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MPAA Wants ISPs to Disconnect Persistent Pirates (torrentfreak.com) 263

Ernesto Van der Sar, reporting for TorrentFreak: The MPAA wants Internet providers and services to take stronger actions against persistent copyright infringers. Ideally, the most egregious pirates should lose their accounts permanently, the group says. To accomplish this ISPs should be required to track the number of notices they receive for each account. In recent weeks, many groups and individuals have voiced their opinions about the future of the DMCA, responding to a U.S. Copyright Office consultation. This includes the MPAA, which acts on behalf of the major Hollywood studios. In a 71-page submission the group outlines many problems with the current law, asking for drastic reforms. Ideally, the group would like search engines to enforce a "stay down" policy ensuring that content can't reappear under different URLs. In addition, it would like registrars to suspend domain names of pirate sites, such as The Pirate Bay.The problem is that ISPs don't necessarily see this abuse as a problem.
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MPAA Wants ISPs to Disconnect Persistent Pirates

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  • How about the MAFIAA stop producing crap and expecting people to pay through the nose to see and hear it?

    • LOL (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward

      Lol, also like the ISP's are gonna bend over and willingly lose money on behalf of somebody else.

    • If it's such crap, then why are people bothering to steal it?
      • Only top German and Swedish cars get stolen in the US?
    • by Z80a ( 971949 ) on Sunday April 17, 2016 @08:31AM (#51926129)

      MPAA don't do movies, the studios do.
      What MPAA do is to act like basically norton anti virus and constantly keep the studios scared of the EVIL pirates, so they can keep grabbing cash off the studios to "combat" that EVIL thing.
      Basically alarmist scammers of the highest degree.

    • by Applehu Akbar ( 2968043 ) on Sunday April 17, 2016 @12:25PM (#51927041)

      How about the MAFIAA stop producing crap and expecting people to pay through the nose to see and hear it?

      And stop making it difficult to access content that we do pay for. Why in hell should movies that have gone to stream "expire?" Leave the movie on Netflix/ Amazon/ Hulu, so you can keep making money on it.

      • It takes a certain amount of money to host a video: power and internet access, server maintenance, backup facilities and the like. If a video isn't pulling its weight, it's actually costing money, not making money. That's why they "expire".
        • DVDs rented out by a service like Netflix incur a cost to store, mail out, and check back in. Yet Netflix keeps DVDs until they physically wear out. Streaming movies cost virtually nothing to maintain and backup on servers. The only reason they "expire" is Hollywood licensing rules.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 17, 2016 @05:15AM (#51925701)

    Why is it the ISP's responsibility to enforce copyright laws? Piracy is only a problem for the ISP if excessive bandwidth is consumed and it results in degraded network performance. But that doesn't really have anything to do with copyright laws.

    There need to be different penalties depending on the type of infringement. The person who downloads a couple of movies on bittorrent and doesn't realize they're also uploading is very different from a person who is collecting money for access to a site with a massive collection of movies. In short, to collect a large settlement, it should be shown that there's an intent to distribute and/or the person infringing upon copyrights is profiting from doing so. This would probably render it unprofitable to pursue individuals who download a few movies but don't intend to share them.

    The focus needs to be on people who are making the movies available to begin with, those who are sharing massive amounts of content, and those who are making a profit from piracy.

    Unlike what seems like a large portion of Slashdot, I don't think there's an ethical defense for piracy. However, the punishment ought to be proportional to the egregiousness of the offense committed. The massive settlements against people who weren't infringing a lot of content is absurd. And there's no reason to disconnect people from internet access for piracy, either temporarily or permanently. That's ridiculous.

    I'd suggest that for the casual offender, the maximum settlement should be the larger of 1.3*(retail price)*(number of proven downloads) or, 10*(retail price). Let the much larger settlements only apply to the most egregious offenders.

    • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 17, 2016 @06:43AM (#51925877)

      Unlike what seems like a large portion of Slashdot, I don't think there's an ethical defense for piracy.

      It's not so much that a people defend piracy, it's that there is a large reaction against the means the record/movie industry is using to battle something that should be their problem.
      If they want to change their product to make it harder to pirate I'm completely fine with that.
      Lobbying to change the law to make reverse engineering illegal is something I don't approve of. If I want to figure out how a product I bought works then they shouldn't have a say in the matter. If the record companies didn't want me to do that they shouldn't have sold me the product.
      I would like to keep the laws in a state where you have to prove that someone is doing wrong before punishing them.
      I would also like that everyone is treated equally under the law and that means that the "victim" can't have a say in what the punishment should be, otherwise we will get a situation where hurting a nice and forgiving person is less severe than one who is vengeful.

      Now we have a bunch of companies that wants to change the law so that they can point out people they don't like and punish them without a fair trial.
      Not only that, they want other companies to go through the work to do the punishment. That wouldn't be a problem if everyone just told those companies to fuck off.
      Unfortunately that isn't happening and because of that those companies have become the largest threat we have to functional democracy where everyone is treated equal under the law. Not even terrorist groups like ISIS are close to causing that much harm to our society.

      I don't care much for piracy. I got too busy with other hobbies and more or less stopped consuming the kind of media involved there, but I rather see all the companies involved with RIAA/MPAA dismantled and everyone working for them becoming unemployed with all the damage that comes with that than let them change the laws the way they want to.
      So whenever someone comes crying about "how should the artist get paid" all I can say is bugger off, you don't have a right to get paid and you sure as hell don't have the right to change the laws to make your business profitable.

      TL;DR; It's not in defense of piracy, it's in defense of a functional legal system.

      • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 17, 2016 @10:39AM (#51926585)
        Don't forget the part where the record/movie industry lobbied their way to extend copyright duration to absurd lengths, and in some countries, actually stole works from the public domain. It is one of the most visible and egregious examples of how badly corruption and bribery permeate governments across the globe.
      • whenever someone comes crying about "how should the artist get paid"

        The RIAA/MPAA argue that "the artists should be paid", but their actions are not about paying artists. It's about preserving the oligopoly status of their members, the record companies and movie studios.

        As a musical artist, I agree with you that they - the RIAA (and MPAA) should not have the right to get laws changed to make it's member companies' businnesses profitable. If their business model is nolonger profitable, it's because they failed to adapt.

        I don't need the RIAA or its members. In fact, I'd be be

    • by AK Marc ( 707885 ) on Sunday April 17, 2016 @06:50AM (#51925901)
      By MPAA logic, Ford should refuse to sell to anyone with a speeding ticket, and GM will repo your car if you get a DUI. For some reason the silly MPAA suggestions sound even more insane when applied to other industries.

      Unlike what seems like a large portion of Slashdot, I don't think there's an ethical defense for piracy.

      It causes no harm, and anything that causes no harm should not be illegal. If you don't like that, please point out the error in it.

      • by Megol ( 3135005 )

        Of course it does harm - the reason copyright was invented was to encourage production of art like books, plays, music etc. It costs money and effort to produce, how could removal of the encouragement be without harm?

        • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

          by Anonymous Coward

          the MPAA is full of notorious pirates who say they changed your story just enough to legally use it without paying you. If you do not like it they would like you to meet their kennel of voracious lawyers who will devour your resources.

        • by AK Marc ( 707885 )
          Prior to copyright, there were as many or more books, plays, music, etc.

          Copyright is used to kill fan fiction and other things that are creative works.
      • Causes no harm? (Score:4, Interesting)

        by Anonymous Brave Guy ( 457657 ) on Sunday April 17, 2016 @09:06AM (#51926265)

        It causes no harm, and anything that causes no harm should not be illegal. If you don't like that, please point out the error in it.

        It causes no harm as long as the work has already been created.

        It causes great harm if the deal between society and creators, as set out through copyright, is that the creators have to invest whatever is necessary to create a work that will benefit others, but then they have a mechanism to generate revenue in return by controlling distribution for a while. Allowing creators to create as part of this deal, but then failing to effectively enforce the copyright protections, is failing to hold up the other side of the bargain, pure and simple. The harm is then whatever it cost the creators to create and share the work in the first place plus the opportunity cost for them because they didn't invest their resources into something else useful instead.

        If society feels that the current bargain is not appropriate for today's world, that's fine, it can change the laws. If society collectively wants to do away with copyright because "information wants to be free" or whatever, fine, do it. Some people will still create new content and no doubt some people will still find ways to do so commercially. But society shouldn't complain if it makes that change and then finds that, lacking the same incentive to create and share new works, hardly anyone is making big summer blockbusters or original AAA quality computer games or well-produced studio albums or high school math textbooks with thousands of carefully constructed exercises and matching answer books for teachers any more. Nor should it complain when other business models that are less reliant on simply paying for something you find valuable -- things like blatant product placement throughout TV shows and movies, or subscription-only on-line software -- become the norm, even though a lot of consumers don't like them.

        • Re:Causes no harm? (Score:5, Insightful)

          by Kernel Kurtz ( 182424 ) on Sunday April 17, 2016 @03:07PM (#51927709)

          Some people will still create new content and no doubt some people will still find ways to do so commercially. But society shouldn't complain if it makes that change and then finds that, lacking the same incentive to create and share new works, hardly anyone is making big summer blockbusters or original AAA quality computer games or well-produced studio albums or....

          People were creating art long before there was such a thing as copyright.

          The world before copyright gave us Shakespeare and Beethoven. The world now gives us Justin Bieber and Sharknado.

          Nuff said.

      • by ark1 ( 873448 )
        Actually GM wants to sells to those who don't follow laws of the road. More accidents means more cars and replacement parts needed. I'm sure sales gained from accidents are far superior to losses from fewer drivers (deaths/suspended permits).
        • by AK Marc ( 707885 )
          The ISP wants to sell to pirates. But MPAA definitions, 100% of people are pirates, if the ISPs didn't sell to them, they'd have no customers. Same as GM. GM and ISPs both want to sell to criminals.
      • Unlike what seems like a large portion of Slashdot, I don't think there's an ethical defense for piracy.

        It causes no harm, and anything that causes no harm should not be illegal.

        It's not clear that it does cause no harm, though, as a body. Some cases of it cause no harm. Some have even been shown to be beneficial to the copyright holder, as advertising. In some cases, copyright infringement may actually cause harm by decreasing the value of legitimate distribution. What should not happen, however, is the assumption that it causes harm; damages should have to be shown in every case.

    • by QuietLagoon ( 813062 ) on Sunday April 17, 2016 @09:34AM (#51926381)

      Why is it the ISP's responsibility to enforce copyright laws?...

      It's not. This proposal is the basis for increasing the extortion done by the MPAA, e.g., "pay us $5000 and we won't have your ISP terminate your Internet access".

      .
      It makes it a lot easier for the MPAA surrogates to extort people into paying up, instead of paying for a lawyer to defend oneself against trumped-up charges.

    • by QuietLagoon ( 813062 ) on Sunday April 17, 2016 @09:38AM (#51926395)

      ...Unlike what seems like a large portion of Slashdot, I don't think there's an ethical defense for piracy....

      I also do not think there is an ethical defense for piracy.

      .,br> However, there is also no ethical defense for the sloppy tactics used by the MPAA (and RIAA) to identify, accuse, pass judgment and punish. They have been shown time and time again to operate outside the law, accusing, judging and punishing innocent people.

      If the MPAA and RIAA want to use the law to catch and punish pirates, then the MPAA and RIAA should work within the law to do so.

    • Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • by RogerWilco ( 99615 ) on Sunday April 17, 2016 @09:56AM (#51926449) Homepage Journal

      Unlike what seems like a large portion of Slashdot, I don't think there's an ethical defense for piracy.

      I have pirated one movie. I ad bought a new Blu-Ray player a few years ago, and wanted to watch Avatar on it with some friends.
      I couldn't get it to play because it needed a newer version of the player's software. Something with Avatar using a never version of DRM.
      The software update program would not work as it ran in SD, not HD and my beamer didn't understand it, or something like that. Something weird with the HDMI.

      After two hours of messing with it instead of having a fun evening with my friends, I downloaded the movie. That ran without a problem.

      I haven't bought a Blu-Ray since, my player gets used for DVDs and CDs but mostly gathers dust.

      I hate this kind of crap. They should make it easier to use the legal version than the illegal version. Preferably no DRM at all. I've only bough songs on iTunes that are DRM free and would prefer if all companies used that model. DRM just makes the experience worse for your paying customers and doesn't really hinder the pirates.

    • by sjames ( 1099 ) on Sunday April 17, 2016 @10:58AM (#51926671) Homepage Journal

      There is a deeper question though. Why should someone be sent to digital exile based on the ALLEGATIONS of the MPAA?

      They are basically saying (in public) That they believe their word should hold the power of law. Imagine. They want to just point to someone and like that, they're gone from the digital world. No witnesses, no trial, no right to face an accuser, just gone because the King said so.

      Someone who would ask for that with a straight face is the last person who should ever have any authority over anyone.

    • by thegarbz ( 1787294 ) on Sunday April 17, 2016 @11:00AM (#51926677)

      Unlike what seems like a large portion of Slashdot, I don't think there's an ethical defense for piracy.

      How about piracy being an ethical offence against the industry slowly taking away your rights in the media, your product, your ability to watch something, to buy something, to have something come into public domain, rooting your computer, breaking a disc playback format, attempting to criminalise or prevent format shifting which is legal in most of the world...

      The list of the ethical breaches of the movie / music industry just has no end.

      I would happily pay for media, but no one seems to sell me what I want except for the pirate bay.

    • Unlike what seems like a large portion of Slashdot, I don't think there's an ethical defense for piracy.

      Like with all things I think the world is more complex than absolute pronouncements. Copyright was always meant to be a tradeoff. The government grants a limited time monopoly on distibution in exchange for people getting certain rights and the work entering the public domain.

      One half of that deal has been renaged on, with DRM and the ever extending copyright terms.

      Technically, me using a region free play

    • Unlike what seems like a large portion of Slashdot, I don't think there's an ethical defense for piracy.

      The issue is that digital rights are an alien concept. Just like I - as a non-physicist - will never truly grasp subatomic physics, large portions of digital rights make ZERO sense to a consumer. That's a huge sign that they're nonsensical.

      You can't explain to a non-lawyer that it's unethical or wrong to take the songs from a CD you've bought and put them on your new iPod. The law tells us that's wrong, unethical, and illegal, and we're all bad people for doing it. It's roughly equivalent to a farmer

  • Why disconnect? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by loonycyborg ( 1262242 ) on Sunday April 17, 2016 @05:48AM (#51925773)
    This doesn't make sense. Or maybe it does. Given that having access to Internet is considered basic human right nowadays it seems kinda like a powergrab, essentially they're seeking a power to disconnect any people they want from society.
    • by gweihir ( 88907 )

      And that is the problem. While they are trying to save their outdated business-model, the only way they can do so has so massive drawbacks for individuals and society as a whole, it can never work. Their business-model is dead, the only question is how much damage they can do before they finally realize that.

    • by snadrus ( 930168 )

      Losing this basic human right of communication is akin to home imprisonment.

      So they're lobbying for home imprisonment without due process due to a household member's actions that may-or-may-not have reduced an entertainment provider's profits!

      Then what? Do rent-homes & apartments permanently stay disconnected? Or does the restrictions follow anyone with the same name? Either is insane.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 17, 2016 @05:58AM (#51925787)

    The MPAA doesn't want ISP to take stronger actions, the really don't want ISP's at all. There own fantasy world, without internet, where they transport there product using ships, trains and lorries to brick stores which they can tell to put any competitor on the bottom shelve. That is what the want.

  • Hmmm... (Score:2, Interesting)

    by EmeraldBot ( 3513925 )

    Between the incredible amounts of money they hoard and the iron fist they exert for control, the MPAA strikes me as far closer to something resembling a pirate than the loner in his basement who downloads a movie on Friday nights. Honestly, I think the MPAA should be forced to prove their victim would have bought the material otherwise, if they didn't have the opportunity to pirate it. That's the say, I don't think it's illegal to pirate a movie that's unavailable legitimately, because then there's no loss

    • "Between the incredible amounts of money they hoard and the iron fist they exert for control, the MPAA strikes me as far closer to something resembling a pirate than the loner in his basement who downloads a movie on Friday nights."

      Did you pay attention that in this entry, as it happens in others when there's a strongly economical partner (i.e.: articles about global warming) some 80% or more of the comments come from Anonymous Cowards going on with either long-winded cliche opinions or non-related ones wit

  • by auzy ( 680819 ) on Sunday April 17, 2016 @07:00AM (#51925931)

    If the law also allows DMCA abusers to be shut down too, I have less of a problem with this law (by which I mean, companies which send out DMCA notices incorrectly). And by shut down, I mean, being unable to send out notices in the future, and disconnected from the internet entirely (including their company website)

    It wouldn't surprise me if all members of the MPAA have incorrectly sent out DMCA notices before, for media they had no rights too (a news station for instance shut down a video of a Mars landing uploaded by NASA).

    So, if laws were put in place to allow companies to be shut down, if they abuse the DMCA, or make a mistake, I wouldn't have a problem with this, because it would ensure that notices were only sent in cases that they were warranted.

    But the way it stands, it just opens the system up to more bullying and abuse.

  • As I understand they are they ones with the problem that they need to address. I can quite happily live without watching any more films. In fact I did for many years before downloading became possible. Then I developed an interest in films and even started visiting the cinema once in a while. Based on my own experience piracy = promotion. They should be grateful.
    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Opportunist ( 166417 )

      Correlation =! causation. A lot of people stopped downloading movies and at the same time they stopped going to the movies, that is true. Hence the conclusion that downloading means people go to the movies more.

      The fallacy is that they stopped going to the movies 'cause they stopped downloading. Closer to the truth is simply that they stopped both because the junk produced today ain't even worth the bandwidth, let alone money.

  • Say no to piracy (Score:5, Insightful)

    by xororand ( 860319 ) on Sunday April 17, 2016 @07:47AM (#51926035)

    Piracy is an act of robbery or criminal violence at sea.
    We should not tolerate marine thuggery.

    Copyright infringement, however, can't be easily equated to piracy or theft.

    https://www.gnu.org/philosophy... [gnu.org]
    http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/... [findlaw.com]

    • That's an excellent addition to any file sharing related discussion. People have become so accustomed to the term 'piracy' and 'theft' in this context that they have forgotten where those terms originated from and why. Another lovely term I've come across in Nordic Countries is 'illegal downloading', often used by local MPAA/IFPI organizations. This despite the fact that in these countries downloading is in fact legal whereas unauthorized sharing is illegal (in most cases, except to your friends and family)

    • by Opportunist ( 166417 ) on Sunday April 17, 2016 @08:37AM (#51926149)

      But ... the lack of pirates is one of the leading causes of global warming! Why do you hate the planet?

    • You dolt. Piracy has referred to copyright infringement for hundreds of years. The GNU philosophy statement is disingenuous in that sense, and cannot support a factual argument. Semantic, sure, but not factual.

      The case you linked to has a footnote clarifying what a pirated work is, and how that differs from bootlegs.

      Take your links, add a dictionary, and your support actually does not support you.

  • by dk20 ( 914954 ) on Sunday April 17, 2016 @08:26AM (#51926117)

    MPAA - Your action will lead to another company losing revenue.

    Using your maths, each customer lost thanks to your rule is a multiple of the actual loss.

    So, again using your rules, how about you compensate the ISP for each customer you terminate to the tune of $250,000?

    I mean that is the number you use right? And it is all about lost revenue so I am sure you can appreciate the revenue the ISP has lost and want to compensate them just as you expect to be compensated for your "losses".

    • That's about right. That's pretty much what the average customer could have paid for his internet access to the ISP in the next 70 or so years.

      That's actually a pretty conservative estimate, considering that it's 70 years from now, not, like with copyright, lifetime + 70 years.

  • by Opportunist ( 166417 ) on Sunday April 17, 2016 @08:34AM (#51926135)

    You want me to disconnect my customer, who will then burden and pester me and my support about it, I will lose that customer and potentially others, if word gets around that I randomly disconnect my customers based on nothing more but hearsay from you and your whims? You want me to risk my common carrier status and insanely bad press and PR? Without any kind of compensation whatsoever?

    You find the door yourself or should I just toss you out the window?

    • by mark-t ( 151149 )
      I would imagine that the standard for such disconnection would be considerably higher than hearsay.... presumably, actual guilt or innocence would be established by a court of law. If the MPAA isn't willing to put up with the waiting times for going through the legal system first, that's just too fucking bad for them.
      • by Ken D ( 100098 )

        If that was true then they wouldn't need to try to strong arm ISPs into doing this, because the court judgment could just include this.

  • by overshoot ( 39700 ) on Sunday April 17, 2016 @08:59AM (#51926241)
    s/Persistent Pirates/Repeatedly Accused Pirates/
  • by QuietLagoon ( 813062 ) on Sunday April 17, 2016 @09:29AM (#51926359)
    If the MPAA wants to do this, they had better significantly improve their ability to properly identify real pirates, and stop using the "your IP address" type of garbage.

    .
    There also needs to be significant penalties if the MPAA mis-identifies someone as a pirate. I'm thinking a proper penalty for mis-identifying a pirate would be that the MPAA's Internet access be terminated.

  • by bhmit1 ( 2270 ) on Sunday April 17, 2016 @09:32AM (#51926377) Homepage

    The MPAA isn't the judicial branch, they don't get to be a judge and jury in these cases, they are the plaintiff. Nor are they the legislative branch, if they want to write a law, they need to buy off their congressman like they always have before. And the ISP isn't a police force, they are a witness and vendor to the defendant. If the MPAA wants to enforce penalties like this, use the legal system that already exists rather than acting like the mafia and enforcing their own laws with their own judge and their own police force.

    Regardless, I don't see what reason the ISPs would have to work with the MPAA, it's against their financial best interest to eliminate consumers. And it's against the better interest of society to have laws that permanently cut off individuals from the internet, this has become a basic necessity in modern life, not unlike electricity made its transition to necessity in the last century. Anyone that cannot legally use the internet would be much more likely to be unemployed, possibly homeless and a burden on the local society.

    If an ISP chooses to enforce these policies, they should immediately lose any local monopoly on providing internet service, open up the area to competition, possibly municipal internet. And ISPs should become liable for denial of service for any reason that is not legally recognized and where an individual was never convicted of a crime. It would be nice if the government found a few laws that the MPAA violated just for attempting to get a policy like this through, discrimination against individuals, anti-trust, extortion, etc.

  • by medv4380 ( 1604309 ) on Sunday April 17, 2016 @09:39AM (#51926399)
    I'm fine with the courts restricting someones internet access due to excessive piracy, or other internet related crimes. I'm not so fine with someone doing that with outside of Due Process. The MPAA, and other has send DMCA take down notices to the IP address of Printers.
  • they are going to object to their own bypass of due process when they suddenly find themselves booted off the internet.

  • Maybe. But probably not.

  • by AnotherBlackHat ( 265897 ) on Sunday April 17, 2016 @11:29AM (#51926775) Homepage

    Pirates use the internet because it's currently the easiest way to do things.
    But if it was impossible to spread "unapproved" media through the internet, people would just go back to sneaker-net.
    I can buy 32 gig on portable media for under 10 bucks.
    Swapping drives with just two people 5 days a week is yields a respectable 4.2 Mbps "sneaker-net a bandwidth".
    You might have to wait a month for content to saturate the network, but everybody would have access to everything.

    And that's close to the minimum a sneaker-net would be.
    Most people have more than 2 friends they could swap with, and 128 gig drives are pretty cheap.
    Things are going great, and it's only getting better - Moore's law FTW.

  • My understanding is: VPNs are not that expensive. I think some are actually free.

    So what is the problem?

  • by JustAnotherOldGuy ( 4145623 ) on Sunday April 17, 2016 @11:52AM (#51926891) Journal

    "MPAA Wants ISPs to Disconnect Persistent Pirates"....and they went on to say, "and we want a pony! And a 60-ft red yacht with gold handrails! And we want the letter "E" removed from the dictionary!"

  • Let's first ban all forms of DRM so that I can easily just watch my BluRay disks or copy them to harddisk without having to go through dubious providers.

    Once DRM is gone and piracy therefore has dropped considerably as you can simply pay for DRM-free copies on the Internet, we can talk about hunting "pirates".

    The MPAA has to understand that their 1970s business models of "renting cartivision tapes" just can't coexist with a computerized digital world where making copies is trivial.

  • Until campaign donations are are control, what do you expect?

  • MPAA has been found multiple times pirating movies and issuing illegal DMCA take down notices. Thus I agree, that pirates, meaning all MPAA members, should automatically have their Internet terminated.
    This includes any company filing a DMCA take down notice, that turns out to be false.

Ya'll hear about the geometer who went to the beach to catch some rays and became a tangent ?

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