Idaho Law Against Recording Abuses On Factory Farms Ruled Unconstitutional 363
onproton writes: An Idaho law that made it illegal to record and document animal abuse or dangerous hygienic practices in agricultural facilities, often referred to as an 'ag-gag' law, was ruled unconstitutional by a federal judge on Monday. The judge concluded that the law restricted constitutionally protected free speech, and contradicted "long-established defamation and whistleblowing statutes by punishing employees for publishing true and accurate recordings on matters of public concern." Idaho is just one of several states to pass this type of law, which allow food production facilities to censor some unfavorable forms of speech at their convenience. Under the Idaho statute, an employee that witnessed and recorded an incident, even if it depicted true and life-threatening health or safety violations, could be faced with a year in jail and fines of up to "twice the economic loss the owner suffers." In his ruling (PDF), the judge stated that this was "precisely the type of speech the First Amendment was designed to protect." This decision has raised questions about the constitutionality of these types of laws in other states as well, and it's likely that there will be more legal battles ahead.
Wow! (Score:2)
How?! (Score:5, Insightful)
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Yes, what a waste of time and money first getting this law passed and then to strike it down.
There ought to be a penalty for a legislature that passes a law that is later struck down. That would put an end this kind of bullshit waste.
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Let penalize the voters for electing corrupt legislators... I mean, if we want to take it to its logical limit. But we have to admit, the voters are responsible, especially when these people are reelected.
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How were these clearly bogus laws voted in, in the first place?
The clue is in the first word of the headline.
Re:How?! (Score:5, Insightful)
My guess is that the argument went something like this:
The public doesn't understand livestock farming beyond what is shown in Little Golden Books read to preschoolers, ie farmer Brown with a handful of free-range, pet-like animals who can recite their ABCs. Animal rights activists will use carefully edited imagery showing normal agricultural practices structured in a way that will shock the public and cause harm to farmers generally and possibly individual farmers specifically.
I think there's no question the law is bad and seems designed to shield the worst big-ag factory farming practices. But it probably got buy-in from farmers, people who have been on working farms and likely even hunters because they have some understanding of the difference between livestock raised and killed for food and pets.
There's probably also a general animosity in a rural state to the entire line of reasoning promoted by PETA and other similar groups who are seen as promoting radical ideas.
I can't defend the law, but I can sort of understand the mindset that went into it. Animal rights groups kind of do to animal agriculture what the anti-abortion people recently did to Planned Parenthood -- carefully edited videos designed to show their opponent in the worst possible light to people who have no idea what normal day-to-day activity is in a place they don't have any experience with.
I'd wager a side of free-range, organic beef that if Planned Parenthood could get a law passed against hidden camera exposes in their clinics they would do it because they know that their opponents aren't using such footage to provide a balanced, fair and informative documentary, they're doing it to create shocking propaganda to promote their political position.
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Planned Parenthood could get a law passed against hidden camera exposes in their clinics
they already have laws like this for patient confidentiality
maybe you'd like to broadcast a video of your prostate exam
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Let me first be clear that I absolutely agree such laws are terrible and should be struck down. However...
How were these clearly bogus laws voted in, in the first place? It seems pretty obvious that documenting health/safety violations would be protected from legal retaliation, much like how truth is an absolute defense against libel charges.
You actually answered your own question at the end there, because what you said is NOT strictly the case. Contrary to popular belief, truth is NOT always an absolute defense against libel charges. The legal standard is generally actual malice [wikipedia.org], which means that the standard includes "reckless disregard" of whether something is true or false, not just actual truth or falsehood.
What this also means is
Re:How?! (Score:4, Insightful)
Idahoan here, and I have friends in the legislature, and I know the guy whose operation was filmed. In this case, no bribes were given because they weren't needed. Most of the legislators in this state are in ag themselves, they were scared shitless that environmental vigilantes would come after them next. All in all, this is an example of "knee-jerk legislation" -- the "we have to do something!" mentality, which is how you get bad laws.
Way to defend animal torture. (Score:4, Insightful)
> There is a substantial difference between someone breaking and entering your property and filming, vs. committing fraud by accepting employment, and potential other crimes in the process, when compared to a legally designated government inspector from the Department of Health or Department of Agriculture.
Because 1) government is corrupt. In Idaho, the gov are a bunch ag people themselves. 2) when the government is watching, you know they are watching you, and you modify your behavior. What matters is what happens when the government is not watching.
> These were not long time employees suddenly incensed by recent activity, and they were not long time employees who suddenly got the anti-factory-farm religion because they happened to start dating a vegetarian.
1) So what? 2) Of course the long-time employees would be okay with it, otherwise they would not be long time employees. The torturers were stung by an undercover whistle blower, what is wrong with that?
> The laws happened because there is an ongoing problem of these activists illegally entering the property -- technically breaking and entering, criminal trespass, and a large set of other chargeable crimes, and the police were getting sick and tired of responding to those acts, so they strengthened the penalties. When it became to costly, in terms of risk vs. reward to use those tactics any more, then the activists resorted to fraud. The specific law which was declared unconstitutional in Idaho was enact to strengthen the penalties against this fraud. In other words, it's an escalation of tactics.
"Resorted to fraud" - just listen to you. These concerned individuals wanted to document what actually happens. How else can you do it? How else do you stop the torture?
> This judges decision will likely be thrown out on appeal on the basis of contravening the "shouting 'Fire!' in a crowded theatre" theory of limitations on first amendment rights, since what they were filming on the farm generally has no bearing on actual food safety, according to the Ag. Inspectors, and was intended to be alarmist and result in a negative backlash, rather than an increase in food safety. These people are in fact anti-meat activists.
It is not about food safety, so much, as cruelty to animals. And these factory farmers are horrifically cruel to animals.
> Like the "shouting 'Fire!' in a crowded theatre" theory, you are in fact free to say what you want; however, what you say may also have social, civil, or even criminal consequences which you don't like and don't want. But that's what happens to people who acto out sociopathic tendencies for what they see as justifiable ends: ostracism, lawsuits, or (ultimately) criminal charges.
How else do you stop these animal torturers?
BTW: it's okay to "shout 'Fire!' in a crowded theater" if the theater is on fire.
Good! (Score:5, Insightful)
I spend a lot of time on
Re:Good! (Score:5, Funny)
"WHY castration of males is better for the animals and the humans who work with them"
Damn... I didn't realize work in that industry was so hard. You guys have my sympathy.
Re: Good! (Score:2)
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I think it comes down to this: don't anthropomorphize animals, they don't like it.
I saw a video of a trainer "harassing" a horse. Once he was done, the horse had found its place and its purpose. What looked like bullying was in fact healing.
Re: Good! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: Good! (Score:4, Funny)
"Yes, boats when housed together will rape each other"
So that's how we get dinghies.
Free Speech > Profit (Score:4, Insightful)
Just goes to show that as much as big companies and wealthy individuals would like to change that—and have been trying very hard over the past few decades to do so—profit is still not, in fact, more important than free speech. Or the Constitution, or people's lives.
Let's just hope we do see more cases like this. Laws like that are a terrible perversion of the American legislative system.
Dan Aris
I feel like I'm in a bad Max Headroom episode (Score:5, Insightful)
I woke up today to hear on the news how Germany has effectively outlawed Keynesian economics in those countries that were suckered into the Euro currency union (the Right in the UK were absolutely right to avoid joining the monetary union. It's a shame they get so much else wrong).
On the elevator I saw a news blurb on how Hedge funds are demanding that Puerto Rico close their schools [cnn.com] to pay back debts (rather than take a haircut on their risky investments that earned them well over market interest rates for years. Hint: you get that interest rate because your return is risky, not guaranteed).
And of course there's the endless snowden leaks that make Security Systems look benign, and the ridiculously skewed anti-abortion propaganda that may bring down one of the most important institutions for women's health, and so on and so on.
It really does feel like the world of Channel 23, and wondering how soon they will ban the off switch (rhetorical shots across the bow are already being made, with talk of ad blockers "violating copyright". How soon until turning off your TV is the same?)
Finally, after years of giving corporations and the rich unfettered leeway to buy elections, exploit the poor and middle class (and now, more and more, the upper-middle class), we get a judicial ruling in favor of people over corporations. Of course, our downward death spiral will no doubt resume shortly, but in the meantime it is a breath of fresh air to see sanity in our courts for once.
The rest of the story ... (Score:2)
Thank God (Score:3)
Re:Good news, and all... (Score:5, Insightful)
Nerds like me eat food too, and I think it is important that abuse of animals is not kept secret. The ag industry should either fix their problems, or be subjected to more regulation and oversight.
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Yes there is they are tasty and I am an omnivore they are food.
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Yes there is they are tasty and I am an omnivore they are food.
"Enjoy human rinds, muncha buncha cruncha human"
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Still need cheese for the macaroni and cheese.
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I'm not a cow and neither are you.
It's still easier for me to eat meat or cheese than any plant product. That's not even getting into people that might not even be able to eat one particular thing or another.
Full throttle omnivorism is the only sensible approach.
Anything else and you are likely to miss something or fail to "complement" something properly.
I'm not a dirt poor 3rd world person. I don't have to punish myself and pretend I wasn't born in the 1st world.
Besides, my own dietary requirements right n
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It's still easier for me to eat meat or cheese than any plant product..
Besides, my own dietary requirements right now likely could not be sustained without animal products. Although I am certainly a corner case.
Planned Parenthood should be donating to you, I think it would be a good match.
Re:Good news, and all... (Score:5, Insightful)
You might find that you're more of a cow than you think. Or rather, if you were to see some of the videos, you might find that your empathy towards them is closer to human and further from "other" than you might expect.
That doesn't mean you have to stop being an omnivore. Meat and animal products are good food. But you can demand that the animals you consume be treated humanely, while they live and as they die. You do indeed live in the first world, which means you have enough money to pay them to use processes that take at least some care for the animals, rather than treating them as inanimate objects that can't feel pain.
It's very unfortunate that the loudest advocates for the rights of animals make fools of themselves in the process. They're fools, and you're right to ignore them. But that doesn't mean that there aren't real abuses going on in factory farming, and you're in a position to demand that they stop the abuses. Pretending they don't exist is just as foolish. And you can tell yourself that these are purely inanimate objects whose pain doesn't matter to you, but I suspect you'd feel otherwise if you went and looked.
(Or maybe not. There are people who don't. But people who don't empathize with animal suffering often don't empathize with human suffering, either, and that's widely considered a moral failing. Which means I wouldn't be able to convince you of that, either. But for anybody reading this, I think it's worth considering the notion that they should look at the videos and see if they would rather have it be different.)
Stuff that matters (Score:2)
but how is this news for nerds?
It's "News for Nerds. Stuff that Matters". You've got a low enough user ID you should know that. This falls under the stuff that matters though I'm pretty sure nerds care about free speech too. Plus more than a few of us actually care about animal abuse.
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This falls under the stuff that matters
That's such a broad enough charter as to make any sort of nerd filter meaningless.
though I'm pretty sure nerds care about free speech too.
Then every free speech case in the country is going to be posted on /.?
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That's such a broad enough charter as to make any sort of nerd filter meaningless.
There have always been stories on slashdot for stuff that doesn't involve science and microchips. You should know that by now. Very little of the Snowden stuff really is about technology. It's about government overreach, free speech, violation of constitutional rights, etc. The fact that it happened on a computer is almost incidental.
Then every free speech case in the country is going to be posted on /.?
Have you seen every free speech case posted on slashdot? Seriously, let it go my friend. It's an important topic worthy of discussion. If no one cares then it will get i
Re:Good news, and all... (Score:5, Insightful)
but how is this news for nerds?
It involves technology & free speech. How isn't it news for nerds?
and just in time (Score:2)
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It isn't; slashdot has become a general news aggregator featuring anything that might generate page clicks.
The "News for Nerds" tagline is a relic from the days when slashdot was relevant.
Re:Good news, and all... (Score:5, Insightful)
Your rights online.
Many of us give a damn when governments pass terrible laws which don't pass Constitutional muster, because increasingly governments don't care if the laws they pass are actually legal. They just feel they can pass any old law and that should stand.
Feel free to exclude YRO from your preferences, or stick to reading the video games section.
The rest of us care if our governments act like fascists who think they can pass any law they want to.
This is stuff which matters.
They didn't outlaw the animal cruelty, they outlawed telling people about it.
You should always care when a government passes a law which arbitrarily places limits on free speech. Or the next thing you know they'll make it illegal to criticize idiot governments who pass laws which place arbitrary limits on free speech.
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Re:Good news, and all... (Score:5, Insightful)
I also think that this story reflects the fact that a significant minority of people out there get way more outraged by cruelty to animals that cruelty to humans. I find this attitude quite sickening.
In our world, cruelty to animals is applied on a scale that completely dwarfs cruelty to people. So even if you think the suffering of a cow or pig matters 1/10th the suffering of a person, the total amount of suffering among farm animals is still daunting and horrible.
That said, cruelty to anyone is bad and it's reasonable to be upset about any and all of it. I hate the way farm animals are treated, and I also hate it when police harass/abuse/execute innocent people. I won't fault anyone for focusing their outrage a different way than I do.
Re:Cool (Score:5, Informative)
Except, it doesn't apply. This case is about videos that are shown to be about factual events that are displayed in a truthful format that are both covered under the 1st amendment and would likely also be protected under whistleblower laws. The "abortion tissue" videos aren't covered under either. The 1st amendment does not protect you in cases of libel, slander or creating a public danger and whistleblower laws do not cover non-employees in most cases. The supposed Planned Parenthood videos were blocked by a court of law as they were found to be, at best, a carefully edited mischaracterization of a meeting where what was likely a completely legal conversation was warped into an apparent conversation about an illegal act or, at worst, a complete fabrication created by paid actors to switfboat Planned Parenthood during an election year. Either apparent version of events would put the video clearly in the category of libel and therefore, not protected speech by law. Though we do not know all the facts in the case yet, the judge found enough evidence that the video was libelous to put an injunction against further release until it can be investigated fully.
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Why not let people see them and decide?
how about we make secret videos of your personal activities, show them to the world and let other people decide whether they are appropriate or not, without asking you.
Re:Cool (Score:5, Insightful)
They didn't film people having sex, they filmed people abusing animals and creating unhealthy environments in which to be growing food for human consumption.
Arguably there is a much more clearly defined public interest as opposed to if you like to wear your wife's underwear as part of your thing in your "personal activities".
This is about blocking employees from filming stuff which happens in their place of work ... it's not so much about "personal activities" as it is about suppressing constitutionally protected speech.
This is not the same as someone releasing your damned sex tape.
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They didn't film people having sex, they filmed people abusing animals
why don't you bother to read what I was responding to
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why don't you bother to read what I was responding to
Probably because I got down-modded below their threshold. But I'll respond to your reply. The videos were made of a business meeting at a public place. There is no expectation of privacy. Asking me how I feel about having my private activities videotaped does nothing to counter that argument.
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The videos were made of a business meeting at a public place. There is no expectation of privacy.
You are wrong, in California the permission of all parties is required before recording audio. There is no exception for being in a public place.
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Does that apply to sporting events as well? It must make televising them a lot more difficult.
read the back of your fucking ticket
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Prick.
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then you're not going to the game and it doesn't apply to you
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What you were responding to was irrelevant when you made the spurious claim about your "personal activities". Because they're not legally the same thing.
These were videos filmed by employees and disclosed in the public interest, not "personal activities", and not covered under the same legal protections.
This is about the legally protected rights of employees to document true things and disclose
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Comparing the filming of private activities of a person to that of a recipient of public funds, or an organization responsible for public health, is extremely disingenuous.
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Comparing the filming of private activities of a person to that of a recipient of public funds,
if you are itemizing deductions on your tax return, then you are a recipient of public funds
if you buy subsidized dairy products in the grocery store, you are the recipient of public funds
every citizen is a recipient of public funds
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I was just about to comment with the same kind of thing. The edited videos came out along with the unedited videos.
Some have argued that the taped discussions that were conducted in California were done in a public setting (restaurant) and there isn't an expectation for privacy in those cases. There is case law that both agrees and disagrees with this.
It has also been said that the judge is pretty political. Judge William H. Orrick III is an Obama appointee and a major bundler and donor for Obama’s pr
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Some have argued that the taped discussions that were conducted in California were done in a public setting (restaurant) and there isn't an expectation for privacy in those cases.
California is a "two-party consent" state for recording audio, all parties involved must be aware of the recording in order for it to be legal.
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So should we expect & applaud a constitutional challenge to the "two-party consent" laws on the apprx.-same basis as done for the Idaho videos?
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So should we expect & applaud a constitutional challenge to the "two-party consent" laws on the apprx.-same basis as done for the Idaho videos?
you can get back to us when you find animals that are capable of giving consent
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The analogy would be consent of the property owner.
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sure, but animals don't speak and thus they are not communicating anything
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And fetuses/babies can't speak either. That is who the people fighting this fighting are trying to defend. J
guess what, the mother speaks for her unborn children.
Re:Cool (Score:4, Informative)
Last week, Massachusetts’ Attorney General Maura Healey became the latest in what’s sure to be a long list of state attorneys general to conclude the same thing. Specifically, Healy concluded,
“Over the past week, my office has conducted a thorough review and found that Planned Parenthood League of Massachusetts’ health care centers are fully compliant with state and federal laws regarding the disposition of fetal tissue. Although donation of fetal tissue is permissible under state and federal law, PPLM does not have a tissue donation program. There is no evidence that PPLM is involved in any way in the buying or selling of tissue. As such, our review is complete.”
Sure, Massachusetts is a leftward-leaning state, but Indiana is very much not. Back on July 16, Gov. Mike Pence, R-Ind., launched an investigation of Planned Parenthood following the release of what was obviously a doctored and misleading video. The probe focused on facilities in Indianapolis, Bloomington and Merrillville, and this past week the Indiana Department of Health reported it was “unable to find any non-compliance with state regulations. Therefore, no deficiencies were cited.”
Re:Cool (Score:5, Funny)
The gestation of a fetus is a non-delegable act [...]
And this is ultimately the issue. Which is why we need to rapidly advance medical technology, to the point where the men on the religious right who want to "save" the fetus can do so, by carrying it to term themselves.
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Sounds like the folks that recorded the videos are the conservative version of Edward Snowden.
How does it feel to be on the other side?
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Sounds like the folks that recorded the videos are the conservative version of Edward Snowden.
How does it feel to be on the other side?
In our latest controversy, hair salons are now under attack because they are disposing of human remains in the dumpster.
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You can drop the name calling, it doesn't add anything.
This is all about the release of information against the interests of a controversial organization. That's what Snowden did. That's what these groups are doing. Yes, it's a different organization. Whether you feel the releases were edited or not, we have no way of knowing if what Snowden released was doctored either.
What you callously refer to as dead tissue is nothing of the sort. You might be fine with categorizing it that way, but that does not
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And the animal rights activists posed as employees to get their video. Uncovering illegal/unethical behavior should be encouraged.
they didn't "pose" as employees, they were employees.
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for the sole purpose to make these videos.
Are you saying they didn't bother to pick up their paychecks?
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don't give me any credit, you put your own foot in your own mouth
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Hmm... supposedly unedited portions of a highly politically motivated video. You can see why we would consider them suspect. Even unedited, carefully selected sections of video, taken out of context, can convey a very different message than one in context. Now, if there were to release the unedited copy of the entire video than you statement of allow the public to decide might be valid, though the video itself would still remain illegal.
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Wow, I'm tired...
Hmm... supposedly unedited portions of a highly politically motivated video. You can see why we would consider them suspect. Even unedited, carefully selected sections of video, taken out of context, can convey a very different message than one in context. Now, if they were to release the unedited copy of the entire video than your statement of allow the public to decide might be valid, though the video itself would still remain illegal.
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Please point us to the law that was passed to make recording conversations with abortion providers illegal and then we can discuss whether that law is constitutional or not.
A judge's decision is not a law and can be appealed, so that's an entirely different conversation.
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Please point us to the law that was passed to make recording conversations with abortion providers illegal and then we can discuss whether that law is constitutional or not.
A judge's decision is not a law and can be appealed, so that's an entirely different conversation.
recording audio without the permission of all parties is illegal in many places
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Re:Cool (Score:4, Insightful)
It is different. If and it is a big IF you had the consent of the woman undergoing the procedure then it would probably be O.K. to make and distribute the video of the abortion.
In the absence of such consent it is highly unlikely to be permissible to invade the privacy of the woman. In addition there are issues around patient confidentiality for medical procedures. There is also a lack of a public interest waver around an abortion because it has no impact on you personally and is not in contravention of any laws.
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You haven't been watching the news the past week, have you?
This is about an anti group filming Planned Parenthood execs discussing what sounds like selling baby parts, and, at best is exceptionally crude behavior in discussing crushing apart bodies to get at certain parts, like an auto junk yard worker.
A court has upheld stopping the video release because they signed an NDA as part of being undercover.
It's been suggested if this was someone filming a Koch brother feeding money to a Republican candidate, no
Re:Cool (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Cool (Score:4, Informative)
No, they weren't haggling for a better price. They were saying what you'd have to pay for whatever quality or urgency of tissue you wanted.
Your post is trying to insinuate that they were haggling for a price of the tissue, but no, it's the transport.
It truly was a donation, and a flat rate would NOT offset their costs because the costs depend on what they're sending, to whom.
Just like postal service costs differently depending on whether it's first or second class, recorded, registered or not, and the size and weight of the parcel.
So, no. Your pseudo conspiracy proof is only proof you're talking bollocks.
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Clearly you are a moron with no experience with medical procedures, insurance, or medical billing.
You can't blow your nose in a medical facility without spending $30 - $100.
Either that or you're just s shameless partisan who doesn't actually care about facts and won't let them get in the way of a good crusade.
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My issue is that if they are indeed donating the tissue and only getting paid for their costs, then they should not be haggling over the price
I don't see anything wrong with haggling in a donation. A donation isn't defined by a lack of haggling, but not being a contract with consideration.
By consideration, I mean both parties offering something of value for exchange, with each regarded as being sufficient for the other.
If you're paying me for a pen, you could sue me if I take the money but not don't provide a pen, or I can sue you for taking a pen without giving me money.
Donations need not consideration. You could give me something that's worth w
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several things:
-it's the patient who is making the donation, not PP.
-nearly every medical facility that deals with maternity facilitates such donations, not just PP
-fetal tissue is instrumental in a lot of medical research, particularly treatments for diseases and conditions affecting babies and children
-also for vaccine development, including several we currently take for granted and receive just as a matter of course
-it was particularly useful in the development of the polio vaccine, which alone amounts t
Re: Cool (Score:2, Informative)
The issues with the Planned Parenthood videos are their surreptitious nature, recording somebody under false pretenses and then editing the content to advance anarrative.
This would be distinct from an employee recording actual events.
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What, you can't "record actual events" in such a way as to distort "actual events" beyond all recognition?
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> As I've heard absolutely ZERO people saying that the full length video says something totally different who has provided specific examples
Like I said. You're a partisan that won't let facts get in the way of your crusade.
FactCheck.org has a nice article on this where they reference a number of legitimate same collection companies and researchers.
The unedited remarks include phrases like "breaking even" and "not impacting care of patients".
Re: Cool (Score:3, Informative)
> Aside from the fact that it's funded by taxpayers.
No it isn't. Taxpayer funding for abortions has been disallowed for 20 years.
Re:Cool (Score:5, Informative)
There is also a lack of a public interest waver around an abortion because it has no impact on you personally and is not in contravention of any laws.
Aside from the fact that it's funded by taxpayers.
Planned Parenthood is barred from using taxpayer money to pay for abortions. All federal money that goes to Planned Parenthood is spent on women's health, such as STD screenings, or checkups.
Re:Cool (Score:5, Insightful)
Which means any funds that go to Planned Parenthood fund abortion, period.
??? So when I go to the grocery store and buy some canned beans, I am really funding abortions because they also have a drugstore ???
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so when you post comments on stories that mention abortion, you are supporting abortions, because you stimulate the posting of pro-abortion comments by others
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They have a set of accounting that PROVES (and the IRS and NIH BOTH agree that this is proven) that they don't use government money for abortions.
Your shitheaded insistence that "they get some money, and they mix it all up, so the actual dollar from the tax office can't be proven NOT to have been spent" is ridiculous: NO MONEY CHANGED HANDS. Only the balance.
Your scared hypthesis hasn't been the case for well over 100 years.
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Couldn't those closed Planned Parenthood clinics just stop providing abortion but continue to be open and provide women health services like cancer screening?
WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM with business providing services that are COMPLETELY LEGAL?
Re:Cool (Score:4, Informative)
Answer me this. If Planned parenthood is much more than abortion and gets most of its revenue from other places other than abortion, then why did several Planned Parenthood clinics close when Texas' new stricter abortion laws took into effect? Couldn't those closed Planned Parenthood clinics just stop providing abortion but continue to be open and provide women health services like cancer screening?
Probably for two reasons:
(1) The bombings
(2) A strong ethical and moral stance that services which are constitutionally legal, such as those involved in not forcing a woman to be an incubator for a rapists spawn, are not severable from other legally allowed medical services
I could guess at other reasons as well.
Re:Cool (Score:4, Informative)
1) what bombings?
http://prochoice.org/wp-conten... [prochoice.org]
I could not find any info about recent bombings in Texas that were the cause of Planned Parenthood clinics for closing. Why would anyone bomb a clinic if they closed because of the stricter Texas law?
Because the U.S. Supreme court blocked enforcement of the admitting privileges provisions of HB 2 on 29 Jun 2015, in a 5-4 vote, reversing the appeals court ruling, at least temporarily. Your inability to do research is is not an indicator of you being right.
2) Your 2nd answer doesn't answer my question. Why did the clinics close if they could not conduct abortions anymore due to the stricter Texas law?
Actually, it was the revocation of both the clinic licenses and the doctors licenses that resulted in the man (but not all) the clinics closure. Others were due to the bomb threats in the statistics noted above (the law passed in 2013).
The loss of the licenses was engineered by anti-choice advocates opposed to abotion, and was managed as an intimidation and threat campaign, and as a letter writing campaign to hospital boards in various areas.
This was done by tracking doctors and patients license plate numbers. Due to this pattern of intimidation, even the clinics that were able to maintain services found that they had no customers, and that women were traveling out of state to Kansas, Oklahoma, and sometimes as far as Missouri for medical treatment.
Except of course, poor women who could not afford the travel expenses. Mostly, they just had to stay pregnant, and have babies they couldn't afford to raise, with no recourse, and somewhat extensive medical expenses, which are normally associated with having babies.
Why couldn't they still stay open to provide the necessary women health services?
Because they lost their licenses to operate, and it's illegal to practice medicine without a license... even in Texas.
Re:Cool (Score:5, Insightful)
What, like war? Or tax cuts for the rich? Or the right to say god hates fags via charitable status and donations? Or the enforcement of copyright laws bought and paid for by industry? How about treaties which are also for the benefit of corporations instead of taxpayers?
Or is it only the stuff you object to you think is tyrannical you wish would stop?
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You're absolutely correct... and so is he (on the Jefferson quote, not at all on his anti-abortion hysteria).
It's not necessary for everybody to stand up for, or even agree on, every righteous cause. As long as each cause has its proponents, progress can be made. Advocating for one thing passionately is more likely to bring about change than diluting your effort over multiple issues that you are less passionate about.
I think his position is stupid and uninformed, but it's not hypocritical of him to push one
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To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.
So when do those War on Terror tax refunds start rolling in?
Re: Cool (Score:5, Insightful)
Really? How about "you shall not murder?"
Okay, I'll bite. What does "murder" mean? Is it "murder" when I cut my toenails? Is it "murder" when a woman refuses sex? Is it "murder" when a condom is used? Is it "murder" when a fertilized egg fails to attach to the uterine wall? Is it "murder" when a raped woman terminates her pregancy? Is it "murder" when a badly mutated fetus is terminated?
Is it "murder" when young children are denied food and shelter and education, they have no opportunity for the fine trappings of your privileged life, and they end up dead at 14 or 16 at the hands of the police?
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It's murder when a living human is torn apart for body parts. The rest of your diatribe is irrelevant.
Tell us more about these "living humans", they must have birth certificates, right?
Re: Cool (Score:4, Interesting)
Babies are born. In that respect, they are covered by the 14th Amendment.
Fetuses are not babies and never have been. Even born babies haven't always had completely human status. In many societies they aren't even named until it's shown that they will survive.
If anything, newborns are little more than external fetuses that are highly dependent and terribly fragile. They're nothing like any of their counterparts in the rest of the animal kingdom.
If it can't survive without the mothership then how can you really call it a separate legal entity?
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They're nothing like any of their counterparts in the rest of the animal kingdom.
people who failed basic high school biology think that their opinions on these matters are relevant
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I'd probably also dispute the "living" bit as that would imply independent life and abortions are not generally performed when the baby/foetus is breathing unassisted.
Also, "torn apart"? Where the hell do you live that allows medical procedures like that?
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Even if they were you would still need to establish legal language just like you would for the real law.
IOW, abortion is not legally murder. This is just something that a small religious fringe conflates together. Furthermore, that religious fringe didn't even hold such a belief until the Regan era.
Before that time, Catholics were pretty much alone in defining abortion as murder.
The 10 commandments aren't enough. You need the Talmud to go along with it. It's very much like the US Code in that respect.
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Sadly, the "Citizens United" case is a perfect example of our system not working as it should.