate cops to this day.
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Dear Dumb Ass, we have traffic speed cameras on freeways in Oregon in areas where there is problem speeding, but there aren't many freeway areas like that because they're already patrolled by the State Police.
But note that we don't have traffic signals on freeways, so we don't have red light cameras there.
There are less in rich neighborhoods because high traffic areas have reduced land value. Rich people live a few blocks over.
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Dear Dumb Ass, we have traffic speed cameras on freeways in Oregon in areas where there is problem speeding, but there aren't many freeway areas like that because they're already patrolled by the State Police.
But note that we don't have traffic signals on freeways, so we don't have red light cameras there.
There are less in rich neighborhoods because high traffic areas have reduced land value. Rich people live a few blocks over.
The ones in Pennsylvania might be used to determine speed, but it wouldn't be all that easy, they are up pretty high and oon the side of the road, so they aren't even placed in a good spot for recording plates. So if someone is in an accident, they could do the forensic work, but mostly it is traffic monitoring, not enforcement.
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I don't live in Portland, they might have a few speed cameras in places in the metro area, but in the rest of the State I've only ever seen one fixed speed camera; on a rural section of Highway 99, somewhat near to a city and airport, that had decades of problems with rural teenagers racing (and crashing) at night. You have to go something like +15 to get hit by it, though; most drivers here do +5 in the city, +8 highway.
But the Dept. of Transportation has hundreds (thousands?) of traffic cameras that are u
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Broken Windows policing is a huge load of bullshit.
Until it applies to misconduct by police, it's just more examples of the police preying on the poor.
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>"Broken Windows policing is a huge load of bullshit."
No it isn't. People here seem to be redefining what it is. It means increased enforcement of minor laws to prevent criminals from escalating and keeping things clean and in good condition so as not to normalize or attract bad (law breaking) behavior. And it works.
It does not mean police brutality, stop and frisk, being impolite, passing crappy laws, "zero tolerance", etc. Those are something else, entirely. It might sometimes happen at the same t
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Nice strawman you have there. You impute a definition of broken windows that I did not state and then criticised it.
If increased enforcement of minor laws is a benefit to society, why does this not apply to enforcement of laws and rules that govern police behaviour? Police violate procedures, people die as a result and there are no consequences for the police who violated those rules. That's what needs to change.
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>"If increased enforcement of minor laws is a benefit to society, why does this not apply to enforcement of laws and rules that govern police behaviour?"
It does
>"Police violate procedures, people die as a result and there are no consequences for the police who violated those rules. That's what needs to change."
Agreed
The legal definition of a thing (Score:2)
By and large "Broken Windows" policing was (and is) used to harass the poor and keep them in their place.
I've told this story before, but at my old place (lower working class neighborhood, old military housing from the 70s) there were crack houses just up the street with crime galore, but they never once bothered me or anyone in my cul-de-sac. Why? Because if they did the cops would come in and bust everybody. Since pot was illegal and since most poor folk smoked it to
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Honestly, I think wage depression is a long-term effect of Reaganomics. Trickle-down didn't work, yet many of the policies remained. Here we are, ouch.
> https://www.commondreams.org/v... [commondreams.org]
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There's really not much evidence it works at all. While NYC did see a crime drop through the 1990s and had broken-windows policing, pretty much everywhere saw the same crime drop at the same time regardless of any such policies or not.
If they map the type of policing against drops in violent crime, the correlation is basically nil. However, when they map lead pollution (lead poisoning causes brain damage) against rise and falls in crime rates, there is quite a strong correlation. Much stronger than policing
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... much less lead exposure *as children* that should read. The cohort coming of age around the late 1980s/early 1990s had the highest lead exposure of any cohort, since they were in the womb/babies at the peak of consumption and right before lead in gasoline was banned.
General overview
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
A couple of research citations
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/p... [nih.gov]
https://www.brookings.edu/blog... [brookings.edu]
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Correlation is not causation. We also have the rise of video games. Perhaps staying home to play GTA or Pokemon makes it much harder to commit crimes in real life.
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You are an idiot. "Broken Windows" is the justification for all of the bullshit. The entire theory is based on BS study where they had to create the right conditions because those conditions were not be created in a natural way. Its a boat load of confirmation bias. Upkeep is great for the community, a link between upkeep and crime is dubious at best.
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>"You are an idiot. "
Personal attacks lend nothing to your credibility. Just shows intolerance to those who don't share your opinions and that you value emotion over reason.
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Fair enough. Point taken.
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>"Fair enough. Point taken."
Well, my assertions are only based on things I have read, my life experience, and logical presumptions. They very well could be incorrect in this matter. But it doesn't make me an idiot even if I am wrong.
Your willingness to post back something nice lets me (and everyone else) know you are far better than many on Slashdot. Thanks.
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https://prodimage.images-bn.co... [images-bn.com]
Re: Where I am it's a tax on the poor (Score:1)
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Once in a while I'd have to venture into the rich part of town for a doctor's visit or something. I didn't find the Cameras in well do to neighborhoods. Stay at home moms have the time and resources to petition the city and get them removed. You won't find them on the Freeways either. States tried that and since it affects everybody it got pull fast.
Here in Pennsylvania there are traffic cams all over the interstates. Mostly in dangerous places to catch accidents or other real problems, no nefarious reasons or money making schemes.
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That's just stupid and moronic, it is like you went to law school on AM radio... oh, you did, you're repeating the lowest grade of right wing moron-points.
The accuser in Oregon is always the State.
And if you rub a couple brain cells and think really hard, you might find that it is more Just than the old system of charging anybody who a member of the public said something bad about. Yeah, if you did that you'd have to really examine the accuser closely. But if that isn't allowed, the need is reduced, the lik
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The engineers program the traffic camera, the camera does not have agency, and does not decide to accuse you. Duh.
Did the engineers also shorten the yellow lights? When caught and embarrassed by news coverage, were they also the ones that shortened green lights to 1 or 2 seconds? Because that's what happened around here.
You're like those sheltered snowflakes who say 'if you don't want a ticket, don't speed' because you're the right race and affluence that you've never been driving the speed limit and cited for 11 or more over, with a bonus 'changing lanes without a turn signal' or 'failing to come to a complete stop'
Re: Cash register justice (Score:1)
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You also guilty without actual evidence that you were operating the vehicle and you cannot be held liable for other peopleâ(TM)s actions.
In some places it's like a parking ticket. The owner of the vehicle is liable for an administrative fee and not charged points on their license. That is used to get around the need to prove it was the owner who committed the violation. Same thing with toll violations; although some plates simply use toll by tag and send you the bill for the toll plus an administrative fee of a few dollars rather than make it a penalty.
Re: Cash register justice (Score:4, Informative)
In Taiwan the registered owner is obligated to either pay the ticket or report who was actually driving their car. A lot of people seem to bitch about traffic tickets, but if they weren't breaking the law to start with it wouldn't be a problem. In this day and age too many people are always in too much of a damn hurry.
You can think about it like this, you are being held responsible for the action of lending your car to someone else. If you don't want to pay the ticket, tell them who you lent it to, and maybe next time think twice about lending your car to someone who's going to speed or run red lights.
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That's not every town, and my quote would apply there, it's people of good conscious remaining silent about their representatives shortening yellow lights, which is a different issue. They should be fighting the city to use actual science for setting a safe duration for yellow lights and kicking those out who try to push for a shorter duration. On the other hand having a longer duration people then assume they have longer to run the yellow light, and these camera's can ticket those people. With an obligatio
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You also guilty without actual evidence that you were operating the vehicle and you cannot be held liable for other peopleâ(TM)s actions.
People routinely go to jail for years for other people's actions under "joint enterprise" laws in at least the US and the UK. You can e.g. go away for murder despite not being at the crime scene or having encouraged (or even knowing about) the murder.
Many jurisdictions do not care much about who does what, as long as someone is punished.
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The cameras ought to be unconstitutional as you can't cross examine your accuser.
Maybe some common sense coming in Illinois https://www.illinoispolicy.org... [illinoispolicy.org]
Perhaps, but some jurisdictions made it an administrative fee to try to get around that. The way to kill the moneystream would be for each person to fight it in front of an administrative hearing and then try appealing to a court. Where I lived you could request an administrative hearing and there was no hearing cost.
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I think red light cameras can be used to solve real problems; I also think they can be used to generate revenue with just a veneer of legitimacy.
I received a red light camera ticket in the mail at my home address, sent to me by the good folks in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. The picture supplied with the ticket showed a Ford Explorer or Excursion with a California plate running the red light. A "Corporal Anderson" certified that he had reviewed the ticket and it was a good bust. (Apparently this review/certifi
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Common Sense Prevails. (Score:4, Interesting)
This is unfortunately the ONLY time in my life I've seen it prevail.
Usually it leads to criminal charges...
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This story is about Oregon.
Common sense prevails all the time, we have Direct Democracy. The reason that this guy had to take such a long road to win a battle with a few petty officials is that the situation is so small, the people affected so few; only a couple cities in the State even have these cameras, and they're only in a few places. They represent a really tiny number of the tickets issued, and mostly only in high traffic areas in Portland where most citizens want increased rules enforcement, aka tic
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Wouldn't it be fun to force the states where this have been practiced to go back through all the fines issued for this and be forced to pay them back?
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No, it would be stupid, and it is highly unlikely.
Over $1 billion for Illinois and DC (Score:1)
AAA Report: DC issued $1B in parking, traffic tickets over 3 years [wusa9.com]
Red-light cameras in Illinois have amassed over $1 billion in revenue since 2008, according to an Illinois Policy Institute study. [illinoispolicy.org]
Re: Over $1 billion for Illinois and DC (Score:4, Interesting)
Yup, and this is what he was really fighting about. How the people's hard earned cash should not be swindled out from them. And the swindlers were more than happy to throw the book at him to keep their cash flows.
What he showed is actually fairly simple and most of us have come to the same conclusion. He did an amazing job proving it. While that is no small feat, I think the bigger story is his perseverance against the goliaths. I am sure he would agree.
Technically right (Score:5, Insightful)
There is right and there is technically right. Technically right is the best right. That the wonderful thing about math. It lets you be technically right without having to have a college degree. It simply is. That being said, this whole thing never should have had to go this far. The local government was obviously trying to protect a revenue stream instead of focusing on safety.
The entire saga was absurd and I should hope that a very large number of people will get their unjustified tickets reversed and their fines restored. The standard should be reflected nationwide, perhaps internationally. There is absolutely no question that other jurisdictions use stop lights that are timed too short in order to increase revenue.
Safety should be the only consideration and red light cameras should be removed. As memory serves independent traffic studies have shown that they range from having negative effects on traffic safety to mixed at best. All they cameras do is cause the driver to focus on not getting a ticket instead of the road.
The entire precedent of automated law enforcement paired with revenue generation needs to be banned. It is big brother at best and sets the stage for a dystopian society where many other social behaviors are also enforced with automated systems. In China these systems enforce everything from spitting jaywalking and even school behavior.
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"Technically right" is where you're actually wrong about your main point, which is usually implied, but your statement in support of it is narrowly correct, but probably in a different way than you intended.
It is not nearly as good as being "actually right." And math won't help that.
Re:Technically right (Score:4, Informative)
"Technically right" is where you're actually wrong about your main point, which is usually implied, but your statement in support of it is narrowly correct, but probably in a different way than you intended.
It is not nearly as good as being "actually right." And math won't help that.
Perhaps Oregon is immune to the inherent problem with red light cams, but I doubt it.
When used as a revenue stream - and they usually end up that way - the programming of the cameras and lights has a direct and calculable relationship with expected revenue. Considering that raising taxes is political death in many places, the temptation is often irresistible.
We had some talk about running traffic light cams here in Pennsylvania. I told peopel and the powers that be that it would also be a cure for tailgating. When asked why, I told them that the only defense against the inevitable shortening of yellow lights and programming zero tolerance into the system was for drivers to see the light turn yellow, than come to a full panic stop. This got some concerned looks from insurance people as something they once thought was a good idea turned out to involve substantial outlay for the radical increase in rear ending accidents.
"Correct" is correct, and using traffic cams to generate revenue is unethical due to the virtually irresistble corruption involved.
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There is a whole pile of assumptions that are necessary for your claims. And most of them are false in most contexts.
Traffic tickets themselves are money losers in most situations. Just the coast of running the courts to process them all costs money.
Many States with shitty rules create perverse incentives, where the money from the ticket goes to the police, but the money to pay for the administration comes from the Court budget. So it appears to the cops as a revenue source, even though it is actually an ex
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There is right and there is technically right. Technically right is the best right. That the wonderful thing about math. It lets you be technically right without having to have a college degree. It simply is.
Nto quite. The math could be 100% correct but if the premise is wrong you still aren't correct. It's like the old joke about the kid running to his dad and saying he saw sister and her boyfriend in the hayloft taking off their pants; they're going to pee on the hay. The dad says "Your facts are right but your conclusion is wrong."
Speaking the truth is rarely appreciated (Score:4, Insightful)
Can't access the article from the EU (Score:3)
Site header:
Our European visitors are important to us.
which proves to be bullshit by the exact next statement:
This site is currently unavailable to visitors from the European Economic Area while we work to ensure your data is protected in accordance with applicable EU laws.
Kudos "KOIN 6". I mean, understandable, you make too much from selling your user data and the small proportion of EU visitors does not make it worth the expense of serving them in a different way, but at least refrain from posting that obvious bullshit.
At least we can read the ij.org article.
ITE Journal (Score:5, Informative)
The ITE journal has a good explanation of the equation etc: https://www.nxtbook.com/ygsrep... [nxtbook.com]
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Aww, the EU ex-post-facto legal/exortion scheme ends up with you getting cut off? What a surprising event, which no one could have predicted! Aside from *absolutely everyone*, that is.
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Aww, the EU ex-post-facto legal/exortion scheme ends up with you getting cut off? What a surprising event, which no one could have predicted! Aside from *absolutely everyone*, that is.
Clearly, you don’t know what ex post facto means.
Hint: you wanted extraterritorial jurisdiction.
And the US did it first with FATCA.
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No. I said what I meant. The "law" in question was written to make previously established business practice illegal, allowing them to then "tax" or "fine" someone for violating this newly-invented law - after the fact.
The predictable response to this is to simply block access so that they cannot be fined, and maybe figure it out later, or not.
That's what going to happen with the other "fines", if the EU pushes it too far - as soon as the fines get big enough, access will be deni
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Eh, do you have any idea what you are talking about? The GDPR is quite a consumer-friendly regulation. Businesses that were not cavalier about the data of their customers were not affected by it in the slightest. I know from experience, the company I work for has millions of users but always had reasonable practices in place, so when GDPR came it was the simplest thing for us to comply - we added a function to provide a user with the data we had on him and a function to delete him completely, it was about a
No shit, sherlock (Score:2)
As he said, it's 8th grade math. Anybody who can count can see it.
But I like the headline ("Oregon Engineer"). Since the State of Oregon tried to claim he wasn't an engineer (despite successfully making his living that way). He who builds is a builder. He who engineers, is an engineer. So there, Oregon!
A new law is like a nice new wood chisel. (Score:2)
A wood chisel exists to do things like cut a fine mortise-and-tenon joint. That won't stop an idiot from using it to open a paint can or a sociopath from stabbing someone with it.
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A wood chisel exists to do things like cut a fine mortise-and-tenon joint. That won't stop an idiot from using it to open a paint can or a sociopath from stabbing someone with it.
Everyone knows you use a pair of pliers to open a paint can.
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I'd say that except in cases of self-defense that stabbing someone with a wood chisel is an act of social deviance. Think of the other people who have to use that chisel.
Hmmm (Score:2)
As we say, "More power to his elbow.", however now he's won this after years of fighting, can you imagine how he will feeling next Monday morning with absolutely nothing to get him up and out of bed? Totally devoid of anything to shoot for now, what's he going to do? Sometimes I'm happy being a simple nothing and nobody, I get up our of bed to make money to pay my bills, a little joy when my lunchtime cookie tastes good but pretty mundane life. Changing the world for the better just seems like a gigantic an
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What you're describing is called depression.
It's not flawed (Score:5, Informative)
It creates the revenue it's supposed to create, works as designed.
Stop light camera companies know this already (Score:4, Insightful)
Wish there is a way to prove how wrong it is to have private prison companies. Taking liberty away from a citizen of America is a serious thing, must be done with utmost solemnity, without absolutely no profit motive for anyone. Private Prison industry is wrong.
Being right vs. producing revenue (Score:2)
States using traffic light cameras don't care about being _right_. Traffic light cameras were never about safety, they were always about money, from the beginning. Thankfully, many states have already outlawed these cameras.
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Here in Oregon, only pathetic little boys are afraid to show emotion.
There is no credibility problem here. Nothing "bad" happened. He fucking won, asshole, let him enjoy it.
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Here in Oregon, only pathetic little boys are afraid to show emotion.
There is no credibility problem here. Nothing "bad" happened. He fucking won, asshole, let him enjoy it.
Whoa! Are you having a bad day or something?
But since you are in Oregon, how do you deal with Hams? We do engineering all the time. And many aren't engineers at all.
Re: Mats Järlström's emotions? (Score:1)
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Pretty sure they are smoked and eaten as any good ham should be.
With some good mustard and maybe a slice of aged Swiss.
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More likely with some sort of red sauce and sharp cheddar out here, actually.
But you'll quickly find that a lot of us don't eat red meat, and we'll be looking around for the Tofurky "ham." You did prepare something for us, too, right??
Never heard of needing an engineer for a ham, though. I doubt that is really a thing, even in whatever fancy place you're from. A turducken, maybe, or at least I've heard it said, "that's too much engineering for my dinner."
Re:Wrong (Score:4, Interesting)
A solid yellow traffic signal does not mean slow down. It does not mean to proceed with caution. It means STOP unless you cannot stop safely. If you are slowing down to make a right hand turn when the light turns yellow, then you are capable of stopping safely.
Yes, and there's a graphic [koin.com] in TFA [koin.com] that addresses this. I think the problem is that (a) often people try to make the yellow / beat the red when they should actually stop and (b) the yellow is too short (probably on purpose) and people in the "dilemma zone" (see graphic) get caught by that. I believe it's the "b" case this guy is addressing with his updated math.
Re: (Score:2)
It means STOP unless you cannot stop safely.
This is not true in all states, it varies from state to state.
Re: (Score:2)
It does not mean to proceed with caution.
That may be true in your state, but it is definitely true in mine.
Re: (Score:2)
It does not mean to proceed with caution.
That may be true in your state, but it is definitely true in mine.
Sorry... it definitely means proceed with caution in my state.
Re: Right hand turns (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
If it weren't for professional qualifications and engineering accreditation, planes would be crashing every day of the week instead of being the safest form of transport on the planet, and you wouldn't be able to trust any product at all.
While I agree that professional accreditation is important in some circumstances, you do not need a PE to practice aeronautical engineering and design planes.