France Could Offer Asylum To Assange, Snowden 213
HughPickens.com writes: The Intercept reports that in the aftermath of the NSA's sweeping surveillance of three French presidents, French Justice Minister Christiane Taubira thinks National Security Agency whistleblower Edward Snowden and WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange might be allowed to settle in France. Taubira was asked about the NSA's surveillance of three French presidents, disclosed by WikiLeaks this week, and called it an "unspeakable practice." Taubira's comments echoed those in an editorial in France's leftist newspaper Libération that France should respond to the U.S.'s "contempt" for its allies by giving Edward Snowden asylum. France would send "a clear and useful message to Washington, by granting this bold whistleblower the asylum to which he is entitled," wrote editor Laurent Joffrin in an angry editorial titled "Un seul geste" — or "A single gesture." (google translate) If Paris offers Snowden asylum, it will be joining several other nations who have done so in the past, including Bolivia, Nicaragua and Venezuela. However, Snowden is still waiting in Moscow to hear from almost two dozen other countries where he has requested asylum.
Ob exile (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Ob exile (Score:5, Insightful)
St. Helena (Score:2)
It's the preferred location for exiling troublesome political figures with French ties.
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Corsica is the common source of troublesome political figures with French ties.
Exiling is best done using Elba Island or St. Helena.
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From TFA: (Score:5, Insightful)
So, basically, "not going to happen".
Re:From TFA: (Score:4, Interesting)
Also, how would Assange get there? The moment he steps out of the front door of the Ecuadorian embassy, he will be arrested.
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Jetpack?
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Jetpack?
Good luck crossing the British Channel with a jetpack while being tailed by the RAF... ;-)
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Good luck crossing the British Channel with a jetpack while being tailed by the RAF... ;-)
Bond hasn't done a Chunnel rocket sled ride yet?
Anyway, there are much simpler ways to smuggle somebody clandestinely. It would be irresponsible to enumerate the options here, but the logistics aren't impossibly hard, so Assange must feel he's better off conducting his mission where is is right now.
Re:From TFA: (Score:4, Insightful)
Anyway, there are much simpler ways to smuggle somebody clandestinely.
Not when the entire goddamn British military and intelligence community is carefully watching everything going into and out of that embassy. Wouldn't surprise me to find out that they secretly scan and/or trail every vehicle that leaves.
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it appears that the english don't know about the underground tunne&IU9#02w9(ert78!&0wa#g780q[wfe
NO CARRIER
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French Diplomatic vehicle enters the embassy, picks him up, takes him to the airport, straight to a private jet waiting (probably also a diplomatic mode of transport).
Not that hard really.
Re:From TFA: (Score:4, Insightful)
Except that the Ecuadorian embassy is on the second floor of a shared building, with no direct access to the garage or other internal locations. The only way in and out of the embassy is via a shared stairwell, which is not covered under diplomatic privilege and therefore anyone using said staircase is subject to normal laws of the host country.
So how is he to get from the embassy to the car without being arrested?
Re:From TFA: (Score:5, Funny)
Diplomatic ladder
Re:From TFA: (Score:5, Interesting)
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Re: With a diplomatic immunity,... of course (Score:3)
Next day "Jacques Clouseau" gets his French citizenship granted. One hour after that France announces couple of new diplomatic post opening in London. A day later "J
Would not f' with the Legion's esprit de corps (Score:2)
Re:From TFA: (Score:5, Funny)
There's already a tunnel to France. He only has to dig as far as Folkestone.
Re:From TFA: (Score:5, Insightful)
So, basically, "not going to happen".
Exactly. Also, Taubira (who used to be a person with integrity) completely caved-in when the absolute bastards running the how (President, Prime Minister, etc.) passed the most intrusive, anti-privacy, mass spying, "we will listen to everything you say and there is nothing yo ucan do about it" law France has ever seen.
She cannot be trusted, alas, and Snowden and Assange should consider all this hoopla about asylum as so much hot air from a discredited governement.
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I'm not sure either Snowden or Assange could live in France in safety anyway. France is subject to European Arrest Warrants. Snowden might be safe from those but if I were him I'd prefer a country like Iceland.
US/Euro warrants did not effect Polanski's stay (Score:4)
I'm not sure either Snowden or Assange could live in France in safety anyway. France is subject to European Arrest Warrants. Snowden might be safe from those but if I were him I'd prefer a country like Iceland.
France granted asylum to convicted fugitive child rapist Roman Polanski. The victim was 13 years old. After pleading guilty he fled to France before sentencing. No US and European arrest warrant interfered with his 30+ year stay in France.
Re: From TFA: (Score:2)
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Oh, but surely, Obama, our fearless defender of all that is good and just,
Lamest
O'Bama
Blaming
Ever!
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Oh, but surely, Obama, our fearless defender of all that is good and just, Constitutional scholar and gentleman, would never, ever resort to such methods!
True, but you never know who's coming into the White House in 2017. Could be a tea party nutzo.
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If his spare time project will ever be more than some example routines of peripherical functions and a completely overengineered interface full of place holder code and TBDL comments, then it will take 10 years to get some preliminary modules in production, and you will end up with two codebases
Re-write the IRS ... (Score:2)
Sort of like the IRS regulations.
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To know how to scale back a large government, you have to know first what the government is doing, how it is doing what it does and why it does what it does, at best from your own experience in thi
Obama does not lean towards capture ... (Score:2)
Oh, but surely, Obama, our fearless defender of all that is good and just, Constitutional scholar and gentleman, would never, ever resort to such methods!
Actually Obama does not lean towards capture and extraction, he leans towards assassination via drones. Capture and extract was the previous guy.
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This is related to the Uber riot, right? (Score:2)
Great, now how do they get there? (Score:3, Interesting)
The second Assange steps out of that embassy, he's going to be swarmed by cops and soldiers pretending this is all about some bullshit rape charge in Sweden. And the second Snowden leaves Russian airspace, he's in serious danger.
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First, he's arrested for skipping bail and (probably) serves time in a UK jail.
Only then does he get handed to anyone.
Yes, he'll be swarmed by cops. But it'll be a while before rape charges are seen as anything other than "next on the list".
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Why wasn't he sent to the US during the 2 years he was residing in the UK prior to scampering to the Ecuadorian embassy? Or even better, during the week or so that he was actually remanded into custody pending the extradition hearings during December 2010?
This aspect of the "all of this is just to get him to the US" claims is never explained.
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Re:Great, now how do they get there? (Score:5, Informative)
It's not about the rape charge, it's about the wikileaking.
And if you think nobody would/could force a plane to land over leaks, read up:
Evo Morales grounding incident [wikipedia.org]
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You do realize Assange and Snowden are two different people, right?
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You do realize Assange and Snowden are two different people, right?
But they are both wanted by the US for essentially the same thing.
They 'pantsed' the US intelligence services in public and exposed their criminal actions to the world and most importantly to the US population.
Like any organized crime cartel, they feel they must do their best to make these individuals pay a heavy price in order to keep their own people too scared to rat them out on their criminal activities.
Strat
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They had the balls to order the President of Bolivia's plane [wikipedia.org] down. You think they wouldn't ground some dipshit An-124 pilot?
contempt? never! (Score:2)
Oh, you poor dears! Of course, we the American people, hold French culture and the French people in the highest regard, you cute little cheese eating surrender monkeys!
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French cheese is actually pretty good. You should try it.
Also, remember who helped you in your war for independence? Yeah, it was the surrender monkeys. They also gave you the most recognizable symbol of the USA after the stars and stripes: The Statue of Liberty.
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If you knew a bit more about France, you'd recognize Joffrin's diatribe as the typical contempt the French (and European) intellectual left holds for the US; it doesn't matter what we do, we can never satisfy them. Historically, cheese and the Statue of Liberty is less important to me than the fact that the French killed a lot of my ancestors over religion. Despite all the talk of "liberty", the French have a decidedly violent and totalitarian streak, and Joffrin is very much part of that tradition. Contem
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Assange. (Score:3)
Fine.
A) He can't get to France without stepping out of the door.
B) We arrest him the second he does that.
C) He stands trial for skipping bail etc. (unfortunately, his life in the embassy is prima facie evidence of guilt in that case, no matter the mitigating circumstances).
D) He serves whatever sentence he gets for that (hard to imagine he doesn't get one).
E) Then we're required to honour any EU warrant that was issued.
F) Then he's either out of UK hands, or able to go to France freely anyway.
After that you can discuss whether or not asylum in France is justified - methinks that the political climate may have changed somewhat by then (in which direction, who knows)?
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Moreover, even if he did manage to slip into France, they would be just as bound as the UK is to hand him over to Sweden.
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Moreover, even if he did manage to slip into France, they would be just as bound as the UK is to hand him over to Sweden.
France has a long history of not handing over people who are wanted in other countries. Kind of a standing joke really.
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They'll give him the French Citizenship for extraordinary services rendered and presto they won't extradite him anywhere.
He'll get sentenced to 6 months 'jail time' in St. Tropez like the french secret service people, who killed a photographer when sinking the Greenpeace boat.
Then they'll make him a commander of the Legion of Honour and give him a lifetime pension.
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Incorrect.
Even the EMBASSY is not "foreign ground". It's UK soil. Go read up on your international law rather than believing what the movies tell you.
And a car most certainly isn't.
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citation please.
Re:Dribbling Nazi F*cktard (Score:4, Informative)
The Bail Act of 1976 [legislation.gov.uk] says otherwise. Section 6, Offence of absconding by person released on bail, says in part:
He was granted bail (which was posted by followers) in a criminal proceeding (extraditions are criminal proceedings). He was ordered to return on a specific day and failed to do so. He was granted chances to return in order that his bail would be returned to those who had donated to it, but still did not, and the bail was revoked and the money kept by the Crown. Unless Assange can prove that his failure to appear was reasonable, he's in for three months at a minimum but it could be up to 12 months, plus a possible fine.
I don't know that any country would make bail jumping not be a crime. It's intentionally evading criminal prosecution. Assange will probably never get bail again anywhere in his life.
They gave it to Roman Polanski and Michael Jackson (Score:2, Funny)
They have a proud tradition of protecting pedophiles and rapists.
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"They have a proud tradition of protecting pedophiles and rapists."
And lots of black US civil rights fighters in the sixties.
Decisions Decisions (Score:5, Insightful)
See if I can post today without all the damned errors :|
This may sound odd, but I am of the opinion Mr. Snowden would be safer staying in Russia than he would in France. The United States and their allies ( assuming they don't piss ALL of them off by getting caught spying on them ) don't have the ability to freely operate in Russia. This makes it a bit more difficult to snatch such a high priority "prize" right off the street, never to be heard from again.
There also exists the risk of future administrations in France cozying back up to the United States, putting their freedom in jeopardy once again. ( Granted, the same can happen in Russia, but is far less likely )
So, unless Russia is as bad as the Western Media likes to portray, ( unlikely, but I've never been so can't say for myself ) I would think long and hard about leaving the safety of her borders.
*Having grown up during the Cold War era, it's interesting to note how much things have changed. When US Citizens feel the need to flee to Russia ( or any non-US ally ) to escape what would most certainly be an unfair trial ( assuming you even receive one ), it has truly become a bizarre world.
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People fled to the USSR to escape at least what they perceived to be unfair trials during the Cold War. Many of them arranged to live in allied countries, but some returned when they realized just how difficult life was in the Soviet Union and their allies.
Old warrants (Score:2)
There is a 20+ year old John Doe warrant for him by the US gov't that could result in his execution. He is safe in the UK and won't be safe in France or Sweden.
The Problem of Democracy: (Score:2)
They often change their policies on a turn of an election or public opinion.
In fact, less democratic forces often embolden their followers by saying that the democratic countries will lose interest or determination and give them a victory by default. They're often right.
Absent some sort of very strong constitutional guarantee, Assange would be one election (or one cabinet meeting) from being deported.
It's unlikely that the Russians will be making up with the US any time soon even if Putin died or was replac
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Obvious error. That should be Snowden not Assange.
I must need more coffee. (As if there wasn't a time when more coffee wasn't appropriate.)
What bothers me so much about this. (Score:2)
Is not that we're all being spied on. ( Which, I should note, I think is evil and should stop)
It's that every country that's moaning about being spied upon, given the exact same resources, would do it themselves in a heartbeat.
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They should be spying on (real) terrorists and neutral/enemy countries, not on friendly/allied countries.
Re:Seriously?!?!? (Score:5, Informative)
Don't be naive.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/... [washingtonpost.com]
Countries don't have friends. They have interests (Score:5, Insightful)
They should be spying on (real) terrorists and neutral/enemy countries, not on friendly/allied countries.
Grow up. There is no such thing as a true friend among nation states. If you think France isn't spying on the US as well then you are naive and haven't read any of your history books. Countries don't have friends, they have interests. Spying between even the most ostensibly friendly of nations is a routine and commonly accepted occurrence. Countries that are friends today can easily be adversaries tomorrow and the US and France haven't had the closest of relationships.
Is it sad that this is the state of affairs in this world? Of course. But don't be blind about how the real world works.
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Yeah, and sometimes those interests are best served by making agreements with your G8 next-of-kin and remaining true to your word.
Here's a question for you. How often does your wife bug-sweep your bedroom? People don't have marriages, they have interests within sexual alliances.
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"Here's a question for you. How often does your wife bug-sweep your bedroom? People don't have marriages, they have interests within sexual alliances."
This is a poor analogy at best. Are you married? Spouses are constantly secretly keeping tabs on one another without being overt. They are eyeing what one another is doing and spending on a regular basis. And though they aren't necessarily doing it all super covertly, they aren't always open about it.
Re:Countries don't have friends. They have interes (Score:5, Insightful)
Thank you for pointing this out. Most people don't realize it.
France dropped out as a full member of NATO in 1966, ordering most non-French forces out, and didn't rejoin it until 2009. The original purpose was so that France could potentially come to a separate peace with the Warsaw Pact nations if it didn't agree with the reasons for a war with them. This didn't last long, as a secret agreement for France to rapidly re-integrate into NATO forces was signed soon after.
However, it caused a great deal of mistrust in other countries, and France has maintained interests in other countries around the world, not always for the betterment of those outside of France. It's strongly suspected of being behind the Israeli nuclear arms program, something that was originally opposed by the United States because it risked rising tensions in the Middle East where the Soviets had a strong presence in countries such as Egypt, Iraq, and Syria. France has also been caught conducting industrial espionage in numerous countries including the United States, and there's little reason to think that they've stopped there. The country has an international independence streak much longer than that of the US, and it's not likely to change anytime soon.
Nations spy on other nations, because almost every one has been assured of something and then been stabbed in the back. Reagan told Thatcher that the US had no intention of invading Grenada even as forces were moving in, and the attack began just a few hours later. I'm sure that as much as Thatcher may have forgiven Reagan later, plans were put in place to try to catch this kind of thing at an earlier stage, whether through satellites, photography from chartered aircraft, and 'tourists' who happen to be near key locations, or through traditional espionage techniques of stealing or turning people.
It's an understood game. Everyone does it, everyone tries to stop it. They get better at both sides, and the dance continues.
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Worked real well with Japan. They professed to be our allies right up until Pearl Harbor.
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you do realize the US (justifiably) goaded them into pearl harbor right? Something about an oil embargo...
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Oil and metal, but the point stands. We weren't at war with them, we weren't treating them as an enemy. Yet if we had been spying or had better spies, we might have known of their plans to attack and could have prepared for it. That's why powerful nations all spy on each other. Outward appearance can be very deceiving.
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The people who these agencies SHOULD be spying on?
Why should the NSA spy on French presidents? Exactly where in the NSA mission statement is this covered?
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Please name a non-third world country that doesn't spy on allies.
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Right, let's teach Utopia instead of reality.
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Right, let's teach Utopia instead of reality.
Let's teach both Utopia and reality.
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Vatican City? Before you claim it's not a country, the CIA apparently considers it to be one, at least in some ways, in its World Factbook. It lists the government [cia.gov] of the Holy See and lists it last in the country comparison by area [cia.gov].
Maybe Switzerland?
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Third-world countries are probably at least as likely to spy on allies, if only because allegiances to world powers shift far more rapidly, especially in Africa. As their ability to handle independence grows, the various African nations have changed their loyalties for political, economic, and ethnic reasons. Countries that were close allies once could turn on each other to the point of outright war in the space of a year, and a few years later, a new president or prime minister on either or both sides co
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Some countries are returning to the US sphere, some are trying to make their own path, and some are turning away. I think the turn toward the US may be strengthening somewhat as the Chavistas lose influence since the death of Chavez and the nightmare that Venezuela has become, but Bolivia is still charting its own course while not completely blowing off the US, and, of course, Venezuela is still cursing the US.
For all the peasant look and desire for peaceful relations with everyone that Evo Morales has, I'
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Again, you can choose to live in the real world, or you can choose not to, and be played by everyone else. Wars and other conflicts happen, it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when. Being on the wrong side of the intelligence equation means you're going to be the fly, and not the fly swatter.
Yes that is the job of the NSA (Score:5, Insightful)
Why should the NSA spy on French presidents?
Why wouldn't they? First off, nation states spy on each other. Friend or foe doesn't play into it. Any nation that has the capability to spy on another nation will use that capability. Second, friends don't always stay friends and France hasn't exactly been the closest of allies to the US. Third, France has nuclear weapons and anyone who has nuclear weapons is going to be targeted for spying to make sure they aren't up to something dangerous. Nobody thinks it is likely that France is going to do anything weird but that doesn't mean it's impossible. Finally, France has communications with the leadership of other countries, some of which are far less friendly to the US than France is. Some of these communications are likely very interesting to US intelligence services. While the NSA might not be super interested in what the French president is up to, they probably are interested in some of the parties he is talking to.
Exactly where in the NSA mission statement is this covered?
Twenty seconds on wikipedia [wikipedia.org] would have answered that question for you. This is exactly the job of the NSA, particularly for SIGNINT. You might find their mission to be troubling and I might even agree but it IS their job.
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Exactly where in the NSA mission statement is this covered?
Twenty seconds on wikipedia [wikipedia.org] would have answered that question for you. This is exactly the job of the NSA, particularly for SIGNINT. You might find their mission to be troubling and I might even agree but it IS their job.
Yeah, the job of the NSA is SIGINT. That's probably a surprise to exactly nobody here on /.
But where does it say it is allowed to monitor anybody it feels like? Note the word allowed in my sentence. What the NSA has been doing and is doing right now is not relevant, this is about legal and moral restraints.
So let me rephrase my question a little bit: Is it legal for NSA spy on French presidents? Exactly where in the NSA mission statement is this covered?
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Re:Seriously?!?!? (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, one could argue that these agencies should concentrate spying on hostile governments and terrorists, instead of heads of state of allied countries.
But no, it is important for Americas national security to spy on, say, Airbus.
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Well, one could argue that these agencies should concentrate spying on hostile governments and terrorists, instead of heads of state of allied countries.
But no, it is important for Americas national security to spy on, say, Airbus.
I suspect the NSA doesn't view it as an "either/or" situation, but rather as an "and" situation. They're big enough that they can concentrate on ALL of them. Wasn't the NSA's budget a few years ago as large as the CIA's, FBI's, and DIA's combined? People don't realize how massive the NSA actually is.
Re:Nope (Score:5, Insightful)
Well there's also the great hypocrisy that lies there like an elephant in the room. France have probably tried to do the same on all its allies... (No presumption on whether they succeeded or not, just that the fact that they tried is highly likely).
To me, the reaction of the French government shrieking like pigs is just a show for the public opinion, and maybe they'll send back the US Ambassador for good measure. But it will soon die down and no change is to be expected.
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Tl;dr, this isn't just France, this is part of how
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Never happen...the NSA will threaten to withhold future intelligence. France will back down
Probably not a big threat. USA spying on French presidents and not wanting to share nuclear test information with France, probably doesn't help in the "trust" elements of diplomacy.
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Spies neither start nor end wars. The capture of a spy won't be what starts a war. You don't have two countries start off perfectly happy with each other until one finds a spy from the other and suddenly they're sending tanks across the border. Finding a spy might be claimed as the reason for a war, but there are always other, far more significant reasons, almost always having to do with the exploitation of resources (whether mining, farming, space, or people). Even allegedly religious wars usually have
Re:Nope (Score:4, Funny)
You have obviously never played Civilization. You can even goad Gandhi into dropping nukes on you if you spy on him sufficiently.
Go play and then get back to us.
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Furthermore, France doesn't share a border with Russia, so a repeat of this kind of incident would be almost certain:
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/07... [cnn.com]
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Not for lack of trying.
Re:Nope (Score:4, Funny)
France cave-in and surrender?!?!? NEVER!
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in all seriousness, when national pride is insulted, the french are complete dicks. I could see them hosting asange and snowden and telling the US to get bent.
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If that were truly to happen, the French would chop off their president's head.
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I expect that when he shows up at the gates asking for asylum some snickering french soldiers will tell him "We've already got one!" and make further derogatory remarks about his father and elderberries.