Vivaldi CEO: Stop Your Anti-Competitive Practices With Edge, Microsoft! (betanews.com) 261
Reader Mark Wilson writes: Microsoft is no stranger to pissing people off, particularly when it comes to Windows 10. There have been endless cries about forced updates, complaints about ads, moaning about privacy, and now the CEO of Vivaldi has lashed out at the company for its anti-competitive practices with Microsoft Edge. Jon von Tetzchner says that Microsoft has forgotten about the "actual real-life people that use technology in their daily lives." He takes particular umbrage at Windows 10's continued insistence of resetting the default browser to Edge. Indicating that his patience has now run out, von Tetzchner points to a 72-year-old friend who was confused by the change and unable to reverse things. He says that Microsoft is failing to respect the decisions made by users, and this is something that needs to stop.
Users Are Not Customers (Score:5, Insightful)
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None of this is new.
Companies have always attempted to mine users for information, be it online telemetry, or mailed in product registration cards. The only difference is the ease at which data is now gathered.
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Re:Users Are Not Customers (Score:5, Funny)
Yes. Free as in Cancer
Re:Users Are Not Customers (Score:4, Funny)
You are too funny, I wish I had mod points!
Vivaldi who? (Score:5, Informative)
"Vivaldi Technologies is a Software Development company, most known for its creation of the Vivaldi browser." https://vivaldi.com/ [vivaldi.com]
Minor detail the article and summary leave out.
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er
'Vivaldi CEO: 'Stop your anti-competitive practices with Edge, Microsoft!'
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Vivaldi has been mentioned frequently on /. since some developers bailed on opera to start it.
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Microsoft is a ~$500bn company. I think it's fair to assume most people know of them...
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Did you know that the two largest privately-held companies are Cargill and Koch Industries ($120B and $115B respectively)?
How many people on the street (or on Slashdot) have heard of these companies, even know the first thing about these companies, how large they are, or what they do? I barely know anything about either of these companies, except that Koch is associated with the infamous Koch brothers, and my quick Google search shows that Cargill is involved in agriculture.
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Koch Industries I would have guessed was in the top 5-10. I am surprised they're not a lot larger than that. I know who they are and what they do. I suspect a goodly number of slashdot regulars would recognize their name and probably know they're involved in energy. Cargill probably not. I didn't think of them, nor know their business. Maybe not shadowy enough to catch popular interest? =)
Anyway, while it's interesting trivia, I'm not sure the relevance or your point if you were making one relevant to the t
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Did you know that the two largest privately-held companies are Cargill and Koch Industries ($120B and $115B respectively)?.
This is a tech site. If you are here and haven't heard of Microsoft then you should kill yourself now.
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I realize that, I was responding to the OP who claimed "it's fair to assume most people know of them" solely based on the valuation of the company. He said nothing about these "most people" being on Slashdot, so I assumed he meant the general population. I pointed out that this is fallacious logic based on other companies with similar valuations which many people have probably either never heard of, or really know nothing about.
Is edge changing an actual issue? (Score:3)
And Microsoft gives not a single shit... (Score:5, Insightful)
Until they're slapped with SIGNIFICANT, ongoing, escalating fines, or the company is seriously threatened with a breakup, not a single fuck will be given.
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So no different to all corporations?
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Threatened? You are kidding, right? Unless the company is actually being broken up, with no prior warning, they won't give a fuck. They just are that kind of company.
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They might have been (and were, in a few cases) threatened by governments 20 years ago, but not today.
MS no longer has the monopoly on computer operating systems. Therefor they have no need to be as wary about anti-competitive behaviors since people have several choices now, some of them even being free.
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It is arguable that Linux is easy enough now to install that anyone can do it.
You don't have to stick with the OS your computer came with.
Also, you can buy cheap Chromebooks or Raspberry Pi computers.
In addition to all of that, iOS and Android have made significant inroads into general computing. Many people don't even have a traditional computer any longer, they just use their phone or tablet.
There are lots of choices available today that weren't there 20 years ago.
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That is simply not true.
For one, you can get a Mac with MacOS. Yes, it's a small share of the market, but it is somewhere close to 10% last I heard, which is nothing to sneeze at. They even sell these things at fancy mall stores, and have for over a decade.
Secondly, you can buy a computer with Linux (usually Ubuntu). I think there was an article here a few days ago about being able to buy a Dell preloaded with Ubuntu for less than the same machine with Windows, which is different than the past. Of cours
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I'm waiting for the Canadian anti-spam/anti-malware law to authorize class actions, sometime later this year. It will be interesting to see if US-style class actions will cause companies like MS to not install things without the users' permission.
We can only hope.
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MS has billions in the bank. They can afford the best lawyers. And their EULA explicitly absolves them of responsibility for any problems caused by their software, and EULAs have been successfully tested in court. Exactly how far do you think you're going to get with a lawsuit? Good luck with that.
AFAIC, if your company gets burned by MS like this, it's your own stupid fault. This stuff isn't a surprise.
Which won't happen, they aren't a monopoly (Score:2)
All the monopoly regulations on them expired and with Apple and Linux where they are now, you'd have a lot of trouble convincing a court MS is a monopoly. In the desktop market they are still the big dog, but Apple is a major competitor. Macs are all over the place. In the server market MS is a big player, but so is Linux. I don't know what the split is, but it wouldn't surprise me to find out Linux is on top. In the mobile arena MS is a nothing. Linux (in the form of Android) is by far the biggest with iOS
Vivaldi: Stop Your Anti-Competitive Practices (Score:5, Insightful)
Vivaldi to Microsoft: Stop Your Anti-Competitive Practices!
Microsoft to Vivaldi: No.
Seriously, Microsoft barely even listens to governments anymore, you really think they care about about browser that has less market-share than even Firefox?
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Are you talking about IE/Edge or Vivaldi.
Who even uses EDGE anyway? (Score:3)
Re:Who even uses EDGE anyway? (Score:5, Informative)
I'm only aware of one confirmed user of Edge, the brokenbrowser [brokenbrowser.com] guy who finds tons of exploits in it.
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Meh, it's a browser. They are a dime a dozen these days.
As a matter of fact, there are so many browsers I can assign a different use case to each one.
FF is my daily driver. It is also the most locked down with NoScript and several other privacy add-ons
Chrome is my multimedia browser (Netflix, etc)
IE/Edge is my work browser (remote access to company stuff)
Opera is my side project work browser (I keep various Google docs and stuff auto-loaded when this browser opens)
Chrome and Edge are generally also my "cros
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And that's the problem here. No one wants to use Edge, but MS keeps resetting the default browser back to Edge. And many users don't really know how to change this back to their preferred browser, or change it back to the browser that their grandchild set up for them that they are familiar with. It's true one can just run firefox and firefox will ask you if you want it to be the default browser. But many users probably don't really understand what the default browser means or is.
Begging popups (Score:5, Informative)
I don't get it reset...but now every time I start up a browser that isn't Edge, it pop ups a little warning saying how Edge is a better and safer browser.
It feels like it's acting like the guy who never gets picked, but keeps trying, hoping that one day he'll be the one who gets out of the dugout, dropping hints to the coach that _he_ could do better than the regulars. "Boy, you wouldn't even be on the team, but you're the owners son, so I can't fire you."
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It is for this reason that I unpinned Edge from the task bar. Those notifications were pretty annoying.
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Something like:
Edge is better!
No, It's not.
Is this the right room for an argument?
As a former blue-badge Microsoftie... (Score:3, Insightful)
If Edge is as good as MS says it is... (Score:2)
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I've given it a couple of chances. It's a substandard piece of software. It just doesn't work very well. There's a reason that despite all of MS's efforts to promote it, including fucking with people who use Chrome, it's still used by an incredibly small minority of Win10 users. That's because it's just fucking awful.
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Just because someone doesn't want to try it out, doesn't make it okay for the choice to be forced on you. I've tried it, and it sucks. Of course, I'm in your demographic as a Slachdot user who also still uses Pine, hates systemd, firewalld and a host of other new technologies that really don't improve things.
Windows 10 is absolutely crap (Score:2, Informative)
We use Windows 10 at work, due to the fact we have to use Visual Studio and Windows 10 is a sorry excuse for an OS, not only does Edge reset itself constantly, Skype locks up, Visual Studio locks up and crashes constantly, the boot time is HORRIBLE, everything is sluggish, the keyboard ghosts and that's just for starters. This morning my computer decided it would reset itself and all of it settings, for no F'ing reason.
My computer doesn't have any viruses
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Not sure how you can justify the notion that Windows 7 is ok but Windows 10 is crap.
They are basically the same OS. The only real difference is the UI. This has been more or less true since Windows 2000. The kernel (the thing that you call Windows) hasn't been rewritten from scratch with every new OS iteration.
You need to look no further than the Windows Updates for proof. The fact that the same vulnerabilities are present in several versions of Windows shows that they share a lot of code.
As for the stabili
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If it was a complete rewrite then how can their be the exact same bugs in all versions of Windows from XP through 10?
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>Windows 7 was the last decent OS they released.
Harumph.
Personally, I'd put it as MBASIC5.
However, I don't recall seeing that anywhere other than an executable for CP/M (and as BASCA under MS-DOS), so maybe I need to go back to Extended Disk BASIC version 2 . . .
hawk
all these third party app makers (Score:2)
Microsoft Does Ignore Your Preferences (Score:2)
Of course the real elephant in the room is that Windows was updated to ignore your browser preference. Cortana.
No way! (Score:2)
"He says that Microsoft is failing to respect the decisions made by users"
I simply cannot believe that a giant, greedy, faceless, amoral corporation like Microsoft would pay so little attention to what their users want.
Wont change unless forced to by law (Score:2)
Windows 10 LTSB (Score:3)
While this isn't a option for most people, the Windows 10 LTSB is what Windows 10 should be.
No Edge.
No Store (this can be sideloaded though).
No Cortana.
Control over updates/reboots
Control over telemetry data.
If Edge wasn't a flaming bag of shit... (Score:2)
... nobody would care. How can they build browsers for 20+ years and STILL fuck it up?
Re:What is he wittering about? (Score:4, Informative)
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Maybe Microsoft uses all the data it has on you to determine whether you are good with the computer or bad, and if they know it wouldn't be useful to turn the default to edge because you can handle the computer well enough to set it back to your preference, they don't even try. On the other hand, if you are a 72 year old...
Re:What is he wittering about? (Score:5, Informative)
I suspect that Microsoft has a huge amount of A/B testing going on. 50/50 chance your browser gets reset and the 50 that don't go out and blame the 50 that do for screwing it up somehow.
My coworker and I both ended up with the win10 home version after the 7 to 10 upgrade. She regularly gets popups when launching Chrome about how secure Edge is, I have never gotten one.
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Re:What is he wittering about? (Score:5, Informative)
She regularly gets popups when launching Chrome about how secure Edge is, I have never gotten one.
Settings > System > Notifications and Actions > "Get tips, tricks and suggestions as you use Windows" > NO! WTF WERE YOU THINKING, NO!
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Meanwhile, my popups tell me to buy Office365. Maybe Microsoft is just throwing things at the wall to see what sticks...
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No, but apparently I did disable "get tips tricks and suggestions" like one of the other posters said, though I don't remember doing that and I'm not sure I'd have found that setting at random what with the complete and utter pile of garbage the win10 settings screens are. Or maybe it shipped to me with it off and to her with it on?
A while back some troll here accused me of being an idiot because the windows 10 upgrade installed with "Use accent color" turned off and I complained that it was impossible to
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I've had my Win 10 machine for 10 months, I set the default browser to Firefox when I got it and it has NEVER tried to reset to Edge. I am calling shenanigans on this Vivaldi bozo and his friend...
No but it does prompt you every once in a while to ask if you want to keep your default browser and offers up everything that's registered to handle URLs. It does this no matter what the default is set to, even Edge. They do the same for documents. I've had Windows prompt me to ask if I want to keep opening .docx files with Word. Happens probably once every 6 months or so. I imagine if someone wasn't paying attention they could switch the default by mistake.
I think they do it to make sure the user is a
Re:Non Issue (Score:5, Interesting)
If you could uninstall Edge, then it would be a non-issue, since you could then make sure that a given user would never encounter that problem. Since you can't get rid of Edge, however, the problem will inevitably be encountered. Therefore it is an issue.
Re: Non Issue (Score:2, Insightful)
True. Linux is catching up to windows in the "removal of choice" dept.
Re: Non Issue (Score:4, Insightful)
You are right. Most Linux supporters don't complain about systemd, in the same way. Except for the small few that have moved to Devaun Linux, Slackware Linux, Void Linux, Alpine Linux, Guix Linux, etc. They might still complain because they moved to Distros that don't have forced systemd and the bigger box distros developing everything as if systemd is the only init system that matters. This means that systemd free or optional systems need to do extra development on anything glued to systemd.
Then there are the one like me that moved to BSD systems. I treated Linux the same way I did Windows when it got stupid. With that said, at least people can officially support Linux without systemd.
But you still have a valid point. There are plenty of Linux users that don't realize how powerless they are, even when GNU, Libre and OpenSource are under their hoods. I'd like to see a show of hands for all the folks that have examined even RMS' GNU version of Firefox to see how well that code respects them as a user. Or is the trust all based on assumption? I won't ever use Windows again, If I have a choice. But at least you know outrightly that you shouldn't trust their products. Which is good for a hand full of people that follow labels around like facts.
Those that trust Linux because it is GNU/Opensource(and sometimes Libre) are almost as bad as those that trust Microsoft because it is a paid for product.
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Or moved to Oracle Linux 6. That also doesn't have the Cry Baby Poettering carp, has Gnome 2, and has security updates for free for quite a while.
Re: Non Issue (Score:4, Informative)
As much as I dislike systemd, it's hardly the same thing at all. IE and Edge are applications that should be no more or less embedded than any other application. Systemd is a system-level component/utility. The equivalent would be demanding that Microsoft take out, say, the event logging system.
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There needs to be *something* available to download your preferred browser when things stop working (or with a fresh install).
I think we need to move past this claim that a browser is some optional application like Quickbooks.
Yes an OS should come with a minimal browser to get you started. Once you've downloaded a replacement, you should be able to uninstall that minimal browser or at least totally remove it from your desktop
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Yes an OS should come with a minimal browser to get you started. Once you've downloaded a replacement, you should be able to uninstall that minimal browser or at least totally remove it from your desktop
Some OSes do, most don't. In fact often the system relies on browser components because they've become integral to personal computing, iOS and OSX for example do not let you uninstall the browser at all, the former doesn't let you even install a replacement. If you want a barebones OS with no programs that you then have to go and download every little bit you need then you can go and get a minimal Linux distro.
This isn't 1995 anymore, the web is prevalent and it is expected that a computer (or computing dev
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You do have a point that the browser should not be minimal, along with the mail program, word processor, spreadsheet, photo and video editing software etc.
On the other hand, internet access is pretty common now and people should be able to have choice including at least changing their defaults, removing icons from the desktop and have their choice stick.
Apple and especially IOS are special cases and expecting much out of them for choice is like expecting choice in a console.
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Removing IE from Windows 8 and 8.1 was a breeze. You had to go to windows components and uncheck it. I have done in several occasion. It was possible since Windows XP embedded / Windows Fundamentals for legacy PCs
Re: Non Issue (Score:3)
There's a big enough contingent unhappy with systemd to fork Debian. Windows users, however, can't fork Windows. With Linux, if you don't like it, you can change it. With Windows, it's a Hobsons choice of whichever Windows variant you like from a choice of 1.
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We can tell Microsoft to go fork themselves.
Just avoid win 10!
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I am just happy the full monopoly of init.d is gone.
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If you don't like systemd, you're free to choose a Linux distro which doesn't have it. There are plenty of such distros around, including Slackware and Devuan. And if that's not good enough for you, you're free to roll your own distro. It isn't that hard to do, and all the components are freely available.
Try that with Windows.
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I find it to be no problem at all to install Debian without systemd. Sure, if you want the last bit of inert systemd cruft to be removed, it takes a bit more effort, but even that is hardly "impossible". On the other hand, there are enough morons that do not see that systemd is really a power-grab to the detriment of Linux.
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It's strange how angry Linux supporters get about how it isn't really possible to remove IE or Edge from Windows without breaking things.
Linux supporter here. I don't give a fuck about it.
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It's understandable why you would want to remain anonymous. Why would Linux supporters give a fig about Microsoft resetting the default browser to Edge when Linux users don't come across Edge on
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You've never been to this site before have you? I mean the claim that people are not /were not up in arms over systemd is down right laughable. Either that or your a YUUUGE Hillary fan and are jumping on the alternative facts bandwagon.
FTFY
Re:Non Issue (Score:5, Informative)
Source: I maintain a few dozen computers spread among various clients (small businesses) as a side job. My SOP was to disable Cortana and remove it, Edge, and the Windows Store from the task bar. It was a major PITA having to do this over and over on so many computers. I seriously doubt it was user error - that would've required a few dozen users to simultaneously decide "I think I'll re-enable Cortana and pin it, Edge, and the Windows store back to my task bar" to jive with my experience Microsoft may have done it again recently - I got fed up with it and just disabled the update service on my personal Win 10 machine so I wouldn't know. My next planned update is beginning of Feb. Haven't yet made the rounds this month to check my clients' computers.
Re: Non Issue (Score:5, Informative)
Every major windows 10 build update resets your program defaults to all of the Microsoft applications (including edge) and pins several Microsoft applications to your taskbar if you've unpinned them. Namely edge, store, and cortana.
So far in the history of windows 10, this has happened four times.
Re: Non Issue (Score:5, Insightful)
Which is 4 times too many
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Sounds like criminal anti-competitive practices to me. Well, they will do it until they get slapped down. Would not be the first time.
Re:Non Issue (Score:5, Interesting)
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Hahahaha!!! You really think Trump's DOJ is going to prosecute that case? Wake up.
TO COURT WITH YOU, MS KNAVES! (Score:2)
perhaps a quick tri
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It reset the default browser after the big October update; re-enabled Cortana and put it back on the task bar if you'd disabled it IIRC. Several updates (including the big October one) have also put Edge and the Windows Store back in your task bar if you had unpinned them.
Didn't happen to me. I've got three Win10 machines and also remove/hide/disable Cortana, Edge and the MS Store, and haven't seen them again since. Are these updates different based on location?
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I think MS needs to be threatened with a 500M fine again by the EU...
Re:Non Issue (Score:4, Informative)
Wow, people still posts these replies? Because, if there is ONE thing windows is known for over the years, it is a complete guarantee of consistency. That what happens on one machine happens on millions of others.
As a counterpoint, my work machine would reset html and pdf file associations back to edge on a weekly basis. Had to edit the registry to get rid of the behaviour.
Re:Non Issue (Score:5, Funny)
Clearly Windows isn't ready for the desktop.
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My impression is that MS is not even trying anymore. Win 10 becomes less and less ready for the desktop.
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It's understandable why you would want to remain anonymous.
"you can set Firefox as the default web browser but not really the option on the update to by pass it." Joy Kemprai [microsoft.com] - Microsoft
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So... Microsoft automatically has the high ground for who gets to use seniors as their guinea pig? Interesting to see Slashdot take their side for a change.
What part of "install a few different browsers and let them choose instead of using seniors as guinea pigs" didn't you understand, troll?
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He takes particular umbrage at Windows 10's continued insistence of resetting the default browser to Edge. Indicating that his patience has now run out, von Tetzchner points to a 72-year-old friend who was confused by the change and unable to reverse things.
People running Firefox or Chrome haven't run into this problem ...
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Only if you defer all updates. Every major Windows 10 update resets a lot of settings to Microsoft default.
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It says something about far Microsoft has fallen that not even leveraging their power over the operating system can get them any penetration with their built-in browser. I'd say they have not only lost the browser war, they're no longer in the same browser universe. Part of it has to do with the fact that Edge is truly a horrible piece of software, and part of it is that Google has basically colonized Windows with Chrome.
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I think another angle is there is a longstanding behavior for users to not use the built-in Windows browser. The fact the name "changed" from IE to Edge doesn't factor for people. They just go "Oh, this is that Windows browser again? Well, disable as usual and download the one I always use."
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Well, that and Edge just plain sucks.
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It's named Vivaldi because it's made by a company led by some of the same people who were behind Opera, and they want to capitalize on the name without ending up in court. In the association game, if you say "Vivaldi", the word you get back is likely "Opera".
In other words, they market it as a browser that they don't believe can stand on its own behind its own proud name, but needs help by alluding to a better known product.
Unfortunately, I think the fat lady sings for both Opera and Vivaldi.
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I wonder if the Trumpian political environment has emboldened MS to return to its pushy monopolistic ways.