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A Future Where Everything Becomes a Computer Is As Creepy As You Feared (nytimes.com) 144

schwit1 shares a report from The New York Times: More than 40 years ago, Bill Gates and Paul Allen founded Microsoft with a vision for putting a personal computer on every desk. [...] In recent years, the tech industry's largest powers set their sights on a new target for digital conquest. They promised wild conveniences and unimaginable benefits to our health and happiness. There's just one catch, which often goes unstated: If their novelties take off without any intervention or supervision from the government, we could be inviting a nightmarish set of security and privacy vulnerabilities into the world. And guess what. No one is really doing much to stop it. The industry's new goal? Not a computer on every desk nor a connection between every person, but something grander: a computer inside everything, connecting everyone.

Cars, door locks, contact lenses, clothes, toasters, refrigerators, industrial robots, fish tanks, sex toys, light bulbs, toothbrushes, motorcycle helmets -- these and other everyday objects are all on the menu for getting "smart." Hundreds of small start-ups are taking part in this trend -- known by the marketing catchphrase "the internet of things" -- but like everything else in tech, the movement is led by giants, among them Amazon, Apple and Samsung. [American cryptographer and computer security professional Bruce Schneier] argues that the economic and technical incentives of the internet-of-things industry do not align with security and privacy for society generally. Putting a computer in everything turns the whole world into a computer security threat. [...] Mr. Schneier says only government intervention can save us from such emerging calamities. "I can think of no industry in the past 100 years that has improved its safety and security without being compelled to do so by government."

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A Future Where Everything Becomes a Computer Is As Creepy As You Feared

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  • We are the Borg... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by magusxxx ( 751600 ) <{moc.oohay} {ta} {0002_xxxsugam}> on Saturday October 13, 2018 @09:08AM (#57471324)

    ...we know you want fries with that.

    • Re: (Score:1, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward

      Now that I'm older, I might not mind if they put a chip in my dick, so I can get a guaranteed boner, as long as no one hacks it - up down, up down...

      • Ah, a software upgrade.

      • Now that I'm older, I might not mind if they put a chip in my dick, so I can get a guaranteed boner, as long as no one hacks it - up down, up down...

        left, right, left, right, B, A, B, A, Start.

        Then she came.

        • Select, Start, you insensitive clod
        • The original Konami code is up up down down left right left right b a start.

          • That's....select start. There ARE more than one of us here.

            • by aliquis ( 678370 )

              If it actually is select start you should go change the Konami code page of Wikipedia.
              Personally I will accept their claim even though I have pressed select start too (but I'm pretty sure I've pressed BAAB (or possibly ABBA) as well.)

              • Only for multiplayer. Dropping that select in at the end moves the pip fro 1 to 2 players. :)

                • by aliquis ( 678370 )

                  It's not select to switch number of players and start to start?

                  I still have my NES (at-least I should have, I don't know where right now though) but I'm not all that sure how it worked.

                  • Yes that's right. If your playing alone, input the classic Kanomi code. If playing with your buddies, drop in a select right before the final start key of the classic code. A/I: .......B-A-Select-Start.
                    Bam. Contra for the whole room.

      • by mikael ( 484 )

        You get implantable loop recorders that record the signal of your heart:

        https://www.gosh.nhs.uk/teenag... [gosh.nhs.uk]

    • Just change "The Borg" with "government"

      "We are the Government, Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to SERVICE US. Resistance is futile."

      Futile indeed, because unlike Star Trek, there would be billions of humans that would welcome the Borg, and that is seriously not a joke! Consider that for a little peace of mind!

  • by TheNarrator ( 200498 ) on Saturday October 13, 2018 @09:12AM (#57471336)

    Just like we have the "Organic" label on electronics, we should have a new label for things like TVs and other internet connected things that says that that thing does not have a microphone or video camera. I can't bring myself to give my TV my wifi password or buy a new 4k roku box because they all have microphones and cameras now!

  • Only government? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by markdavis ( 642305 ) on Saturday October 13, 2018 @09:15AM (#57471344)

    >"Mr. Schneier says only government intervention can save us from such emerging calamities. "I can think of no industry in the past 100 years that has improved its safety and security without being compelled to do so by government."

    That seems a bit grandiose. Yes, government regulation can and does help with safety and security. It is a necessary part of the modern world. However, it also stifles freedom, the economy, and innovation. I can so no better example off the top of my head than the signs and labels on nearly everything in California that everything is "known to cause cancer". Saying that market forces have no impact on safety is just crazy. Companies are very wary of litigation and bad press; both are very powerful incentives to produce safe and desirable products.

    We always need a balance- the question is, what is that balance? Freedom/privacy and safety/security are, generally, diametrically opposed. Just as important is an educated and informed population.

    • "I can think of no industry in the past 100 years that has improved its safety and security without being compelled to do so by government."
      That seems a bit grandiose. [...] Saying that market forces have no impact on safety is just crazy. Companies are very wary of litigation and bad press; both are very powerful incentives to produce safe and desirable products.

      That's a nice argument you've got there, shame if something happened to it. Like someone pointed out that if it's so easy to come up with counterexamples, you should be able to do that.

    • "Bruce Schneier] argues that the economic and technical incentives of the internet-of-things industry do not align with security and privacy for society generally."

      THAT part is an insight that might merit further thought. How can one arrange the system such that what is good for the company is good society? When you do that, it can work really well.

      As far as the "I can think of no industry" but, Bruce is generally a smart guy, so I'm surprised to hear him start the interview with a statement that is so fl

      • by msk ( 6205 )

        Another for the automotive facts: Preston Tucker.

      • I wonder how far fire and safety regulatory orgs would get without municipal code adoption of their standards?

        • > I wonder how far fire and safety regulatory orgs would get without municipal code adoption of their standards?

          You can read all about it, because that was the case for about 100 years. Still many building codes are only *legally* enforced by municipal ordinance - within city limits. Outside city limits, people build to code because no bank is going to issue a mortgage on a non-compiant building, insurance companies won't insure it, and far fewer people would want to buy it, thereby greatly reducing the

      • by ugen ( 93902 ) on Saturday October 13, 2018 @11:29AM (#57471730)

        That's either a naive or a purposely misleading description of what has happened.

        Insurance industry required those safety improvements from manufacturers because that reduces their risk exposure. That risk exposure exists because insurance is an industry heavily regulated by the government, and exposed to the legal system in the US, and as such must pay out valid claims. If government did not regulate insurance and courts did not compel it to pay, insurance industry would have no incentive to push other industries to improve their safety standards (as evidenced by many countries where legal system is weak or corrupt, to this day).

        More directly, the US legal system gives an injured party greater ability to sue and recover damages, which in turn makes manufacturers more likely to implement safety features to protect themselves from potential liability. Again, that's part of the "government". And again we can see numerous examples of other countries with weak or corrupt legal systems, where manufacturers have no such incentives and safety is poor accordingly.

        So, it would be quite correct to say that "there's no industry that's improved safety or security without governments forcing it to do so" (or, perhaps, in a wider sense "the people forcing it to do so" and "the government" being a tool of the people, which is, presumably, true in any democratic society.

        • Many building codes are only *legally* enforced by municipal ordinance - within city limits. Outside city limits, people build to code because no bank is going to issue a mortgage on a non-compiant building, insurance companies won't insure it, and far fewer people would want to buy it, thereby greatly reducing the price the builder could sell it for. The codes are pretty well followed for construction in the county, where there is no legal requirement.

      • by Kernel Kurtz ( 182424 ) on Saturday October 13, 2018 @11:30AM (#57471736)

        How about the National Fire Protection Association, which writes the fire codes? That's another safety organization started by insurance companies, and insurance companies wouldn't insure a building unless it met fire code.

        But is the fire code truly optional, or does government use penalties to coerce you to follow them?

        Because you know some people would be totally fine building uninsured buildings......

        • > But is the fire code truly optional

          You can find out by calling your mortgage company and asking them if they'll loan you the $200,000 to build a building that ISN'T up to code. Ask your insurance company if they'll insure a building if you build it without following fire code. Ask your real estate agent how much money you'd lose track of to see it if it's not up to fire code. Or, let's try asking YOU -
          If you were hiring me as the contractor to build for you, would you want me to:
          A) build properly, to

      • Has Bruce never heard of Underwriters Laboratories (UL listed, UL registered, etc)? Underwriters means insurance companies.

        These are two, but disconnected, statements. While "Underwriters" can mean insurance companies, it doesn't have to. And doesn't in this case. It was a non-profit that suggested standards. Oh, and later teh government gave it the ability to run legally binding tests on product safety.

        And while car companies may advertise "it's safer", it does take a neutral third party observer to sa

        • When someone tells you about a topic, including its history, that's a hint that they might know something about the topic. They are therefore unlikely to be fooled by you making up stuff out of thin air.

          > While "Underwriters" can mean insurance companies, it doesn't have to. And doesn't in this case.

          It was founded by the Western Insurance Union and Chicago Underwriters Association in 1893
          https://www.ul.com/aboutul/his... [ul.com]

          > Oh, and later teh government gave it the ability to run legally binding tests

          • It was founded in 1894 by William Merrill source [wikipedia.org] I followed your link, but it was hidden behind Javascript.

            What statute is that?

            I don't know the statute (Typically the third-party rating advertised is the IIIHS ratingand don't care to look it up.) Check OSHA's list [osha.gov].

            Typically the third-party rating advertised is the IIIHS rating

            The IIHS is quoted for verbiage (top safety pick!). The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration is responsible for the 1-5 star ratings.

            Insurance companies do tend to push

            • Yes, the NHTSA rates car safety, giving each car either four or five stars. Last year 97% of vehicles received one of the the top ratings.

              One way to get a five star rating is to have the front wheels and most of the engine compartment end up in the front seats after a collision:
              https://www.thetruthaboutcars.... [thetruthaboutcars.com]

              IIHS, on the other hand, provides ratings which allow you to tell which cars are the safest and which aren't so safe. Not every car gets a trophy from IIHS because failing to distinguish safe cars fro

              • et's figure out what has ACTUALLY improved safety

                In fairness, both are important. Insurance, regulated by government, wants to drive down costs. If they can be forced to do that by raising standards instead of getting out of obligations when things happen, it's a powerful force. Meanwhile, government regulations also can have a pretty powerful effect, especially when the benefits are less concentrated.

  • I was watching an anime this week (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A.I.C.O._-Incarnation-) and one of protagonists was infiltrating a building aided by his elite hacker colleague - who was bypassing all of the computer security and lock systems as the infiltration progressed. At the final stage the protagonist was blocked from entering his target room by the simple fact that it was sealed with a physical lock and key.

  • Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Saturday October 13, 2018 @09:21AM (#57471360)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • by drinkypoo ( 153816 ) <drink@hyperlogos.org> on Saturday October 13, 2018 @09:44AM (#57471428) Homepage Journal

      Libertarianism is the opposite side of Socialism. Both are based on this premise:
      "We'll trust and magically it will all work out."

      You claim they're opposites, then claim they're the same. But socialism is explicitly the opposite of that idea. We know that wishing and hoping won't make things work, so we actually do something about it. Libertarianism is the willfully ignorant belief that anarchy does not lead to feudalism. (So is anarchism.) Libertarianism also includes the notion that pretending to have a government isn't anarchism.

      • by religionofpeas ( 4511805 ) on Saturday October 13, 2018 @09:47AM (#57471432)

        In socialism, you trust that the leadership won't be self-serving.

        • In socialism, you trust that the leadership won't be self-serving.

          That's why you (well, I) want democratic socialism. I don't know that I believe that the Democratic party is capable of delivering this, but perhaps they will get a clue and head leftward.

          • by Anonymous Coward

            How is everyone voting for their own interests (democratic socialism) different than everyone acting in their own interests (libertarianism)?

            The only way the end result would be different is if, in the democratic socialist system, a subset of the whole has more power than the rest and enforces their will.

            Democratic socialism is tyranny of the majority/minority or libertarian with more steps.

      • Comment removed based on user account deletion
        • In America the state is the market. Methinks some new words are in order
        • by UpnAtom ( 551727 )

          Socialism is based on the idea that we'll trust the state on everything and it will magically work out.

          "Everything" is a big word.

          Hard capitalism fails because it fails to recognise that most markets can't be free markets.
          Hard socialism fails because it prints money and moves towards authoritarianism.

          If you want a country without a huge chunk of people dying from poverty, socialism is inevitable.

          We can't replace most markets. Maybe one day when an AI can figure out how to connect the economy, but not today.

          There doesn't seem to be a sweet spot. There's a large range between centre-right Britain and left-w

    • It is astounding that someone that got something so wrong it was modded to insightful.

      Libertarianism is not based on trust, it is based on "responsibility" trust is not a factor, what is a factor is "distrust" of a "rich and elite Bourgeoisie" that will specifically be created by the "ruling class" that everyone ha ha ha "elects" into power. There is no socialist state that exists without the "Bourgeoisie"... a class the socialist claim to seek to destroy as they create and install them to power.

      "Both the

  • I don't want a network connected car, television, refrigerator or implanted in my body.

    I w0uld hope eventually cheap and easy would be the less preferred alternative to secure; But human nature being what it is will ignore security until it bites them in the ass.

    When people's computer implants become more common than insulin pumps, pacemakers and cardiac monitors, it would behoove them to not skimp on security; This is probably the next great digital divide,,,

  • 10 years for items that cost more than $1000. All bug fixing costs covered, including disassembly and assembly where the product is a component. If a bug isn't fixed within a month, money back.

  • by andydread ( 758754 ) on Saturday October 13, 2018 @09:28AM (#57471378)
    With all these "things" running Linux at its core it seems FOSS has won.
    • by Anonymous Coward

      Putting it another way, don't you mean that FOSS has become a threat to us all?

    • by FeelGood314 ( 2516288 ) on Saturday October 13, 2018 @09:34AM (#57471392)
      These are running on sub $1 processors only doing very simple things like turning a light on or off. Even something as complicated as your dishwasher doesn't need an OS. I know this will horrify some programmers but you can actually schedule multiple things to happen in a single program and create something that is simpler, easier to debug and easier to get to 99% working without an OS.
      • by religionofpeas ( 4511805 ) on Saturday October 13, 2018 @09:49AM (#57471436)

        If you want the $1 device to monitor your behavior and keep wireless contact with cloud servers, you'll probably want an OS to make things easier.

      • I know this will horrify some programmers but you can actually schedule multiple things to happen in a single program and create something that is simpler, easier to debug and easier to get to 99% working without an OS.

        Want to horrify them even more? A lot of this stuff can be also done with purely analog electronics and electromechanical devices.

        • Then again, an electro-mechanical timer will wear out, a well-designed microcontroller talking to some solid-state power switches with a few sealed buttons for input should last decades.
          • by Anonymous Coward
            You had to replace worn out and/or broken parts before now you have to ensure that this IoT piece gets current version of certificates and security SW or else you will not be able to control it in a few years time. Happened to me already that to access my home NAS to update its security SW I had to use an old firefox because the new one would not work.
    • by spiritplumber ( 1944222 ) on Saturday October 13, 2018 @10:24AM (#57471526) Homepage
      That's only true if it's possible to reflash it.
    • I thought everyone was dumping Linux for Android/Fuchsia/Googleware.

  • by Gravis Zero ( 934156 ) on Saturday October 13, 2018 @09:38AM (#57471406)
  • ZigBee - Security (Score:5, Interesting)

    by FeelGood314 ( 2516288 ) on Saturday October 13, 2018 @09:43AM (#57471424)
    Most of these devices are running ZigBee. ZigBee is a suite of "layers". The MAC layer is 802.15.4, network is ZigBee Pro, the application is a binary format call ZigBee Cluster Library. (Google is pushing Thread which is 802.15.4, Thread network layer, ZigBee cluster library for the application). ZigBee Smart Energy is the variant in your electric meter on the side of your house. It uses certificates, a long unique joining code, and a key agreement and certificate authentication scheme call EC-MQV to provide security. Thread has pretty good security, they use a Password Authenticated Key agreement and strong security at every level of communication. Unfortunately, in most other versions of ZigBee security is trumped by convenience.
  • But it'll be a race to see if that dystopia arrives before the planet melts. http://www.ipcc.ch/ [www.ipcc.ch]

    Pass the popcorn.

  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • We need the government to protect our privacy.
  • "Bill Gates and Paul Allen founded Microsoft with a vision for putting a personal computer on every desk."
    No its more like Gates and Allen had a vision for pirating CP/M.

    Its another gold rush, this time for telemetry data that marketing and espionage pays dollars for.

  • They spelled Steve Jobs, Steve Wozniak, and Apple wrong in the title. Even the revisionist history in the summary is wrong. IBM created the PC, not Microsoft.
  • It's very rare that the government will prohibit the collection of data, they want it and can usually get it through defining it as third party information, rubber stamp warrants, national security letters and if not via legally sanctioned or unsanctioned spy programs. What they don't want is a public backlash were people refuse to provide data because it'll be abused, so they'll sometimes stop insurance companies and whatnot from using the data but only because it's good for them. I think anyone who believ

    • Good point. I have no sympathy for these big companies, but they are operating in a capitalist system trying to make money. If regulation and public demand let them do this stuff, then why wouldn't they?

      The key area that doesn't get a lot of air-time - mentioned above - is how consumers can make *informed* decisions. If products were forced to declare what telemetry was going, what got collected and how it would be used, at least people could make an informed decision about it. Lots of users would be happy

  • by grumling ( 94709 ) on Saturday October 13, 2018 @11:32AM (#57471740) Homepage

    It isn't that a computer in every device is an issue, it's that these computers have to be free as in beer. We've squandered the massive decrease in network cost to the point of demanding no incremental increase in cost of smart devices vs traditional. I'm all for paying a little more for a smart thermostat that doesn't tell some ad server when I get home from work. And I'm happy to pay a little for firmware upgrades to my smart switch if it means my house isn't going to become part of a bot network. And no way do I see any value in bringing microphones into my home that offer "free" services in exchange for listening to keywords and embedded sub audible sounds in TV shows. But it seems like these Internet companies (and by extension IOT companies) have such little faith in their product that they feel it necessary to give it away for nothing and then try to survive by introducing third parties for their income. Until that changes (and it doesn't help the cause when the tech press howls about the $1000 iPhone vs the $200 Android phone with "free" OS), we're going to continue down the dystopian path.

  • "If their novelties take off without any intervention or supervision from the government."

    Seriously?? The government would LOVE to pool all these 'novelties' into a citizen control mechanism. From license plate readers to facial recognition, ALL this computing power will be used to control people BY the government. This is not OSHA we're talking about here. This is Homeland Security setting up shop inside your house n order to "save" us. I'm glad I'm old. I do not look forward to the jack boot government's

    • by Anonymous Coward

      I keep watching more and more video cameras being rolled out without vandalism. The citizenry and even the criminals are apathetic, unaware, or unwilling to do what is necessary to regain our freedom and anonymity.

      Everyone is happy with their cell phones, everyone (even criminals!) is happy with their social networking account, everyone is happy giving over all their biometrics, and everyone is happy being videotaped and facially recognized everywhere they go. Enabling but not enforcing has given them tacit

  • And they won't stop anything because all the surveillance possibilities and data that they too want access to.

  • I have lived with the nightmare of smart devices since the end of the ice box era. Yes, our first refrigerator was a modern miracle that put our ice man out of work. My parents were amazed at its ability to keep milk cold and fish frozen for days, weeks and months. I observed a dark side that older people never considered: the light inside. Oh, they said 'the light goes out when the door is closed', as if it were nothing; as if we could just trust Jesus that it was so. But how can we be sure? None of my eff

  • by gweihir ( 88907 ) on Saturday October 13, 2018 @02:51PM (#57472486)

    You mean the creeps that want to backdoor everything and compromise all security in order to be able to listen to and record everything? Fat chance. These people will only make everything worse.

    Bruce Schneier has an irrational trust in authority. He really should know better by now.

    • You mean the creeps that want to backdoor everything and compromise all security in order to be able to listen to and record everything? Fat chance. These people will only make everything worse.

      Bruce Schneier has an irrational trust in authority. He really should know better by now.

      Everyones under the naive idea the government is not owned by the same people in the private sector promoting IoT. The reality is all governments are now at war with their respective publics because they are concerned about the global political awakening.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]

  • Mr. Schneier let me help you with you inability to understand about safety and industry. The National Electrical Code which fundamentally improved safety in the electrical industry is part of the National Fires Code, which fundamentally improved safety in the building industry is published by the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) a private trade association. It was not imposed by the government.

    Unlike what some people would like you to believe, it is not necessary or usually even advisable for gov

  • by Tom ( 822 )

    "I can think of no industry in the past 100 years that has improved its safety and security without being compelled to do so by government."

    Not in the US, that's for sure.

    There is a big culture issue here. In Europe, we like to play it safe and slow. Companies are founded by people not looking for an IPO and early retirement, but those hoping to create a legacy that future generations can continue. Many of our companies, including some of the biggest, are still earned by the family that founded them.

    This creates a relatively risk-averse business culture in which opportunities are sometimes not taken. You americans call it "socialism".

    The US has

  • If their novelties take off without any intervention or supervision from the government, we could be inviting a nightmarish set of security and privacy vulnerabilities into the world.

    And what makes anyone naive enough to assume that government "supervision" would somehow magically immunize us from said vulnerabilities? Or that government wouldn't misuse data gathering to commit human rights abuses?

    Sigh...why is the default knee-jerk reaction to a potential crisis almost always "hey, let's find a way to depend on GOVERNMENT to fix this for us! Government is mighty, all knowing, all seeing, efficient, incorruptible, and always benevolent, right?"

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