Wells Fargo Sued By 63-Year-Old Pastor They Wrongfully Accused of Forging Checks (nj.com) 246
Wells Fargo has been hit with a lawsuit from a 63-year-old pastor at the United Methodist Church of Parsippany. Wells Fargo sent his ATM photos to the police, which he says led to false arrest, malicious prosecution -- and humiliation. NJ.com reports:
In the lawsuit filed Thursday in Morris County Superior Court, attorneys for the 63-year-old pastor sought unspecified damages against Wells Fargo, which has come under fire over a series of scandals in recent years. Also named were the State Police detectives who originally brought the charges against him last year after bank security officials allegedly mistakenly identified a photo of Edwards taken at an ATM machine as a suspect in a series of fraudulent check deposits....
In the lawsuit, Edwards' attorney wrote that Wells Fargo notified the State Police when it discovered the bogus transactions, and the bank was asked to provide any still photos or video images taken from the ATM at Parsippany where some of the checks were deposited and later cashed out. The bank sent photos of Edwards, who had made his own deposit of checks at the same ATM the very same day, according to the complaint...
The pastor said he first discovered he was the focus of a criminal investigation last year after a parishioner texted him a State Police Facebook posting requesting the public's help identifying a man suspected of depositing fraudulent checks at an ATM... In an interview, Edwards said after seeing the post, he called the detectives and shared a copy of his banking transactions to show he had not deposited the fraudulent checks. "I thought it would clear things up," he said. "They said all their information was from Wells Fargo..." Last September, Edwards said he was asked to come down to the State Police station in Holmdel. After he got there, he said he was shocked to find out he was being arrested and charged with third degree forgery. When he protested and said somebody made an error, he said one of the investigators asked him if the case did go to trial, who would the jury believe -- a bank security expert or him?
"They fingerprinted me. Took my mug shot and gave me a court date," he said.
The case fell apart, but the 63-year-old pastor says he never received an apology from the police, or from Wells Fargo. "The carelessness of both Wells Fargo and the State Police is kind of appalling, and I wonder what happens to somebody who might not have the resources to defend themselves," the pastor told NJ.com. "I told them yes that was my picture and yes I was in the bank that day. That's all they needed to arrest me."
A spokesman for Wells Fargo told the reporter they'd be unable to comment "since this is a pending legal matter." But the story was submitted to Slashdot by someone claiming to be pastor Jeff Edwards. "Wells Fargo carelessly provided ATM pictures [of] me to the state police in a fraudulent check investigation that led to my arrest," reads the original submission.
"The case was dismissed when it was demonstrated that Wells Fargo had been grossly irresponsible."
In the lawsuit, Edwards' attorney wrote that Wells Fargo notified the State Police when it discovered the bogus transactions, and the bank was asked to provide any still photos or video images taken from the ATM at Parsippany where some of the checks were deposited and later cashed out. The bank sent photos of Edwards, who had made his own deposit of checks at the same ATM the very same day, according to the complaint...
The pastor said he first discovered he was the focus of a criminal investigation last year after a parishioner texted him a State Police Facebook posting requesting the public's help identifying a man suspected of depositing fraudulent checks at an ATM... In an interview, Edwards said after seeing the post, he called the detectives and shared a copy of his banking transactions to show he had not deposited the fraudulent checks. "I thought it would clear things up," he said. "They said all their information was from Wells Fargo..." Last September, Edwards said he was asked to come down to the State Police station in Holmdel. After he got there, he said he was shocked to find out he was being arrested and charged with third degree forgery. When he protested and said somebody made an error, he said one of the investigators asked him if the case did go to trial, who would the jury believe -- a bank security expert or him?
"They fingerprinted me. Took my mug shot and gave me a court date," he said.
The case fell apart, but the 63-year-old pastor says he never received an apology from the police, or from Wells Fargo. "The carelessness of both Wells Fargo and the State Police is kind of appalling, and I wonder what happens to somebody who might not have the resources to defend themselves," the pastor told NJ.com. "I told them yes that was my picture and yes I was in the bank that day. That's all they needed to arrest me."
A spokesman for Wells Fargo told the reporter they'd be unable to comment "since this is a pending legal matter." But the story was submitted to Slashdot by someone claiming to be pastor Jeff Edwards. "Wells Fargo carelessly provided ATM pictures [of] me to the state police in a fraudulent check investigation that led to my arrest," reads the original submission.
"The case was dismissed when it was demonstrated that Wells Fargo had been grossly irresponsible."
Irresponsibility as usual (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Irresponsibility as usual (Score:5, Insightful)
It is also a case of astounding incompetence at multiple levels at Wells Fargo.
The customer is photographed when they insert their card to make a transaction.
The photo is timestamped.
The transaction is timestamped.
How fricken' hard is it to match up two timestamps?
Re:Irresponsibility as usual (Score:5, Insightful)
Extremely difficult when the timestamps aren't in sync, or when the logger is behind and the logger is the one adding the timestamps to its messages.
Software design matters. Nearly every logger I've seen provides its own timestamps. But they shouldn't need to read the log files. They should be checking the transaction ids and the photos should be linked to transactions, not timestamps. Again, good design matters. But we're just guessing at how Wells Fargo fucked up. Since it's Wells Fargo, it's easy to believe that the fraud ATM user had his face covered and the operator just picked this guy instead since his transactions where close enough. What's the chances that this guy deposited the same amount of checks as the scammer? Were the deposits made into the same bank account?. WTF is going on with the people in this investigation?
Excellent job taking this to court. Please don't settle. Keep in mind all the other people who where scared into taking a plea bargain. I've been in that position and almost admitted to something I didn't do. The social pressure the police put on you to agree to everything they say can be overpowering.
Also, don't help the police. Time and time again they've shown they aren't to be trusted.
Re:Irresponsibility as usual (Score:5, Interesting)
Also, don't help the police. Time and time again they've shown they aren't to be trusted.
I find it really sad that this was my first thought upon reading that the pastor voluntarily went to the police station. You'd think a pastor would be able to trust that his word would be taken seriously and in good faith, but not even our pillars of the community get the benefit of the doubt anymore.
The police are not on your side, unfortunately. Don't talk to them without a lawyer, you will get burned.
Re:Irresponsibility as usual (Score:4, Informative)
Sadly, I agree wholeheartedly.
Since many prisons are now "for profit", and budgets are so tight, the police have shown they can no longer be trusted to properly or fairly do their jobs, and corporations never were trustworthy to start with....
demand jury trail! (Score:2)
demand jury trail!
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demand jury trail!
Demand a trial by combat!
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well jury trail! is in the us constitution. I don't want to deal with some local sheriff's rules for trial by combat!
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It's been a long time since Esquire meant the squire to a knight, and most knights don't know how to hold a lance.
IIRC, even in British law trial by combat has been ruled invalid ever since a guy showed up in armor and on a horse. He won the case, but the process was quickly disallowed.
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Do you really think that these "privately run" prisons give perks and bonuses to LEOs who arrest people? Like manufacturer reps do with sales rep. Quite an unreasonable leap of (non-) logic there, eh?
Re:Irresponsibility as usual (Score:4, Informative)
Since there is at least one case of bribing judges to send kids to privately run detention centers, [wikipedia.org], it's not a stretch to think that a private prison operator might bribe LEOs.
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You'd think a pastor would be able to trust that his word would be taken seriously and in good faith, but not even our pillars of the community get the benefit of the doubt anymore.
Why? They're as capable of lying as the next guy, and probably have more to lose. Don't see them leaping to help the police catch pedophile ministers do you?
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The police are not on your side, unfortunately. Don't talk to them without a lawyer, you will get burned.
This exactly. You have the right to remain silent. Use it. When sat down to be question say this exactly, only. "I want my lawyer." Then shut the fuck up till you see him.
Cops (Score:4, Interesting)
The cops are overworked people who get rewarded (promotions, more pay, peer respect) by results. Therefore they will take a two-dimensional view through a three-dimensional person, say "this 2D line fits this image", and stitch you up.
Sometimes that is true and there is evidence to support that point of view in many places. But I happen to be personal friends with a number of cops and that description is not one size fits all. Not even close. A lot of them really are genuine public servants trying to do a good job. Their incentives have been unfortunately warped in an unfortunate direction sometimes but most of them that I've interacted with are aware of this fact and try their best to not be influenced by it when it happens. They aren't robots with no awareness of the social implications of what they are asked to do. It's actually because of that fact that when they do step over the line and start violating civil rights that it becomes that much more inexcusable because in most cases they know what they are doing is wrong.
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Well, some beliefs are less whacky than others, and yours at least has the virtual of being unusual.
FWIW, there *are* "secrets" held by some versions of FreeMasons, but most of them are actually easily accessible in various sources. (Try Carl Jung on alchemy for a starter, and then read Robert Anton Wilson's "Masks of the Illumanati". That should give you a good basis for further explanation. Crowley's "Magick in Theory and Practice" is another good starting point...but if you don't read Jung first you m
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However the level or respect should be equal. When these community leaders get a free pass, or instant assumption that they are on the side of truth, opens the door further to corruptions. As in I can wear a black shirt with a white collar, and assume that my word over the guy who is in worn blue collar uniform is more truthful.
Police are not judges, they will investigate the crime, this included following leads and the pathway down the innocent.
Re:Irresponsibility as usual (Score:4, Insightful)
The timestamps have to be in sync because ATM transactions interact with other servers at the bank and at other banks (for credit card ATM withdrawals). If the clocks on all those computers and ATM aren't in sync, it creates the possibility of withdrawing (say) $100 multiple times from an account which only contains $100.
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Do they care about your balance when the maximum withdrawal amount is only a few hundred dollars?
Banks really like to charge overdraft (and other) fees, plus there's some failsafe aspect to consider if there are communications problems.
I always figured that while the banks would like to verify funds, NSF fees make it on the whole profitable to just kick out cash in the event they can't verify funds. The transaction limit lowers their risk.
and the 3rd party atm in the quickie mart is in sy (Score:2)
and the 3rd party atm in the quickie mart is in sync 100% or on line 24/7. Some may still be on dial up.
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The timestamps have to be in sync because ATM transactions interact with other servers at the bank and at other banks (for credit card ATM withdrawals). If the clocks on all those computers and ATM aren't in sync, it creates the possibility of withdrawing (say) $100 multiple times from an account which only contains $100.
Timestamps have nothing to do with transaction authorization. Transaction authorization is based upon your account balance, daily limits and other parameters. If your account has a balance of $100, then you can not withdraw multiple $100s. No matter what the timestamps.
Furthermore, there could be dozens of computers in the path of a single transaction belonging to different banks, payment processors and other entities. It is not possible to sync the clocks between all of them.
The timestamp on a transactio
Re:Irresponsibility as usual (Score:5, Insightful)
No possible to synchronize all the clocks? What stone are you living under? You can either use NTP if millisecond synchronization is adequate or PTP if you need nano/pico second synchronization. Heck if you used RFC 868 and just wrote the time out to the local clock say every 8 hours you would get second level synchronization.
Finally if you know your clocks are not synchronized then you have no business using time stamps to match up pictures to transactions for the purposes of prosecuting thefts/frauds.
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But realistically speaking, good luck trying to synchronize all clocks between hundreds of thousands of servers (if you consider the global financial system) where servers belong to thousands of different banks, processors, countries, etc.
And finally, I wasn't referring to time stamps on pictures. I said, transaction processing and authorization didn't need these timestamps with reference to the parent post
You obviously don't know much about how things in the real world work. Perh
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it creates the possibility of withdrawing (say) $100 multiple times from an account which only contains $100.
No, it does not. Why would it?
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Re:Irresponsibility as usual (Score:4, Informative)
The timestamps have to be in sync because ATM transactions interact with other servers at the bank
Two clocks are never perfectly in sync -- there is always some tolerance for clock skew, even with SSL, etc; most likely 3 to 5 minutes.
In any event, there's no technical requirement that the Cameras timestamps be in sync with the Bank network for the ATMs to function --- the timestamp on the camera could be X minutes ahead or behind the ATM's timestamp.
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There is no technical requirement. But, since this is not the first case which has accused the wrong person because of skewed camera times, I hope that Wells Fargo loses many millions of dollars in in this case, far more than would cost to just run NTP on each subsystem. Then, there will be a financial requirement, which is the only requirement which the banks care about.
Easy... and happens surprisingly often. (Score:5, Interesting)
Sadly some bank employees often do not even attempt to analyse anything. They spend the smallest amount of time/effort to finish the task, for example forward some data without validating it.
There are numerous cases where banks freeze people's account for debt recovery, while the original order was on a different person with the same name. You would think this should never happen as there is (on order and in accoint) a lot of additional information that should match in order to validate the order, such as birthdate, official address, ID, yet time and time again bank employees just click on the first account that comes up in "search for first name last name" field in their system.
It takes months to correct such mistake (and get access to your money), as when you raise the problem the bank will go full "let's do it totally formally now like an insurance company" way with YOU having to convince the system it is their mistake.
Just like every other job (Score:2)
Sadly some bank employees often do not even attempt to analyse anything. They spend the smallest amount of time/effort to finish the task, for example forward some data without validating it.
That would make them exactly like some percent of employees in literally every other job you could possibly mention. I have yet to see a company without some percent of employees that fit exactly your description.
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Sadly some bank employees often do not even attempt to analyse anything. They spend the smallest amount of time/effort to finish the task, for example forward some data without validating it.
That would make them exactly like some percent of employees in literally every other job you could possibly mention. I have yet to see a company without some percent of employees that fit exactly your description.
And, as zero can be a percent, that will always be true...
Re:Irresponsibility as usual (Score:5, Funny)
It works, duh (Score:2)
Re: It works, duh (Score:2, Interesting)
It seems like they choose not to investigate the pastor's version of events. This is very different than choosing to believe one or the other
Re: It works, duh (Score:5, Interesting)
It seems like they choose not to investigate the pastor's version of events. This is very different than choosing to believe one or the other
this is quite common. just assume guilty and try to coerce a guilty plea - and they even went as far as to imply that he would not receive a fair trial so he would be better off just confessing.
that makes it a lot easier for police and usually works with the people they mainly deal with which is drug addicts coming down. it doesn't get the right crime allocated to the right perp of course, but it's not like that shows up in the statistics anyways. and once you've confessed in the hearing, well, good luck trying to turn that over in the actual trial because that ain't happening, even if you have proof that you didn't do it.
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This is also a failure of the US justice system. The costs of losing a case are marginal for the state, while the costs of winning are astronomical for the accused.
It is a perversion compared to other systems, where the state has to compensate any falsely accused for time and money spent in court, and especially for time in prison.
Re: It works, duh (Score:4, Insightful)
This is also a failure of the US justice system.
Newsflash, motherfuckers; don't be chumps. This is the 'justice" system the way it's supposed to. What; you didn't think it existed to benefit you, did you??
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Newsflash, motherfuckers; don't be chumps. This is the 'justice" system the way it's supposed to. What; you didn't think it existed to benefit you, did you??
Where would someone get such an idea? Here:
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offen
Re: It works, duh (Score:4, Insightful)
The police did their job and they did it correctly.
No, they didn't.
You get a complaint and some evidence, and the accused says "I didn't do that".
He also gave the police the ATM receipts and transactions on his OWN account. That should have been the red flags for the police. Their job was to go back with that evidence and get Wells Fargo to confirm the account matches the guy they are looking for. Like, before they bring the guy in and book him and threaten him with "well it's Well's Fargo's word against yours, you lying bank fraudster." Completely unprofessional.
And as many crimes as Wells Fargo has been caught committing, they should really have been more skeptical of anything they said. Not so for the pastor, they could have checked and seen he did not have a record.
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Police officers are encouraged to get a confession anyway they can, including lying.
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yes general population can be worse
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/0... [nytimes.com]
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It's the 'Guilty until proven innocent' game again.
Yes, and it would appear that being a man of the cloth provides you absolutely zero credibility these days with regards to that as well.
Religious leaders don't deserve special trust (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, and it would appear that being a man of the cloth provides you absolutely zero credibility these days with regards to that as well.
Why on earth should being a "man of the cloth" provide any special credibility? If anything it should be a strike against them given that they are in most cases literally selling a false and/or unverifiable claims of the supernatural. (those churches get built with real money that came from someone and someone pays the pastor's salary) They get away with it mostly because of social tradition but it's not difficult to make the case that what they are doing fits the description of fraud [wikipedia.org] or at the very leas
Re: Religious leaders don't deserve special trust (Score:2)
They just need to add "for entertainment purposes only" in really small text on the front page of their holy book of choice, and then it stops being a fraud.
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It's not fraud if they really believe it, and a lot of them do. You wouldn't believe how ignorant some preachers are. I went to a service a couple of weeks ago and the preacher was so ignorant of Bible history that he claimed that in the time of King David the Jews ruled the entire world. He can't have understood his claim, but the Bible itself contradicts that.
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The case is not supposed to even end up in front of a judge unless the prosecutor thinks it's a valid case. Either this rule was not followed (probable) or the prosecution didn't bother to investigate (also probable) or both.
So it was a gross miscarriage of justice (though not as bad as many). And the police did not do their job properly, but neither did the prosecuting attorney. Both should be severely censured...being stripped of right to the bar sounds right for the attorney, and being fired for incom
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I don't get it -- the police suspected him of a crime and booked him in and set a date for him to have a trial in a court of law. If this is "guilty until proven innocent" then it's not possible to ever book/charge anyone for anything because you'd never know they were guilty until the trial and you'd never get to the trial without the charge.
From the sounds of it, the police had a shitty case, the shitty case fell apart before it even went to trial. No one was found guilty of anything, nor did the guy spen
Why the bank? (Score:5, Interesting)
Ok, Wells Fargo made an error.
But it was the police who arrested the guy, instead of just knocking on the door at an appropriate time, and asking some questions.
What on earth was their justification for making an arrest first? Was he considered a flight risk?
Re:Why the bank? (Score:5, Insightful)
I think there is a bit of misunderstanding there regarding word arrest.
"They fingerprinted me. Took my mug shot and gave me a court date,"
I don't think he was put into holding cell/prison waiting for the trial (which is the meaning of arrest in case of flight risk or possibility of muddling up the case). I think he was handled as arrested person, with mug shot and related paperwork and let out, asking him to come back to court (which did not happen, as case was dismissed beforehand).
I suppose that story would be a lot weaker if instead of saying 'arrest' and 'mug shot' it would instead say "they invited me to police station and took picture to compare with one taken at the ATM, but before case went to court, they realized timestamps were mismatched" ;)
I'm all for him suing Wells Fargo/police/whoever was involved, but it doesn't sound like he was put into prison cell in meantime.
well, it's worth suing. (Score:5, Informative)
Because wells fargo provided wrong pictures and the police just went on with it with the premise that he should confess EVEN IF HE WAS INNOCENT because if it went to court he would be railroaded anyways and would get higher charges. he didn't do it but they were so ready to assume that it was him that they probably went more than a little bit too far with just trying to get him to confess.
it's worth suing both the police and wells fargo really, since it's in the usa. that it's in the usa is also why it can cause personal loss worth suing over as well as .. well, that's just what you gotta do in usa.
it's pinpointing a thing that is majorly wrong with the usa legal system at the moment and as such well worth suing for. It is the system trying to coerce you to give up your right for a fair trial(by pleading guilt on whatever they randomly choose as the crime that time) by pressuring on the fear that you will not receive a fair trial.
"you better plead guilty because otherwise you'll be convicted on stuff you didn't do anyways".
a lot of why that system got into the place at is today is the notion that "it only happens to people who deserve it" or that they did something anyways, so who cares, just convict them of something. it's barbaric and stupid. but somehow americans keep voting in people who base their campaigns on just doubling down on the stupidity.
---
and it is mugshot not a comparison photo, that it was him in the photo was never contested. it's not for that purpose. the mugshot and publishing them (before trial) is for shaming purposes, which again seems like a good idea as long as it never happens to you.
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it's worth suing both the police and wells fargo really, since it's in the usa. that it's in the usa is also why it can cause personal loss worth suing over as well as .. well, that's just what you gotta do in usa.
Being in the US is also why it's smarter just to sue Wells Fargo. Not only does Wells Fargo have deeper pockets, but no law enforcement organization is going to admit guilt (or issue an apology) under a civil suit. Worse, any money you win from them comes from you eventually in the form of taxes.
Lobbying for greater regulation and smarter laws is how we change police culture, not civil lawsuits so much.
Re:well, it's worth suing. (Score:5, Insightful)
....but no law enforcement organization is going to admit guilt (or issue an apology) under a civil suit. Worse, any money you win from them comes from you eventually in the form of taxes.
That's why I think that all police malpractice judgements should come out of the police retirement fund, not tax revenues. This would break the "blue wall" by incentivizing officers to inform on each other to protect their own interests.
Re:well, it's worth suing. (Score:5, Interesting)
If the police cared about justice, they would not use the Reid technique for interrogations.
The Reid technique is very effective at getting confessions. Unfortunately, it produces a shockingly high rate of false confessions.
There are other techniques used in other countries where the objective is not to get a confessions, but instead to get to the truth.
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And now he has all the hassle of scrubbing that data from police systems. Well, I'm not sure if you can in NZ, but in the UK when this sort of thing happens you can get your DNA and fingerprints removed from the database with some effort.
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In Canada, it is supposed to be removed automatically after IIRC, 6 months.
Re: Why the bank? (Score:2)
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I suppose that story would be a lot weaker if instead of saying 'arrest' and 'mug shot' it would instead say "they invited me to police station and took picture to compare with one taken at the ATM, but before case went to court, they realized timestamps were mismatched" ;)
It also would be false. Arrested and imprisoned are not the same thing, and neither is "taking a picture to compare" and "mug-shot + fingerprint". At the time he was in the police station he most definitely was arrested. He couldn't just thank them for their time and walk out. They processed him like anyone they arrest and then released him pending a court case.
The System in the UK (Score:3, Informative)
Here in the UK - on which much of your American system is based - we have varying levels of "being spoken to" by the police.
Often, the first thing that police will do is ask you down to the station to "assist with their enquiries". This is very much understood to mean that the person could well be a witness, an expert, or just someone who happens to be helpful to the case. If the police say that someone is "helping with their enquiries", it's usually because they either don't have the evidence to actually *
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We have very similar "levels" in the US, unsurprisingly.
The police may conduct a "voluntary interview" with a person. At this point, they do not need reasonable suspicion that anything has happened; think of it as a "friendly chat." The person being interviewed is under no obligation to talk with the police and may leave the interview at any time. If you are a suspect being questioned at this level, the proper response to all questions is simply "Am I being detained, or am I free to leave?"
If the police
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Correct, the police in this case acted like the "Loss Prevention" team of the bank. Did ZERO verification of the data, did ZERO conformation. They only acted like the bank's attack dogs. Here a picture, go fetch!
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I think there is a bit of misunderstanding there regarding word arrest.
Arrest is a big deal. It means a record. It means being forced, rather than requested, to "accompany the police to the station". It means walking away would be a crime.
A photo and fingerprints can be given voluntarily, without arrest. Even suspected murderers are given that benefit if police do not believe they have evidence to charge them yet.
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An arrest shouldn't mean a record as it can happen through bad luck like this case (I assume he made his deposit close in time to the fraudster). Until you've actually been convicted of a crime, you're innocent. Here in Canada, IIRC, they're supposed to throw out your fingerprints etc 6 months after charges are dropped or you're acquitted and the period for appeal is over.
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Does that really matter?.
The point is, how he's in their system.. and with the police, once you are IN the system, your name and details pop up every-time they sneeze for any crimes in the region and for almost any reason. (someone burgled a bank, lets also toss this Pastor in the mix). That information is not purged from their records.
Also it means if he wants to immigrate, he now has to spend extra time/money on getting a clearance report and while that can be obtained, it puts you on the bottom rung for
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I don't think he was put into holding cell/prison waiting for the trial (which is the meaning of arrest in case of flight risk or possibility of muddling up the case). I think he was handled as arrested person, with mug shot and related paperwork and let out, asking him to come back to court (which did not happen, as case was dismissed beforehand).
Yes. He was arrested. The police made a record of that. It's not the mug shot or the fingerprints that are the problem. It's the arrest record which now exists.
As a pastor, he probably runs youth programs at his church. He has to cancel them all until this is straightened out. He currently fails the state-required background check for working with kids, because he has an arrest record. There's a good chance he would be committing a felony if he continue holding his regular youth group meetings. Lots
ask are am I free to go? (Score:2)
ask are am I free to go? and if they say no then say I want an attorney
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What on earth was their justification for making an arrest first? Was he considered a flight risk?
Suspected of forging checks? Absolutely that's a flight risk. He's basically Leo Dicaprio in "Catch Me if You Can" at that point.
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Never, ever talk to the police. (Score:5, Informative)
The guy's first mistake was thinking he could somehow talk to the police himself and "clear things up". You will never, ever succeed at that. Always consult a lawyer first, and always have your lawyer talk to the police on your behalf. And I haven't seen a link to James Duane's famous Don't Talk to the Police [youtube.com] video in a while, which explains why this is the case a lot better than I could in a couple of paragraphs.
Re:How do they make an informed decision (Score:2)
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Anything you say may be used against you. Once said it cannot be used to defend you.
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The guy's first mistake was thinking he could somehow talk to the police himself and "clear things up". You will never, ever succeed at that.
In America anyway. In much of the rest of the world the police are not professional thugs.
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The guy's first mistake was thinking he could somehow talk to the police himself and "clear things up". You will never, ever succeed at that.
In America anyway. In much of the rest of the world the police are not professional thugs.
Apparently the world disagrees with you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
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You are aware that the countries in your wikipedia link are listed alphabetical and not by corruptness?
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You are aware that the countries in your wikipedia link are listed alphabetical and not by corruptness?
Not certain how that is relevant. Unless you are making an argument that corruption is alphatebetically arranged, least to highest, therefore as starting with "U", the United States is more corrupt than countries starting with "T", and less corrupt than countries starting with "V" are more corrupt.
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Well, the same can be said for your post. Corruption will always be around as long as there are humans, but that wasn't what the parent argued. He argued that in the rest of the world they are not professional thugs .
Whether that's correct or not is debatable, but presumably he meant in the rest of the civilized world. And I've never seen a police officer threaten with - and resort to - torture (electric chocks) on the spot, instantaneously and without hesitation when their victim is not 100% submissive and
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Apparently the world disagrees with you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
You proved me point poetically. People are too concerned with posting lists of links than to actually read what they are about. You posted an alphabetical list. A single police officer getting in trouble for some corruption related issue, even when identified internally by the police and handled with justice would qualify a country to be on that list.
Your ignorance is perpetuating hate and stupidity.
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Any testimony given to the police can not be used to your benefit in a trial
You've already made a decision about why you're talking to the police. The vast majority of people advise to never talk to police period. If you're doing it in your defense then obviously never do so without a lawyer.
If the police want to talk to you, have a lawyer present.
And you're back to that generalisation. There are many reasons a police officer may want to talk to you that has nothing to do with them wanting to take you to trial. My own experiences: a) I was a witness of something I didn't realise was a crime in progress, b) I was a victim of a crime I did
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The problem is, many/most people believe in the presumption of innocence and that if you are innocent you have nothing to fear. (its the reason why they are not concerned with the invasion of privacy by the police and other government agencies, in their mind, since they are "innocent" they have nothing to fear and only the "bad guys" will be impacted by this. But the reality is, the system wants its piece of meat in whatever way it can get. It doesn't love the hunt, in fact it HATES the hunt.. so anything
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The guy's first mistake was thinking he could somehow talk to the police himself and "clear things up".
His first mistake was choosing to do business with the career criminals at Wells Fargo. They're well-known to be thieves and liars. Why willfully associate with a criminal conspiracy?
Why bother? (Score:4, Insightful)
Anybody still using Wells Fargo as a bank at this time should be charged - with criminal stupidity.
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Several years ago I closed my WF account and was surprised to keep getting statements for a $5.00 balance. So I went and closed it again, but then kept getting statements for a $0.05 balance. I had to go see them a third time to get it closed for real.
Someone really didn't want to report a decrease in their number of customers.
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It's said there are two kinds of Wells Fargo customers - those who have been fucked over by Wells Fargo and those who haven't yet been.
You have to handle the big banks like this:
https://youtu.be/3ctLEGrOmf4 [youtu.be]
(and buy your next meal with crypto)
Wells-Fargo is a criminal organization (Score:4, Interesting)
Mandatory Arbitration will Kill the Suit (Score:4, Insightful)
If he has an account with Wells Fargo then one of the things he had to agree to was mandatory arbitration.
Re:Mandatory Arbitration will Kill the Suit (Score:5, Insightful)
If he has an account with Wells Fargo then one of the things he had to agree to was mandatory arbitration.
Ah, a non-lawyer posts how the law works. It's a valid point you raise, but it may not matter. I've got friends who are lawyers and I have learned a lot about how the law really works from them. I can assure you that it still may be possible to sue Wells Fargo even if the customer agreed to arbitration. The arbitration clause may not cover this kind of conduct. Also, even when people agree to clauses like this, it's still possible to argue that the customer was coerced into signing it. We'll see what happens in court.
While that's technically true (Score:3)
Wouldnâ(TM)t they have records? (Score:3)
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Wait, what? "Who would the jury believe"??? (Score:2)
That kind of retort honestly makes me think that the investigator who said that was involved in a conspiracy to frame the guy.
Who says that except someone who knows that they are lying, or at least consciously realizes there is some significant probability that the information they have is in error.
Nobody with any integri
A Lawyer's advice... (Score:2)
"I want to speak to my attorney".
And to say nothing without the presence and counsel of my attorney.
It is better to be more suspicious (in this type of situation) than trusting.
The Well Fargo business plan (Score:3)
Practice what you preach (Score:2)
A Methodist pastor undoubtedly would have preached about forgiveness many times, that being one of the primary Christian principles.
This would have been a perfect chance for the pastor to forgive Wells Fargo and the police. But, NOOOO!
I'd like to listen to his next sermon and see what he has to say for himself.
Good thing he was white! (Score:2)
The age old adage still applies (Score:2)
The age old adage still applies... never talk to the police. The police are law enforcers, they are not there to protect you. Sometimes when they act as enforcers they protect you, but you should never confuse the relationship between cause and effect.
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Bigotry is disgusting -- yours, mine, or anyone's.
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