FTC Is Investigating Juul's Marketing Practices (techspot.com) 47
The FTC is investigating whether e-cigarette startup Juul Labs used influencers and other marketing to appeal to minors (Warning: source paywalled; alternative source). The Wall Street Journal reports: The probe, which hasn't previously been disclosed, began before the agency's antitrust review of a December deal in which tobacco giant Altria Group invested $12.8 billion to take a 35% stake in Juul, those and other people familiar with the matter said. The FTC is also determining whether to seek monetary damages, one of the people said. The agency in September first sent Juul a letter requesting information about its marketing, two of the people said. FTC investigators are looking at whether Juul engaged in deceptive marketing. The agency has designated the investigation as nonpublic.
The Food and Drug Administration and several state attorneys general also are investigating Juul's marketing practices. The FDA last October conducted a surprise inspection of Juul's headquarters and collected documents about its marketing. Juul's first marketing campaign in 2015, called "Vaporized," pitched the brand as a cool lifestyle accessory with images of people in their 20s and 30s, which critics say made the brand attractive to teens. Later, as sales of the sleek devices took off in 2017, Juul-related posts exploded on Instagram and Twitter with photos posted by young people using the product. Juul has since shut down its Facebook and Instagram accounts in the U.S. and changed its marketing to feature only adult smokers at least 35 years old who have switched to Juul. It has also voluntarily stopped selling sweet and fruity flavors in bricks-and-mortar stores. "We fully cooperate and are transparent with any government agency or regulator who have interest in our category," a Juul spokesman said. The company says it has never marketed to youth and that its products are intended for adult cigarette smokers.
The company says it supports legislation to raise the minimum purchase age to 21. It also unveiled a plan on Thursday to install an electronic age-verification system at gas stations and convenience stores intended to curb illegal sales to minors.
The Food and Drug Administration and several state attorneys general also are investigating Juul's marketing practices. The FDA last October conducted a surprise inspection of Juul's headquarters and collected documents about its marketing. Juul's first marketing campaign in 2015, called "Vaporized," pitched the brand as a cool lifestyle accessory with images of people in their 20s and 30s, which critics say made the brand attractive to teens. Later, as sales of the sleek devices took off in 2017, Juul-related posts exploded on Instagram and Twitter with photos posted by young people using the product. Juul has since shut down its Facebook and Instagram accounts in the U.S. and changed its marketing to feature only adult smokers at least 35 years old who have switched to Juul. It has also voluntarily stopped selling sweet and fruity flavors in bricks-and-mortar stores. "We fully cooperate and are transparent with any government agency or regulator who have interest in our category," a Juul spokesman said. The company says it has never marketed to youth and that its products are intended for adult cigarette smokers.
The company says it supports legislation to raise the minimum purchase age to 21. It also unveiled a plan on Thursday to install an electronic age-verification system at gas stations and convenience stores intended to curb illegal sales to minors.
Make up your mind (Score:4, Insightful)
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Would you support tutti-frutti nicorette?
Or how about "Fruit Chill" [nicorette.com], a coated fruit flavor that lasts.
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More importantly, you don't chew on it like you do regular gum. Even with fruit flavors you don't need to worry about people buying it for fun. It is not.
Who cares if it's pleasant? (Score:3)
Have you ever tasted regular Nicorette? It's awful. I can't think of anything that needs fruit flavoring more than it.
Since I'm not a drug addict, no I haven't tasted Nicorette. I'm not surprised it tastes like shit but I have a hard time believing that smoking tastes very pleasant either. Junkies will get their fix no matter what it tastes like. Poking needles into your skin for a drug fix doesn't sound like much fun either but it doesn't stop the addicts.
I get why people continue to smoke/vape/chew once they are addicted to nicotine but I never really could figure out why people would be willing to start in the first
You can't really hide it (Score:2)
I smoked for a few years. I hid it from everyone I knew so it was certainly not something I did to be cool or fit in.
If you think nobody noticed you smoking you are delusional. Most people don't care but the stink of cigarettes/cigars/pipes is nearly impossible to hide and is quite unmistakable. Maybe you hid it from a few people but it's impossible to hide "from everyone".
However after a stressful shift at my part-time minimum wage job someone handed me a cigarette and then my hands stopped shaking very quickly. So that's the main draw, it's relaxing.
The medical evidence says the opposite is actually true [nih.gov].
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I get why people continue to smoke/vape/chew once they are addicted to nicotine but I never really could figure out why people would be willing to start in the first place since it's a rather unpleasant and obviously toxic thing to do.
Well...
First off is the effects. Yes, smoking (at first) will generate a high. A certain light-headedness. Also, as I understand it, Nicotine in small doses acts as a depressant--it calms you down. Stressed at work or something? Pop out for a cigarette. It'll calm you down...
At higher doses, it acts as a stimulant. As a stimulant, it fits in nicely with other things that are depressants. You might have noticed that, with most bars banning smoking, you start see more alcoholic drinks with caffeine an
Starting makes little sense (Score:2)
Yes, smoking (at first) will generate a high. A certain light-headedness. Also, as I understand it, Nicotine in small doses acts as a depressant--it calms you down. Stressed at work or something? Pop out for a cigarette. It'll calm you down...
Have you ever seen someone trying to smoke the first time? I have. It's about as far from a pleasant high as it gets in a lot of (most?) cases. It makes people feel sick, cough, hack, etc since inhaling smoke (or the nasty chemicals that go with it) isn't something we are designed to do. And again you are describing why they continue to do it, not why they start. The question is what is the appeal that would cause you to stick a cigarette in your mouth in the first place and/or enough times to get add
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The point of Nicorette or other tobacco substitutes is to help you STOP using tobacco and nicotine products. Tasting bad should presumably help to wean you off the gum. Juul and others go the opposite route, they want addicted users. Their electronics track the users, they know how much is consumed, and they know when to remind the users to go buy more pods. They don't provide a stop-smoking device, they provide a transfer-your-addiction-to-our-product device.
Vape juice is a little sweet by necessity (Score:3)
It might be noted that the two products which can be used to make the vapor, propylene glycol and vegetable glycerin, are a little bit sweet. These are what creates the fog that makes vaping what it is.
Companies don't make them sweet simply because people like sweet tastes, the base is sweet by necessity and companies add flavors that go well with sweet, such as fruit flavors.
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Re:Vape juice is a little sweet by necessity (Score:5, Informative)
Propylene Glycol isn't the least bit sweet, nor does it contribute to the volume or density of the vapor, it's just a flavor carrier.
Wrong. The propylene glycol causes the vegetable glycerin to vaporize at lower temperatures (lower boiling point) and aids in making the vapor more smoke-like because it causes the creation of smaller vapor droplets. Attempting to use pure vegetable glycerin in a standard vape will cause the cartomizer coil(s) to overheat and scorch the glycerin.and the organic cotton wicking material. Commercial vape liquid can usually be specified by the ratio of PG/VG and nicotine dosage/ml but don't offer ready-to-vape liquid below a ratio of 20%-25% PG to 75%-80% VG because it just doesn't work well in the most common commercial mass-produced vaping units and causes premature cartomizer degradation & failure.
If the FTC follows typical patterns, any new regulations will not solve any problems, only mildly affect the big tobacco companies making things like the Juul, but be incredibly effective at hampering their smaller competitors and making it harder and more expensive for tobacco smokers to quit smoking using vaping. Win-win for both the tobacco industry and those sweet, sweet tobacco tax revenues that have been dropping off heavily with far fewer people smoking tobacco.
Strat
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BlueStrat pretty much set you straight on the purpose of PG in vape. Let's have a look at first two sentences in the Wikipedia entry for PG:
Propylene glycol (IUPAC name: propane-1,2-diol) is an organic compound with the chemical formula CH3CH(OH)CH2OH. It is a viscous, colorless liquid which is nearly odorless but possesses a faintly *sweet taste*.
There are probably some other topics you know something about, so you could make intelligent comments on those other topics.
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Would you support tutti-frutti nicorette? Or candy cigarettes with nicotine in them?
Yes, please. I absolutely adore sweet-flavored cigarettes, chewing tobacco, vaping liquids and drinks. I'm almost 40, btw.
Since we are talking about sweet flavors and taste, how about all those alcoholic drinks with such flavors? And how about extremely sugary sodas with gazillion flavors? How about energy drinks? How about Candy Crush Saga microtransactions?
Don't get me wrong, I like them all (except Candy Crush Saga), however the analogy remains: The FTC is really pushing it, this is a move towards prohib
Re: Make up your mind (Score:2)
This right here, how many alco pops are out there targeted specifically at teens, WkD, Smirnoff Ice, etc. I line sweet stuff stuff but one gulp if WKD made me want to hurl, super sweet, but I'm sure 13 year olds love it. Just another fake outrage to limit/tax vapours out there.
And before anyone gets on the OMG look at all the people coming down with lung probs in Ohio and Midwest, they were vaping unknown products from street corner vendors,,, the same as people who take a chance on home distilled liquor,
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Those sweet malt beverages you're talking about, and I agree they are awful, are popular with many young adults of legal age. There was a time when they were popular with me, then I realized that drinking them tended to give me the spins.
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As long as selling them to teens is against the law, the rest is bullshit.
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Cigarettes and alcohol are already illegal to sell to minors. This isn't prohibition, it's about including this dangerous activity in the same category as other tobacco products. The push is not to prevent 20-somethings from vaping, but to prevent teenagers from vaping.
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No, the push is to prevent everyone from vaping flavored liquids.
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Sure, why not. Anything to encourage smokers to chew the gum rather than light up.
You might have noticed over the years that fruit juices mixed with alcohol are popular with adults. Dung mixed with alcohol is not.
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Sure, why not.
Now, just apply cigarette equivalent tax on all vaping products across all states, make the punishments and age requirements equal to cigarettes, and require all the ingredients to be fully FDA vetted (since they are basically going straight into the blood stream via the lungs, this will need to be more stringent that food requirements of course).
The chemicals used in these fluids are different from the the smoke of a cigarette, however it is still going straight in to your lungs in heavy conc
Re:Make up your mind (Score:4, Insightful)
Now, just apply cigarette equivalent tax on all vaping products across all states, make the punishments and age requirements equal to cigarettes, and require all the ingredients to be fully FDA vetted (since they are basically going straight into the blood stream via the lungs, this will need to be more stringent that food requirements of course).
I agree with everything except equivalent taxes. Despite the fear-mongering, vaping is safer than smoking. It should be taxed proportionately to its harm.
The chemicals used in these fluids are different from the the smoke of a cigarette, however it is still going straight in to your lungs in heavy concentrations - there is therefore a high risk factor, and it should be treated as such.
Early vaping had a lot of problems as they figured out solvents and flavors. They've since sussed it out Darwin-style. What we have now isn't causing people to drop dead (except for black market THC vapes at the moment). It's not as bad as a cigarette.
There is also a much higher risk for children than in cigarettes of course, because vaping is less unpleasant to initially try.
Thinner hypodermic needles made it less unpleasant to try heroin. As long as we're not making it attractive to people/children, there shouldn't be an issue. Cherry needles is where I draw the line.
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Despite the fear-mongering, vaping is safer than smoking. It should be taxed proportionately to its harm.
Well that's a subjective point of view. Vice taxes are one of those typically eluding logic. The level to which it's taxed is pretty much whoever is in charge's whim. So maybe it should be taxed proportionately, maybe it shouldn't. But in practice, very little logic is usually applied to tax on vices.
It's not as bad as a cigarette
I mean that's setting the bar mighty low there, but yeah sure if that's the stick we're using to measure with.
Thinner hypodermic needles made it less unpleasant to try heroin
But that's not exactly an apples to apples comparison. I get the humor you're trying to use to
Vaping is cool (Score:5, Funny)
Whenever I see a guy vaping I think "that guy is soooo cool". It doesn't scream "douchenozzle" at all.
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It's a drug addiction. Why should I give a fuck what people think? I didn't give one when I smoked. Save your hate for the stinkier nicotine addicts.
Hate is not a limited resource.
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Full disclaimer: I can't deny loving the scooters myself. Oh the shame.
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Whenever I see a guy vaping I think "that guy is soooo cool". It doesn't scream "douchenozzle" at all.
Just like whenever I hear someone use a word like douchenozzle . It doesn't scream twat at all.
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Why do I feel like the "vaping debate" really boils down to sentiments like this, and not any actual science, harm/risk reduction strategies or reasonable risk theories?
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I think those comments are pointing to the fashion aspect of vaping. There's a huge rise in vaping from people who never smoked previously, they're not vaping in order to wean themselves off of cigarettes. Instead, it's a hipster sort of thing to do in many places. There's word of mouth that falsely tells others that it's perfectly safe. People are vaping indoors and if you ask them to leave they get upset and think that you're being some sort of puritan even though the vapor smells terrible and is like
Re: Vaping is cool (Score:2)
Of course it wouldn't. While not glamorous, a douchenozzle still serves a useful purpose. I've not yet met a vapist of whom I can say the same.
Family Juuls (Score:2)
Juul is owned by a tobacco company. Its purpose is to drag crushing regulatory burden onto the vaping industry, as competition to cigarettes.
"See all these huge signs we put up how evil vaping is? You should regulate us."
"Yes, give us all a good spanking. All vaping companies, not just us."
"Yay! North Carolina, a tobacco state, is first out of the gate to sue Juul. More to follow!"
That's the bullshit the government should be investigating.
You are being played like a song in 4d chess, rubes.
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Juul is not owned by a tobacco company. A tobacco company bought a 35% stake in the company last December, but you'll notice that 35% is far less than 100%.
Precisely. That tobacco company (Altria) invested in Juul instead of making their own vapes because they see the writing on the wall: more and more people prefer to vape instead of smoke and the tobacco companies are losing money. As it should be.
Tobacco is still immensely profitable (Score:2)
That tobacco company (Altria) invested in Juul instead of making their own vapes because they see the writing on the wall: more and more people prefer to vape instead of smoke and the tobacco companies are losing money.
"Losing money"? Hardly. Altria made $2 Billion in profit from revenue of $5.19 Billion last quarter. They are hugely, incredibly profitable and are likely to remain so. The sell a legal addictive drug that causes huge health care costs that they mostly get to push off on the rest of us.
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I also think people are now getting more nicotine from vaping than they did as smokers, which makes me doubt the effectiveness for giving up smoking long term. And for non smokers, there's a new generation of kids already addicted to nicotine who've never tried tobacco and they're primed to be the next gen tobacco market if vaping is reduced.
Adults are 18 not 21 (Score:2)
The company says it supports legislation to raise the minimum purchase age to 21.
Why? It shouldn't be 21 for smoking or drinking or vaping. If you are old enough to vote or serve in the military or sign a contract then you damn sure are old enough to be able to drink or smoke or vape. Yes smoking and vaping are hugely stupid things to do but 18 years old and you are an adult and you should get to make that choice. This is just political posturing by idiot politicians to pretend like they are doing something useful. The vast majority [procon.org] of countries around the world have their drinking
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Since studies say your brain isn't fully developed until 25, maybe we should raise those ages to 25.
I don't really care what the specific age of maturity is but it seems 18 is the consensus answer and there is plenty of evidence that 18 works just fine. If you want to raise the age to join the military and to vote and to drive etc to 25 then fine but it should all be the same. It makes no sense to say I'm adult enough for some but not all of them. Raising it to 25 would be stupid and clearly counterproductive but it makes more sense than what we have now.
Most of the others only affect the kid--voting w/o brains affects everyone.
Defense of our country affects everyone. Being
Addiction (Score:2)
I smoked for decades, since I was around 17.
When vaping arrived, I tried the Blu. Thought the LED was clever but it didn't "do it" for me.
I bought a bunch of vaping hardware, the nerd aspect was attractive I guess.
Swapped batteries, tried all kind of juice. A new hobby I thought.
I heard about the Juul hype and while a road trip I bought a discounted starter kit.
When I took the first Juul hit, it rang the bell instantly. Must be the nicotine salt formulation,
but it certainly worked the first time. Sort of li