After Iceland and Germany, Now France Declares War on the Gender Wage Gap (fastcompany.com) 293
France says it wants to make good on at least one-third of its motto of "liberte, egalite, and fraternite," by ensuring pay equality. From a report: The French government announced it is devising a "tough, concrete" plan to make the gender pay gap as much a thing of the past as Madame DeFarge's knitting habit. Per the Associated Press, France's plan for pay equity is still a work in progress. However, legislators may require companies to release the average salaries of their male and female employees and analyze them for disparities.
Fair Comparison (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Fair Comparison (Score:5, Insightful)
It should go without saying that age, experience, and skill set stats must also be included.
And while we're at it, we should also make a note to release all info about who knows who and for how long as well as stats on who has been on which project for how long.
Y'know, now that I think about, it's probably also crucial to get some figures on who lives in which neighborhood because the cost of living and thus also salaries varies by region.
What if we just cut to the chase and straight up mandate how much companies must pay their workers?
Surely that won't drive jobs away... because we'll all be so multi-cultural and anti-sexists that our utopia will be the only place that anyone will ever want to work!
Re:Fair Comparison (Score:5, Insightful)
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Summary of your position: if men make more, it's obvious that it's deserved, and no evidence is needed to support it. But if women insist on equity, it has to be carefully justified.
Re:Fair Comparison (Score:5, Insightful)
Whoever makes the claim should make the case. All of this "listen and believe" crap we get is why fewer and fewer take the accusations at face value.
Re:Fair Comparison (Score:4, Insightful)
"All of this "listen and believe" crap we get is why fewer and fewer take the accusations at face value."
Yes, that's the point of it. They want you to listen to them and assume they are not lying for long enough to do an actual investigation. They want you to examine their claims, instead of ignoring them.
It sounds like it's working.
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Summary of your position: if men make more, it's obvious that it's deserved, and no evidence is needed to support it. But if women insist on equity, it has to be carefully justified.
Dang, where are my mod points when I need them? Someone please mod parent up faster than the trolls are modding it down.
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Not really, its recognising that pay is often down to many factors and a simplistic average is meaningless.
For example, imagine a company of 3 people - 1 practice owner and 2 receptionists to equally man the phones and ensure someone is always on duty to take calls. The boss is a man and pays himself $1m, the receptionists are a man and a women and they get paid $40,000.
If you look at the averages you'll see that there is a massive gender pay gap at that company where men get $502,000 each and the women get
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Except there is ample evidence that support the argument the pay-gap is minimal (3-5% depending on the study) after you adjust for experience on the job.
So summary of your position: "NA NA NA NA I CAN"T HEAR YOU"
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It doesn't work like that in Europe. Pay isn't based on how often you ask for a raise, or how often you switch jobs. It's based on the market rate and experience mostly, which are somewhat subjective but at least easy to compare between similar employees.
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Pay in Europe is also based on how well you can negotiate, and how much competition there is in the work force, on top of how much experience you have.
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Talk for your own office.
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Such a fine grained level of meritocracy is impossible though. You can't even objectively evaluate a person's skills and experience with that degree of accuracy.
When you see a job advert that says "minimum 5 years C++", do you interpret that to mean 5 years working on nothing but C++, or 5 years working with C++ but also in other languages? And does it mean C++ on big projects, or on lots of little ones with simple architectures? Does it mean using all the obscure features of C++, doing UML modelling etc?
An
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> How current injustice against men
yeah, equal is unfair for men.
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Equal? No. Having to hire women instead of men if qualifications are equal? Yes.
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>Having to hire women instead of men if qualifications are equal?
BS. this is about wage. There is no mention of having to hire women.
Re:Fair Comparison (Score:4, Insightful)
Equal? No. Having to hire women instead of men if qualifications are equal? Yes.
This is a good place to interject my question.
The presumed wage gap is around 30 percent.
We'll just accept that for the purpose of argument.
It is not debateable that corporate America and other outfits want to pay as little as they can get away with. We have businesses declaring they will introduce automation specifically in order to get rid of payroll.
If women are getting paid 30 percent less and I had a business or corporation, I would not hire men - it would be all women. The amount I could save on payroll would enrich me quite a bit.
So why has this not happened? All other things being equal, who would hire any man?
Re:Fair Comparison (Score:5, Insightful)
There are multiple issues which are regularly conflated in these discussions, and often some of those issues are almost deliberately hidden in order to push the discussion in one particular direct (that direction being that any disparity is bad).
The UK just forced the top 500 companies to release this sort of information, and at a glance some of them are really bad - EasyJet (a budget airline) has a gap of over 50%, or in other words the average difference between wages paid to women is 50% that of wages paid to men. Except that men tend to be employed in the company as pilots, and women as cabin crew, which have massive differences - and it remains to be proven if that is a company culture issue or not (my guess is, not, as many airline pilots are ex-military pilots, and we are only just seeing an improvement in female military pilots, so perhaps this will resolve itself in due course).
Then you have the issue of the career gap, where women take time off to have children and return to work a year behind their male counterparts in experience, exposure etc. A very difficult one to solve - do you gift those women a year, do you hold back men for a year, what?
And yes, there are the outright legitimate arguments about women simply being paid less because they are women, and there are also the kinda legitimate arguments about different negotiating styles between sexes being an issue (but then that all depends on the job - my wife is a doctor, and a quick straw poll of her friends suggests she can demand a higher day rate as a locum precisely because she is female - more women want a female doctor for female issues, which is a good negotiating area for the locum).
Solving the legitimate issues doesn't however solve all the issues, but no one has worked out how to solve those ones without penalising companies and male workers (but some wouldn't see an issue with that at all).
Just publishing the wage gap is meaningless flame bait without a lot more information around that gap.
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Congratulations, you have ensured parents of both sexes compete fairly against one another.
That doesn't account for single men, or men that refuse to take the time off however. And this is the main issue - men don't go through the rigours of childbirth, and thus don't need recovery time - they are also less likely to be the primary care giver for any child, again tipping the scales in their favour as they stay at work and miss fewer opportunities.
I reiterate my question - are you going to force men to take
EU working time directive caps legal hours (Score:2)
EU working time directive caps legal hours
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And the job worked. I kinda have a hunch that high voltage electrician is better paid due to not really needing a pension plan if you ain't one of the more careful people on the planet is better paid than, say, hairdresser.
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You are correct that the hours worked is important fact. I pulled our door badge logs a few months ago, and even with the report screwing-up and not counting men that worked more than 24 hours straight, men still worked about 106% longer hours than the women. I think the average for women was 36 hours a week and 74 hours a week for the male engineers. Of course the women are going to make less.
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There cannot be perfect equality, but when one aggregates a huge sample, the statistical centers for each gender group should be roughly the same, because with a large enough sample, individual deviations for things like actual hours worked and the strengths and weaknesses for particular work-related skills should even-out. Of course there will be outliers, both people earning more and people earning less, and both types will have deserved and undeserved reasons, but for the vast majority it should statist
Re: Fair Comparison (Score:4, Insightful)
There cannot be perfect equality, but when one aggregates a huge sample, the statistical centers for each gender group should be roughly the same,
Why?
because with a large enough sample, individual deviations for things like actual hours worked and the strengths and weaknesses for particular work-related skills should even-out.
Except they don't. Particular groups work longer hours than others, take less vacation time and fewer sick days, work in less pleasant environments or more dangerous conditions. Particular groups also push more for raises or change jobs for increased pay.
If those groups don't represent men and women equally, their "statistical centers" would be skewed apart.
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I'm referring to jobs/workers/wages in a particular field. I am not comparing different types of jobs.
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What part of what I wrote refers to different jobs in different fields?
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You may very well be wrong even when talking about a particular field. There's no reason to a priori assume the aggregates would turn out identical.
Why wouldn't they? Unless you want to assume that one gender works harder / is smarter / is "better" than the other gender?
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Because the evidence shows that men work longer hours than women, have fewer days off sick and negotiate harder for raises. Why wouldn't that be true for people doing the same job role?
It would be horrifically inequitable if one gender got paid the same for doing less work.
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I'm referring to jobs/workers/wages in a particular field. I am not comparing different types of jobs.
But what of my situation. Same Job description, but wildly differing work outputs. One rather protected group, and another individual would would end up leaving or cutting way back on the work.
Tell me how we were going to be paid the same?
Let's take sex out of the equation This is the problem with mandating equal pay for everyone. The best tend to stagnate or leave, and then everyone settles down to whoever the laziest person is. I've seen it, and it ain't pretty.
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Why.
Because, if you didn't know if you would be among the workers making 30% less,
would you pick
a system where 50% of the workers arbitrarily make 30% less pay for the same work
or
a system where the pay for 100% of the workers was roughly the same?
I would pick the second system. I wouldn't want 50/50 odds of getting shafted.
---
I *do* think that they need to consider all the benefits, years of experience, hours worked, productivity, and so on in addition to salary however.
I once worked at a place where men w
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would you pick
a system where 50% of the workers arbitrarily make 30% less pay for the same work
or
a system where the pay for 100% of the workers was roughly the same?
Why would I pick one of those two systems, when there's a third alternative that's not only superior, but already the one that most closely matches reality: Workers getting paid according to their skills, experience and contribution.
Only pay me the same as some people that pretend to be my peers and watch me drop to a 15 hour week, during which I'll easily match their level of (non)performance.
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There cannot be perfect equality, but when one aggregates a huge sample, the statistical centers for each gender group should be roughly the same,
Why?
because with a large enough sample, individual deviations for things like actual hours worked and the strengths and weaknesses for particular work-related skills should even-out.
Except they don't. Particular groups work longer hours than others, take less vacation time and fewer sick days, work in less pleasant environments or more dangerous conditions. Particular groups also push more for raises or change jobs for increased pay.
If those groups don't represent men and women equally, their "statistical centers" would be skewed apart.
Okay, I see you just wrote the same thing as I did in answer to him. But this exactly. I did all of the hazordous duty in my group. I did the field trips and long out of town stays, I came in early and worked late, I lost vacation, and collected a half years unused sick leave when I retired. I'd also work with the suits, which for some reason they were afraid to do. I also on occasion finished their work, because they would just leave at 5, and if something was needed bu 8 am, it was me that finished it. N
Re: Fair Comparison (Score:4, Interesting)
Regarding line breaks, if I quote you, the preview shows separate lines. I'll see if it stays that way after posting.
"Some companies take advantage of female employees. Have for *decades*. That includes both male and female bosses"
Some do, the vast majority don't. Is that the standard for "institutionalised wage gap" ?
I'm in favour of merit-based hiring, so i simply do not agree with the trend for "diversity and inclusion" as the current bandwagon exists.
Apple fired a 20 year veteran, who was their "diversity chief" for only 6 months, because she would NOT discriminate against white males.
“There can be 12 white, blue-eyed, blonde men in a room and they’re going to be diverse too because they’re going to bring a different life experience and life perspective to the conversation.”
If you segregate people by race, colour, creed, sexuality, disability" and whatever other lines you want to draw, you get nowhere.
You can't campaign for "equality" while simultaneously separating people into increasingly diverse boxes that prove they're "different" and somehow need handicap bonuses like affirmative action.
It's as ridiculous as feminists one moment campaigning for "equality" by claiming they're equally competent as a man and literally "don't need a man", while simultaneously campaigning for lower standards to entry for everything from military, police, firefighter, etc.
If you're equally capable, then you have the obligation to be equally tested. No handicap bonuses.
Nobody is campaigning for "equality" and "equal representation" in the 100 meters Olympics: where the white people at ?
So which is it, are women, blacks, hispanics, etc equal, or need help because they're inferior ?
P.S.
WTF, why aren't there any line breaks in my posts ??
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There cannot be perfect equality, but when one aggregates a huge sample, the statistical centers for each gender group should be roughly the same, because with a large enough sample, individual deviations for things like actual hours worked and the strengths and weaknesses for particular work-related skills should even-out.
Citation needed. If it's the case that in general women prefer different things from their job from what men prefer (greater flexibility at the cost of higher pay, for example) then the centers would not be the same.
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Gender and racial inequality holds across all job classifications.
Chart #7 of this series http://www.epi.org/publication... [epi.org]
On average, black women workers are paid only 67 cents on the dollar relative to white non-Hispanic men, after controlling for education, years of experience, and location (using 2016 data). This distressing statistic reflects the dual inequities faced by black women—they are subject to both a racial pay gap and a gender pay gap. A key focus of those committed to a fairer economy
Re: Fair Comparison (Score:5, Informative)
Gender and racial inequality holds across all job classifications.
Chart #7 of this series http://www.epi.org/publication... [epi.org]
I picked one line from that chart, retail salespersons. According to that chart, black female retail salespersons make $10.99/hr while white males make $20.12/hr
The bureau of labor statistics charts explain why: https://www.bls.gov/oes/curren... [bls.gov]
If you are working sales in a retail store the average wage is around $11/hr
But if you are working sales in the manufacturing industries the salaries are $20+/hr
The EPI chart clearly doesn't adjust by industry. As usual, if you want to make more get a job that pays more.
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Manufacturing industry sales people are not "retail sales people".
Re: Fair Comparison (Score:4, Informative)
Manufacturing industry sales people are not "retail sales people".
The bureau of labor statistics disagrees with you. Read the charts
https://www.bls.gov/oes/curren... [bls.gov]
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That's because they get extra victim privileges for the melanin.
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How about whites underrepresented in the NFL or NBA where the salaries are in the millions. Where's the outrage?
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What the chart doesn't show is that black women get paid less than white men for doing the same job.
It's aggregated too highly. No control for industry or company, their methodology relies on a source of 'hours worked' that I'd need convincing is reliable, no factoring in whether the jobs are full time or part time, no reference to whether career breaks are included as 'years experience', very crude assessment of 'education' and doesn't explore the quality of the experience acquired (e.g. someone working 50
Re: Fair Comparison (Score:5, Insightful)
There cannot be perfect equality, but when one aggregates a huge sample, the statistical centers for each gender group should be roughly the same, because with a large enough sample, individual deviations for things like actual hours worked and the strengths and weaknesses for particular work-related skills should even-out.
This is a false assumption because it assumes that men and women are essentially the same minus some plumbing. This couldn't be further from the truth. Sex is an example of diversity so it puzzles me why progressives expect equal outcome. Trying to force it is illiberal and immoral. It demonizes men and infantilizes women.
It's possible that there are careers that would favor one gender over another, but those are mostly lower-skilled jobs that require brute strength. Even a lot of low-skill jobs should be roughly at parity, because there are a lot of labor-saving devices that any able-bodied individual can use.
There are fundamental biological differences at work. It's not just plumbing and muscles. The neurology and endocrinology is different too, and that affects temperament and imperatives which in turn affect life choices and priorities.
Neither gender really has any advantage over the other in this scenario, so there should be no reason to pay either gender more than the other for this sort of work.
From this I can tell you've never worked a day in a factory of any sort.
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There cannot be perfect equality, but when one aggregates a huge sample, the statistical centers for each gender group should be roughly the same, because with a large enough sample, individual deviations for things like actual hours worked and the strengths and weaknesses for particular work-related skills should even-out.
So if I get you correct, this requires not only making the pay the same, but capping it as well.
I made a lot more than my co-workers of the same job descriptions, but it was because I was a shitload more productive than they were. I would do the work that especially the women would refuse to do. They wouldn't travel, do dirty work, almost impossible to get them to work other than 8-5, or interface with the shakers and movers. nor did they have the experience.
But they wanted to be paid the same as I wa
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I think its really tricky. One can imagine correlations between gender, age, and other protected characteristic with hours worked, or willingness to change jobs for higher wages. That sort of correlation is very difficult to separate from some externally applied bias. An additional complication is that these groups may have followed different past career paths - again possibly due to preference and possibly due to external bias.
I think the overall goal is good, but that it will be tricky to implement in m
Wait, what? (Score:5, Funny)
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Welcome to 1939. Although that Iceland part is confusing still.
Thanks Europe! (Score:5, Insightful)
You want to fix a problem, then work towards a solution instead of chest-beating and pretending to "declare war" on it.
Re:Thanks Europe! (Score:5, Insightful)
It isn't even a real problem [time.com].
analysis of 2,000 communities by a market research company, in 147 out of 150 of the biggest cities in the U.S., the median full-time salaries of young women are 8% higher
The thing about a real market economy, is that if you could end up paying women whatever % less than men, you'd hire more women, everything else being equal.
The problem is, not everything else is equal. Women will forgo wage increases to stay closer to home, with the kids, during the 18 years or so it takes to raise them to adulthood. That has profound long term effects on wages. BTW, Stay at home dads suffer just as much, but get no sympathy from the Feminists.
This isn't about equality, this is about "feelings" about equality. After all, if you're against "wage fairness" you're obviously a misogynist" who hates women. Facts don't matter.
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It isn't even a real problem [time.com].
analysis of 2,000 communities by a market research company, in 147 out of 150 of the biggest cities in the U.S., the median full-time salaries of young women are 8% higher
You forgot to mentioned a rather interesting piece of that Time article:
The holdout cities — those where the earnings of single, college-educated young women still lag men's — tended to be built around industries that are heavily male-dominated, such as software development or military-technology contracting. In other words, Silicon Valley could also be called Gender Gap Gully.
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You mean, liberal elite Bay Area is ... behind the times? GASP NOOOOOOO
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Good to know our U.S. government aren't the only idiots to declare war on ideological and intangible things. You want to fix a problem, then work towards a solution instead of chest-beating and pretending to "declare war" on it.
I didn't see anything about anyone in the French government saying anything about "declaring war", just some trashy American news site I'd never heard of before in the linked article. The same article that makes the bullshit claim in the same headline that France makes no attempt at the liberty & fraternity parts of its motto. How the hell does drivel like that end up here?
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Awesome (Score:5, Insightful)
Will I get to take years off for maternity leave, and expect my job waiting for me?
Because in the real world, I lost my position because I took two months off to recover from having spinal fusion to have a tumor removed from my spinal cord.
That's the fucking real world, where a baby is a "special kind of tumor".
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You should have told them you identified as a pregnant woman/ new mother. Then call your local news channel to champion your cause.
Re: Awesome (Score:2)
In America, not France where we are talking about in this article, you would have had A JOB waiting for your return because of the Family Leave Act, Buy your employer is not obliged to hold your previous position for you indefinitely.
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The problem is that you get fired for "failing to meet performance expectations" or some other bullshit, not "because I took maternity/sick time".
What about the pay gap between same sex coworkers? (Score:3)
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Her pay is dependent on boob size, just like you three.
:^P
what gender pay gap? (Score:5, Funny)
This is going to get messy. How do France surrender to something that doesn't exist?
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There is no wage gap (Score:5, Insightful)
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A noun, a verb, [politico.com] and "government power-grab".
Recipe for disaster (Score:5, Insightful)
However, legislators may require companies to release the average salaries of their male and female employees and analyze them for disparities.
This type of analysis was tried in the US a few years ago, the politicians found pay disparities on gender when they simply did as discussed above (no surprise), but once they factored in things like comparing same jobs and years experience the pay disparity went away.
To save face, proponents liedand claimed the initial comparison was for men and women doing 'exactly the same job' (when it clearly wasn't) and those that believed there was gender-based pay inequities never challenged findings they already believed.
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This chart (#7) finds pay disparities on race and gender across all occupations:
http://www.epi.org/publication... [epi.org]
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I'm saying that there is race and gender inequality no matter how you slice and dice it.
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This chart (#7) finds pay disparities on race and gender across all occupations:
http://www.epi.org/publication... [epi.org]
It doesn't adjust by industry. Different industries pay different rates for a job that may have a similar title.
A software developer on wall street gets paid a lot more than a software developer at a school
Here's the charts for "retail salespersons" https://www.bls.gov/oes/curren... [bls.gov]
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... and regardless of industry or occupation, there is significant race and gender inequality.
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... and regardless of industry or occupation, there is significant race and gender inequality.
Repeating that proves nothing.
The EPI report is misleading because it doesn't differentiate by industry.
I made much much less doing software development for a computer manufacturer than I did working for a bank. It wasn't because the computer manufacturer was discriminating against me. They paid me according to their salary scale for the position. so I left to find a higher salary scale.
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The report does differentiate by industry. Your arguments are specious.
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Re: Recipe for disaster (Score:2)
Please provide some authoritative evidence instead of bringing up irrelevant minutia.
I don't think you can.
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Please provide some authoritative evidence instead of bringing up irrelevant minutia.
I don't think you can.
It's clear you are not interested in the facts when you don't consider "The Bureau of Labor Statistics" to be the authority on labor statistics.
The report does differentiate by industry. Your arguments are specious.
The EPI report chart differentiates by occupation, not industry. Of course you don't believe that, even though the chart is titled "Average hourly wages of black women and white men by OCCUPATION"
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Nice. They're going to decalre war on a fiction. (Score:2)
France declared war on Iceland and Germany? (Score:3)
When did this happen?
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I don't get it. (Score:2)
Where I work, I had to negotiate my own salary - nothing was set. I know there are male developers that earn less money than me, I know there are male developers that earn more money than me. There are also female developers that earn less money than me and others that earn more money than me. We've all negotiated our own salaries. Mind you I think some people have obtained their salary not because of their ability to code, but their ability to talk (but that is a different issue).
Perhaps we should just bec
safety gap (Score:2)
I can't wait for the war on the gender occupational safety gap. You know, the one where men make up virtually all workplace deaths and a large majority of workplace injuries. Where are the vagina hat marches against this inequality?
France Declares War (Score:2)
Can't do "egalite" and "fraternite" together! (Score:2)
Equality versus Merit? (Score:3)
What should an employer do in cases where female employees take significantly more time out of the industry then male ones, to raise kids?
If an employer has a female workforce with average experience of (say) 10 years, and males with average 15 years experience, and if it's a sector such as medicine where experience massively affects capability, how should the pay policy work?
If the employer pays by gender equality, then female employees of lesser experience who took time out for child raising will be getting paid more than male employees of greater experience who stayed, continued their training and built their skills. Employees of greater merit will be suffering pay disadvantage.
But if the employer pays by merit and experience, the average female pay will be significantly lower than average male pay, and the employer will be exposed to legal problems.
What is an employer to do here?
Call me when (Score:3)
Call me when women are 50% in mining, underwater welding, septic tank maintenance, construction, etc... etc... etc....
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I'd be interested if enough would ever want those jobs that they would ever reach 5%
Now I have worked at power plants that have schedules outages were they have large amounts of contractors, and a few women were in the crews to be construction laborers during those times...but I still haven't seen them in the trades like insulators, iron workers, welders, carpenters (who also do scaffolding), pipe fitters, electricians, etc.
Now don't misunderstand, there were women at those plants, for white collar jobs
Re:United States GS equivalents? (Score:4, Insightful)
Also: WTF? Not all people perform the same quality of work in the same job category. In some white-collar jobs, it even defies quantification with GS ratings. So what a regulation like that would do (if it were even lawful, which it's not) is destroy fairness by preventing performance-based pay, destroy any incentive structure a business might have for motivating employees, and impose an additional paperwork burden that a) no one in government would even pay attention too since it would be a flood of information but also b) open up employers to liability and capricious enforcement from politically motivated government appointees and grandstanding politicians and bureaucrats looking to score points.
This is a horrible idea that will create chaos without solving anything. Do you work for the federal government? Have you ever had a real job in the private sector? Do you have any understanding of how business works or any respect for the idea that government's job is to serve its citizens and not to harass them? How in the world could you think this was a good idea?
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Yeah, great idea, tie salaries directly to age or number of years at the company. That will totally not backfire at all.
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Yeah, great idea, tie salaries directly to age or number of years at the company. That will totally not backfire at all.
Why not? It works perfectly when unions do it, according to Slashdot groupthink. At least, that's what my moderation history suggests.
Re:'equality' *snort* (Score:4, Funny)
In my admittedly anecdotal experience, both men and women may be actually paid more for less productivity, if they have offset that poor level of productivity by socializing with their superiors.
The world is not the meritocracy that it should be. Sharing in the boss's favorite sport or hobby or spending time with them off-hours counts far more than it should.
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>not the meritocracy that it should be
yeah. I really don't see how CEO's get to take home hundreds to thousands time more money than the lowest level employee.
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CEO botches a deal, it may cost the company a million dollars. Joe bungles the widget he's working on, maybe it costs a hundred dollars to fix, if that.
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We were considering paying people by their productivity. Until we noticed that if we did it, CEOs would qualify for food stamps.
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Fuck productivity, where's the equality in income tax?
The Office of National Statistics states that there is a gender gap on median hourly earnings of 9.1%
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employm... [ons.gov.uk]
Yet men pay over 72% of income tax (from https://www.gov.uk/government/... [www.gov.uk] )
Don't hear the fucking feminists demanding equality there.
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Hell, I would just lower all wages to minimum wage levels, and then make them work their way back up again. But every employee in a group gets the same raise, and no one gets it if one person in the group doesn't deserve it.
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