More Cities Use DNA To Catch Dog Owners Who Don't Pick Up Waste 177
dkatana writes: For many cities one of the biggest cleaning expenses is dealing with dog poop. While it is impossible to ask the birds to refrain from splattering the city, dogs have owners and those owners are responsible for disposing of their companion's waste. The few who shirk their duty create serious problems for the rest. Poop is not just a smelly inconvenience. It's unsanitary, extra work for cleaning crews, and in the words of one Spanish mayor, on a par with vandalism. Cities have tried everything from awareness campaigns with motorized poo videos, to publishing offenders names to mailing the waste back to the dog owner. In one case, after a 147 deliveries, dog waste incidents in the town dropped 70 percent. Those campaigns have had limited effect and after an initial decline in incidents, people go back to their old ways. Which has left many cities resorting to science and DNA identification of waste. Several European cities, including Naples and one borough in London, are building DNA registries of pets. Offending waste will then be tested and the cost of the analysis charged to the dog owner, along with a fine.
Sure it's expensive (Score:2)
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Maybe it depends on where you're at in the U.S. My perception is locally here in Michigan, litter are not nearly as bad as it was in the 60-70s. However, I was in Brooklyn last year & was shocked at the trash everywhere. There were garbage cans, lots of garbage cans everywhere. Go figure.
In London it wasn't great either but I never saw a litter can anywhere. I assume because of the years of anti-terrorism as cans make a good place to put explosives.
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State lines (Score:2)
One thing Michigan has going for it is the 10 cent deposit on carbonated beverage containers
According to an otherwise pro-deposit bottle bill FAQ [bottlebill.org], deposit laws like this require people to return empty containers in the same state in which the beverage was purchased. This discriminates against people in a state temporarily, who may buy a beverage in one state, drive across state lines, and finish consuming it in a different state.
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Beyond the singling out of dogs (cats anyone? hmmm?), poster is correct in that there are certainly far more pressing cleanup needs before going to these lengths. Are they going to start using DNA to figure out who dropped the gum? candy wrappers? used tires?
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Have you never been around a cat? Cats don't ever leave their poop out in the open, unless they're senile. It's instinctive for them to bury it. It pisses off some people with gardens (they'll bury their poop in the garden because the soil is loose), but you never have to worry about stepping on cat turds on sidewalks or in the lawn.
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Simple solution (Score:3)
Employ individuals to clean up the waste and pay for it by requiring yearly dog tag renewal which includes the "poo pickup" tax. Owners don't need to worry anymore, it creates jobs, and it's paid for by the people who create the problem.
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I don't let my dog poop elsewhere. Don't make this my problem.
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It is your problem because there's shit everywhere. It may not be from your dog but it's likely going to end up under your foot. Kinda like saying "I shit at home so don't make paying for sewers my problem"
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Deterrent tax (Score:2)
it is his problem regardless of if he even owns a dog. In which case, why limit the tax to dog owners?
Tax the people who cause the problem for others in order to encourage them to stop causing the problem for others. It's the same reason tobacco is taxed, as cigar and cigarette smoke causes medical problems for others. It's also the same reason motor fuel is taxed, as tailpipe emissions cause medical problems for cyclists and EV drivers, and road wear causes unevenness problems for cyclists and EV drivers.
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as cigar and cigarette smoke causes medical problems for others
So, now that indoor smoking is prohibited, we should stop all the tobacco taxes, right?
All second hand smoking studies were done on people who worked in places where people smoked, not walked past a guy smoking in a smoking hut. When you can prove any harm from the whiff of smoke you get walking by a smoker, then you can complain, until then, go f yourself.
Health insurance (Score:3)
Increased health insurance premiums also cause problems for others, especially if a nationwide health care law forbids insurers to deny coverage for preexisting emphysema or preexisting nicotine dependence, and especially if the law includes a subsidy for people with an income in or near poverty to buy insurance.
To avoid a John Q scenario (Score:2)
If I wonder why calls to repeal US Medicaid entirely were not more widespread, even prior to the ACA. Perhaps the answer is that some level of government services, such as guaranteed health insurance, reduces the rate of violent crime to obtain those services by force. (Citation: the film John Q.)
Re:Simple solution (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Simple solution (Score:5, Funny)
Well, what about allowing a credit for people who do the right thing and pick up after their pets?
After they pick up the poo, they mail it into the relevant authority (along with a photo of the act, and a close-up of the dogs' ID tags/barcodes/whatever), and said authority issues them a credit against the cost of the poo-pickup-tax.
I mean, who wouldn't want to mail some poo to a govt. department?
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Better idea. It's not a credit against the license but rather a check sent to the submitter of the dog shit. This way non-owners can clean up other people's shit and get paid for it. Require the shit to be sent via the post-office.
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Then you're telling people it's OK to let their dogs shit everywhere. [snip] Costs will go up every year, and the people who actually clean up after their dogs will be the ones who suffer the most.
You're not telling them it's OK, you're telling them that the more they let their dogs shit everywhere the more they're going to have to pay in tax every year. Want to pay a lower dog tag bill? Pick up after them otherwise, be prepared to pay for your pets shit.
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Re:Simple solution (Score:5, Insightful)
That's like charging a "speeding tax" to everyone on the road and then letting people drive as fast as they want.
It's a minority of the dog owners in most towns that don't pick up after their dogs. Charging everyone for a few shitheads violating the law is bad policy, no matter what the offense is.
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I don't agree with this.
Roughly 90% of owners clean up their dog's poo. Requiring the vast majority to pay for the actions of a minority will a) not incentivise the minority to change behaviour and b) punish people that are doing the right thing (e.g. why should I keep being tidy when I'm paying to be untidy).
You'd get much the same effect putting the whole poo pickup tax onto general rates - lots of innocent people paying for the actions of the minority.
I initially thought the idea of using DNA was crazy
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Even with a big fine the cost of running a program like that would exceed a "poo pickup tax" easily. You've got the cost of the DNA test, someone to pick up the poo anyway for testing, mailing costs, fine collection, administration, etc. Doing it that way, everyone - including those without dogs, end up paying the very hefty price tag. Doing it as a yearly dog tag tax means you're targeting dog owners, you're eliminating all the costs of the DNA program except the employee picking up the poo, and the min
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You'd need something more detailed than parental testing and that's probably the cheapest part of such a program.
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Or if you aren't responsible enough to pick up after your dog then you can't have a dog anymore. It wouldn't be for one or two offenses but for an ongoing problem. There's an owner in my neighbourhood that regularly lets their dog go on the sidewalk. And from the evidence remaining it is a very large dog. This has been going on for over a year now. I don't think this person is responsible enough to own a dog. It's not a matter of going out once or twice and forgetting to bring a bag. They are just le
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I doubt they could find enough people to hire. Do you know how much shit a dog can produce?
Watch "Pitbulls & Parolees" or "Dirty Jobs". There's not much people won't do for a paycheque.
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"There's not much people won't do for a paycheque."
So you also reject the theory that immigrants to the US are necessary to do the jobs citizens will not...
Or they will if it gets them out of their cell or on TV.
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Citizens will do the jobs, merely that they may not do them as cheaply/be willing to take the abuse that immigrants do.
DNA testing of waste? (Score:1, Flamebait)
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Re:DNA testing of waste? (Score:5, Insightful)
The vast majority of cats bury their waste in unseen areas. The vast majority of dogs shit right on the fucking pathway.
In either case the noses that should be rubbed into it is the owner's.
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The vast majority of cats bury their waste in unseen areas. The vast majority of dogs shit right on the fucking pathway.
Of course dogs do that. Do you know how pokey grass is?
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Of course dogs do that. Do you know how pokey grass is?
That's what it's all about.
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Hold your BM in
Push your BM out
Hold your BM in and shake it all about
Feel the grass is pokey and find smoother ground
Re:DNA testing of waste? (Score:5, Informative)
Sure they do, like in playground sandboxes where small children can be infected by toxoplasmosis. People in big cities who let their cats outside deserve to be taxed too.
Re: DNA testing of waste? (Score:2)
Unfortunately the cats where we live bury it in the kids sandpit. Thanks.
And, yes, the cat owning residents have been advised, and, no, nothing has happened.
Re: DNA testing of waste? (Score:5, Informative)
Foreign animal in your yard? Don't you have the right to "restrain" said animal, and call the local authority to retrieve it?
When your neighbours have to start paying $X every time they let their animals stray, they'll soon do something about it.
I had to restrain a neighbour's dog once for hassling my free-range hens. I didn't mistreat it, merely grabbed it by the collar, walked it to the neighbour's place, and advised the neighbour of my rights regarding animals on my property - said rights including shooting her dog if it was hassling, attacking, or even playfully chasing my chickens. She wasn't aware of the rules concerning domestic and farm animals in rural areas, and, to her credit, apologised and promised to never let it happen again. And it didn't.
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Sorry: should have clarified: the sandpit in question is in the shared area of the apartment block gardens so we can not stop the cats being there, but would like to stop them leaving anything behind !
(We have an ultrasonic/movement detector type device covering our small, private area, and that seems to mostly work !)
Also sounds like you have a good neighbour there !
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We prevented that problem from the start by putting a lid on the sandbox.
Yes, I know, we shouldn't have to do that. Cat owners shouldn't let their cats do that in our yard. How do you solve that though? Surveil your yard and then follow and identify any cat that ever comes by? Then go argue with each of those cat's owners? What do you do about stray cats? Catch them all yourself?
It's far more practical to just put a lid on it and be done.
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in my neighbourhood, those "unseen areas" tend to be my garden, where i grow my food. i keep my cats leashed when they're outside and i wish everyone else would have the same courtesy. there was a woman on the news earlier this summer complaining that whenever she let her cat out it came home with a patch of fur shaved off. she couldn't seem to wrap her head around the idea that this would stop happening if she stopped letting her cat roam free around town.
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That's funny. Poor cat though.
I never understood why people let their cats roam about. What's the point of having a cat if you kick it out of the house all day? I've had a number of cats in my life and they have never been outside (except in a carrier to go to the vet). They have been perfectly happy being indoors and a lot safer too.
Cost (Score:1)
Above is the poo pickup cost which punishes all owners - but seriously - you pay the cop to forensically get poo. then pay the lab to DNA type the poo, then Search for poo matches.
Is that cheaper than just paying a few people to walk around and pick up garbage, clean up bird shit, scrape gum, and get rid of dog poo?
Re:Cost (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Cost (Score:5, Insightful)
There's still going to be homeless people with dogs in SF, so you've still got to clean it up. The DNA fines may make the job more manageable though.
Also, what about people who own horses? I see horse manure on the streets not infrequently, and it's a lot worse than dog.
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If you are living in a very rural town, maybe (in which case, the town should deal with it, but it's SO far from a global problem - either a totally isolated issue or, in the Bay Area, likely an utter 1% first world problem). If you are saying horse manure is a problem in SF, well, I call horseshit on that...
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Get the large box. If it fits, it ships.
I said SHIPS!
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I think paper bags are probably the best delivery container. Set it on fire to make sure they see it, wouldn't want them to accidentally step in it :-)
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"humanly" euthanize? So, like kill it in the most twisted, brutal, bizarre way possible?
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Do you live in a cage?
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If you think people can't smell horse shit, ... Well, I dunno what that means, but you're wrong.
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Re:Cost (Score:4, Informative)
Horse shit smells for a few hours, then it becomes a relatively benign damp wad of grass which is useful as compost. Dog shit smells for days, and it's omnivore poop, which is hazardous. You can catch horse shit as it falls out of a horse, then direct-apply it to your garden, and not only will it be good for your plants, but you are staggeringly unlikely to suffer any ill effects if you simply wash your hands. The parasites which dogs have are far more likely to infect you and also far more dangerous to you than those carried by horses. Anyone who thinks that horse shit is as bad as dog shit is severely unfamiliar with one or both.
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No, it's not more benign, it's bad too - especially for people that are allergic when that refuse is spread by vehicles driving over the dung piles.
Time for you to learn English, so you can known what the phrase "more benign" means. What do you think happens to dog poop when it gets run over? You want to breathe that? mmmmm, parasites!
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Don't be so afraid of dogs. Dogs have lived with, worked and cared for humans for thousands of years and the rewards to humans have more than exceeded the drawbacks (like occasionally stepping in some poop).
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Don't be so afraid of dogs. Dogs have lived with, worked and cared for humans for thousands of years and the rewards to humans have more than exceeded the drawbacks (like occasionally stepping in some poop).
You're comparing the benefits to the owner and the drawbacks for everyone else. A stranger's dog in no way benefits me.
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Often it's the dog's own family, but sometimes it's someone who just happened to need help and was lucky enough that their distress was noticed by a dog.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/georgia-bradley-dog-pepper_55d75fd3e4b04ae49703166e [huffingtonpost.com]
http://theweek.com/articles/466829/7-inspiring-stories-stray-dogs-saving-perfect-strangers [theweek.com]
http://www.dogguide.net/25-hero-dogs.php [dogguide.net]
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I don't think I've ever seen dog shit in the actual street.
Guess you don't get out much.
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It's training people not to let their dogs shit everywhere.
Why not give them treats for good behavior and also have them spayed and neutered?
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It's a hell of a lot cheaper to the government if they then fine the owner $500 to pay for it all. Plus, it creates another half dozen city jobs!
Not exactly related, but I'm already thinking about the TV show pitches related to this... "CSI: Dogshit".
Rub it in there good. (Score:2, Funny)
I say when they are caught, we rub the OWNER'S face in it. Sure, it won't solve the problem, but, my god, it would be satisfying to see.
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Because it won't be fresh by that time.
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I love this kind of faulty "I do know wrong, its the other guy" logic.
How is it faulty? I pick up my dogs poop. I have also stepped in poop that other people have left.
does that give me the right to rub your face in all the oil your car leaks on the pavement
When my car leaks fluids, I have it repaired, so yeah, I'd probably enjoy watching that too.
In fact, I think many problems in this world could be solved by rubbing peoples faces in the mess they leave for others to deal with.
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You mean like children? Pedophile!
Rubbing your face in a child is not necessarily inappropriate... haven't you ever heard of a tummy raspberry? Just make sure it's your child (etc.)
Motorized poo videos? (Score:2)
I can't quite grok what form this might take, but whatever it might be, it surely needs to be a Kickstarter campaign.
Also for people? (Score:2)
As there are already a few tens of cases of dogs who eat junk poo, and suffer from the traces of the drugs...
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Your plan is to locate and fine the homeless based on DNA? Somehow I do not see that working well. Maybe long jail terms would work, but that removes the lack of a financial burden the fine is supposed to ensure.
The most effective way cities deal with that problem is to harass the homeless enough that they leave for a more favorable area, frequently by police beatings or turning a blind eye to crime against them.
Get some panhandling and vagrancy laws passed if you want to solve it, then make sure they are
I hate dogs (Score:1)
I hate how people let them shit on grass meant for adults and children to walk/sit/play on (public green areas). Yeah, ok, you scoop it up and that totally removes it from the grass...
Get a real pet who knows how to shit in nice places, like a cat.
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I worked Graveyard for a decade or so once, and a Neighbor moved in, with his Dog. Said Neighbor let his Dog loose during the day.
:-)
Bark, bark, bark, poop, poop, poop. The Dog, that is. Cats started to disappear. I finally got fed up; talking to the Neighbor was like talking to his dog. One late night, just before going to work, I used the Fireplace shovel to fling the latest deposit against his Garage Door. Note that I did not cross Property Boundaries; I'm pretty good at flinging Shit from the street. This went on for a week or so. The Door began to become encrusted. Neither the Dog nor Dog Owner gave a Shit. And then I called the Landlord, as Anonymous Coward: "You know that Rental that you have on Lake Street? Why is the Garage Door always covered with Dog Feces?" Dog and Dog Owner moved out. It turns out that Dog Shit is hell on paint; the Garage Door had to be re-painted.
I think that it was Farley Mowat that pointed out that Wild Dogs and Wolves bury their Scat, and the habit of pooping anywhere and everywhere was a habit picked up from their new Human Masters.
In days of old, when Knights were bold And Toilets weren't invented They laid their Load beside the road And walked away contented.
God, I had hoped for a much better story after reading the first sentence :-)
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Some bad dog owners don't pick after their pets. Not a single cat owner picks up after theirs.
Many cat owners are responsible "parents" and don't let their cat roam outside of their house. Those cat owners most assuredly pick up after their cats.
Shit happens (Score:4, Informative)
Shit happens, deal with it.
Cause if you don't, we'll use DNA analysis to find and fine you.
Hope that includes dumped dog poo bags (Score:3)
I have a long grass verge by the side of the road and several dog owners have taken to dumping their dog poo bags on it, which is bewildering. Why make the effort to collect the dog poo in a small black plastic bag, only to illegally litter it right afterwards? It's an on-the-spot 80 pounds = $120 fine where I live, but unless I install CCTV and review the footage (and even then identifying them might be impossible), they're never going to get caught by the local council.
Some scoundrel even *saved* 10 of their poo bags and then dumped them at various intervals along my verge. And, no, I'm not enemies with anyone local before anyone asks...
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I have a long grass verge by the side of the road and several dog owners have taken to dumping their dog poo bags on it, which is bewildering. Why make the effort to collect the dog poo in a small black plastic bag, only to illegally litter it right afterwards? It's an on-the-spot 80 pounds = $120 fine where I live, but unless I install CCTV and review the footage (and even then identifying them might be impossible), they're never going to get caught by the local council.
Some scoundrel even *saved* 10 of their poo bags and then dumped them at various intervals along my verge. And, no, I'm not enemies with anyone local before anyone asks...
They leave it there indefinitely? I walk my dog on a route that only has trash bins at the beginning of the route. Since I walk back the same way I came, sometimes I'll pick up the poo and leave it out of the way so I don't have to carry it for another 3 miles. I put in a GPS reminder on my phone to grab it on the way back. Depending on how fast we walk, it may sit there for a solid 30 minutes before I pick it up. But like I said, I try to put it in an inconspicuous and out of the way location.
chronic condition on backcountry trails (Score:2)
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Carrying around a bag of shit until you happen upon a garbage can is a little...demeaning I guess?
Think of how the poor dog feels, it has to keep you company all the time. Talk about demeaning.
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Actually, if you live in an urban area, carrying around a bag of dog poo can can be a fairly effective way of repelling crackheads, junkies, bums, spangers, petition takers, random crazies, and other assorted riff-raff now that pretty much everyone wears headphones and those are no longer an effective repellant.
Of course, you have to be walking a dog while carrying said bag of poo. Otherwise you become one of the random crazies yourself.
There is a pattern (Score:3)
I find people who leave the poo happens more when there is no garbage cans nearby. People are lazy and don't want to be carrying it. Here there is one stretch where you don't see a garbage for over a mile along a major road. Needless to say you will see at least 3 or 4 landmines along the way.
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Mailing it back is awesome, but DNA tests = $$$ (Score:2)
I suppose that if a municipality has the money, lab time, and desire to do it then they're welcome to do so, but given the testing backlog US cities face I have serious doubts that the results coul
Extra? (Score:2)
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Normal street cleaning basically involves sweeping up litter, leaves & dust with a brush (or using a mechanical equivalent of the same). If you do that with shit, you just spread (or throw) it around and you have a shitty brush afterwards.
Better hope that's not the type of job you get when you grow up. Because you won't be very fucking good at it.
Framing (Score:2)
Nice start (Score:3)
The only time i'm ever tempted by the idea of mass surveillance is when i think of the possibility of wreaking a little legal vengeance on all those people who fuck up public spaces for the rest of us because they're too lazy or sociopathic to bother handling their waste properly.
Here's a cheaper way of dealing with shity owners (Score:2)
If an owner does not have a poop bag while walking their dog, offer them to buy a bag at $5 or a $50 fine.
A dog owner without a poop bag (Empty or full) is one that will not pick up.
Disclosure: I have many dogs and I carry # of dogs +1 poop bags on walks. I NEVER run out of bags.
Pick up my poop! (Score:2)
Owning a pet is a privilege not a right (Score:2)
Owning a pet is a privilege not a right, one that you are free to exercise as long as you don't harm/impact your fellow citizens. And we don't like stepping in nor picking up your poop.
1. Increase the pet license fee to help defray the cost of "waste removal" from public property. Yes this puts more burden on the respectable pet owners, but they can help themselves by self-policing the bad pet owners in their community. Stop being polite and ignoring bad behavior when you see it - chew the offenders out.
2.
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bags are cheap, and there are MANY biodegradable dog bags available (ex: http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/... [amazon.com] )
Quit being an ass and pick up after your dog!
My apartment complex has many stations that are always fully stocked with bags: BUT I actually carry and use my own because it's more convenient than using the stations.
Because of the stations it is VERY rare for there to be poop lying around... even though there are TONS of dogs here.