Germany Approves Plans To Fine Social Media Firms Up To $57M (theguardian.com) 223
Social media companies face fines of up to 50m Euro ($57m) if they persistently fail to remove illegal content from their sites under a new law passed in Germany. From a report: The German parliament on Friday approved the bill aimed at cracking down on hate speech, criminal material and fake news on social networks -- but critics warn it could have drastic consequences for free speech online. Germany has some of the world's toughest laws covering defamation, public incitement to commit crimes and threats of violence, with prison sentences for Holocaust denial or inciting hatred against minorities. The measure requires social media platforms to remove obviously illegal hate speech and other postings within 24 hours after receiving a notification or complaint, and to block other offensive content within seven days. The German justice minister, Heiko Maas, who was the driving force behind the bill, said: "Freedom of speech ends where the criminal law begins."
-isms (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:-isms (Score:4, Interesting)
whatever -ism, Germany is having another bout of authoritarianism
It never went away. The Germans have always prioritized conformity over liberty. But they pay a price for that. There is a bit of a startup-culture in Berlin, but Germany has produced few tech companies. The biggest is SAP, which actually has a rather authoritarian culture. If you were planning to start a tech company today, would you do it in Germany? $57 million says that you wouldn't.
Disclaimer: I live in Silicon Valley, and there are several German expats in my neighborhood. They are doing startups, but the aren't doing them in Germany.
Re: -isms (Score:3, Informative)
It never went away. The Germans have always prioritized conformity over liberty. But they pay a price for that.
The 'price' they pay is social harmony... what a bummer.
There is a bit of a startup-culture in Berlin, but Germany has produced few tech companies. The biggest is SAP, which actually has a rather authoritarian culture.
Is this a joke? Are you back to smoking crack SanghaiBill?
Successful tech was Germany's thing for the whole second half of the 20th century.
If you were planning to start a tech company today, would you do it in Germany? $57 million says that you wouldn't.
Billions of dollars say you do. In Berlin.
Disclaimer: I live in Silicon Valley, and there are several German expats in my neighborhood. They are doing startups, but the aren't doing them in Germany.
There are many more successful startups in Germany now than there are in silicon valley. Disclaimer: I live in silicon valley.
Re: -isms (Score:4, Funny)
As a European citizen I'm all for conformity. We need more of it, not less. Everyone must think the same and heterodoxy must be punished. If absolute conformity had been strictly enforced since the founding of the EU, we wouldn't have Brexit and euroskeptics would be where they belong: in prison.
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As an EU citizen, I'm here to inform you that you do not speak for me.
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As another EU citizen I have to agree. The Germans have quite a history of the evils of populism and how it can be hijacked by the use of hate speech. It is no wonder that they remain a bastion against that particular evil. It is not at all notable that they are also cracking down on illegal material either, the rest of the world is in the process of doing it; we just differ on how that should be done. There is an issue over social conformity but society has always demanded conformity as the American city
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The Germans have quite a history of the evils of populism and how it can be hijacked by the use of hate speech.
Except you do know that these laws were forced on them originally at the end of WWII, right? And now they're suffering from Stockholm syndrome.
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These laws were forced on them at the end of WWII because the country was full of Nazis.
Yeah, so the logical answer is to drive them underground by making their speech illegal, so that they're harder to identify? Good plan there, sport.
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So... political speech is alright so long as the politics are approved by the state, and unapproved opinions are to be censored by criminalizing their communication?
I see a pattern repeating here, and not a good one.
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As a European citizen, I find your lack of understanding of sarcasm disturbing.
I also suggest you stop tilting at windmills: Europe is sliding more and more into authoritarianism/totalitarianism. And it's only going to get worse as the European economy deteriorates and the old social contracts fall apart.
Re: -isms (Score:2)
>SiliconValley
Eh, no longer in Shanghai?
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Eh, no longer in Shanghai?
I lived in Shanghai for several years, but I now live in San Jose. My company has an office in Shanghai, and I work there for several months each year. I will be going to Shanghai in a few weeks, and I will be there until October.
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^^ LOL
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whatever -ism, Germany is having another bout of authoritarianism
It never went away. The Germans have always prioritized conformity over liberty. But they pay a price for that. There is a bit of a startup-culture in Berlin, but Germany has produced few tech companies. The biggest is SAP, which actually has a rather authoritarian culture. If you were planning to start a tech company today, would you do it in Germany? $57 million says that you wouldn't.
Disclaimer: I live in Silicon Valley, and there are several German expats in my neighborhood. They are doing startups, but the aren't doing them in Germany.
Have you ever been in Germany? You make such authoritative statements about it? There's plenty of startups in Germany, they just aren't all overwhelmingly in the software sector. For some reason people seem to put an equality sign between 'startup' and a bunch of people trying to market some app or the other. Software startups are nice but you need a somewhat diverse mix of startups for a healthy economy. I'm not surprised that people in Germany with dreams of a software or even some kind of hardware smartp
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Have you ever been in Germany?
I have been there several times. Mostly to Hannover, but I have also been to Berlin. I liked Berlin way better.
You make such authoritative statements about it?
When I was a kid, I watched Hogan's Heros every week. That show taught me a lot about Germans.
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It never went away. The Germans have always prioritized conformity over liberty. But they pay a price for that. There is a bit of a startup-culture in Berlin, but Germany has produced few tech companies. The biggest is SAP, which actually has a rather authoritarian culture. If you were planning to start a tech company today, would you do it in Germany? $57 million says that you wouldn't.
Yes, and oddly enough it seems to work both ways. Most people seem to want rules and processes for everything and then make an effort to comply with those rules and processes, right down to a friend of mine was trimming the hedge because if it blocked the sidewalk in his tiny little 20 mph one-way, no through traffic residential street where there was barely a car to be seen he could be fined. A non-German friend of mine worked there, instead of managing a team he felt more like an officer taking orders not
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I said already that you are a dumbass and I say it again, this time because you think that only website companies are tech companies. You also think that startups are more important than established companies even though 99% of startups fail. I mean, people living in Silicon Valley generally have a very skewed view of the world and their place in it, but you are clearly delusional even compared to that particular baseline.
Just so you know, Germany has a shitload of tech companies, and by that I mean real t
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right now they have good unions
good apprenticeship system not you must go to college
and good Healthcare system.
We should let them take over the usa.
And it's time to end speed limits in rural areas on the roads that are built for high speed.
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They nearly did. It was quite a while back, though.
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It's amazing how many Americans don't know their own history. It's not like there's a lot of it to learn.
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When was that? In WWII, the Germans didn't attack the US.
Actually we did.
It was kept a secret during WWII, more or less. But afterwards actually everyone knows, well, you obviously not.
We sank dozens if not hundreds of ships along the coast, and in some rivers and shelled some harbor factories from sea.
With submarines of course. That was actually very early in the war.
http://www.learnnc.org/lp/edit... [learnnc.org]
Ooops, actually close to 400 ships: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Summary about german operations close o
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And take a look at the old nazi compound in LA, the ruins are still there. that could have been useful later on with all the installations for running independent. :D
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whatever -ism, Germany is having another bout of authoritarianism that could be more fatal than the last one
Wow, I mean, Godwin's prediction is that as the length of the thread increases, the probability of comparisons to Hitler or the Nazis tends to one. You managed to do it in the first post. Good job!
By the way, if your immediate reaction to this is "It's literally worse than Hitler and the Nazis" then don't be surprised if no one takes you seriously.
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"illgeal content" = "incorrect speech" (Score:2, Insightful)
You *will* make people speak correctly or you *will* be fined! Germany Über Alles!
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Since you don't seem to be able to speak German, you'll be fine.
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It is merely a last ditch attempt to keep Merkel in office
Last I checked, Germany loved Merkel and all she's done, or at least, a large portion of them do. That's the kicker...they want censorship. They don't seem to see the hypocrisy of using speech to advocate against free speech, but as far as I can tell, this is being met with applause.
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You are looking at it from the US definition of freedom. In the US you can be free even though you can't really live your life because, e.g. the KKK or some fundamentalist church is persecuting you.
Germany in particular remembers the 1930s when life became impossible for Jews and many others.
In the EU there is also what we call positive freedom. Not freedom from interference, freedom to have a life that isn't me awful by other people. The US has some laws against things like harassment, but in the EU that c
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That's rather part of the job description, isn't it?
Why do you think it's limited to Europe?
"Right guys, I know absolutely nothing about this. Outline the options, then go through the pros & cons of each one".
Guess who didn't say that last week.
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Enforce censorship or Putin wins? Bloody hell, I hope that's not mainstream thought anywhere.
I get that logic (Score:4, Insightful)
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what the fuck is a chalk marker?
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Presumably it's something you write on chalk with, since chalk doesn't write on glass.
Yes you do. Seriously. (Score:2, Informative)
If someone takes a chalk marker and draws something anti-Semitic on a window, and the owner of the window refuse to clean it up you indeed go after the window owner (not manufacturer incidentally, as facebook and social media are the owner, not manufacturer). See if you are getting reported that somebody put anti semite message on your window, then in germany you HAVE to remove it. Now you may culturally have grown in a place where one think *any* speech must be allowed (or nearly), that is fine and dandy,
Re:Yes you do. Seriously. (Score:5, Insightful)
Both your and OP's analogies fail to consider the vast scale. Maybe a better analogy would be to say you have millions of windows popping up everyday. Some may have wrongthink on them. You are expected to know where and when the wrongthink will occur on a window, or else you are also guilty of thought crime by virtue of ignorance.
Somehow, this is considered something other than madness, despite not just the inherent immorality and hypocrisy of censorship, but also the sheer impracticality of the matter. I sure as shit don't see Germany stepping up to propose how social media filters for latent thought crime.
Either way, the US may have a flaming dumpster full of faults, but I'm at least glad we have the Second Amendment.
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Damn it, that was supposed to be First Amendment. I mean, Second too, but not the relevant one.
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I was wondering where that last statement was leading. :^)
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Maybe a better analogy would be to say you have millions of windows popping up everyday. Some may have wrongthink on them. You are expected to know where and when the wrongthink will occur on a window, or else you are also guilty of thought crime by virtue of ignorance.
Ooooh, I have an idea! Let's plan a special night when we smash all of the windows that express political messages of any kind, in case they might be wrongthink. It would be like a festival.
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Note that they are not expecting the companies to police their networks, only to react reasonably quickly to reports sent in by users.
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Consider the scale.
What if Facebook gets absolutely FLOODED with false reports, making it so it is physically impossible for them to sift through the reports in 24 hours from receipt? They need to either make it so a report means stuff gets removed without oversight (bad) or they need to check everything manually that an algorithm says MIGHT be illegal (costly), OR leave the potentially illegal stuff up for more than 24 hours (even more costly).
Imagine a massive botnet filing reports on ALL PAGES ON FACEBOO
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Traditionally they would burn whole house marked in that manner, so you can consider the new approach a big improvement!
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If someone takes a chalk marker and draws something anti-Semitic on a window, you must go after the window manufacturer!
That's a dumb analogy, windows are not publication service providers that allow you to reach millions of people. If there was a newspaper anywhere publishing articles on it's website on a regular bases that encourage people to burn synagogues and lynch jews it would pretty quickly get a visit from the authorities, even in the USA.
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Stupid comparison. More like:
If somone used a chalk marker to write on the side of a set of purposefully designed windows which are there for writing on and is supervised by the manufacturer for inappropriate content already, and the manufacturer doesn't remove the anti-Semitic writing, THEN you go after the manufacturer.
Social media platforms are not hands-off common carriers. That is as true for Facebook as it is of 4chan.
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Stupid comparison. More like:
If somone used a chalk marker to write on the side of a set of purposefully designed windows which are there for writing on and is supervised by the manufacturer for inappropriate content already, and the manufacturer doesn't remove the anti-Semitic writing, THEN you go after the manufacturer.
Social media platforms are not hands-off common carriers. That is as true for Facebook as it is of 4chan.
Yep. Even Slashdot has started censoring our posts. Because someone might get offended by bad words.
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The problem with your argument is that now countries are decreeing that all content they disagree with must be removed from the entire worldly available web, not just the part of a website targeting a country or hosted within a country.
So, it's fine you don't do business in China. But the analogy is if China threatened you with jailtime for your business practices in the US or Europe.
I'm hoping (Score:4)
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"Hate speech" -- whatever the majority can turn around and define. Nothing more. That's why hate speech laws need to burn in fire.
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Germany is based on a mostly civil law system, not common law like in the UK/US. Among other things, it means that judges do not create new law by judging the interpretation of Bundestag, but can rule differently based on the context and intent of the law. If calling someone a racial slur was ruled okay in the 1950s according to judges and juries back then, the same slurs can be illegal today without any law change or supreme court ruling being required.
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The powers in place after 1945 in West Germany and now Germany can direct powerful laws created to stop communism or fascism from ever entering German politics.
Comment on a ruling party and its policy, the results of policy or suggest changes to policy?
A rise in local crime? What people are doing in the German community?
Get reported by social media SJW staff, or
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Germany was a democracy before 1945 too. The party in power was elected through the democratic process, and the party in power decided what had to be banned. The party democratically elected by the german people was removed from power in 1945 by a foreign invader.
Banning communism and fascism is actually un democratic. The idea of democracy is that the people can vote for the government they want, what if the majority of people actually want a fascist or communist government?
The biggest flaw of democracy is
Re:I'm hoping (Score:5, Insightful)
The party in power was elected through the democratic process, and the party in power decided what had to be banned. The party democratically elected by the german people was removed from power in 1945 by a foreign invader.
BS. The Nazi's did not have a majority in the parliament. Hindenburg made Hitler chancellor, thinking he could be controlled. Instead the Nazis dismantled the parliament. And made sure it never reopened after the convenient Reichstag fire.
Many Germans gave the Nazis their vote as a protest vote against the established elite (that included my grandfather), not realizing that this was to be their last vote.
Until his death my grandfather was mad as hell that Hitler tricked the country into another war. After the experience of WW1 there was absolutely no appetite for yet another war. His oft repeated lament was that he only talked about peace until he had his dictatorship firmly entrenched.
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Indeed. Hitler was certainly not elected as Fuhrer (which is what GP and his ilk are trying to imply) because the position didn't exist until he - having been appointed as chancellor - merged that post with the presidency.
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You are barking up the wrong tree. Maas is a conservative politician [wikipedia.org]. Enforcing laws that have been on the books since the beginning of the Federal Republic of Germany.
If the people don't like it, they can send Merkel and Maas packing in the upcoming federal election.
Not gonna happen though. The majority of Germans supports these hate speech laws.
Think of it as radical centrism. And at least in Germany the center will hold this time.
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> If the people don't like it, they can send Merkel and Maas packing in the upcoming federal election.
The problem is that Schultz (the leader of the other karge party in Germany, which is still a more or less 2-party state which is strange for a country that does not have a district voting system) is even worse in this regard, and the AfD is considered too radical by most Germans. Somehow the FDP (liberal party - liberal as in economic freedom, not the strange definition Americans use for it) seems unabl
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Germany is not really a two party state. There are two largeish parties (albeit much smaller than they used to be decades ago) and they cannot rule alone - they don't have anything close to a majority and haven't had one since 1961.
FDP has gained some support again, but the reason why they have so few voters is that they have more or less officially defined themselves as a party for rich people and this exactly what they have tried to achieve - lowering taxes for the wealthy. Matter of fact, if you google
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All points wrong.
As long as you don't spread "hate speech" you can comment on what you want.
Why are you claiming such nonsense?
If I would write: "Merkel is a catastrophe for my Country! All the refugees should be kept out!" or similar stuff like that: who cares? Which judge had any legal leverage against that? Hu?
None, you are an idiot.
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Well that's the problem, it's a slippery slope..
It started being defined as nazi propaganda, then gradually creeps.. What starts of benign attracts a few complaints and suddenly its hate speech and your going to jail... You end up having to be extremely paranoid about what you say for fear of being jailed!
And what exactly defines "hate" ? I frequently banter with friends where we call each other fat, bald (its true, we're getting old) or use various racial slurs. I don't take offense to it and neither do th
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Thats the problem for Germany. It has to look after its exports and be nice to so many other nations.
No blasphemy. No cartoons. No art. No jokes about other nations. No comedy.
Dont recall the history of other communist parties in other nations.
The sales of German weapon systems are not to be questioned on social media.
Never repeat funny German jokes online. German SJW are always watching.
Germany has lists of safe jokes that are allowed.
An
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You say that, but the place you have to be really paranoid about going to gaol, statistically, is the US. You all might have great free speech protection, but a higher proportion of your citizens are in prison than any other country.
You are ten times as likely to be thrown in prison in the US as in Germany.
I think this illustrates that you simply don't know what you're talking about: it's not like there's a huge, steady stream of people being imprisoned for wrongthink in Germany. It doesn't happen and they
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States create laws because they plan to use them, not just for fun.
Either they're getting ready for the big crackdown on people, or they're getting ready for a big crackdown on social media companies because they don't like the way they enable people to speak to one another. Western governments have been successfully scaring residents into hiding in their homes alone where they don't challenge the state, and they don't want people talking about their misdeeds.
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Actually the laws are well defined. "Hate Speech" is just the moniker you are using to refer to those laws. And by that you pretend they would be vague or inappropriate or authoritarianism or censorship.
Only make the content inaccessible in Germany (Score:2, Insightful)
Social media firms should not have to altogether delete hate speech, only make it inaccessible to IP addresses in Germany. The content should still be visible elsewhere unless the social media firm wants to delete it. Germany does not have the right to force it's draconian anti-free speech laws on the rest of the world. Laws that limit the ability to express ideas can and will be abused to censor ideas that are potentially threatening to the government. If Germany wants to leave the free world and become a
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Or attempts to add to banned comments with an ip and a provider outside Germany using the German language?
Best to ban any attempts at free speech globally once reported so the world is safe for Germans using the internet in other parts of the world.
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or maybe western countries should get over their infantile fear of speech. Ever since the fall of the USSR, it's been a race among western powers to recreate its worst aspects.
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The law is about "expressing hate speech".
If it is only invisible in Europe, but still visible in the rest of the world, it is still "expressed", hence still illegal.
In other words: if judge makes vacation in Thailand, and looks at the facebook page of a guy he recently has convicted and still/again sees the hate speech, he just would probably this time not fine him, put really put him in jail.
Don't worry, it will be fine. (Score:3)
Look, all you have to do is use a social media platform that isn't a corporation with a presence in Germany. Self-hosting on a decentralized social [wikipedia.org] media network [wikipedia.org] is the best way to go and avoids those nasty ads and deceptive information gather/selling altogether. Sure, you're hateful rants about group XYZ wont reach as many people but you get what you pay for and you haven't paid jack shit.
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So all I need to do is use a social network not used by my social circle.
So at that point I'm just using a network am I not? Saying you can just use a different social network is silly. No one uses a social network because they love the network, they use it because of the people who use it.
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If your social circle is also into hateful rants about group XYZ then they will gladly switch. If they aren't then maybe it's best they not be in contact with you. :)
Pity (Score:3)
Disappointed. I was hoping they'd fine social media companies just for being social media companies.
Nazis.......I hate those guys (Score:2)
General "Buck" Turgidson: Hmm... Strangelove? What kind of a name is that? That ain't no Kraut name is it, Stainesey?
Mr. Staines: He changed it when he became a citizen. Used to be Merkwürdigliebe.
General "Buck" Turgidson: Well, a Kraut by any other name, uh Stainesey?
Fuck You Germany (Score:2)
And your bullshit censorship, aka hate speech.
--
Political Correctness, aka, Censorship, is not the solution -- it is precisely the problem.
Would be funny if everybody did that (Score:2)
Freedom of speech ends... in Germany (Score:2)
"Freedom of speech ends where the criminal law begins."
Apparently, Freedom of Speech ends where German law begins. You know, Germans, last time you cracked down on free speech, you then went on to try to kill all the Jews. Maybe that's not the best plan.
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"Freedom of speech ends where the criminal law begins."
Apparently, Freedom of Speech ends where German law begins. You know, Germans, last time you cracked down on free speech, you then went on to try to kill all the Jews. Maybe that's not the best plan.
This action on their part does shed some light on how they get themselves into those predicaments where the rest of the world is forced to give them a beatdown.
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This action on their part does shed some light on how they get themselves into those predicaments where the rest of the world is forced to give them a beatdown.
I just don't understand how these politicians don't have like, a reminder card on their desk or something, which says "if this sounds like something Hitler did, it's time to think about it twice". Except, you know, probably not in English.
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This action on their part does shed some light on how they get themselves into those predicaments where the rest of the world is forced to give them a beatdown.
I just don't understand how these politicians don't have like, a reminder card on their desk or something, which says "if this sounds like something Hitler did, it's time to think about it twice". Except, you know, probably not in English.
I think your statement in German, then below it in English and Cyrillic: "Remember what happened the last couple times you tried this crap?"
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Cyrillic is not a language, it is an alphabet.
immigrants (Score:4)
You can't mention that perhaps not all the immigrants flooding into Europe are refugees.
Also you can not disagree with the Swedens politicians when they say to the people that their country are no longer theirs and they must learn how to integrate themselves into these new cultures.
Or when the politicians say that their own country has no culture worth mentioning and needs some new and better ones.
Poland seems to be the only one standing up for their own culture.
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This is not a restriction of Free Speech (Score:2)
Hate Speech's only purpose is to incite violence, get people killed and destroy families.
Confusing Free Speech with Hate Speech is an American problem. While its recognized for what it is internationally there is nothing preventing it in America.
The message is clear in America. You can do say and do whatever you want under the guise of Free Speech, just let the Police take care of the fallout.
Based Sti
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...and its only the government (ortheir legal representatives) who decide what is and isn't hate speech.
For example in Germany you can and will get prison time for simply saying you don't believe the holocaust happened. Whilst I personally believe it did happen, its clearly not actually hate speech to just say you don't believe it.
Meh, whats new? (Score:2)
Germany have a long history of persecuting people that don't totally agree and comply with the official government doctrine.
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That's correct citizen. Now step back in line and praise the great leader.
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Making social media companies leaving the country? yes it is.
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This is the most dangerous and stupid thing ever posted on this site. But even you, dear AC, who would so easily surrender your liberties, are allowed to spew your nonsense here, or anywhere.
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Which is why shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater is not free speech. Your understandable enthusiasm for free speech has clouded your judgement.
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Which is why shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater is not free speech. Your understandable enthusiasm for free speech has clouded your judgement.
You're wrong under US law.
Shouting "fire!" in a crowded theater, whether or not there actually is a fire, is protected speech and cannot be censored or preemptively blocked.
The *consequences* of that speech, however, are not protected by the 1st Amendment and are quite negative in nature if there were no fire.
As a side note, I wish more people understood that the free speech provisions in the 1st Amendment are there precisely to protect speech that is unpopular. These attempts to silence opposing views ar
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Also, the "fire in a crowded theater" argument was made in a landmark case that allowed the suppression of purely political, anti-war speech.
It was ultimately on the losing side, but for a while the official position was that opposing the US entering WWI was akin to shouting fire in a crowded theater and therefore not protected speech.
Amazing how language and history can be misappropriated and forgotten. Here's a Ken White screed on the topic. [popehat.com]
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Censorship is freedom, eh? Sounds like something I've heard before in a cautionary tale.
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In Tolerance Camp, intolerance will not be tolerated!
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Your post is deeply intolerant of my fervent belief that all people are entitled to the right of free speech.
If you truly believe what you say, you will have your intolerant post removed.
Else, you do not truly practice what you preach and likely just assume you will always be on the right side of the censor.
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Inciting criminal behaviour, like violence and arbitrary acts against individuals or groups, is not protected speech in Germany. If you say that immigra
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Or maybe, just maybe, the people behind the law want the tools in place to suppress ideas that they don't like.
When someone asks for a sledgehammer to drive nails with, you have to wonder if they don't really have something else in mind for the sledgehammer - particularly if they already have a perfectly good hammer in their toolbox.
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It sorta reads like a battleplan for implementing 1984?
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Yeah, they've quit trying to invoke Betteridge's Law of Headlines with every story--a vast improvement IMNSHO.
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Free speech in Europe only exists at the whim of the governments.
Free speech anywhere is at the whim of the government.