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Forbes Criticizes Airbnb 'Surveillance Bugs To Make Sure Guests Behave' (vice.com) 72

"So this is creepy," writes a Forbes cybersecurity reporter, saying Airbnb "has put aside the stories of hosts secretly spying on guests" to promote a new line of devices Forbes calls "surveillance bugs to make sure guests behave."

Vice reports: As part of its "party prevention" campaign, the home-sharing service is offering discounts on devices designed to alert hosts when there's an irregular level of noise in their homes... An email I received on Thursday from Airbnb (I've occasionally rented out my apartment) told me to "plan ahead to protect your home from unauthorized parties" and offered special discounts on "three of the top party prevention devices." The devices with the discounts range in price from $52 to $265.

Websites for the three devices state that they monitor homes 24/7, can alert homeowners if anything unusual appears to be happening, and note that they don't record audio.... "[T]he devices detect issues in real time, keeping your property safe and your relationship with neighbors strong, all while protecting your guests' privacy," the email from Airbnb said. Airbnb stipulates that hosts must make guests aware that their homes are equipped with the noise surveillance devices — a policy that was reiterated to me by an Airbnb spokesman...

Evan Greer, deputy director of Fight for the Future, an U.S. organization that advocates for digital rights, said the party prevention campaign speaks to a broader trend of living under constant surveillance. "Certainly a device that only measures an increase in noise is better than having internet-connected surveillance cameras or listening devices in your home," she said.

"But we're hurtling toward a world where almost everything we own is monitoring us in some way, and I'm not sure that's actually going to be a safer world."

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Forbes Criticizes Airbnb 'Surveillance Bugs To Make Sure Guests Behave'

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  • Who knew? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by quonset ( 4839537 ) on Sunday February 23, 2020 @09:21PM (#59759014)

    Apparently the author is unaware that protection of your property might be a good idea. It's why hotels, and businesses in general, have cameras to see who is doing what around the property.

    Then again, if you're dumb enough to "rent" your house/apartment to strangers, while leaving your pets there, you probably don't care about your place to begin with.

    • Re:Who knew? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by b0s0z0ku ( 752509 ) on Sunday February 23, 2020 @09:26PM (#59759024)
      Hotels are not allowed to put cameras in the rooms themselves, though...
      • Re:Who knew? (Score:4, Informative)

        by quonset ( 4839537 ) on Sunday February 23, 2020 @09:39PM (#59759048)

        True, which is why I left that part out. They can, and do, have cameras everywhere else to see what's going on at their place. Which would be no different than someone having a camera in their place. In fact, since it is your place, you can put cameras wherever you want, including your own bedroom or bathroom. So long as you inform people, there is no issue.

        • by sjames ( 1099 )

          If you have rented the whole house out as a suite, where would that everywhere else be?

          • Everywhere you inform your tenants (in advance) that the cameras are.

            • by sjames ( 1099 )

              Since that may represent a substantial reduction in value, you'll need to do that up front when the potential guest is looking for somewhere to stay in order for it to not be a bait and switch. Be careful not to become an accidental child pornographer. Perhaps if you're that worried about it, putting your place on Airbnb is not for you.

        • by bsolar ( 1176767 )

          No, if you rent your place to someone else that someone else becomes effectively a tenant, which has an expectation of privacy which you as a landlord cannot infringe even if you own the place. The wish of the landlord to enact surveillance needs to be balanced against the right of the tenant for privacy.

          E.g. a landlord in general can place surveillance cameras in "common areas" like shared laundries or hallways, but not in "private areas" like living rooms, bedrooms, bathrooms etc...

          Also note that what's w

          • by bsolar ( 1176767 )
            Also, from AirBnB (emphasis mine): https://www.airbnb.com/help/ar... [airbnb.com]

            Our Standards & Expectations require that all members of the Airbnb community respect each other’s privacy. More specifically, we require hosts to disclose all security cameras and other recording devices in their listings, and we prohibit any security cameras and other recording devices that are in or that observe the interior of certain private spaces (such as bedrooms and bathrooms), regardless of whether they’ve been disclosed.

            This applies to a wide range of devices:

            Any mechanism that can be used to capture or transmit audio, video, or still images is considered a surveillance device. This includes, but is not limited to, things like Wi-Fi cameras (for example, Nest Cam or Dropcam), nanny cameras, web cameras in computer monitors, baby monitors, mounted or installed surveillance systems, decibel and device monitors, and smart phones with video and/or audio recording capabilities.

        • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

          Hotels and other commercial room rental services have special rules to abide by. I don't know what they are in your jurisdiction but around here cameras inside the room are illegal even if you inform the guests.

      • Hotels are not allowed to put cameras in the rooms themselves, though...

        Not allowed by whom? Are there federal laws? State laws? Which country or countries? I'd be particularly interested in what the situation is in the U.S.. I'm not aware of a federal law along these lines, but I could be wrong. Does anyone have any details?

        • Re:Who knew? (Score:5, Informative)

          by hey! ( 33014 ) on Monday February 24, 2020 @12:57AM (#59759466) Homepage Journal

          Intrusion of solitude is a common law tort [harvard.edu] that involves violating your reasonable expectation of privacy in places like your home, public restrooms, store changing rooms, or hotel rooms. You don't have an expectation that people can't see you in a hotel corridor or elevator, but you *do* in the room when you have the door closed.

      • by Anonymous Coward

        Hotels are not allowed to put cameras in the rooms themselves, though...

        Just go to DEFCON in Vegas where your room is tossed every 24 hours, they steal things, try to use your computer, etc. but never notice the legal handgun you locked in the room safe.

      • Forget the cameras, hotels have wired smoke detectors in your room. Some airplanes even have cigarette smoke detectors in the bathroom. The gall!

        • Forget the cameras, hotels have wired smoke detectors in your room. Some airplanes even have cigarette smoke detectors in the bathroom. The gall!

          Those are some pretty typical places to place a surveillance camera.

      • Most of the laws cover audio, not video. From what I can tell 13 states have laws that cover video, but only if it's not disclosed. So no hidden cameras, but they could put a camera in the toilet if they put up a sign. They might run afoul of anti-pornography laws if they posted it online or sold tapes though, but there seems to be surprisingly little protections.

        As near as I can tell Hotels don't do it because it's not worth the bad press. I could be wrong though, I only did a cursory Google search, bu
    • So long as there is a big red warning at the top of the Airbnb listing: "WARNING, NAZI-OWNED PREMISES, CAMERAS SPY ON YOUR EVERYWHERE". Needless to say, I would never stay there.

      And just in case you're thinking, "oh, they don't care about you, nerd!" I stay more than 150 nights/year in (mostly) Airbnbs around the world. I AM their target market.

      • by rtb61 ( 674572 )

        What makes you think, there are not already a whole bunch of places that do that already, extortion material, how likely, definitely a high percentage, probably up near 10 percent and the idea will spread. After all those who rent out properties are in it for the money and you never know who you might catch, what password you might see typed on a note book or any other naughty action, people talking shite about all sorts of stuff when they think they are in private. A hotel would get hit with more damage an

    • Apparently the author is unaware that protection of your property might be a good idea. It's why hotels, and businesses in general, have cameras to see who is doing what around the property.

      Then again, if you're dumb enough to "rent" your house/apartment to strangers, while leaving your pets there, you probably don't care about your place to begin with.

      I saw a video purporting to be an AirBnB camera showing a woman ummm, bringing herself great pleasure. Now of course, who knows, but it was definitely surveillance IR camera.

      And the ease with which the IoT cams can be hacked leads me to give at least some credence to the claim. After all, AirBnB people can be just as creepy as your average voyeur, and the security rationale will have those that might be tempted to put a camera over the bed to be sure the guest is behaving or something to give in to the t

    • by fermion ( 181285 )
      There is an expected level of privacy. In some places it is none. Traditionally in lodging there is a high level of privacy. Just look at the backlash of Ring sharing data with a warrentbb

      AirBNB competes with traditional places on price, and one of the cost saving is externalities risks to the consumer. A hotel will have insurance and lawyers to deal with the party weekend. They will not put cameras in the bedroom that we so often hear about at AirBNB.

    • Apparently the author is also unaware that the government requires 24/7 surveillance. My home has had smoke surveillance devices for decades.

  • by b0s0z0ku ( 752509 ) on Sunday February 23, 2020 @09:28PM (#59759028)

    The name of the device is Minut. It has to be installed exposed to actually sense noise. Sounds like nothing a few layers of bubble wrap can't fix. Clear enough to fool any optical sensors, but should block sound nicely...

    Save the world, break the rules.

    • In a way it's ironic (but not really) to see a "Progressive" company pushing "party prevention". I'm waiting for their new advertising slogan: "Airbnb. FUN IS PROHIBITED."

    • They can focus on low frequencies (and vibration) easily enough though. You will have a harder time isolating that...

    • Put one of the devices in a locked closet. That's it. Problem solved.

      One reason to get such a device is to be informed of the noise level before the neighbors get involved.

  • Stayed in one place, not AirBnB, that noted that they had chemical sensors to detect harmful solvents. What they really meant was that they'd detect if you were renting the place to cook meth.
    • For realz? What kind of hell hole was that? I've never even heard of such sensors.. tho it hadn't ought to be surprising they exist.

      • Yeah, for realz. Not a hell hole -- fabulous apartment, they had a system that I think was from MethMinder [methminder.co.nz]
        • Maybe I'm just out of touch with the meth cooking world... But isn't that stuff usually done in basements in the ghetto 'burbs? Not in a "fabulous apartment"? Sounds like maybe the landlord there was a bit... you know... paranoid.

          • by lgw ( 121541 )

            It can be a valuable business, so people get really creative in trying to hide it. Any kind of space you can name, someone's tried to cook meth there. And probably burned the place down, if they were there long enough - it's a landlord's nightmare. Stuff from Breaking Bad like cooking in houses tented for termites was all taken from police records - the writers weren't that clever.

            • It's worse than that. Buildings often had to be condemned and torn down because they were too contaminated from all of the fumes meth-cooking causes. I don't know if renting a "fabulous apartment" and cooking meth there during a weekend would be enough render the place forever uninhabitable, but I wouldn't want that happening in my unit. I'm sure the landlord would be absolutely livid if the entire building had to come down because the contamination was indeed irreversible.

          • Maybe I'm just out of touch with the meth cooking world... But isn't that stuff usually done in basements in the ghetto 'burbs? Not in a "fabulous apartment"? Sounds like maybe the landlord there was a bit... you know... paranoid.

            Maybe thats what makes the fabulous apartment prime location for it. People aren' going to look there. Extra points if it's over the road from a police station.

          • Meth can be cooked up in the trunk of a car, so yeah the "fabulous apartment" can become a meth-lab. "Hmmm, since we used a fake (or stolen) identity to rent the place, let's take a few mementos before we leave. That 70 inch TV looks really nice....."

        • by gweihir ( 88907 )

          Yeah, for realz. Not a hell hole -- fabulous apartment, they had a system that I think was from MethMinder [methminder.co.nz]

          Ah, somebody profits from causing fear. Makes sense then.

    • by gweihir ( 88907 )

      Seriously? Those behind the "war on drugs" have a lot to answer for...

      • "Seriously? Those behind the "war on drugs" have a lot to answer for..."

          Caviar tonight, sir? Oh yeah, they are already answering a lot of those types of questions. And I am not even talking about the cartels.

  • Waiting for the cops to start showing up on loud snoring sleepers just trying to get some rest.

  • by Anonymous Coward

    I don't want strangers and transients in my neighborhood. We have zoning laws for good reason. We shouldn't allow this shit. I wish the IRS would go in and get a list of all the users and send them a nice big tax bill and a deep audit, plus send that list to state and local authorities so they can collect their taxes also. You need a ride and a room? Take a cab to a hotel!

    • Get off my lawn, you damned tourists!

    • We have a few of these around here. So we wind up with people throwing loud parties in the middle of the night often in the backyard with loud music, drunk idiots trying to walk into my house in the middle of the night, idiots in other peoples' back yards, cars parked all up and down the road... Walking into someone's house in Texas in the middle of the night -- I'm amazed nobody has been shot yet.
    • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • Hotels don't have these kinds of concerns, but short-term home rentals do; unlike hotels, individuals don't sign on for dealing with damaged neighbour relations, things broken, or walls dented, and they don't have the ability to easily offset one room with many more to let averages make things all right. They're living there. So I think it's reasonable to have some precautions (so long as guests are told about them and it's clear that tampering will result in them getting the boot immediately).

    (I'm not fan

    • actually hotels DO have these kinds of concerns too which is why many of them have security passes for elevators and cameras everywhere...what you thought those were just for your safety? realistically this seems all quite reasonable, though I still struggle to fathom someone wanting to airbnb etc, the risk is just so high.,
      • by jabuzz ( 182671 )

        Because the potential rewards are high. Next year the Open comes to St. Andrews in Scotland. That means one could put their house on AirBnB for the duration, say about 10 days allowing for day to two either side. I could reasonably expect to get at least 2000GBP for my house which is a sleeps 4, about 6 miles as the crow files from the old course and under 100m from a bus stop with a direct bus into St. Andrews (you *really* don't want to try and drive). Closer in and larger properties you can get more, *mu

  • You know it's not going to get any better. The only thing you can change is your attitude, and I like my attitude just as it is.
  • > "But we're hurtling toward a world where almost everything we own is monitoring us in some way, and I'm not sure that's actually going to be a safer world."

    But in this case they DON'T own it, they're renting it and don't give a fuck if it gets trashed. It's certainly going to be safer for the actual owners.
  • AirBNB has become so overused in some places that it has depleted the supply of low-cost rental rooms for the service workers needed in heavily visited locales. The "party house" problem inhibits absentee owners from renting through AirBNB, and knowing that normal tenant/hotel guest surveillance rules don't apply reduces the number of people who will use the service.

  • by mrwireless ( 1056688 ) on Monday February 24, 2020 @05:55AM (#59760012)

    I am a privacy designer, and work on the Candle project (a privacy friendly smart home) what was mentioned here on Slashdot a few months ago.

    From my perspective, I have mixed feelings. There are two situations to look at:

    A.
    If these devices replace hidden surveillance devices, and their presence is clearly communicated to visitors, then this can improve privacy. The maker of Minut explains how all processing happens on-device, and no sensitive data is transmitted to the internet. That's good design in my book. It may lower the use of (hidden) cameras and microphones.

    B.
    It may lower the bar to installing surveillance devices for ethical people who previously disliked the idea of spying on their visitors. This could increase the spread of surveillance culture in general, where we watch and feel watched all the time. This is what the article rightfully warns about.

    Whether this development is a net positive depends on how you value these aspects.

    Personally, I agree with the article that this is a dubious development in general. While it may limit unwanted behaviour in the short term, we also know that in the long term developing a surveillance society will impact our general sense of freedom and willingness to trust strangers. That's the paradox of these systems: in the short run they claim to increase and mediate trust between people - after all, you are now letting a stranger in your home. But in the long run they may lower people's willingness to take a chance on strangers if there is no (rating) system to mediate the interaction.

  • "But we're hurtling toward a world where almost everything we own is monitoring us in some way, and I'm not sure that's actually going to be a safer world."

    that is correct, however in this case, you don't own the airbnb place, you are renting it.

  • by m0rphy ( 6519316 )
    There are certain areas in our life that need to be completely shielded and protected from the potentially harmful effects of technology - that's why we have human rights and not every use of technologies is positive just for the sake of innovation, just like you don't automatically become friends with everyone you meet just for the sake of being friendly, but probably with only selective few who are truly compatible with your values. Once you let this trend slip in no matter how small it may begin with, th
  • Or maybe it never made sense to rent your house to strangers, without having the infrastructure, staff, experience, etc. of a hotel or apartment complex.
  • by DriveDog ( 822962 ) on Monday February 24, 2020 @01:35PM (#59761690)
    Just keeping track of what's going on outside will cover 95% of such concerns. Count the number of times the doors open, how long they stay open, photograph the street in front of the house every minute, photograph the outside of the house... basically be a nosy neighbor and record what the neighbors can see from outside. Then you'll also have evidence of attempted burglars and the like as well. Presumably partiers don't just tesseract into the house.
  • This is no more creepy than the CCTV system at the local Kwik-E-Mart with signs that say "Smile! You're on camera."

      I wouldn't even think of turning my home into an "AirBnB", as you can find horror stories by the hundreds with a simple web search. People don't know how to act right, and you would be a fool to NOT have your home under surveillance if you are into this AirBnB gig.

  • As an Airbnb host, this seems like a very reasonable step. Airbnb's system of keeping track of the host's opinions of guests ex-post-facto works well but doesn't help when the problem is ongoing (and neighbor's complaints are legitimate).

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