If It Uses Electricity, It Will Connect To the Internet: F-Secure's CRO (theregister.co.uk) 308
New submitter evolutionary writes: According to F-Secure's Chief Research Officer "IoT is unavoidable. If it uses electricity, it will become a computer. If it uses electricity, it will be online. In future, you will only buy IoT appliances, whether you like it or not, whether you know it or not." F-Secure's new product to help mitigate data leakage, "Sense", is a IoT Firewall, combining a traditional firewall with a cloud service and uses concepts including behaviour-based blocking and device reputation to figure out whether you have insecure devices.
I don't think so. (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:I don't think so. (Score:4)
Re:I don't think so. (Score:5, Informative)
We use our toaster often, but unplug it when we're not using it. If our toaster was Internet-connected, would we need to wait for it to boot up before we could make some toast? Because if that's the case, I'll do what you do and buy a non-Internet-connected toaster or not connect it to my home network. (If the toaster requires Internet connectivity to make toast, it will be returned ASAP and I'd post a warning online to keep others from buying that model.)
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His argument is that non-internet toaster won't be produced. The problem with that is that no matter how inexpensive that internet connection module gets, it still adds cost to what is the most basic of electrical devices around (AC Electricity directly connected to heating wires, a simple mechanical switch and spring). A toaster is actually a perfect example of a device that might be sold internet connected, but will never ever be ONLY sold as internet connected. And the simple reason is that internet conn
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Re:I don't think so. (Score:5, Insightful)
How about a free toaster if you plug it in for at least 16 hours a day? And by the way it has a microphone and a screen showing adverts on it... And it etches adverts into the toast as well... But it's free!
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Re:I don't think so. (Score:5, Insightful)
Nope, but that's not the way it will happen. The Internet Toaster won't care if my toast is perfect. It WILL care what brand of bread I use and will want to tell me about other wonderful choices in the world of sliced bread. And THAT will take 15 seconds, be associated with an annoying noise, voice and / or blinky light.
Then the company that made the toaster will shut off the server for reasons unclear in the engineering world. I won't be able to put another slice of bread in it until I either buy a subscription to toast.biz or another fucking toaster.
It's not the microprocessor and sensor suite that is the issue (although you can overthink a problem pretty easily these days). It's the connection to the cloud for no apparent gain other than to line somebody else's pockets.
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Toaster: Howdy doodly do. How's it going? I'm Talkie, Talkie Toaster, your chirpy breakfast companion. Talkie's the name, toasting's the game. Anyone like any toast?
Lister: Look, I don't want any toast, and he doesn't want any toast. In fact, no one around here wants any toast. Not now, not ever. No toast.
Toaster: How 'bout a muffin?
Lister: Or muffins. Or muffins. We don't like muffins around here. We want no muffins, no toast, no teacakes, no buns, baps, baguettes or bagels, no croissants, no crumpets, no
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Oh, ye of little imaginationne! You'd give that 0.0005 seconds of your life up if that toaster had sensors in it to be sure that your toast was not burnt and not underdone *every* time you made toast. Ever stand there for ten minutes wasting away just trying to get that perfect slice? This is where you will buy an "Internet Toaster" and the tech will win. -=# Beau $=- (senior Editor)
possibly I might want a networked toaster that is not connected to the internet. A smart toaster (a smoaster?). Time my toast to finish exactly 15 seconds after my eggs are done. But I'll sure as heck never NEED it, and I might not want the Russians to know how dark I like my toast.
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When toasters have to be connected to the internet to work, the idea of me buying a toaster is toast.
Besides, toasters are simple devices. My current toaster has "no user-serviceable parts" and was riveted shut. A drill fixed that, so I could repair it when crumbs caused it to malfunction when I shook it upside down to get out the last of them. I like my toasters dumb. If I wanted a smart toaster, I'd get a Cylon.
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As for devices that connect via 3g/4g phone networks, my home can become a Faraday Cage if necessary to block these signals.
Turning your home into a Faraday cage seems extreme. You're going to give up your ability to use your cell phone at home in order to frustrate your toaster?
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Yes, more standby power usage is what we need. That cable box uses almost as much electricity on standby as it does when running.
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Yes, more standby power usage is what we need. That cable box uses almost as much electricity on standby as it does when running.
And your old CRT television set used 10 times the power of your new LED flat-screen. In the greater scheme of things, we've become far more efficient than we used to, even with some minor annoyances.
Besides, given how greedy the cable companies are, we likely won't have to wait long before cable boxes are extinct.
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In the greater scheme of things, we've become far more efficient than we used to
And you want to reverse course? How do you think we got there? The main reason the CRT used 10 times the power was the standby power required to keep the high-voltage capacitor ready.
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They need internet connection because that way they can call the ambulance when you hurt yourself by noticing blood on the blade.
I dare you to ponder what it would take for a government to think "Good idea, let's make this mandatory!"
Not Hotdog! (Score:2)
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Eventually, there will be no such models. That is already starting to be the case in some areas.
Well his point is that every manufacturer will install a 2 cent sensor. Have he talked to manufacturers? A 2 cent increase in the cost of a product is not something all manufacturers want. The low cost manufacturers are not going for that because their business model is to crank out the cheapest stuff possible with little involvement with the consumer.
For example, the cheapest DVDs for a long time at Walmart simply ignored region locking. While it was not advertised as such, I suspect the manufacturers orig
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They will want it if the inclusion of the 2 cent sensor lets them collect a buck fifty of saleable data over the life of the device.
Again that would require that the Internet feature functions properly over the lifetime of the device. Given the quality of most low cost devices (toasters, etc), I don't see that as a selling point to manufacturers. They only care that their products make it past warranty periods.
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Again that would require that the Internet feature functions properly over the lifetime of the device... They only care that their products make it past warranty periods.
From the manufacturer's point of view, the warranty period IS the lifetime of the device. Any information they can collect and sell past that is just gravy.
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I use my toaster twice a year. Even if I leave it connected, the data they collect will be of little use.
But there are other products you do use every day that will also be sending data -- the value isn't in the data from one single product, it's aggregating data from your entire house.
My electric toothbrush already has bluetooth. I have no idea what the phone app does, but I'm sure some people use it and their phone sends back brushing activity and other data back to the company.
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Examples of things that already are IoT only and own't function without an internet connection, please?
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Game consoles and blu-ray players. "Wanna play that new game/watch that new movie? Connect me to the internet so I can download a firmware update."
TVs are headed the same way, it's getting to be impossible to find "dumb" TVs with anything but the shittiest bargain-basement LCD panels in them.
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Nobody gives a shit how much toast you make, certainly not enough to go through the engineering efforts and added cost in general of sensors, controllers and backup batteries with the electronics similarly made to operate when "offline" (unplugged) for prolonged periods, whatever you say/do around the toaster on the other hand is information they can sell.
My grocery store, bread baker and bread-flour producer all have great interest in how much toast I make, how it correlates with other products/services I use, and how to get me to make more toast. And they don't care if the wifi chipset adds $3 to the price of my toaster and they'll get me to pay for it by claiming that the internet connected toaster is "cloud connected" to ensure perfect toast every time.
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And they don't care if the wifi chipset adds $3 to the price of my toaster and they'll get me to pay for it by claiming that the internet connected toaster is "cloud connected" to ensure perfect toast every time.
Yes but they don't have to shoulder the cost of it, the toaster manufacturer does. How are manufacturers going to recoup the cost? Could they sell the data to others? Sure, but here's the problem: they have to design the toaster to ensure the data feed works long enough to get their cost back. Some low cost manufacturers don't really care that their devices last more than a year (so that it expires out of warranty). I can't see them caring about IoT. The high end manufacturers might care.
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This. Do you seriously think your IoT toaster is only sending data about the toast you make? No, it's not.
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I just checked WalMart. Their low-end toaster is EIGHT FRIGGIN' DOLLARS. That's for two slices, the four slice model is seventeen. Do you seriously think a toaster with the necessary circuitry and software to connect will cost the same? *Much* less that to gather the data you're implying. Check out the prices of a simple USB wifi connector. Now add that to the price of the low-end two slice model and buy yourself the four slice model w/o wifi.
Re: I don't think so. (Score:2)
Retail is dying. Get over it. That has nothing to do with the article. If you don't want an electric coffee machine then use a French press.
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Were you trying to make some sort of logical argument? If so, you need to start with logic.
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If you don't want an electric coffee machine then use a French press.
There's a middle ground between a French press and a coffee maker that tracks my brewing habits. No matter how prevalent these smart devices get, there will always be a demand for dumb ones. And where there's demand, there's supply.
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Yes! Coffee is going to become scarcer due to Global Warming. Extract ALL of the goodness from the beans before it's too late.
And you can use the residue to dissolve annoying relatives without leaving any forensic evidence.
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You assume that you have a choice to connect these things to the internet if you want to use them. Think again.
The makers of such devices have a huge interest in you being connected to the internet. Mostly to send data to them. About you and your consumer habits. Do you have a faint idea how much it's worth to know when you watch TV, what you watch and when and how often you switch between channels? How you choose your TV shows? That's market research you can take straight to the bank. At the very least the
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You assume that you have a choice to connect these things to the internet if you want to use them. Think again.
Of course I have a choice, even if I have to enforce it by ripping out an antenna, putting the damned thing in a Faraday cage, or just sticking to the inevitable cheapest of cheap brands that won't ever spend the extra couple of cents to put the circuitry in.
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Soon you cannot leave profit on the floor. Because your competitor will pretty much give his fridges away, he will sell them at half your price.
Why is he doing it? Because everyone is doing it. And why can they do it? Because the other half is being paid for by whoever buys the data the fridge will collect about its buyer. You think there's a market for fridges that cost more for fewer "features"?
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Companies that REQUIRE internet access for electric can openers are shooting themselves in the foot.
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Then they will make it very, very, VERY inconvenient not to connect them to the internet, at the very least.
The market for such devices is rather small, so given the "danger" of people buying them who could else be forced into giving up their data buying them and thus not providing data that can be sold for lots of money, it's unlikely that any maker of appliances would endanger his data harvesting for such comparably insignificant gains.
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Then they will make it very, very, VERY inconvenient not to connect them to the internet, at the very least.
The market for such devices is rather small, so given the "danger" of people buying them who could else be forced into giving up their data buying them and thus not providing data that can be sold for lots of money, it's unlikely that any maker of appliances would endanger his data harvesting for such comparably insignificant gains.
That's where there's a niche-market for tiny cottage-industries. For example, I occasionally build custom vacuum-tube guitar amplifiers either for myself or acquaintances. Unless they can figure a way to incorporate IoT into the glass envelope of a 6L6GC, 12AX7A, or EL34. :P
Strat
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I don't doubt you worked in a building where those activities were being done, but this isn't even a hard problem. You're trying to wave around some sort of authority chode, but argument from authority is crap. And you're not even claiming experience; "I did work I thought was important, a long time ago, therefore I know all about modern materials engineering." It is really weak sauce.
Wow, dude, take the stick out of your ass and that huge chip off your shoulder! Have you got 'little-man syndrome' or something? I'm not trying to wave around any authority, just trying to have an interesting technical 'what-if', the background was just attempting to establish rapport with possibly another person with an engineering background. I was simply tossing out some random off-the-cuff thoughts, I wasn't submitting an engineering thesis, FFS!
Most ICs are also available in ceramic packages. Typically that means it is rated to 210C ambient.
Those ceramic packages also come at a premium price, again
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Who would willingly buy a product that purposefully makes things inconvenient for the user, or puts its makers' needs ahead of its primary function? Ask Microsoft how well that went over with the Xbox One with its "phone home once a day" requirement. Sony ate their lunch.
Consumers will still have a choice, because all it takes is ONE manufacturer to realize that privacy might be a feature worth touting to gain an edge in sales over their competitors. The idea that there won't be a single product among th
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Individual businesses may fail, but businesses as a whole will keep trying until someone succeeds at getting their technological hooks into you. It isn't customer demand driving this, nor is it customer benefit (you can't be *that* naive). What's driving this is a fundamental fact of marketing: new customers are expensive to find.
So when you as a customer are seeking a transaction, I as a marketer am seeking to parlay that transaction into a relationship. This is apparent if you look at something like a s
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I get his point - more things will be connected to the internet. But more things will also not be. The internet is a utility now, it's not just new and shiny. Sure, there will be coffee machines that are connected to the internet you can buy, but there will be a ton of people that don't want them and want a normal coffee machine.
His point was centered around the fact that you won't be even offered a choice in the future, thanks to Greed. No manufacturer will simply be satisfied with the one-time profit created from a "dumb" coffee machine. They will want many sources of revenue coming from aggregating their customer usage data and selling and re-selling it over and over again. Along with coffee subscription services, and accessories that report back to the infamous cloud when the carbon filter is dirty and needs to be changed/or
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Yeah, hence the huge number of brands of dog food at $5 a can just because they've got a cute Yorkshire on them and the aisles of "natural" produce. There's a hole in that logic of yours somewhere.
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Yes, but those people won't necessarily buy what they want, especially if the sticker price isn't any different (and computers are dirt cheap). They currently buy internet-connected TVs, you know. (And that's just the tip of the iceberg on people making sacrifices and tradeoffs. People do it all the time.)
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Then *those* people will buy connected devices. The remaining hundreds of thousands of houses w/o said DHA will not give a crap. How, pray tell, are you going to go about jamming those DHA's into those hundreds of thousands of houses?
Security company scaremongering IoT (Score:5, Insightful)
Film at 11.
He's probably right about the push towards having to be online, but I fail to see how an IoT firewall should mitigate it. Especially with the increasing use of IPv6, which means more and more IoT devices will try to get un-NATed access to the internet (and will probably also get their wish granted).
Good luck trying to firewall that.
Sorry, but no. If we want secure IoT devices, we have to demand them. And that means not buying the shoddy, insecure junk that's currently peddled. And I'm not even talking about any gimmicky gadgets from some Aliexpress shops, I'm talking about our "smart" TVs and other "smart" appliances made for dumb people.
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This why I think only legislative solution could work. We should have clear rights to our own data, so we can stop on-going theft of it.
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It's an IoT firewall with "cloud service", so basically their cure is to install another of the very things that makes it insecure in the first place.
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NAT is not a security feature. It is a workaround for the lack of IPv4 addresses.
It just has the side effect of blocking some inbound connections, but if it is what you need, this can be done with a simple firewall rule, one that most home routers are likely to have enabled by default.
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Especially with the increasing use of IPv6, which means more and more IoT devices will try to get un-NATed access to the internet (and will probably also get their wish granted).
Good luck trying to firewall that.
That's rather simple to do. Unless device manufacturers are going to provide their own Internet infrastructure, they will still need your Internet connection to do their nefarious deeds.
Simply have a default I/O policy of Deny on your firewall, allow only specific devices to use your connection, and you're done. There is nothing magical about IPv6 in this regard.
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He's probably right about the push towards having to be online, but I fail to see how an IoT firewall should mitigate it.
+1.
Firewalls were never more than a half-baked stopgap anyway, intended to band-aid over the problem that system design and implementation sucked (anti-virus is the same thing, but much, much worse -- we're getting that right with the mobile iteration, at least).
The right answer is not to employ firewalls to block access to ports that shouldn't be open... the ports just shouldn't be open. Devices should only respond to packets they're supposed to respond to, and should encrypt and authenticate the conne
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"Dear customer, it has come to our attention that a device in your network is sending out malware. Until you clean up your shit, we restrict your access to Microsoft and a selection of antivirus vendors, as detailed in the most recent adhesion contract update to your original one. When you have cleaned up your act and we feel like we'll open up your internet connection again. Since you're still bound to the contract for 2 more years and we're the only ISP in your area, you can fume as much as you like but y
How long before... (Score:2)
Ring Ring Ring
Hello?
This is Mike from Windows-IOT. Oh my goodness gracious, we have detected that your toaster is compromised. You must do the needfull and give us access to your toaster's remote interface. And also we need your credit card number to pay for securing your toaster.
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I expect a very high rate of product returns, given the extreme flakiness of the internet, and complete absence of GSM for most of the planet.
It doesnt have to be online (Score:2)
Just rip out the antenna so it can't try to get on your wifi or cellular networks. Bam, good old fashioned dumb appliance that will simply do what it was originally designed for instead of trying to integrate a billion little web marketing doodads on to a screen that shouldn't be there in the first place.
Re:It doesnt have to be online (Score:5, Insightful)
Just rip out the antenna so it can't try to get on your wifi or cellular networks. Bam, good old fashioned dumb appliance that will simply do what it was originally designed for instead of trying to integrate a billion little web marketing doodads on to a screen that shouldn't be there in the first place.
"We're sorry, there seems to be a problem connecting to the internet. You will need to complete the WiFi setup before you can make your toast"
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So sorry, the boot sequence could not be completed as ordered, for some odd reason the WiFi module doesn't come online and without, I don't start. But since you didn't modify or tamper with the device, you can of course return it for a replacement!
Don't give it your password (Score:2)
Simple as that
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Not that complicated to accomplish, the problem is rather that it will not only invalidate the warranty but the device will very likely refuse to work if it notices that it can't inform the world about your toast eating habits.
I mean, what good is it to me if you can make toast and I don't hear about it? Just because you paid for it doesn't mean that it should do what you want!
There's Always a Market (Score:2)
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Yes. The question is, though, whether the market is big enough and whether licensing will allow it to exist.
Imagine some company with an interest in heavy copyright enforcement establishes the next standard format. They could well demand that anyone who wants to use that format has to be connected with the internet so they can determine whether the content you try to view has been blessed by the DRM gods. No internet, no 16k smellovision for you. And no, making a TV that offers you to play it without the DR
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Artisanal toasters. Who knew?
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Don't think so... Then again, maybe so. (Score:2)
I find it unlikely that my soldering will be part of the great IoT revolution.
Maybe the power-outlet it plugs in to, though...
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Nope (Score:2)
Not in my house, it won't.
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Not in my house, it won't.
Better stock up on all the appliances you're going to need for the rest of your life, then. Because in a few years it's going to be very hard to buy appliances that don't connect.
Overestimating (Score:2)
I think he is overestimating how many people will pay a subscription to a cell plan (even at 5bucks/mon that is 60 bucks/yr X #IoT devices) and if the IoT maker opts for WiFi, who says I am going to give the IoT device the password? And if the device does not work without wifi, I'll return it.
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And if the device does not work without wifi, I'll return it.
And then what? Your argument is much like "If the Bluray player doesn't let me record the signal, I return it". Yes. You can. But you can't get one that lets you.
It's by far not unlikely that you simply will not get any devices that give a shit what YOU want.
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I think the concern doesn't quite lie in this area. The issue isn't that the device is going to cost more, it's that it's going to cost less. Why? Because they're going to mine your data for profit and show you ads.
So a few manufacturers start making internet connected toasters that burn images (subscription or one-time-purchase?) into the kids' toast in the morning. Those get popular. Then one of them has the bright idea to burn an advertisement on one side, while burning the Disney characters on
IoT sewage pump (Score:2)
Hilarious (Score:2)
The guy undercuts his own point.
His claim is that every device will have cheap telemetry installed to report whatever the vendor wants to know. Which isn't unreasonable.
However, the avenue this telemetry uses is the question. "Such devices will not rely on home Wi-Fi systems, says Hypponen, rather undermining the principle behind the company's new Sense hardware." (They pretty much all use home wifi now.)
Until then, it's not a terribly difficult process to look at your wifi and disable connections from M
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Do you think the average person even knows how to check what devices are connected to their network or even what a MAC address is?
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I mean, how insecure IS your wifi?
In many (most?) cases, entirely insecure.
BULLSHIT. (Score:2)
alarmist nonsense (Score:3)
What about... (Score:2)
And how? (Score:2)
In order to be online, I either have to a) plug it in b) configure it with my WiFi encryption or c) provide unencrypted WiFi. It can't get online unless I put it online.
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Well, if you want to use the damn thing, you already have to plug it in. I can see them trying to force you to connect their crap to wifi or not be able to use them.
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Or your neighbours have an open guest network.
Backlash (Score:2)
We have seen several years already of adding connectivity for marketing's sake alone, and with some well known disastrous results. Problems come in two camps, only the first being security of cheap poorly designed widgets. The second is plain old functionality, which is what will ultimately keep IoT from becoming truly ubiquitous and ingrained.
Even if (big IF) security was tied up with a bow, the utility side is a big one. Fly by night companies stop support for products and shut off servers within month
Very short-sighted (Score:2)
"If it uses electricity, it will be online."
Like my metal detector's going to get any sort of connectivity signal A. out in the middle of nowhere desert areas and B. inside a mine shaft.
Brickerbot will destroy this model (Score:3)
Manufacturers are effing *CHEAP*. Yes you might be able to mesh network a device with a 2-cent chip. But you can't make a *SECURE* device for 2 cents. You'll get the usual idiot practices of hardcoded passwords being the same for all products of the same model, communicating by cleartext telnet. When bricked devices start being returned in droves, watch for manufacturers to change their minds quickly.
Ditto for not operating when not connected. maybe Brickerbot can get some of these devices to transmit a random noise signal at max power. Eventually it'll become like wifi in my condo, where I can see 25+ neighbours' systems fighting over the same 11 channels. If it needs connectivity to work at all, a *LOT* of people will avoid it.
No true. (Score:2)
My soldering iron uses electricity but does not need to be connected to the internet.
My drill uses electricity but does not need to be connected to the internet.
My power saw uses electricity but does not need to be connected to the internet.
My welder uses electricity but does not need to be connected to the internet.
My flashlight uses electricity but does not need to be connected to the internet.
My blender uses electricity but does not need to be connected to the internet.
There are a _LOT_ of devices that
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Indeed. Also, if it is not broken, then do not fix it.
Spoken like a man selling an IoT firewall! (Score:2)
I already saw some website recently showing all kinds of sill IoT things. Don't remember where, but seriously useless silly stuff.
Cloud Firewall? What could go wrong? (Score:2)
...combining a traditional firewall with a cloud service
So it's a device that is used to restrict the access between IoT devices and the outside world, but relies on a cloud service to operate? No thanks. I'll take a router that offers me two wifi networks, one for my computers/tablets/etc and one of all of the iToasters, has the ability to block one of those from reaching the outside world, and doesn't require someone else's website to configure it.
He's ignoring the obvious. (Score:2)
Devices may *want* to be or have the capability to be connected to the Internet, but w/o a CAT5 cable plugged into it, or a local WiFi password, it's not going to happen. If they try to use any near-by open hot-spots, I guess we can just put little Faraday cages around the damn things.
If a device doesn't work w/o being connected to the Internet, then I won't buy it.
And then there are smart people... (Score:2)
And those will begin to see that a device that cannot connect to the internet as an advantage and that will make sure they get that.
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But of course there is a reason for your air compressor to be on the internet. To tell its maker how and when you use it.
Huh? No, that has no use for you. Why should it? Who cares about you? It's beneficial to its maker, so it is done.
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What happens if next week an IOT device is at the heart of another terrorist attack?
It will be the news for a week then nobody gives a shit about it anymore. Why do you think this is different from the other attacks?
what if the ISP's get their way and are able to jack up the rates on bandwidth?
Why should the makers of IoT devices care? Yes, people will lament over them using their bandwidth. AFTER they bought them.
What if people start realizing that there is no incentive for manufacturers of IOT devices to give a shake about security and thus just stop buying them?
Is that a trick question? You're reading on /., so you know consumer habits when it comes to computers and internet. When, in the whole history of both of them, have security problems in any technology, in any place, in any way, EVER made people think "Hmm.