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Privacy The Internet

Reddit's Case for Anonymity on the Internet (theatlantic.com) 361

An anonymous reader shares a report: All that's required to create an account and post on any of Reddit's 1.2 million forums is an email address, a username, and a password. You don't need to tell the company your birthday, your gender, or even your real name. As Huffman put it on Thursday at the Aspen Ideas Festival, which is co-hosted by the Aspen Institute and The Atlantic, "Reddit doesn't want the burden of personal information ... and is not selling personal information."

Huffman argued that anonymity on Reddit actually makes using the site "more like a conversation one has in real life" than other exchanges on the internet. "When people detach from their real-world identities, they can be more authentic, more true to themselves," he claimed.

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Reddit's Case for Anonymity on the Internet

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  • Simple argument... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Kenja ( 541830 ) on Monday July 02, 2018 @11:54AM (#56880178)
    I have a fairly unique name, and I purchased a house, putting my name and address on the public record. Frankly, I don't want you crazy people to know where I live.
    • by Calydor ( 739835 ) on Monday July 02, 2018 @12:00PM (#56880220)

      So many times this. My real name together with the country I live in will yield exactly one match. Now consider shit like SWATting and there is no way in f'ing Hell I'm letting anyone but close friends come CLOSE to finding out what my real name is.

    • Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)

      by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Monday July 02, 2018 @12:04PM (#56880248)
      Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • I grew up on the internet (we got dialup when I was 15), we were always 'anonymous' as we could be. Mainly making up stupid 15 year old-eqsue usernames.

      The problem with a lot of people is that they never update those usernames. I've found the real person connected to a Reddit comment because their username was the same they had attached to Facebook, SoundCloud and a bunch of other sites.

      I actually went back to facebook, under 2 pseudonyms completely disconnected from anyone I know because sadly thats where

    • Slashdot is one of the few places where I post with my real name. (I created this account when I was much younger and don't feel like switching to a new account.) For everything else, I don't want people to know who I am because of the possibility that you could track me down. Sure, there are a lot of Jason Levine's (138 according to HowManyOfMe.com), but a read through my comment history on Reddit or other sites could easily narrow that down.

      A few years ago, I attracted the attention of a cyber-stalker. Sh

    • I have a fairly unique name, and I purchased a house, putting my name and address on the public record. Frankly, I don't want you crazy people to know where I live.

      I have some bad news for you, Kenneth Dyers.

  • by Anonymous Coward

    Huffman argued that anonymity on Reddit actually makes using the site "more like a conversation one has in real life"

    Reddit is more like being told there are cool kids hanging out, chilling, and having a good time, but finding out that it's just a couple of retards mumbling to each other.

    • No matter how cool you are, High School kids conversations go like this.

      Teenage one: Me, space, Me, space, Me, space, space, Me
      Teenage two: space, Me, space, Me,space, Me, space, space
      Teenage three: space, space, space, space, space, space, Me, space

      There isn't much listening or conversation just people talking about themselves and being quite waiting for the other to finish.

  • by AlanBDee ( 2261976 ) on Monday July 02, 2018 @12:01PM (#56880226)

    I can tell you from my experience on Facebook that having your account tied to your personal identity doesn't mean shit for how credible your posts are. Maybe knowing that on Reddit any ol' bot can easily post something means people are far more critical with post/comments on Reddit then on Facebook.

    I'm sure we can all agree that more people need to think more critically when reading things they read online; like that fact that this comment is based on one person's experience and therefore cannot be trusted as a true representation of the crap posts online.

    • by Okian Warrior ( 537106 ) on Monday July 02, 2018 @12:21PM (#56880418) Homepage Journal

      I can tell you from my experience on Facebook that having your account tied to your personal identity doesn't mean shit for how credible your posts are.

      You're missing the point.

      It isn't for credibility, it's for control. If you say something that Facebook doesn't like, it can ban you, and if you're *required* to prove your identity Facebook can keep you banned. (Gun enthusiast sites, for instance.)

      There's also the issue of consequences. If you say something that the community doesn't like (but is otherwise legal), the community can pound you into the ground for it. For example, harass your employer until you get fired (this actually happens).

      While there is certainly a lot of trolls and general assinine behaviour on the net, forcing people to use their real identity has more important consequences. It's throwing the baby out with the bath water.

      It's about control, not credibility.

      • Yep. This is why 4Chan ends up being way more civilized than you would otherwise expect. Morally bankrupt but civilized.
    • It's like with Slashdot. You can 'earn' credibility by actually posting good content.

      Uniden's downfall was that he cheated the system to get himself started.

      AWildSketchAppears, shittymorph, are all novelty accounts that became Reddit popular without being tied to a real human.

      In a lot of subreddits there are 'credible' users like /r/askhistorians or /r/askscience.

      But if you're expecting someone famous to show up to /r/pics to refute something as himself, don't count on it.

  • Can Sacrificing Privacy Stomp Out Disinformation Online [theatlantic.com]?

    According to Dipayan Piku Ghosh, a digital-privacy expert at Harvard’s Kennedy School of Government,“the commercial interests of internet platforms like Facebook and those of disinformation operators are at some points aligned.”

    Ghosh specified that keeping users engaged for as long as possible is a core goal for both internet companies and entities spreading false information. “For the internet platform, it allows them to create more ad space and collect more data,” he said on Thursday at the Aspen Ideas Festival, which is co-hosted by the Aspen Institute and The Atlantic. “For disinformation operators, it allows them to try to persuade the individual. And that alignment is what we need to really try to solve.”

    Renée DiResta, who works as Data for Democracy’s head of policy, offered one possible solution—but it’s a bitter remedy for those who would wish to hold their data close: “Really, the solution ... is better information sharing,” she said on Thursday.

    DiResta’s vision of online truth enforcement consists of a “triangle” of independent and academic researchers, researchers at big tech companies, and the government, all exchanging what they know and working in concert to stomp out disinformation. For some, that’s a chilling proposition—after all, it was data sharing between academics and Facebook [theatlantic.com] that allowed Cambridge Analytica to create 30 million psychographic voter profiles without users’ consent. But without data and analysis flowing between each point of the triangle, DiResta argued, there’s no hope of triumphing over nefarious actors in a disinformation arms race.

    • When Renée DiResta shares her medical history, pornography habits, and other private information with the rest of the world, I might take her proposal seriously.

      What a fucking awful idea though. Data for Democracy, indeed. I didn't realize that Stasi were operating under a new name now.
  • I like real names (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Bruce Perens ( 3872 ) <bruce@perens.com> on Monday July 02, 2018 @12:07PM (#56880264) Homepage Journal
    I use my real name here, and on Reddit. It's a credibility thing. I did get sued for $3 Million for something I wrote on my personal blog. That person ended up swearing a $300,000 bond for my defense, which should be a warning to others.
    • by Anonymous Coward

      You're an example of why you shouldn't post personal info online.

    • Re:I like real names (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Calydor ( 739835 ) on Monday July 02, 2018 @12:16PM (#56880358)

      You are also considered important enough that DDOS mitigation services go way above and beyond when you get slammed. They're not gonna do that for any random Joe.

      It's a matter of celebrity status, if you will. You have a background, a name, a history that all add up to making you Someone. That is not the case for the vast majority of people on the internet - for them the best defense is not in having everyone know their name, but in making sure no one knows that name.

      • This is a chicken-and-egg thing, though. I got the notoriety because I made myself a public figure on the net.
        • Unfortunately, in contrast to you, most people (would) gain notoriety by making asses of themselves in public.

          Myself included, probably.

        • by Tailhook ( 98486 )

          This is a chicken-and-egg thing

          No, it isn't. Few can be notable, by definition. Few will, therefore, ever enjoy the independence your status provides you. Most have three choices on the net; flatter the prevailing group-think, be silent or use anonymity. Think hard before having the last removed please.

    • I use my real name here, and on Reddit. It's a credibility thing. I did get sued for $3 Million for something I wrote on my personal blog. That person ended up swearing a $300,000 bond for my defense, which should be a warning to others.

      The fact that you won the case is immaterial. You still got attacked from something you wrote online. If you were anonymous that likely wouldn't have been an issue. Your life was made more difficult BECAUSE of not being anonymous.

      As a poster to Slashdot, I don't care if your name is Bruce, Bob, or Betty. It's nice that you have a name (as opposed to being an anonymous coward) so that I can perhaps remember you from previous comments and it gives meaning if I can put a comment in perspective to other com

    • That works for you (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Okian Warrior ( 537106 ) on Monday July 02, 2018 @12:36PM (#56880584) Homepage Journal

      I use my real name here, and on Reddit. It's a credibility thing. I did get sued for $3 Million for something I wrote on my personal blog. That person ended up swearing a $300,000 bond for my defense, which should be a warning to others.

      I use my real name here, and on Reddit. It's a credibility thing. I did get sued for $3 Million for something I wrote on my personal blog. That person ended up swearing a $300,000 bond for my defense, which should be a warning to others.

      Suppose you say something that the community doesn't like. Suppose it's OK to say that today, but tomorrow the community standards change. (Such as the thing with Apu in "The Simpsons". Poking fun at Indian convenience store owners was OK up until recently.)

      (Or gun enthusiasts.)

      The community could ostracize you, they could call up your employer and complain about you. Your business could be downrated to 1 star on Yelp (or GlassDoor or whatever). You could be doxxed, you could be swatted. If you were a Facebook user, Facebook could ban you, and the community could talk about you all day and you wouldn't be able to respond. Your voice of protest wouldn't be heard.

      And as to your court case, how much did you have to pay up front to fund that? And it was a gamble up front, meaning that you might not have gotten that investment back. Additionally, how much of your time and energy went into proving yourself in a court of law?

      You're honestly saying that regular people - people full-time of families and jobs, who don't have ten grand to wager on a court case - should shoulder that sort of burden?

      Using your real name works for you, but don't expect it to be the right solution for everyone.

      • You're honestly saying that regular people - people full-time of families and jobs, who don't have ten grand to wager on a court case - should shoulder that sort of burden?

        Using your real name works for you, but don't expect it to be the right solution for everyone.

        And I think you just hit on one of the ideals that Americans should be striving for: The freedom of an individual to make a choice. Bruce has made the choice to become a public figure and stand up for what he believes in. Other people might ma

    • Re:I like real names (Score:4, Interesting)

      by lkcl ( 517947 ) <lkcl@lkcl.net> on Monday July 02, 2018 @12:59PM (#56880812) Homepage

      I use my real name here, and on Reddit. It's a credibility thing. I did get sued for $3 Million for something I wrote on my personal blog. That person ended up swearing a $300,000 bond for my defense, which should be a warning to others.

      that's down to creating a "brand" - a trademark in which people can "trust". it's a very reasonable, rational argument that assumes that there is a central "higher" authority to which one may appeal in the instance(s) where attackers make attempts to "phish" that name "bruce perens". for example by attackers registering bruceperens.info, or bruceperens.io, or bruceperens.name and so on. all of these you can go to a court of law for trademark infringement - the "higher authority" - or present a copyright registration certificate to nominet - the "higher authority" - and so on.

      now let's roll back about 15+ years, to before these insane and extremely dangerous real-name policies existed. you're on the internet, it's lawless, you have *no* idea who you are talking to. you have no idea if they're a real person. you have no idea if they're who they say they are... and ABSOLUTELY EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT.

      consequently, because everyone KNOWS that you absolutely do not, under ANY circumstances, EVER trust someone by their ***NAME AND NAME ALONE***, everything's fine. even people who use GPG *know* that the digital signature does not authenticate the *person*, it authenticates the *key* that the person is *responsible* for. or, if they don't, they're damn fools, but that's another story.

      now let's move forward to the incredibly dangerous and extremely insidious but "perfectly justified" real-name policies. google. facebook. establishing themselves as "god". the "higher authority" to which we must appeal. the "higher authority" that we must place our absolute absolute faith and trust in, or be told "go fuck yourself and oh incidentally we're terminating access to 10 years worth of business email (and we don't give a fuck) because you REFUSED to accept our google+ real-name policy".

      what effect do these "real name" policies have? where previously EVERYONE KNEW that you NEVER trusted an online identity... suddenly we can?? oink?

      and what happens when that system fails? what happens when someone claims via one of these "real name" policies to be the President of the United States and sends out a "fake message" that there's a nuclear strike been ordered? what happens when someone claims to be their doctor, and orders them to send pictures of themselves naked for quotes medical review quotes? what happens when the "real named" account is COMPROMISED?

      it's *unbelievably* dangerous to blindly place our trust and faith in these criminally-pathological companies that are so deluded by their belief that they can take away our right to be responsible for our own lives and decisions that we LET them, en-masse, sleep-walking into incredibly dangerous scenarios.

      PLEASE WAKE UP, people. take responsibility for checking if people are who they say they are NOT by their "real name" but by heuristics on their *behaviour*.

      i got phished on facebook by someone pretending to be my deputy head-master from 30 years ago. it took me almost 10 minutes to work out that they weren't that person. facebook had allowed the phisher to use the EXACT same name - and their photograph. if instead facebook had gone by "handles", like people used to 15+ years ago, (and like yahoo still does) the extra numbers on the end of the name would have given the game away almost immediately.

    • So I guess one of my favorite statements you made in "Revolution OS" is no longer quite accurate then, huh?

      "Now if you're like just a guy on the net who's not doing this for a job at all and you sort of write a manifesto and it spreads out through the
      world and a year later the vice-president of Microsoft is talking about it you'd think you were on drugs wouldn't you?"

      That's OK - I still like it :)

      For those bashing Bruce over this, or pointing out that he's Somebody and so "its different", I'd like to remind

  • Then tell me they don't want your data and don't sell it. https://www.redditinc.com/poli... [redditinc.com]
  • by Lucas123 ( 935744 ) on Monday July 02, 2018 @12:09PM (#56880292) Homepage
    "When people detach from their real-world identities, they can be more authentic, more true to themselves," he claimed. And in many cases, that means more trollish, uncivilized and downright nasty. They write and post things they'd never do if their identities were known; that's why many media sites require an authentic (or at least an attempt at it) Facebook or Twitter account. Zero accountability isn't always (and typically isn't) a good thing.
    • The only reason Facebook orignally wanted personal info is so that people could find their "friends". Similarly, LinkedIn has legitimate reasons for asking you to list where you have worked in the past. It is NOT about accountability, since you can lie all you want on those sites (and many do).

      But Reddit, Slashdot, etc, have no legitimate interest in knowing who you are. But there are ways to know who's worth listening to and who should be given less credence - ie, modding, anonymous cowards, who recently

    • So you're in favor of self-censorship? That people shouldn't be able to express unpopular ideas unless their real-life identity can be harassed or punished?

      The fact that my name is attached is precisely why Facebook only gets non-controversial, non-personal content. I only post about things I see out in public, or info about upcoming events or recent news.

      I have a diversity of friends and I'm not interested in damaging my "brand" by posting a bunch of personal content for them to see. Just like Hillary

    • There is a pretty simple solution here. Don't get offended at what anonymous people who never met you in real life say on the Internet. That's your choice and you are in control. On the flip side, you get real feedback on ideas. If you ask a question with a genuine desire to know the answer, you are more likely to find it on an anonymous forum.
  • They can be less authentic, more false to themselves. It's a matter of personalities, non persons.

  • by TheDarkener ( 198348 ) on Monday July 02, 2018 @12:15PM (#56880352) Homepage

    Some of you may not know the glory of anonymity in the BBS (Bulletin Board System) days. But it really was glorious. Everyone had a "handle" or "alias". It was generally encouraged to be anonymous online back then, or at least be something that contrasts who you were IRL. It was part of the fun. It was part of the drive of going online in the first place, it was like role playing.

    Many people I knew had complete online alter-egos based around characters they'd play in door games (hence my alias TheDarkener, a character I created when playing L.O.R.D.). I was a young teenager then and it was absolutely liberating to be able to converse with people of all ages and, for the most part, know they only knew of my intellect, my character and not my IRL age (for obviously bias may come into play).

    Sure, there were boards that demanded you put in your real name, had a callback verification system so they'd know your real phone number..and those boards were hardly as popular as those who didn't do that.

    Remember the movie "Hackers"? When Joey said, "I need a handle, man. I don't have an identity 'till I have a handle!" Man, I miss that. Now there's pressure for online platforms to ensure people are putting in their real names, real birthdays, upload photo IDs for verification, all this crap..what happened to the innocence of imagination? Oh yeah, it got crushed by the Internet becoming a global economic machine, and the money people got their grubby mitts into how it should work.

    • by Khyber ( 864651 )

      "Some of you may not know the glory of anonymity in the BBS (Bulletin Board System) days."

      Uh, no, you had no anonymity. CID before you connected to my BBS pretty much ensured that, and most of you had no clue about it back then.

      Being able to call someone back after they tried to raise hell on my system was always fun. Having a child berating you for being stupid enough to not cover your tracks before trying stupid shit pretty much got most of them to never try connecting again.

    • Some of you may not know the glory of anonymity in the BBS (Bulletin Board System) days. But it really was glorious.

      Anonymous to other users, sure.....but not the SysOps. Most of the boards I remember required call-back authentication* when you registered an account. You had to place some fairly heavy blind trust that they didn't do anything stupid with your phone number. I had a friend who started to get trolled by a SysOp, which is pretty serious when it's a phone call.

      *For those of you too young to remember, when you went to register for an account on a BBS, you had to provide the telephone# that you were calling f

      • Callback verification was not employed by all boards. Like I said in OP, those boards, at least in my area, were less frequented because of this.

        • Unfortunately that wasn't the case for me. There were probably only about 6-7 boards in my area that you didn't have to dial long distance for, and I think all but two required call back :-(

  • by what about ( 730877 ) on Monday July 02, 2018 @12:32PM (#56880526) Homepage

    I left reddit since it did not allow me to browse anonymously anymore, had to register to just lookig to it.
    And now they say that they value being anonymous ? Lie, a plain lie.
    A verified Email is all it takes to track a user , build a profile and tag it back to a real person.
    Then, the next step will come in: disappearing articles from your view, your posts will not get upvoted.
    Nothing new, history is bound to repeat itself, worse.

    • They still allow anonymous browsing. I can go into Incognito Mode (to ensure no login cookies) and browse Reddit forums all I like. Perhaps a few sub-Reddits have login requirements built in, but none that I frequent do.

  • Most sites are like Reddit, in this regard. Pretty sure /. is another. Indeed, exceptions are relatively rare, though one of those exceptions does happen to currently be pretty popular (Facebook).
  • by DatbeDank ( 4580343 ) on Monday July 02, 2018 @12:37PM (#56880588)

    I live in a place where it's unfashionable to say certain things. The only reason it's unfashionable is because a vocal minority have deemed my speech "hateful" even though it's free.

    The fact that my free speech can now get me barred from establishments is on par with the ideologies we conquered in the 20th century.

    I should be able to say:
    1.that abortion should/should not be abolished
    2.gays can/can not marry
    3. women are/are not fundamentally different than men
    4. Illegal immigrants should/should not be able to stay in my country
    5. Islam is/ is not a violent, hateful, and supremacist organization.
    6. Apple and Macs are / are not the best computers around.
    7. PCs are / are not the best computers around.

    Without fear of reprisal or imprisonment. The fact that statements like this are being punished in western democracies is frightening and a sign we are in critical decline.

    • You should also be able to say that the earth is/is not flat and that the sun does/does not revolve around the earth. You certainly shouldn't be imprisoned. But you'll have to define reprisal a bit more specifically. If you are saying any of these things too loudly, I may not want you in my establishment. (Well if I had one that is) Many of the things you listed above can be said in both hateful and non-hateful ways. So how you say those things would be a factor as well.
      • If you are saying any of these things too loudly, I may not want you in my establishment. (Well if I had one that is) Many of the things you listed above can be said in both hateful and non-hateful ways. So how you say those things would be a factor as well.

        If he said them elsewhere, not in your establishment?

        Like, say, in a discussion forum, which is supposedly for discussion?

        • Who do you know who has ever been banned from an establishment because of something they said on a discussion forum? If that happened to me, I sure wouldn't be bragging about it. You'd have to be expressing some pretty extreme viewpoints. And at that point, maybe what the OP is saying really is dangerous/hateful.
    • I agree with most of your examples. However, saying that Windows PC are the best computers is clearly hate speech and should be illegal.

      • As a Mac user on the desktop, a unix user for servers and a PC user for gaming, I think your narrow opinion should be revised.

        Windows PCs are the best gaming computers.
        Unix PCs are the best servers.
        Macs are the best desktop computers... apart from the butterfly keyboards, the OLED touch bar, the forced thermal limits of the CPUs and GPUs, the limited or absent upgradability of RAM and storage drives, the single-mindedness of thin above everything else including usability. Apart from those flaws, Macs are th

    • In my view it is the same to refuse service to somebody for their political affiliation, or because they are gay. That restaurant red hen refused service to Sarah Sanders is on the same level as the guy refusing to decorate a cake for gay marriage. Your religion preclude you to give anti abortion pill at a drugstore ? get another job. Your opinion is that you don't want to give cake for gay marriage ? Get another job. You don't want to serve politician in restaurant ? get another job. Etc rinse and repeat.
  • by DontBeAMoran ( 4843879 ) on Monday July 02, 2018 @01:27PM (#56881050)

    "When people detach from their real-world identities, they can be more authentic, more true to themselves."

    And we all know how that [penny-arcade.com] ends.

    SHITCOCK!

  • Real adults like myself use their real name.

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