Jury Sides With Elon Musk, Rejects $190M Defamation Claim Over Tweet (reuters.com) 101
Aighearach (Slashdot reader #97,333) shared this story from Reuters:
Tesla Inc boss Elon Musk emerged victorious on Friday from a closely watched defamation trial as a federal court jury swiftly rejected the $190 million claim brought against him by a British cave explorer who Musk had branded a "pedo guy" on Twitter. The unanimous verdict by a panel of five women and three men was returned after roughly 45 minutes of deliberation on the fourth day of Musk's trial.
Legal experts believe it was the first major defamation lawsuit brought by a private individual over remarks on Twitter to be decided by a jury... The jury's decision signals a higher legal threshold for challenging potentially libelous Twitter comments, said L. Lin Wood, the high-profile trial lawyer who led the legal team for the plaintiff, Vernon Unsworth... Other lawyers specializing in defamation agreed the verdict reflects how the freewheeling nature of social media has altered understandings of what distinguishes libel punishable in court from casual rhetoric and hyperbole protected as free speech.
Musk, 48, who had testified during the first two days of the trial in his own defense and returned to court on Friday to hear closing arguments, exited the courtroom after the verdict and said: "My faith in humanity is restored."
Legal experts believe it was the first major defamation lawsuit brought by a private individual over remarks on Twitter to be decided by a jury... The jury's decision signals a higher legal threshold for challenging potentially libelous Twitter comments, said L. Lin Wood, the high-profile trial lawyer who led the legal team for the plaintiff, Vernon Unsworth... Other lawyers specializing in defamation agreed the verdict reflects how the freewheeling nature of social media has altered understandings of what distinguishes libel punishable in court from casual rhetoric and hyperbole protected as free speech.
Musk, 48, who had testified during the first two days of the trial in his own defense and returned to court on Friday to hear closing arguments, exited the courtroom after the verdict and said: "My faith in humanity is restored."
The status Quoe (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The status Quoe (Score:5, Insightful)
Musk calls you a pedo to millions of potential employers... is immune to prosecution. The injustice system at work.
Probably an accurate decision. "He said something bad about me" is not actionable. What makes a defamation actionable is not merely that a statement is false and defamatory, but also (1) people believe it, resulting in (2) quantifiable monetary damage.
I don't think he proved either of these.
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It's hardly a brilliant test case. The guy also defamed Musk by claiming that his minisub was just a stunt when it was pretty obviously the best attempt to make something reasonable in a short time. It may or may not have worked for this exact situation, it might not have been useful in the particular rescue they did, but it was clearly something that could have been useful in a wider section of cave under deeper water in a situation where the kids might not have been able to cope with normal diving equip
Re:The status Quoe (Score:4, Insightful)
FFS, Musk's sub was no where near complete, and was too large to even enter the cave entrance. Musk showed up with his piece of crap half-made toy, took up space and took up time making his pointless PR, which did nothing but get in the way of the actual rescue attempt. Fact is, Musk was pulling a PR stunt and put those kids lives at additional risk by creating a sideshow at the site of a critical rescue operation where lives were on the line
Musk on the other hand, called this guy a pedophile in front of his legion of followers, and instead of simply apologizing, hired people to investigate the diver to try to prove he was a pedophile (which failed) -- he literally went to lengths to dig up dirt on this guy to defame him. And it seems all of this is A O fucking K. Frankly, I am disturbed by the decent into fascism and wealth worship this world is falling to -- it's fucking sickening
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Musk's sub was no where near complete
By no where near complete you meant 100% pressure tested and already demonstrated in a pool while the elite Thai navy divers were talking to the media about how one of their own just died because the journey is so perilous?
and was too large to even enter the cave entrance
It was the size of one of the boys. Smaller than a fully grown man.
Musk showed up with his piece of crap half-made toy
Musk showed up with an air-tight cylinder with independent oxygen supply. It was fully made and suited to the task it needed to be done. What did you want from it? An xbox added as an in-rescue entertainment system?
Fact is, Musk was pulling a PR stunt
Yes. He
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It was the size of one of the boys. Smaller than a fully grown man.
Not with all the attachments hanging off it. Good luck fitting a boy into something the same size as him.
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Calling someone a pedophile is a claim of fact, and should generally be actionable.
IMO, if anything happening on Twitter would be likely to make more people believe it, not less.
But a further point is that a jury ruling is not a legal "precedent" in any way, shape, or form. Courts set legal precedent, juries do not.
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"wanker"
"asshole"
"fuckwit
"gay"
"dickhead"
"ass licker"
etc. etc. etc. fucking etc. it is now a claim of fact? Man we are going to have a LOT of court cases. Or is it only a claim of fact if I have a couple million followers and a couple billion in the bank? Unsworth or Wadsworth or fuckwit (or whatever his name is) saw a quick payday, I will bet he was not expecting it to go to court and was hoping for the usual out of court settlement of a couple million so th
Re:The status Quoe (Score:5, Informative)
So every time someone calls someone a... "wanker" "asshole" "fuckwit "gay" "dickhead" "ass licker" etc. etc. etc. fucking etc. it is now a claim of fact? Man we are going to have a LOT of court cases.
To equate generic insults like "wanker" with a very specific accusation of "pedophile" is extremely dishonest. There is a big difference and you know it. In fact if you take a look around this comment section you'll already see people picking up on Elon's statement and calling the dude a "deplorable person" and worse.
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I was with you up until this point -- what the heck does a jury failing to exercise government control against speech have to do with fascism?
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The guy also defamed Musk by claiming that his minisub was just a stunt
defamed? The guy insulted Musk, who overreacted and made an even bigger insult back. Neither of them look good, but I'm glad the courts told the "pedo" to bugger off.
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If Musk had done the least amount of work researching cave rescue of non-divers through sumps, he'd have discovered that people from the the teams with most practical experience in actually doing this (including, specifically, the emergency evacuation of multiple schoolchildren through flooded caves) were already consulting with the Thai authorit
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(1) people believe it, resulting in (2) quantifiable monetary damage
The guy was a world hero. The entire world was following that story, and he helped saved those kids lives. Instead of being a hero he was forced to defend himself against false accusations. Accusations that will follow him for the rest of his life. He will always be known as the "Pedo Guy" instead of a world hero. He could have used his name to make money. That is definitely a quantifiable monetary damage.
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He will be known as 'pedo guy' to the kind of people who slurp up Elon Musk memes and hang out in chatrooms to toss them back and forth. Everybody else will know he is a hero who rescued the kids.
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He will be known as 'pedo guy' to the kind of people who slurp up Elon Musk memes and hang out in chatrooms to toss them back and forth. Everybody else will know he is a hero who rescued the kids.
Exactly. Unsworth and others put their actual lives on the line to rescue those kids. Musk contributed nothing useful, and given the opportunity to risk his own life would have likely run away screaming like a little girl.
That said, a 190M lawsuit is also ridiculous and just an obvious attempt to score a bunch of free money from a douchey rich guy.
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However, it was not in isolation - the entire world's media explained in three letter words exactly who it was referring to.
Re: The status Quoe (Score:2)
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Said doubt surely dispelled when Elon Pedo Guy Musk hired investigators to try and find evidence of paedophilia from the person with whom he'd been arguing on Twitter, and to whom the world's media had referred to as the subject of the comment.
Re:The status Quoe (Score:5, Insightful)
And Musk wasn't immune to prosecution. The case went to trial and jury heard all of the evidence and arguments from both sides and reached their conclusion. Just because you don't like the outcome doesn't mean that Musk is somehow above the law. I'd be far more worried if they jury did rule the other way because Musk is hardly the only person who's said something mean on the internet that could be construed as disparaging in some manner.
Re:The status Quoe (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, he didn't really mean it when he called the guy a "pedo guy" and then followed up with an email calling him a "child rapist". And then hired a private investigator to investigate the guy. He was just kidding around.
Re:The status Quoe (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, if the trial firmly established anything, it's that Elon is an asshole.
But then most people were aware of that already.
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Musk spent a considerable amount of his own money to confirm to the world that he is an asshole. That was actually considerate of him.
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Well, if the trial firmly established anything, it's that Elon is an asshole.
But then most people were aware of that already.
Yeah, but compared to Steve Jobs, he is a nice guy, and I admire them both in many ways.
Just would not want to work for them, though forced I'd choose Elon.
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Maybe this is how people with virtually unlimited resources kid around? I have no idea, my Scrooge McDuck money bin is still under construction.
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The problem is whether or not anyone actually believes Musk is genuinely accusing this person of pedophilia or if he's just using offensive language to be generally insulting. If he'd called this person a mother fucker of a shit licker
Even though some stretch the use of pedo to huge age gaps regardless of puberty or age of consent, when have you ever heard anyone throw that around as a general insult unrelated to age-inappropriate relationships? Particularly in the context of rescuing young boys out of a cave where they'd have to be in very close proximity contact and it very much sounds like a hint that he'd like to use some grabby fingers instead of using Musk's sub to me. Even though he didn't name the diver directly in the tweet a ma
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Well, he still has lawsuits pending in Thailand and the UK.
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Even though some stretch the use of pedo to huge age gaps regardless of puberty or age of consent, when have you ever heard anyone throw that around as a general insult unrelated to age-inappropriate relationships?
Any time there's an old white expat in Thailand, pretty much.
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Musk telling the jury that it was just a bit of South African lingo seems to show he and his lawyers know he did something wrong.
I'm not quite sure you understand how court cases work. You don't sit there, give your singular defense and then when the jury finds you guilty come up with another defense, and rinse and repeat. You get in and make every possible argument to your innocence from the most fundamental to the most outrageous, in some cases sheer volume of the reasons prevail in the minds of jurors.
These were two kids wording off at each other. Neither thought what they did was wrong, but you've gotta have a mentally retarded l
I'm pretty sure he was (Score:3)
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Yeah, "pedo guy" doesn't imply anything.
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Musk is a former white South African who grew up in the era of Apartheid and as a privileged class within that system. He doesn't really have to hang around with Epstein to carry a certain aura about him.
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Of course he's immune to prosecution. That's not a crime.
He's not immune to lawsuits. This suit just failed to convince the jury.
Re: The status Quoe (Score:1)
Re: The status Quoe (Score:1)
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So instead you would rather have a legal system that rewards some guy who picked a fight on cable TV with a billionaire known for being infantile on the Internet, and then suing for 9 figures when the completely predictable and absolutely not damaging happened?
Sorry, a twitter slap fight is hardly worth that. Also, no "potential employer" of this guy is going to give two shits what Musk has to say about this guy, especially in light of this guy actually saving those kids, which is why he was on the news to
2 MAJOR issues: (Score:4, Insightful)
2) The U.S. legal system needs improvement. How does one bad word become a court case for "$190 million"?
Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)
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Especially because Elon already apologized and retracted the tweet.
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How the fuck is someone being greedy a reason to deny them justice?
Give them the decision in court that they were indeed defamed, then determine that an appropriate level of restitution is legal fees, the cost of their flight to the US and $400.
Job done, justice served.
But no, the fucked up US legal system decides it's perfectly fine for Elon Pedo Guy Musk to put someone else's life at risk. Fuck that.
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Because if you don't let people have access to the courts, you get worse problems.
And it was never actually a case "for $190 million." That's how much Pedo Guy was asking for, but that doesn't mean he would get that much if he won. If he won, the Court would have to calculate the actual damages that he proved. The "$190m" are words that were used, not an amount of money actually in dispute. Pedo Guy did not introduce any evidence even purporting to show that amount in damages.
So that is how; by allowing peo
Re:2 MAJOR issues: (Score:5, Informative)
Stop sniffing Musk's farts.
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2. This is par for the course. Nobody was expecting a $190 million dollar payout. If they sued for a reasonable amount and won it'd be haggled down to $1.50. This isn't so much how our court system works as it is how negotiations work.
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2) The U.S. legal system needs improvement. How does one bad word become a court case for "$190 million"?
It was never a "court case for $190M". Yeah, the plaintiff's lawyer put that number out there, but even if the jury hadn't decided that it wasn't defamation, Unsworth's lawyer would have had to prove that Unsworth had been damaged by that amount. No way that would have happened. The big number was thrown out most likely in a (successful) attempt to ensue publicity. I mean, the case would have gotten some attention because of Musk's notoriety regardless, but the big number made sure it was headline news.
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he has mental breakdowns
I chalk it up to tweeting or giving interviews while very high.
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It is not uncommon in many court systems to sue for a ridiculous amount of money. That sets a maximum. Usually the trial settles on a reasonable value later.
There is no way the guy would have gotten $190M, even if he won, and everyone knows that. It is just a negotiation technique.
And it is not just an insult, Musk accused him of a crime that is considered worse than murder in some ways. Calling someone a fucking asshole is an insult, calling someone a pedo *and actually trying to prove it, unsuccessfully*
The jury decided based on "Acquaintance" (Score:5, Interesting)
The jury had 5 parts that were to be satisfied for a finding of defamation.
"Acquaintance" - meaning that the readers of Elon's tweets knew who the target of the tweet was.
The jury agreed that the tweet didn't say Unsworth's name, and no other evidence was provided that readers of the tweet associated the tweet with the person claiming to be defamed, and thus acquaintance wasn't established. Therefore it couldn't be legally established that defamation occurred.
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/a... [buzzfeednews.com]
Yeah, that's pure B.S. (Score:2)
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Yup, which is a bit dubious. Because even if not all the *Twitter* readers can figure it out, in turn it caused the allegations to be reported in the popular press with Vernon's name...
Insults and arguments (Score:3, Insightful)
' Alex Spiro, Mr Musk's lawyer, argued that the "pedo guy" tweet was an offhand comment made in the course of an argument between the two men, which no-one could be expected to take seriously. "In arguments you insult people," he said. '
No, intelligent people argue with sensible thought out points during an argument. Children and idiots insult people in arguments because they lack the skills or intelligence to present their points clearly. If I don't agree with my boss's decision then I don't call him names 'cos it makes me look like a complete moron, I tell him I think XYZ is a bad idea and here's why I think that. Of course he then tells me we're doing it anyway, but that's besides the point! ha ha!
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"No, intelligent people argue with sensible thought out points"
No they don't always; no you don't always.
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However I don't think money should change hands over it either.
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I a perfect world, but everyone gets sad, and everyone gets mad, and sometimes people lose their cool and say things that they would not normally say. Including you, even Spock lost his cool on occasion.
No, because you would get fired, or at least given a written warning for unprofessional conduct. But I am sure you have slung the odd swear word on the face
The ultimate test... (Score:5, Interesting)
What if you or I called Musk a paedophile -- do you think we'd be found innocent of defamation in a US court?
Also, this wasn't just a one-off throw-away remark, I understand that Musk followed up this quip with further suggestions that the guy was indeed a paedophile which (if true) should have negated any claims that it was just an insult.
To be honest, the plaintif was stupid for suing for such a large sum ($190m) and should have gone for damages that were more in line with the true damage this incident may have caused him. I doubt the plaintif would have genuinely been impacted to this huge amount in terms of the effects on future earnings and the value ascribed to "hurt and emotional distress" must surely be in question.
If it was me, I'd have gone for $1m plus costs because the "win" would have been far more important than the money and I believe a jury may have been far more inclined to believe that I was geniunely distressed by the allegations rather than just an opportunist seeking to get rich quick on the back of Elon's poorly judged comments.
Fault on both sides -- but I still think Musk should have been found guilty and made to pay at least a token compensation.
Sadly however, in the age of "celebrity", people (even juries) are more inclined to side with their heros and role-models than with the letter of the law. :-(
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Re: The ultimate test... (Score:2)
Yeah, think about the example it sets. Calling someone a child rapist is accusing them of a crime. Same as calling them an arsonist or drug dealer. Why should false accusations of crimes be acceptable insults? It muddies the waters for law enforcement, it is false witness, warned about since ancient times. Some condemnation would have been good as an example.
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Musk Is A Lying Sack of Shit (Score:5, Interesting)
Musk told a Buzzfeed reporter: [buzzfeednews.com]
I suggest that you call people you know in Thailand, find out what’s actually going on and stop defending child rapists, you fucking asshole. He's an old, single white guy from England who’s been travelling to or living in Thailand for 30 to 40 years, mostly Pattaya Beach, until moving to Chiang Rai for a child bride who was about 12 years old at the time.
Musk then claimed in court [theguardian.com]:
I didn’t mean he was a pedophile
Based on his email to the Buzzfeed journalist, it's clear that Musk wanted the world to believe that Unsworth is a paedophile and a child rapist. I'm astounded that he can get away with blatantly lying in court like this.
Musk also used the absurd defence, "I'm not sure to the degree I'm actually influential." He has 29.9million followers on Twitter and everything he says gets widely reported in the media. For Musk to claim that he's not influential means he's either stupid or a liar.
Having an influential person like Musk call you a paedophile and a child rapist, and telling the world that you married a 12 year old, would be extremely damaging to a person. Musk is guilty as hell and he's shown himself to be a lying scumbag. I'm absolutely disgusted by this judgement.
That said, $190million damages is utterly absurd. Given the damage that Musk did to Unsworth's reputation, he should clearly receive damages, but not $190million. Taking into account Musk's wealth, I think $500K plus legal costs would be a fair judgement.
I pointed this out elsewhere (Score:2)
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It's a god damn twitter slap fight. Award him a single dollar. Because it's a judgement against Musk, legal fees would be included.
If the lawyer originally made a deal that his fees would be a percentage of the take, then he gets like $0.40. The real problem here is parasite lawyers that are trying to jackpot the situation.
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oh heck yeah (Score:1)
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Weird trial anyway (Score:2)
Just Musk acting like a baby on Twitter.
Re:Weird trial anyway (Score:5, Insightful)
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I'd heard of the private investigator... but until the comments in here never knew he told Buzzfeed that the guy was marrying 12 year olds on Thailand.
I feel like most of the time I've seen anything said about this, the only thing mentioned is the tweet. Then again I've mostly rolled my eyes at the Musk stuff anyway so I don't go much beyond titles or TFS.
Weird as Hell, but the 190m lawsuit is silly. Thanks for the quality response, though.
oops (Score:2)
Let's call Musk a pedo with hair plugs from now on (Score:2)
I am sure he won't mind.
Obviously hyperbolic insults are protected speech (Score:2)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
Compliment (Score:3)
The term 'pedo guy' was actually a complement, with "pedo" being short for "torpedo", implying that a person is a really fast swimmer.
https://www.urbandictionary.co... [urbandictionary.com]
Vernon Upsworth defamed Elon Musk first (Score:1)
I agree Elon Musk acted badly when he made the "pedo guy" comment. But what most people (including the media) have consistently overlooked is that Elon Musk was acting in response to nasty comments from Vernon Upsworth. I believe those comments from Vernon Upsworth were equally, if not, more defaming. I say this because, almost nobody believed that Vernon Upsworth was a paedophile, while most people unquestionally accepted Vernon Upsworth accertions that (1) the mini sub could never have worked, and (2) Elo
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